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  1. - Top - End - #511
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    For what its worth, I can vouch for Vallejo paints as a cheaper alternative to Citadel. A lot of the shades are very, very similar to GW paints too, intentionally so I believe, so getting decent equivalents to popular GW colour schemes should be fairly easy.

    Today is the Black Library Preview Day, probably not as prestigious as the typical model/games preview but still fairly interesting none the less.

    In order of announcement:

    Mortis by John French - Book 5 of the Siege of Terra, which is about heroic clashes between Titan Legions.I honestly struggle to care about Titan novels but I know that some people are fascinated by them, so perhaps I'm not the target audience.

    Dark Imperium: Godblight by Guy Haley - The third in the trilogy wherein we finally get to the big Guilliman vs Mortarion clash. I never realised until now that Dark Imperium and Plague War were parts of an intended trilogy; frankly, I'm surprised that there's enough detail in "Mortarion appears on a planet, Guilliman goes to fight him" to last more than one book but apparently there is...

    The Swords of Calth (A Uriel Ventris Story) by Graham McNeil - Mr. Unpopular himself, Ventris, gets Primarised and fights Necrons, written by a guy who is a master storyteller BUT has a terrible habit of relying on purple prose. Think I'll give this one a miss - I have championed Ultramarines as being more than boring guys who steal glory before, but this one sounds like it's pushing the stereotype to critical levels. Followed by a limited edition miniature - Eew. Just look at that dorky bowl-cut.

    Penitent by Dan Abnett - This one makes my heart hurt. Ravenor is on my top 5 books - ALL books, not just 40k centric - but Pariah was a slog. Waiting 8 years for the sequel was probably a good choice to let us 'cool off' and forget the worst of it was probably a good idea, but at the same time, I can't say I'm aching for more of the same. I'll buy it, but more out of habit than anything.

    Alpharius: Head of the Hydra by Mike Brooks - Hard to call this one. Some of the Primarchs' novels have been excellent - I especially liked Leman Russ for a very welcome 'warts and all' depiction of a flawed character who comes to realise his mistakes, but I feel that the best part of Alpharius is in his mystique. A whole novel explaining what he's like, what he does and how he goes about it is only going to lessen the impact.

    The Gate of Bones by Andy Clarke - Indomnitus-era Custodes find a planet being attacked by the left-overs of the 13th Black Crusade and a fight ensues. Some of the Ad. Cust novels have been pretty good, but typically only the ones who are at Terra, coming to terms with their role in the new Imperium and the ones where they just wander around chopping up bad guys are a bit generic.

    Liber Xenologis by Darius Hinks - A Black Fortress novel - Neat, it's a great setting that could be mined for a wealth of stories. Pity that it's coming out months and months after it was announced that Black Fortress was being wrapped up, seems like something that would have been a nice tie-in.

    Gitslayer by Darius Hinks - Another Gotrek novel set in the AoS universe. The joke is a bit old now I'm afraid, and this is coming from someone who still has and very much enjoyed the full run of the Auld World-set novels.

    Ghazghull Thraka: Prophet of the WAAAGH by Nate Crowley - A novel from the point of view of non-humans, you say? Kind of - an Inquisitor captures Makari and asks him about where Ghazghull came from and how he rose to power. Could be good, if a bit weird.

    The End of Enlightenment by Richard Strachen - Lumineth Elves fight Undead and mope about a bit. Not one of my favourite factions admittedly, so I'm not the target audience. Probably going to be rich with "Aelves are whiny bunch of dingus'" memes, at least.

    The Book of Martyrs by Danie Ware, Alec Worley, and Phil Kelly, edited by Nick Kyme - Three authors each contributing to a story about the Sisters of Battle - by the sounds of it each wrote about a different Order and where then tied together into one novel. Sounds ambitious, and I can see where it might go horribly wrong, but at the same time I'm definitely intrigued. Again though, it feels like something that should have tied in to the launch of SoBs back in January when people were really interested in them - I feel that the magic has worn off a bit by now, and an experimental story about a B-List faction might be a turn off for a lot of the audience.

    Most of them are getting a "Limited Edition" version too, with alternate art or handsome leather-esque covers. These things are absolute bollocks - they sell out in under 10 minutes and then the rest of us plebs have to wait another 4 months for the 'normal' release. I tried to get both Ravenor and Lion El'Johnson when their limited versions were announced and getting my hands on one was less likely than buying a PS5 with a 10% off promotion.
    Last edited by Wraith; 2020-12-05 at 10:46 AM.
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  2. - Top - End - #512
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Mortis by John French - Book 5 of the Siege of Terra, which is about heroic clashes between Titan Legions.I honestly struggle to care about Titan novels but I know that some people are fascinated by them, so perhaps I'm not the target audience.
    I like Titan Novels and the Siege of Terra but like, I thought the whole point of Titandeath was about breaking Horus's titan legions so they didn't get to Terra, which I thought was neat.

    Penitent by Dan Abnett - This one makes my heart hurt. Ravenor is on my top 5 books - ALL books, not just 40k centric - but Pariah was a slog. Waiting 8 years for the sequel was probably a good choice to let us 'cool off' and forget the worst of it was probably a good idea, but at the same time, I can't say I'm aching for more of the same. I'll buy it, but more out of habit than anything.
    I'm quite looking forward to it. There were definitely issues with Pariah, but i'm sufficiently bought into the Eisenhorn/Ravenor nonilogy to hang round for a few more - part of the issue is that it was really obviously the first third of a longer story.

    Liber Xenologis by Darius Hinks - A Black Fortress novel - Neat, it's a great setting that could be mined for a wealth of stories. Pity that it's coming out months and months after it was announced that Black Fortress was being wrapped up, seems like something that would have been a nice tie-in.
    Is this a novel or a bestiary?
    Ghazghull Thraka: Prophet of the WAAAGH by Nate Crowley - A novel from the point of view of non-humans, you say? Kind of - an Inquisitor captures Makari and asks him about where Ghazghull came from and how he rose to power. Could be good, if a bit weird.
    Ooh, Nate Crowley is a good writer, this is pretty interesting.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by LeSwordfish View Post

    Is this a novel or a bestiary?
    It's an account from the IC perspective of the Rogue Trader in Blackstone Fortress, so much more bestiary than novel, though it might have some plot. I'm keen for it!
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by LeSwordfish View Post
    I like Titan Novels and the Siege of Terra but like, I thought the whole point of Titandeath was about breaking Horus's titan legions so they didn't get to Terra, which I thought was neat.
    Given that the classic Titan Legions and Space Marine games (which later evolved into Epic 40K and Epic Armageddon) originally revolved around the Heresy, it makes sense that at least some Titans made it to Terra.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Given that the classic Titan Legions and Space Marine games (which later evolved into Epic 40K and Epic Armageddon) originally revolved around the Heresy, it makes sense that at least some Titans made it to Terra.
    It does, but the basic plot of Titandeath is that essentially the entire loyalist titan contingent is deployed to one of the last worlds to fall to Horus - with the goal of mutual assured destruction in order to prevent Horus landing titans en masse on Terra, since a mass titan versus titan battle tends to leave whatever planet it takes place on uninhabitable and destroying the imperial palace underfoot is still a loss. I love that for what it says about the scale of titan conflict.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drasius View Post
    Probably not great, though I have no idea what "JoAnn Fabrics" is.
    It's an American crafts store which mostly does fabrics and sewing supplies (hence the name) but has branched out into other crafts-y stuff too. I think it's just in the USA (maybe a few locations in Canada?).

    It got some flak recently because of its response to COVID lockdown orders (I'll skip the details in the interest of staying clear of real-world politics).
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by LeSwordfish View Post
    It does, but the basic plot of Titandeath is that essentially the entire loyalist titan contingent is deployed to one of the last worlds to fall to Horus - with the goal of mutual assured destruction in order to prevent Horus landing titans en masse on Terra, since a mass titan versus titan battle tends to leave whatever planet it takes place on uninhabitable and destroying the imperial palace underfoot is still a loss. I love that for what it says about the scale of titan conflict.
    He loses, badly. Sanguinius eats an obvious trap and wastes the Imperial Titan Legions for barely anything, while Horus keeps Mortis pretty much intact AND gets daemon Titans on top.

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    I am also really out of practice with transfers, took me four tries to apply one to his shoulder.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Mortis by John French - Book 5 of the Siege of Terra, which is about heroic clashes between Titan Legions.I honestly struggle to care about Titan novels but I know that some people are fascinated by them, so perhaps I'm not the target audience.
    I find Titan Princepses interesting. Titans, however, are not interesting. A dude with really, really, really, really big gun, fights another dude with a gun the same size.

    Dark Imperium: Godblight by Guy Haley - The third in the trilogy wherein we finally get to the big Guilliman vs Mortarion clash. I never realised until now that Dark Imperium and Plague War were parts of an intended trilogy...
    D-
    Did you read them? They end on pretty big cliffhangers that it should've been blatantly obvious that there was more story coming.

    The Swords of Calth (A Uriel Ventris Story) by Graham McNeil - Mr. Unpopular himself, Ventris, gets Primarised and fights Necrons, written by a guy who is a master storyteller BUT has a terrible habit of relying on purple prose. Think I'll give this one a miss - I have championed Ultramarines as being more than boring guys who steal glory before, but this one sounds like it's pushing the stereotype to critical levels. Followed by a limited edition miniature - Eew. Just look at that dorky bowl-cut.
    Several issues:
    1. Uriel Ventris has personally saved Ultramar. What else is there left to do? His story is over. Once you crack the Tomb of Venatus (yes, him), and take his Athame blade (yes, one of those), what else is left to do? Once Honsou unleashes a daemonic horde on your home system, and you survive, your written story is more-or-less over.

    2. Taking Ventris full circle, back to his - and more importantly, Pasanius' - relationship with Necrons and how The Nightbringer is Ventris' fault (remember when Graham McNeill tied the 4th Ed. Codex to his novels, because he was a hobbyist and wanted you to read fluff) is something that should've been done well before now. However, Necrons are the visible family-friendly antagonist in 9th Ed., and I guess bringing back Graham McNeill from Riot Games (everything I've Googled says McNeill still works there)...So this feels like Black Library throwing darts at the wall, and McNeill writing something for the paycheque.

    3. You know that character you like...Well, they're exactly the same. But we said 'Rubicon Primaris' so it's different.
    Still waiting for GW/BL to kill off a major character by having them fail to cross the Rubicon. But we know that that can't happen. I would've said that GW's first opportunity would be Ragnar Blackmane. But that ship has sailed, and now my next guess is Darnath Lysander.

    4. I've already read the Damnos Incident in Fall of Damnos in 5th Ed. I read the Second Battle of Damnos in Apocalypse: War Zone Damnos back in 6th Ed. And the 9th Ed. Space Marines book even hints at the Third Battle for Damnos like this is ****ing Armageddon all over again.
    But this time it's different, because instead of Sicarius, it's Ventris...In Priarmis form! I've seen Ultramarines vs. Necrons. Twice. And more now with the Indomitus-era stuff I've seen it even more. Is it different because I've heard of Ventris before? Is it different because I've read the Adventures of Ventris up until now watching as the stakes grow higher and higher until Ventris can save no more? The only way this book is worth reading, is if it's Ventris' swan song, and he dies fighting Necrons - and specifically The Nightbringer.

    5. His model is hideous. I know all the writers at Black Library love military fiction (especially Dan Abnett). I know. I get it. I know. But the haircut is still bad, and just 'cause you made the model to match the cover art, doesn't make it a good model - or good cover art... The worst example being Rogal Dorn.

    The worst canonised models, of course being Valerian and Aleya:

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    ...I would've bought those models in a heartbeat, even back in 8th Ed. when Custodes and Sisters of Silence were terrible. Had GW made me (yes, me, personally) models based on that cover art, I would've bought them. Even though I barely bought anything in 8th Ed., even though I had no mechanical reason to buy them. I would just have them for literally no reason. Same reason why I have a few Primarchs, and same reason I have Alexis Polux.
    (In 9th Ed., I actually use Sigismund, 'cause Company/Chapter Champions are really good)

    Penitent by Dan Abnett - ...Waiting 8 years for the sequel was probably a good choice to let us 'cool off' and forget the worst of it was probably a good idea, but at the same time, I can't say I'm aching for more of the same. I'll buy it, but more out of habit than anything.
    I like you Wraith, you know I do...You're British, I'm Australian. I hope you read this in the tone that it's intended; But **** off, mate. It's got bells on.
    We didn't wait 8 years for the sequel. The 'Bequin' series was brutally cancelled and put on indefinite hiatus* because it was ****.

    The disingenuous marketing made it worse. You know as well as I do that the main character isn't Alizebeth. You know as well as I do that the main character's name is Beta. Made worse because 'Beta' has no agency, is an NPC in her own book, and is simply a tool for Eisenhorn and Ravenor to fight over. There's a reason I call it Twilight-in-40K; Whatever good things you can say about it, has nothing to do with Beta Bequin.

    *And GW being GW. That indefinite hiatus is over, now that GW needs money; It's time to pull out that dartboard again. Hey Abnett, still got that story we cancelled?

    Alpharius: Head of the Hydra by Mike Brooks - Hard to call this one. Some of the Primarchs' novels have been excellent - I especially liked Leman Russ for a very welcome 'warts and all' depiction of a flawed character who comes to realise his mistakes, but I feel that the best part of Alpharius is in his mystique. A whole novel explaining what he's like, what he does and how he goes about it is only going to lessen the impact.
    Alpharius doesn't need a book. Maybe Omegon does. But Alpharius definitely doesn't.
    The Primarchs series has been extremely hit and miss. But that's what happens when you get multiple writers.

    The Gate of Bones by Andy Clarke
    Just let Chris Wraight have Custodes. I don't trust anyone else. Otherwise, no comment.

    Liber Xenologis by Darius Hinks - A Black Fortress novel - Neat, it's a great setting that could be mined for a wealth of stories. Pity that it's coming out months and months after it was announced that Black Fortress was being wrapped up, seems like something that would have been a nice tie-in.
    Since I'm old. I have Xenology. A fantastic bestiary written by an Inquisitor who turns out to be a Necron Overlord.
    I love diaries. I love books where part of the book's format is printing 'notes' in margins. I love world-building, where the book is written by someone who actually is part of the world in which the book is written. However, in order to sell it to me, you've gotta have Janus Draik's name on the front cover. Unfortunately, the name on the front cover is Darius Hinks.

    Unfortunately, it's a novel for Blackstone Fortress, explicitly, a game which I know that GW has already cancelled. Also it seems like a novel. Not what I actually want. What I actually want, I feel, is kind of already in the Blackstone Fortress rulebooks already. But it would be nice to have Draik explain Orks and T'au. I'd also like to read more of his thoughts on Neyam Shai Murad.

    Gitslayer by Darius Hinks - Another Gotrek novel set in the AoS universe. The joke is a bit old now I'm afraid, and this is coming from someone who still has and very much enjoyed the full run of the Auld World-set novels.
    Gotrek should never have been brought back from the dead. But GW needs money and Simpson Whales will buy anything with the right name on the front.

    Gotrek fought Be'lakor, and won. There are no more challenges left.
    Grimnir says "You're right." and sends him into the Realm of Chaos to fight Daemons for eternity in His place.
    He's functionally immortal, not just with plot-armor, but the narrative actually says so, and his 'epilogue' is fighting Daemons forever. Something he couldn't really stop doing, even if he wanted to. What, you're gonna bring back Gotrek with "So I got bored fighting Daemons and now I'm back here with you guys..." Gotrek wouldn't do that, especially after being charged by a God with an unescapable duty.

    Nah that's dumb. Just bring him back. I dunno. Reasons. One day he just appears out of a Realmgate and now he's back. That's it. Gotta sell Gotrek to Simpson Whales, the narrative doesn't need to make sense.

    Ghazghull Thraka: Prophet of the WAAAGH by Nate Crowley - A novel from the point of view of non-humans, you say? Kind of - an Inquisitor captures Makari and asks him about where Ghazghull came from and how he rose to power. Could be good, if a bit weird.
    One of the authors at Black Library said 'Ork PoVs' are attempted all the time. But it doesn't work, and a lot of stories get lost in editing, because Orks are alien, and it's impossible to get the reader to relate, so 'Ork novels' get thrown in the trash because they 'can't work'. Unlike T'au and Aeldari, who are aliens we can understand, because they are human-like.

    The End of Enlightenment by Richard Strachen - Lumineth Elves fight Undead and mope about a bit. Not one of my favourite factions admittedly, so I'm not the target audience. Probably going to be rich with "Aelves are whiny bunch of dingus'" memes, at least.
    I've lost interest in Mortal Realms stuff. So no comment.

    The Book of Martyrs by Danie Ware, Alec Worley, and Phil Kelly, edited by Nick Kyme - Three authors each contributing to a story about the Sisters of Battle - by the sounds of it each wrote about a different Order and where then tied together into one novel. Sounds ambitious, and I can see where it might go horribly wrong, but at the same time I'm definitely intrigued.
    Sounds like three guys had an idea, each. But none of them really worked. However, darts at the wall, maybe if you get Nick Kyme to spot-weld them together to make a Frakenstein, you might get something that's saleable. Especially if you've got Sororitas on the cover, who are very popular in 9th Ed. because GW made them good.

    ION:
    A very, very nice hobby shop has opened right in my town, with 12 tables which means 24-player tournaments. As an FLGS they don't sell GW products at RRP, and, as a not-GW, I'm not forced into using only GW models anymore. Very happy. Very excited. Strong recommend. Will support.
    I no longer need to drive 20 minutes to my 'local' GW only to have the Blackshirt cry at me 'cause no-one's buying GW's overpriced products.

    Death Guard delay. Presumably because cardboard/paper shipped from China is delayed. Can't release until hardcopy books. Can't release until the reboxes can happen.
    Hey, hey GW...Do you wanna, just, in order to tide us over, do you wanna just give everything in the book +1 Wound? ...That's all we need. Literally.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2020-12-05 at 10:03 PM.
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  10. - Top - End - #520
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    One of the authors at Black Library said 'Ork PoVs' are attempted all the time. But it doesn't work, and a lot of stories get lost in editing, because Orks are alien, and it's impossible to get the reader to relate, so 'Ork novels' get thrown in the trash because they 'can't work'. Unlike T'au and Aeldari, who are aliens we can understand, because they are human-like.
    Ya, let's make those quotes a bit bigger because I don't see why they wouldn't work. Orks live to fight and break stuff (or loot stuff). For god's sake we've read stories from the PoV of Khornates, gotten glimpses of Old Cron psychology, been in the mind of literal madmen and they think we won't get Orks?

    Who are all about fighting? Seriously

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Sounds like three guys had an idea, each. But none of them really worked. However, darts at the wall, maybe if you get Nick Kyme to spot-weld them together to make a Frakenstein, you might get something that's saleable. Especially if you've got Sororitas on the cover, who are very popular in 9th Ed. because GW made them good.
    ... Like... I like those guys, but dear lord that's just asking for trouble.

    Why didn't they just ask James Swallow to write some more? I mean, he's the only guy to actually write SoB before (Hell, he wrote two books and an Audio book) besides whoever wrote Daemonfuge. And Daemonfuge is a very, very different story.
    Last edited by Blackhawk748; 2020-12-05 at 10:39 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk748 View Post
    Ya, let's make those quotes a bit bigger because I don't see why they wouldn't work. Orks live to fight and break stuff (or loot stuff). For god's sake we've read stories from the PoV of Khornates, gotten glimpses of Old Cron psychology, been in the mind of literal madmen and they think we won't get Orks?

    Who are all about fighting? Seriously
    As End Times: Thanquol proved, reading cutesy weird speak is fine then gets old really fast then it gets awfully tedious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk748 View Post
    Ya, let's make those quotes a bit bigger because I don't see why they wouldn't work.
    Did you read Deff Skwadron? Did you find the dialogue hard to follow? No imagine that there's no pictures or visual incentive to read the book. Also make it 300-400 pages of...That. The reason Skaven-speech works in Gotrek and Felix novels is because they aren't the main character...And when they are the main character...Jesus...LansXero made the reference before I did.

    For god's sake we've read stories from the PoV of Khornates
    Relatable Humans.

    gotten glimpses of Old Cron psychology
    Relatable Humans.

    been in the mind of literal madmen and they think we won't get Orks?
    Madmen are relatable humans. Gorkamorka says we wont understand Orks. Deff Skwadron says we wont understand.

    It will be one of those things that you think you want, until you get it.

    But, now I legitimately get to say the thing; "We can wait and see."

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    Who are all about fighting?
    Because they're not. And making them all about fighting makes them Humans. Which they shouldn't be.
    They're fungus monsters with genetic memories. When you delve into that, they're too alien.

    When they're not that, they're not Orks.

    Some things you shouldn't explain. Some times shouldn't be dived into.
    Once you explain something, once your audience can relate to and/or understand it...It's no longer alien. It's no longer scary. It's just a thing that exists, now.

    You don't show the monster.

    Why didn't they just ask James Swallow to write some more?
    My guess is that he's already writing something probably more important.
    My guess is that GW needs money, and is just finding stories that they can put out whether they're good or not.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2020-12-05 at 11:53 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Did you read Deff Skwadron? Did you find the dialogue hard to follow? No imagine that there's no pictures or visual incentive to read the book. Also make it 300-400 pages of...That. The reason Skaven-speech works in Gotrek and Felix novels is because they aren't the main character...And when they are the main character...Jesus...LansXero made the reference before I did.
    Yes and no

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Relatable Humans.
    Transhumans who lack fundamental emotions is a funny way of saying "Relatable"

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Relatable Humans.
    Multiple Millenia Old Alien is a funny way to describe a human

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Madmen are relatable humans. Gorkamorka says we wont understand Orks. Deff Skwadron says we wont understand.

    It will be one of those things that you think you want, until you get it.

    But, now I legitimately get to say the thing; "We can wait and see."

    Spoiler: I Said the Thing
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    I've read plenty of non-professional fiction that did it and I thought it was hilarious and fun. So it can be done.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Because they're not. And making them all about fighting makes them Humans. Which they shouldn't be.
    They're fungus monsters with genetic memories. When you delve into that, they're too alien.

    When they're not that, they're not Orks.

    Some things you shouldn't explain. Some times shouldn't be dived into.
    Once you explain something, once your audience can relate to and/or understand it...It's no longer alien. It's no longer scary. It's just a thing that exists, now.

    You don't show the monster.
    Orks genetic memories push them towards fighting. They have clearly identifiable cultural quirks that are easily understood by humans, really its just their specific motivation that's weird, and even then its not all that odd.

    Remember, they're a bunch of football hooligans at their core. They fight for the pure joy of it. They acquire teef to get more things to either show off or get more dakka. They targets are determined by whatever odd set of criteria their brain stacks things in.

    What you describe are Tyranids. Orks are significantly simpler to get.
    Quote Originally Posted by Guigarci View Post
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  14. - Top - End - #524
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Mortis by John French - Book 5 of the Siege of Terra, which is about heroic clashes between Titan Legions.I honestly struggle to care about Titan novels but I know that some people are fascinated by them, so perhaps I'm not the target audience.
    Titans and John French? I'm the target audience here. Dis gon be gud.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Dark Imperium: Godblight by Guy Haley - The third in the trilogy wherein we finally get to the big Guilliman vs Mortarion clash. I never realised until now that Dark Imperium and Plague War were parts of an intended trilogy; frankly, I'm surprised that there's enough detail in "Mortarion appears on a planet, Guilliman goes to fight him" to last more than one book but apparently there is...
    The first book was hot garbage and I wasn't even aware there was a second. Can't see myself picking this one up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    The Swords of Calth (A Uriel Ventris Story) by Graham McNeil - Mr. Unpopular himself, Ventris, gets Primarised and fights Necrons, written by a guy who is a master storyteller BUT has a terrible habit of relying on purple prose. Think I'll give this one a miss - I have championed Ultramarines as being more than boring guys who steal glory before, but this one sounds like it's pushing the stereotype to critical levels. Followed by a limited edition miniature - Eew. Just look at that dorky bowl-cut.
    Hard pass on the book, hopefully it's just the paintjob that makes the face look as meh as it does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Penitent by Dan Abnett - This one makes my heart hurt. Ravenor is on my top 5 books - ALL books, not just 40k centric - but Pariah was a slog. Waiting 8 years for the sequel was probably a good choice to let us 'cool off' and forget the worst of it was probably a good idea, but at the same time, I can't say I'm aching for more of the same. I'll buy it, but more out of habit than anything.
    Pass.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Alpharius: Head of the Hydra by Mike Brooks - Hard to call this one. Some of the Primarchs' novels have been excellent - I especially liked Leman Russ for a very welcome 'warts and all' depiction of a flawed character who comes to realise his mistakes, but I feel that the best part of Alpharius is in his mystique. A whole novel explaining what he's like, what he does and how he goes about it is only going to lessen the impact.
    Agreed. Hopefully it's like about half the other primarchs books that aren't the origin story that I want, 'cause this is the one case where it would ruin things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    The Gate of Bones by Andy Clarke - Indomnitus-era Custodes find a planet being attacked by the left-overs of the 13th Black Crusade and a fight ensues. Some of the Ad. Cust novels have been pretty good, but typically only the ones who are at Terra, coming to terms with their role in the new Imperium and the ones where they just wander around chopping up bad guys are a bit generic.
    Custodes? Turbo-yawn.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Liber Xenologis by Darius Hinks - A Black Fortress novel - Neat, it's a great setting that could be mined for a wealth of stories. Pity that it's coming out months and months after it was announced that Black Fortress was being wrapped up, seems like something that would have been a nice tie-in.
    Blackstone fortress is dead and not relevant, next.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Gitslayer by Darius Hinks - Another Gotrek novel set in the AoS universe. The joke is a bit old now I'm afraid, and this is coming from someone who still has and very much enjoyed the full run of the Auld World-set novels.
    AoS isn't my jam, and the only thing that might've interested me is skaven, plus I haven't read any of the Gotrek stuff, so another hard pass from me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Ghazghull Thraka: Prophet of the WAAAGH by Nate Crowley - A novel from the point of view of non-humans, you say? Kind of - an Inquisitor captures Makari and asks him about where Ghazghull came from and how he rose to power. Could be good, if a bit weird.
    I don't mind the ork-centric stuff, and I'd actually rate the ork audiodrama as one of the top 5 they've made, so this does pique my interest, but the inquisition side of things makes me cautious as the inquisition are all formulaic and same-y.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    The End of Enlightenment by Richard Strachen - Lumineth Elves fight Undead and mope about a bit. Not one of my favourite factions admittedly, so I'm not the target audience. Probably going to be rich with "Aelves are whiny bunch of dingus'" memes, at least.
    AoS, pass.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    The Book of Martyrs by Danie Ware, Alec Worley, and Phil Kelly, edited by Nick Kyme - Three authors each contributing to a story about the Sisters of Battle - by the sounds of it each wrote about a different Order and where then tied together into one novel. Sounds ambitious, and I can see where it might go horribly wrong, but at the same time I'm definitely intrigued. Again though, it feels like something that should have tied in to the launch of SoBs back in January when people were really interested in them - I feel that the magic has worn off a bit by now, and an experimental story about a B-List faction might be a turn off for a lot of the audience.
    This sounds like a trainwreck. Never heard of the first author, can't remember anything good by the second and Phil Kelly is terrible at anything but fanboi-ing about Eldar. Oddly enough, Kyme is a good editor (but a lousy author), so maybe it could've been good, but 3 seperate SoB stories all being welded together? This is going to be hot garbage, and I collected and read/listened to SoB stuff even before the reboot, so it wouldn't take much to sell me more SoB stuff, especially since I have also enjoyed the Celestine-centric stuff they've done recently. Hopefully they'll surprise me, but I'm going in with low expectations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Most of them are getting a "Limited Edition" version too, with alternate art or handsome leather-esque covers. These things are absolute bollocks - they sell out in under 10 minutes and then the rest of us plebs have to wait another 4 months for the 'normal' release. I tried to get both Ravenor and Lion El'Johnson when their limited versions were announced and getting my hands on one was less likely than buying a PS5 with a 10% off promotion.
    I'm glad they're doing limited edition stuff as the whales who pony up for that stuff make all my other purchases less expensive, and there's a few people at my local who will provide copious salt when they miss out.

  15. - Top - End - #525
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post

    I like you Wraith, you know I do...You're British, I'm Australian. I hope you read this in the tone that it's intended; But **** off, mate. It's got bells on.
    We didn't wait 8 years for the sequel. The 'Bequin' series was brutally cancelled and put on indefinite hiatus* because it was ****.

    The disingenuous marketing made it worse. You know as well as I do that the main character isn't Alizebeth. You know as well as I do that the main character's name is Beta. Made worse because 'Beta' has no agency, is an NPC in her own book, and is simply a tool for Eisenhorn and Ravenor to fight over. There's a reason I call it Twilight-in-40K; Whatever good things you can say about it, has nothing to do with Beta Bequin.

    *And GW being GW. That indefinite hiatus is over, now that GW needs money; It's time to pull out that dartboard again. Hey Abnett, still got that story we cancelled?
    I don't know, I think a lot of the flaws in that first book really are just a symptom of it being an incomplete story and I rather liked it when I read it. But. My faith in Abnett is a just a bit a lot shot after the latest round of the Gaunt's Ghosts stuff.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    D-
    Did you read them? They end on pretty big cliffhangers that it should've been blatantly obvious that there was more story coming.
    As it happens; no. Because it didn't occur to me that "Mortarion spawns in the butt-end of nowhere, Guilleman punches him the head until he goes away" needed ~900 pages of preamble before it got to the interesting bit.

    I like you Wraith, you know I do...You're British, I'm Australian. I hope you read this in the tone that it's intended; But **** off, mate. It's got bells on.
    I mean, that's a Signature Quote to be proud of if ever I've seen one.

    We didn't wait 8 years for the sequel. The 'Bequin' series was brutally cancelled and put on indefinite hiatus* because it was ****.
    Absolutely right - I didn't wait for the sequel to Pariah, I waited to find out what happens between Eisenhorn and Ravenor. The boring NPC in the middle is the tax I'm prepared to pay to see that, and I have no idea how I implied otherwise.

    Unfortunately, the name on the front cover is Darius Hinks.
    To be fair Darius Hinks wrote both of the Mephiston novelisations and the other Black Fortress novel and they were pretty good, going by the reviews and the little bit of audiobook I've gotten around to listening to. If anyone is going to make this work then it's probably going to be him, though I'm sure we can all imagine how it can be done badly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drasius
    I'm glad they're doing limited edition stuff as the whales who pony up for that stuff make all my other purchases less expensive, and there's a few people at my local who will provide copious salt when they miss out.
    My specific complaint is that the Limited Edition books go on sale, get my hopes up, launch at Stupid 'o' Clock while I'm at work and can't do anything about it, sell out, and then I have to wait another 3 months after being blue-balled. There's no need for it to take so long; put the Ltd Eds on preorder by all means, but just let me buy *a* book, damn you!
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  17. - Top - End - #527
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Did you read Deff Skwadron? Did you find the dialogue hard to follow? No imagine that there's no pictures or visual incentive to read the book. Also make it 300-400 pages of...That. The reason Skaven-speech works in Gotrek and Felix novels is because they aren't the main character...And when they are the main character...Jesus...LansXero made the reference before I did.
    .
    Yes to DS, and it was fine. Iirc, Imperial Glory had several sections told from an Ork perspective and was also okay. To Blackhawk's point, "we wanna fight" is not some alien and unrelatable drive, strip the pageantry out of any SM novel and that's what your left with.

    As to Thanquol, I never read the end times novel but very much enjoyed C.L. Werner's treatment of the character, frankly it was some of the best writing I had read from BL in years. if the end times novel was comparable then I expect I would enjoy it as well. Skaven speech is such a de minimus aspect I've never felt bothered by it in any Skaven novel.

    Anyway, I'd read an Ork perspective novel, something from the perspective of a Mekanic seeking some piece of tech to use for a later purpose could be interesting.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    My specific complaint is that the Limited Edition books go on sale, get my hopes up, launch at Stupid 'o' Clock while I'm at work and can't do anything about it, sell out, and then I have to wait another 3 months after being blue-balled. There's no need for it to take so long; put the Ltd Eds on preorder by all means, but just let me buy *a* book, damn you!
    a) No, GW has made a business out of making it as hard as possible to give them money, and they'll be damned if they'll change to make you happy now.

    b) If I have to wait an eternity for softbacks, you have to wait half an eternity for a non-limited edition print run.

    You do raise an interesting point about the Mephiston books though - were they good 'cause you like BA/meph already, or did you find them good as part of a 40k setting? I'm not a BA fan, but heard good things from those who were and picked the books up, only to find myself mostly underwhelmed. I'm not sure if I wasn't a fan 'cause I wasn't the target audience, or if you just had to be a BA fan to put aside the badness as BA get very little love and anything is better than nothing?

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Full disclosure: I haven't read either of them - I have about an hour into one of the audiobooks, so I'm not really qualified to say if they're good or bad.

    From what I have seen so far though, I think they are competently written and there's nothing about the 'voice' of the book that I dislike, so if you didn't like them it's *probably* because because you didn't like the characters? Not putting words into your mouth of course, but I've read worse and known it within a chapter or so and I don't think Mephiston is that.
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    I saw the Uriel Ventris Model... I wish I hadn't.

    Congratulations! We finally have our first named character who did not make it through the Rubicon Primaris procedure unscathed.

    What? The procedure is supposed to be "dangerous". Sometimes, in destroys your ability to ride your custom motorcycle, this time, it was someone's face/haircut.

    And no Cheesegear, Darnath Lysander already has plot armor. He's been smart not to take the offer of promotion to Chapter Master of the Imperial Fists.

    Side note, why is Ventris carrying his old Godwyn-pattern (or similar) Bolter? Is he effectively getting a Bolt Carbine that counts as Pistol 2 now or something?
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    Adeptus Astartes Guide to Crusade

    Spoiler: Agendas
    Show
    If your Crusade army includes any ADEPTUS ASTARTES units, you may choose one Adeptus Astartes Agenda, in place of a normal Agenda.

    Angels of Death. When you table your opponent, each of your ADEPTUS ASTARTES units left on the battlefield gain +3 XP.
    (Literally try and table your opponent. What an Agenda.)

    Know No Fear. Each time a unit passes a Morale test, +1 Mark. Reset the Marks to 0 if a unit fails a Morale test. At the end of the battle, a unit gains +2 XP for each mark.
    (Effectively, a unit gains +1XP each time your opponent doesn't destroy your whole unit before the turn is over. Remember, a unit only loses the XP its earned during the Battle after going OoA if you roll a '1' at the end.)

    Quest of Atonement. Choose one ADEPTUS ASTARTES unit in your army that has one or more of the following Battle Scars; Loss of Reputation, Disgraced or Mark of Shame. During the game, if this unit uses Melee attacks to destroy a CHARACTER with PR 5+, or a WARLORD, MONSTER or VEHICLE, lose one Battle Scar of your choice and gain +5 XP.
    (These Battle Scars you have to get rid of. Randomly rolling, it might be better just to delete the unit. If you actually picked those Battle Scars to have, you might need your head checked.)

    Honour the Standard. An ANCIENT within 6" of the middle of the board can take an Action [end of Move phase to end of Turn]. The Ancient becomes a special Objective Marker until he moves for any reason. CORE units gain +1 XP if they end their turn wholly within 6" of the Ancient.
    (When two or more things happen at the same time, the player whose turn it is decides the order. At the end of your Turn, the Ancient completes his Action. Then, your Core units end their turn within 6" of the Ancient, and gain XP. The Ancient can then move every turn [if needed]. As long as he ends his Move within 6" of the board, he can start the Action again at the end of the Move phase, earning XP again. Also remember that Ancients, being Characters, aren't Core, and don't give themselves XP.)

    Recover Gene-Seed. After Deployment, your opponent sets up a special Objective Marker outside their Deployment Zone (yeah, 1" outside, on the 'wrong' side of the board, GG). An APOTHECARY within 3" of this Objective Marker can perform an Action [end of Move phase to end of Turn]. Remove the special Objective Marker. The Apothecary gains +5 XP, and your Crusade Army gains +1 RP.
    (Any Agenda gets you RP is worth having. Every game. Sure, your opponent can screw you on it, but you're Space Marines; Use your Drop Pods. Starting your Crusade with an Apothecary and a Drop Pod is only 8 Power...And neither the Apothecary nor the Drop Pod is in a vacuum. Strong, easy objective that accelerates your progress.)


    Spoiler: Requisitions
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    Remember, 1 RP equals 5 PR on your Roster.

    Even if Death I Still Serve. Use when a CHARACTER gains a second or subsequent Battle Scar. Remove the Character from your Roster (including Warlord Traits and Relics that you spent RP on ). Add a DREADNOUGHT to your Roster with the same amount of XP as the Character and immediately generate new Battle Honours. This Requisition can't be used if the new unit would take your Roster over its Supply Limit. So, not only do you need the Supply to add a Dreadnought to your Roster. But, you additionally need the Supply of top of that to replace the Character you just lost.
    (Oh ****. You actually have a reason to keep around Battle Scarred Characters, instead of deleting them from your Roster immediately. Additionally, you're incentivised to choose Battle Scars instead of 'just losing a bit of XP'. That's one way to do it, GW. Good job. Unfortunately, you need the Supply to add a Dreadnought to your list, and you need the supply to replace the Character you just lost - especially if it was a Relic or Warlord Trait-holder. Trading an HQ for an Elite, is not actually an even trade, even if the Elite does get to start with a ton of XP.)

    Chapter Command. Use when a CHARACTER achieves Rank 3 or 4 (that is, at the time of Rank Up). That Character is upgraded to the Chapter Command of its type:
    CAPTAIN
    LIBRARIAN
    CHAPLAIN
    APOTHECARY
    ANCIENT
    COMPANY CHAMPION
    TECHMARINE
    This Requisition is unusable if you don't have the Supply Limit.

    Indomitus Crusade Veterans. When you add a PRIMARIS CORE Elites unit to your Roster, immediately give it +6 XP and give it a Battle Honour. (Firstborn Elites can go **** themselves, right?)

    Rubicon Primaris. Choose a CHARACTER in your Roster that does not have the PRIMARIS Keyword and roll a D6. On a '1' it's dead, Jim. Delete it from your Roster. On a 2+ delete it anyway, and replace it with a PRIMARIS CHARACTER of the same type with the same amount of XP, and same Battle Honours and Scars. If the Battle Honour can't be applied to the new datasheet (e.g; Weapon Enhancements), you can choose a new Battle Honour.
    CAPTAIN
    LIBRARIAN
    CHAPLAIN
    APOTHECARY
    ANCIENT
    TECHMARINE
    ...Not Lieutenants? **** 'em? Also...Your Firstborn are dumb and need to be replaced. Remember that this Requisition is useless if you don't have the Supply.
    (Relics that the Character had, that the new Datasheet doesn't apply for, are just lost.)


    Spoiler: Battle Honours
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    Battle Honours are gained when a unit Ranks Up.

    Battle Traits
    ADEPTUS ASTARTES units (non-Vehicles):
    - +1 BS for the unit.
    - Auto-pass Morale tests, and re-roll OoA tests.
    - Can Deny the Witch once per turn.
    - +1 WS for the unit.
    - One model in the unit gains +1 Attack and +1 Ld. This must be the Unit Champion if one exists. If the unit is a CHARACTER, gain +1 Wound, as well.
    - At the start of your Turn, the unit can choose to be treated as though a Combat Doctrine is active for your army.

    MACHINE SPIRIT units:
    - +3 WS.
    - Can fire while Engaged without penalty.
    - +2 Wounds

    TECHMARINE:
    - If this model was not destroyed during the Battle, you can ignore one failed OoA test for a VEHICLE at the end of the game.
    - 5+ Invulnerable save.
    (Good luck getting your Techmarine Battle Honours...)

    APOTHECARY:
    - If this model was not destroyed during the Battle, you can ignore one failed OoA test for a non-VEHICLE, non-BEAST unit at the end of the game.
    - When this model Fights, if any of your INFANTRY or BIKER models (not units) have been destroyed this turn (not Round), gain +3 Attacks. In order to get your models destroyed in your turn, just take an Overwatch to the face. Easy.
    (Unlike other non-combat Character models, Apothecaries can gain XP pretty quickly using their specific Agenda [that is also really useful for your entire Crusade]. You want to get 'Ignore failed OoA rolls' pretty quickly. +5 XP and +1 XP for participating in your first game, equals 6 XP. Get it quick. Remember that non-Primaris Apothecaries can ride in Drop Pods. After you've leveled up your Apothecary at least once, you can immediately use the Requisition gained from the Agenda to Rubicon Primaris your Apothecary...If that's what you want. Then delete the Drop Pod from your Roster, too.

    Honourifics
    When a CAPTAIN on your Roster gains a Battle Honour, you can instead choose one of the following Honourifics, instead. No model can have more than one Honourific, and the same Honourific can't appear more than once on your Roster.
    - DEATHWATCH and SPACE WOLVES can't take Honourifics.
    - When you upgrade a Captain to a CHAPTER MASTER, lose your Honourific if you have one. No refund.

    On the board; In your army, on the board.
    In your army; In your army, can be in Reinforcements.
    On your Roster; Just have it somewhere written down. Models that do things 'while on your Roster', even if you don't take them in games, are really, really good.

    (1st Captain) Master of the Keep. On the battlefield. Once per battle, a Battle Tactic Stratagem costs 0 CPs.

    (2nd) Master of the Watch. In your army. In a Mission where you are the Defender (i.e; Going second), gain +2 CPs. Not great. CPs just aren't that useful. You should rather go first, and pick a better Honourific, since they are mutually exclusive.

    (3rd) Master of the Arsenal. On the battlefield. Once per battle, a Wargear Stratagem costs 0 CPs.

    (4th) Master of the Fleet. On the battlefield. ou can use Orbital Bombardment twice in a battle, and, it only costs 1 CP. Actually a recommend.

    (5th) Master of the Marches. In your army. Putting units into Strategic Reserves costs half CPs.

    (6th) Master of the Rites. On your Roster. The Warlord Trait Requisition is free for your Crusade.
    (From now on, any battle in which a Character levels up, they gain a Warlord Trait for free. Remember this is Crusade. In your army, you can have as many Warlord Traits as you have Characters. Warlord Traits are not Battle Honours.)

    (7th) Chief Victualler. (Don't think about it too hard). On your Roster. The Rearm and Resupply Requisition is free for your Crusade. This is the Requisition that allows you to switch up your unit's wargear between games. This Honourific is potentially broken if you're playing in a 'League' of some kind where you have pre-selected opponents and you know what they're running.

    (8th) Lord Executioner. In your Army. In a Mission where you are the Attacker (i.e; Going first), gain +2 CPs.
    No alpha strikes in 9th Ed., or something.

    (9th) Master of Relics. On your Roster. The Relic Requisition is free. You know what to do.

    (10th) Master of Recruits / Master of Reconnaissance. On your Roster. The Fresh Recruits Requisition is free. Since this Requisition directly increases your units' Power Ratings, this is directly tied to your Supply Limit and potentially useless.

    As stated, you want to get a cadre of Captains fairly quickly - especially the ones that Rank Up once, gain an Honourific, and then spend the rest of their days on the Strike Cruiser handing out free **** to your armies. Captains are PR 5 and only cost one Requisition to get. If your Captains eventually get Battle Scars, at some point it literally doesn't matter, because one day, you'll actually stop using them in games. They'll just be taking up space on your Roster - but for a very good reason.

    Adeptus Astartes Crusade Relics

    Artificer Relics (Rank 1+)
    Halo Indomitus. Gain a 4+ Invulnerable and Ignore Mortal Wounds (4+). Solid.

    Adamantine Cuirass. +1 Toughness and Wound.

    Astartes Teleportation Transportation. Gain Teleport Strike.

    Antiquity Relics (Rank 3+)
    Paragon Blade. Turn a Power Sword into a Relic Blade-Thunder Hammer hybrid. Unfortunately you've been playing the last several months with a Character with a Power Sword. Getting to Rank 3+ ain't easy.

    Standard of Righteous Hatred. ANCIENT. Astartes Banner procs on a 2+. Brutal.

    Legendary Relics (Rank 4+)
    Vortex Bolts. Once per a Battle, a Bolt weapon makes one attack; Deal D3+3 Mortal Wounds. In addition, if a PSYKER is hit by a Vortex Bolt, they get -1 to Psychic tests for the rest of the game.

    Relic of the Primarch. Once per battle, Aura 6"; Gain +1 Attack and +1 to hit. Additionally, in any battle where the bearer is destroyed, immediately gain an Agenda, in addition to your current Agendas:
    - Place a Relic Objective on the board. At the end of the game, give +3 XP to one unit within 3". If you do not control the Objective at the end of the Battle, lose 10 VPs.



    Deathwatch Guide to Crusade

    Spoiler: Agendas
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    If your Crusade army includes any DEATHWATCH units, you may choose one Deathwatch Agenda, in place of a normal Agenda...You're still Adeptus Astartes. So you can actually choose one of those Agendas, too. Because Astartes players get everything.

    Remember, you only truly fail Agendas if your unit is destroyed and you roll a '1', and you choose to lose the XP.

    Secure Xenotech. Your opponent places a Special Objective outside their Deployment Zone. DEATHWATCH INFANTRY can perform an Action on that Objective [end of Move phase to start of your next turn]. Remove the Objective Marker from the board.
    - The unit that completes this Action gains +3 XP.
    - If the unit that completed the Objective is in your deployment zone at the end of the battle, gain +5 XP, instead. Additionally the unit gains a Relic or Bestowed in Honour and Neccessity Requisition for free, depending on whether or not they're a Character.

    Watch Eternal. At the end of the battle, if there are no enemy units within 6" of your Deployment Zone, all of your units left gain +2 XP. ...No. Don't pick.

    Suffer not the Alien. If your opponent is playing TRANIDS, AELDARI, ORKS, NECRONS, T'AU EMPIRE, your units gain +1 XP for each two units they destroy.

    Strength from Diversity. If a unit destroys a unit using a ranged attack, and destroys a unit using a melee attack, it gains +2 XP...Would be really good if it scaled - that's probably why it doesn't.

    Xenopsyker Assault. If your opponent has Tyranid, Aeldari or Ork PSYKERS:
    - A unit gains +1 XP each time it Denies the Witch
    - A unit gains +2 XP each time it destroys a xeno Psyker.


    Spoiler: Requisitions
    Show
    Deathwatch gets pretty sad, since it takes 2 RP to get a minimum-sized unit of Deathwatch Veterans, since they're PR 9. Remember Kill Team Cassius is PR 3...For reasons.

    Bestowed in Honour and Necessity. When you add a DEATHWATCH unit to your Roster, or, when one Ranks Up. You may use the Sanction of the Black Vault Stratagem.

    Kill Team Specialism. When a KILL TEAM unit gains Rank 2 or higher, give it a Kill Team Specialism. Increase its Power Rating accordingly. Hope your Supply Limit is available.

    Expiation in Vigil. When a DEATHWATCH CORE unit is added to your Roster, choose a model in the unit that isn't a 'Sergeant'. The model becomes a Black Shield. Its WS is changed to 2+, and it gains a Wound and an Attack. When using the Atonement Through Honour Stratagem, it counts as a Black Shield.

    Rearm, Reform, Redeploy. Choose a KILL TEAM in your Roster. You may reconfigure the wargear of the unit. Additionally, you can remove any number of models from the unit, but, you must replace the model with any other legal model for the Kill Team.
    (i.e; This Requisition is both Rearm and Resupply, and weird version of Fresh Recruits in one, for 1 RP)


    Spoiler: Battle Honours
    Show
    Battle Honours are gained when a unit Ranks Up.

    Battle Traits

    WATCH MASTERS and CAPTAINS:
    - At the start of your turn, choose a friendly Deathwatch unit within 6". That unit counts as being within this model's Auras for the rest of turn. I heard that there are some people in the world still claiming that Beacon Angelis isn't 'that' broken.
    - Improve the AP of all attacks by a further -1.

    CHAPLAINS:
    - If this model is within 12" of TRANIDS, AELDARI, ORKS, NECRONS or T'AU EMPIRE units, it is automatically Inspiring.
    - Aura 12"; Models use the Chaplain's Leadership.

    LIBRARIANS:
    - Replace Smite with a Power from the Xenopurge Discipline. That's certainly something.
    - Re-roll Deny the Witch once per phase.

    DEATHWATCH units (non-Vehicles):
    - Brotherhood of Veterans costs 0 CPs. That's game.
    - If the unit is Engaged with TRANIDS, AELDARI, ORKS, NECRONS or T'AU EMPIRE units, Shock Assault is always active.
    - When this Trait is chosen, choose a Xenos Faction. This unit gains +1 to hit against that Faction. (Remember, the Astartes Trait changes your BS, it is not a modifier. A Deathwatch unit can be WS/BS2+, with +1 to hit).
    - Special-Issue Loadout costs 0 CPs.
    - The unit is always Stationary for the purposes of Bolter Discpline.
    - The unit gains Objective Secured while it's within your opponent's Deployment Zone. If it already has this ability, each model counts as two models.

    Masters of the Specialisms
    - A CAPTAIN may only ever have one Master Specialism. No two Captains in your Roster can have the same Specialism.
    - A WATCH MASTER can have as many Master Specialisms as he likes, and don't prevent other Watch Masters from having the same Specialisms.

    The Character gains the Specialism at no extra cost (re-roll 1s to wound vs. a Battlefield Role; Re-roll all to wounds if it's the same role that you selected for Xenos Hunters).

    In addition, if a Master Specialism model was part of your army, at the end of the battle when you award Marked for Greatness (+3 XP to a unit of your choice) award extra XP if you pick a DEATHWATCH CORE unit based on whether or not they did what they were supposed to:

    Master Venator. A DEATHWATCH CORE unit that's MfG'd at the end of the battle gains +5 XP if destroyed a Fast Attack or Flier unit.

    Master Malleus. A DEATHWATCH CORE unit that's MfG'd at the end of the battle gains +5 XP if destroyed a Heavy Support or Dedicated Transport unit, or +6 XP if it destroyed a Lord of War.

    Master Dominatus. Elites. +5 XP.

    Master Aquila. If it destroyed any unit at all. +4 XP

    Master Furor. Troops. +5 XP.

    Master Purgatus. HQ. +5 XP.

    Watch Captain Artemis
    If Watch Captain Artemis is part of your Crusade Force; He gains the Furor Specialism (i.e; vs. Troops) at no extra cost. He is not a Master Furor, that's a different set of nouns.

    Battle Scars
    Instead of rolling randomly, you may choose the following for INFANTRY or BIKERS (excluding Characters).

    Bring Not Shame to Your Chapter. During the battle, select this Battle Scar if the unit gained no more than 1 XP during the game (the XP it got for participating, and then died, and then rolled a '1'):
    - In the Shooting phase, roll a '1', the unit can only target the closest unit. In the Charge phase, roll a '1', the unit can only Charge the closest unit.
    - The unit is selectable for Atonement Through Honour, even if it doesn't have a Black Shield. If it does have a Black Shield, the Stratagem costs 0 CPs.

    A Brotherhood in Turmoil. You can only select this Battle Scar if you lost the battle:
    - All models gain +1 Strength.
    - The unit adds +1 to Advance and Charge rolls.
    - The unit counts as having Disgraced and Mark of Shame (but doesn't actually, so only has -1 Crusade Point, instead of -3).
    - Stratagems no longer affect this unit.
    - The unit is no longer affected by Auras.

    Xenophobic Furore: If the unit was destroyed by a TRANIDS, AELDARI, ORKS, NECRONS or T'AU EMPIRE unit, make a note of it. While there are any enemy Faction units on the battlefield:
    - Each model gains +1 Attack.
    - The unit can't perform Actions.
    - The unit can never control nor contest Objectives.

    Deathwatch can get Battle Scars that give benefits!? Sucks to be other Factions, I guess.

    Special-Issue Equipment
    A model may have more than one.
    Your Roster can't include the same one twice.

    Special Issue Wargear:
    - Gain SMOKESCREEN Keyword.
    - Gain MELTA BOMBS Keyword.
    - Gain SHOCK GRENADES Keyword.
    - Ignore Cover if the target is within 18".
    - Gain Teleport Strike.
    - Auspex Scan costs 1 CP and its range is 18", instead of 12". HOLY ****.

    Special-Issue Ammunition: These are additional Ammo Types, that can be selected when the unit fires weapons with the Special-Issue Ammunition rule (so...S4, AP- ...Lame):
    - NECRON models can't make Reanimation Protocol rolls.
    - DAEMON and PSYKER models reduce their Invulnerable save to an unmodifiable 6+.
    - -6" range, but wound BEHICLES on an unmodified 4+.
    - Change the weapon's Type to Assault D3, and give it Blast.
    - Gain +1 to hit, and an additional -1 AP. This is cumulative with Mission Tactics (Combat Doctrines)
    - Ignore 'Ignore Wounds'.

    Crusade Relics

    Artificer Relic (Rank 1+)
    The Arachnosavant's Illuminator. Choose a weapon with the Special-Issue Ammunition ability. Every time it hits a target, deal a Mortal Wound and end the attack.
    Well, that's one way to make a Watch Master really, really strong.

    Antiquity Relic (Rank 3+)
    Mag-Pulse Discharger. In each of your opponent's Charge phases, select an enemy unit within 12". That unit gains -2 to Charge.
    Captain in Phobos Armour. Omni-Scrabler. Game.

    Legendary Relic (Rank 4+)
    The Watcher's Veil. Aura 6"; DEATHWATCH CORE and CHARACTER units can't be targeted by ranged attacks if the firer is 30+" away. Additionally, ranged attacks have -1 to hit.
    Brutally strong. Thankfully, Rank 4 is a long, long, long way away.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2020-12-07 at 07:24 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Madmen are relatable humans. Gorkamorka says we wont understand Orks. Deff Skwadron says we wont understand.

    It will be one of those things that you think you want, until you get it.

    But, now I legitimately get to say the thing; "We can wait and see."
    Like every 40k player I also imagine I'd be a great 40k writer. :D


    One the weird thoughts rattling around in my head is (part of) a story where some Muhreen Scouts infiltrate and listen to an Ork strategy conversation for a bit, stereotypical grunting, waaghing, fist pounding etc etc, savage brutes make bad plans!. And then we get to hear it from the Ork side where it's perfectly understandable and sound military logik to make any IG or SM command conference proud. Just provided you came with an Ork mind to it.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by snowblizz View Post
    Like every 40k player I also imagine I'd be a great 40k writer. :D


    One the weird thoughts rattling around in my head is (part of) a story where some Muhreen Scouts infiltrate and listen to an Ork strategy conversation for a bit, stereotypical grunting, waaghing, fist pounding etc etc, savage brutes make bad plans!. And then we get to hear it from the Ork side where it's perfectly understandable and sound military logik to make any IG or SM command conference proud. Just provided you came with an Ork mind to it.
    Been done:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0vDQWMJNbE

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    After having played through a failed Crusade 'campaign', where it was immediately apparent that winners win, and losers lose, and the thing fizzled out in less than a month, and going through a few Supplements, and realising how hard getting to Rank 3 or 4 actually is, I've come to a realisation:

    Start. Playing. Crusade. Now.

    Don't wait for your Codex. By the time your Codex comes out Space Marine players have been playing for ages. Remember the only rubber band mechanic in Crusade is extra CPs. CPs are not the same as your opponent's ability to tailor. CPs are not the same as immensely powerful upgrades on your opponent's units that don't even increase their Power Rating or limit Supply...Limit.

    You are falling behind. Right now.

    "But I'm only playing an isolated campaign with my friends, and I have no intention of playing someone outside of my immediate friend circle, and we're all waiting until Crusade is good for all of us." Then you are not doing what GW told you to do. You are not playing by the rules. You are making your own rules. Fair play to you. But you are not playing by the rules. Crusade isn't good because you changed how it works and how it's meant to be played. Oberoni says so.

    "But COVID." ...Then Crusade was dead on arrival, and GW pushed through it anyway, business as normal. Wasting page space and zero-sum development resources (i.e; Time and Money, things that now can't be spent on anything else, like giving Heretic Astartes a one-page .pdf that lists which units get +1 Wound).

    Crusade is a format designed to be played. Not whenever you feel like it. But as often as possible. It rewards spamming games - even losing games, it doesn't matter. That means that people who get their Codecies earlier, will have better Crusade Rosters, and people who spam games - even without a Codex - are better off.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    After having played through a failed Crusade 'campaign', (...)], I've come to a realisation:

    (...)Crusade was dead on arrival, and GW pushed through it anyway
    Welcome to 4 months ago, glad you could finally make it, but remember, its in the Core Book so that makes it all better.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    Welcome to 4 months ago, glad you could finally make it, but remember, its in the Core Book so that makes it all better.
    No, I knew it was bad.
    What I didn't know was how bad. Like, literally-unplayable-as-written, bad.

    It's not like Blood Bowl at all. Blood Bowl gives points as a rubber band mechanic. So it stays mostly fair...Up to a point.

    It's more like Kill Team:
    You have fundamental solid mechanics that work in the short term. Playing Combat Patrols of 25 PR with 50 PR Rosters. But within the space of...Two...Games...Your opponent has a 100 PR Roster, a few Rank 1 units, and you're stuck with a 65 PR Roster, and you're still playing 25 PR Combat Patrols 'cause it's still the first month of the campaign.

    Your Kill Team is 100 Points. Sure. Fine. Could use some work.
    Kill Team + Elites is 125 Points. This works great! Let's play all the time.
    Kill Team + Commanders is 200 Points. This doesn't work at all and the Commanders are too strong and who even designed this...
    Kill Team + Commanders + Elites is 225 Points. GAH. ****. No. STOP. The tightly run efficiency of a small game doesn't work when you're trying to play it like a large game. The rules weren't designed for this...Nooo....

    Your Crusade is meant to grow, and gain resources indefinitely. That...Can't work.

    Crusade, is a way to incentivise you to buy models:
    "Well, I increase my Roster by PR 10, since that's all I really want to use my RP on...Oh wait, in order to increase my Roster by 10, I need something to fill it with."

    Crusade is not balanced.
    Crusade is not fair.
    But, the way Crusade sells you models? ...On point.

    It reminds of [insert video game].
    There are many, many, many problems and bugs. Some of which make the game unplayable.
    [Insert game company] fixes in the in-game microtransactions, first.

    Walking animation broken. Fix microtransactions.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    No, I knew it was bad.
    What I didn't know was how bad. Like, literally-unplayable-as-written, bad.
    Lies. We did. The whole AL-like 'play your crusade then take your boosted army wherever you want' was never going to work, both due to honor system but also rampant power creep. Anyone who has ever played a narrative campaign knows that snowball is real and no amount of rubberbanding will solve it. Also, the moment you read Wins = RP = Bigger Roster that pretty much should've been the last nail in the coffin.

    Your Crusade is meant to grow, and gain resources indefinitely. That...Can't work.
    Not only that, attrition (the risk you take for playing more games) is non-existent and even if you do get screwed on the roll, just swap in whatever you want for free whenever you want. The system itself is a mess, even before the power creep and snowball

    Crusade, is a way to incentivise you to buy models:
    No it isnt, its a failed system that people will a. heavily homebrew into basically the same sort of narrative leagues we always had, but with 'official' tables for stuff or b. ignore completely.

    Crusade is not balanced.
    Crusade is not fair.
    But, the way Crusade sells you models? ...On point.
    Cant buy models for something nobody wants to play with you. Or well, you can, but whales are gonna whale regardless. How do you think 30k sales look like?

    The whole concept of 'forging a narrative' with no context and no balancing mechanisms is flawed. Now, with the following supplements (first beyond the veil and upcoming the DG vs AdMech one) we will see even more power creep and patches on top of a broken concept. That wont be enough and will get slowly sidelined.

    So welcome to knowing what was possible to know on first read of the rulebook, as in, Indomitus release day.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    but also rampant power creep.
    I didn't realise how utterly blatant it was until I saw the stuff in the Codecies. I know. The stuff in the Space Marines' and Necrons Codex isn't much to go on...But it's enough. This is where you're going to go.

    See, I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum, and, I fully believe that 'there's no downside to being negative'.
    When I say "Wait and see.", I'm expecting things to get worse, not better, as the things I don't like, are what Crusade is about. The more GW doubles down on Crusade, the more they'll be doubling down on exactly what I don't like.

    Wins = RP = Roster is a big problem.

    But it's more than that. Because your Roster is zero-sum. You have to remove something, in order to put something in.
    You bought an Invictor Warsuit. Great! That's an amazing unit. You can't it, though, unless you put something on your shelf.

    This is part of why 'Escalation Leagues' fail. Because someone decides that you have to use every part of your army, at all points levels. The units you use at the start, are the units you're stuck with. What works in 25 PR, has to also work at 150 PR...Because that makes sense.

    You don't build your army to play Crusade.
    You play Crusade to build your army. There's no point buying new models, unless you've got the RP, and you used that RP to pick up Supply Limit. And picking up RP is tied to winning.

    Winning is tied to...Everything.

    See, earlier I wrote out what Crusade is for people who don't quite understand it:
    - Your Roster (Power max.)
    - RP
    - CP
    - XP

    I don't see 'Fun Points' there. What I see, are categories that accelerate my progress, and the game encourages me to build my army to accelerate that progress.

    Winning games = RP.
    Achieving Agendas = XP.

    But agendas are where the real RP should be...By which I mean role-playing. But it's not. It's a copy-paste job of the Secondary Objectives from the main game. And the Secondary Objectives from the main game...Well, I don't need to tell you, but killing stuff is the easiest to do, because that's what 'you're doing anyway. The 'good' Secondaries that people pick, are only good because it turns out that they're actually easier, and more rewarding, than doing what you were doing anyway.

    But the point is, in Crusade, you're rewarded even more for destroying your opponent. Because no matter what game you play, no matter what Mission. XP (that is, your units' progression) is always derived from Kill Points. In addition to Agendas, your units get XP every time they destroy an enemy unit. How many XP for holding an Objective for three turns straight? ...That's right. None! How much XP does your clutch roll with CP re-roll into your opponent rolling a '2' for their Save get you? If you guessed 'none at all', you'd be right! Okay, I lied. You get 1 XP because you destroyed an enemy unit.

    The whole Crusade format, is based around destroying your opponents models for XP. Destroying your opponent's models makes you more likely to win the game (remember, Agendas don't award Victory Points, there is only one way to win the game) in the end. More wins, equals more Requisition, means more everything.

    And don't even get me started on how much Requisition Astartes players save by having three Rank 1 Captains on their Roster. That's so much RP being used to float their Roster now that it isn't being used on 'stuff', because they've made 'stuff' free.

    "Yeah, but it's not cool to have three Captains in Reserve doing nothing."
    It literally is, though! That's why they're called Reserve Companies, with Reserve Captains. They don't do anything, until such time as they're called upon to do so. Or until one of my 'real' Characters that I use every game gets the wrong Battle Scar, and then I have to delete them and start putting a Reserve Captain in my army to make my army Battle-Forged.

    Also, the moment you read Wins = RP = Bigger Roster that pretty much should've been the last nail in the coffin.
    I figure there was some way around it. But Requisition Points are tied directly into how Crusade works, and how you buy upgrades.

    I figured there was maybe some way you could make an Escalation Campaign where you don't use RP to increase Supply. Supply is just increased for you at regular intervals - how people normally do it. But Requsition does other things, too, and if you weren't spending it on Supply, you'd be buying infinity Warlord Traits and infinity Relics. Which is also part of the game. Isn't it weird that a Chapter only uses one Relic at a time? Surely they'd use more when needs must, right? ...You're right! Use all of them! Why is it that only my Warlord gets a Warlord Trait? Surely other people are intelligent, too. After all, this is a game about Heroes, doing Hero-things. You're right! Use all the Warlord Traits. RP is tied to the foundation of the game as a balancing mechanic. You want Warlord Traits and Relics and cool ****? RP. You want more units and more flexibility when it comes to your opponents? RP. RP is part of the game. I don't know how you take it out without ruining something else.

    Not only that, attrition (the risk you take for playing more games) is non-existent and even if you do get screwed on the roll, just swap in whatever you want for free whenever you want.
    Hence why I said that if you want to get into Crusade, you shouldn't be waiting, even if you don't have a Codex. If you've got people around you willing to play Crusade games, you should be playing Crusade games.

    The system itself is a mess, even before the power creep and snowball
    Like I said, the system incentivises winning - and destroying your opponent's models - more than the regular game:

    If I win a game - like I did on the weekend - I shake my opponent's hand, good game, and move onto the next game. No harm, no foul. Unironically, "It's just a game." We'll play another one next week or the week after. Want to try different lists?

    If I win a Crusade game - like I did with my Deathwatch - I shake my opponent's hand, I laugh at them while I roll Battle Honours and they roll Battle Scars, and then I get to add a silver bullet to my Roster for my next opponent. My opponent wont play me next week or the week after because he knows that my army is now even better than it was before, and his stays more or less the same and he can't really change it without consequences, and because he's got Battle Scars, he either deletes his units and starts fresh, or keeps a dud unit. Whilst his next opponent, doesn't have that.

    The whole concept of 'forging a narrative' with no context and no balancing mechanisms is flawed.
    There is a balancing mechanism. If my Devastators can stay in Devastator Doctrine the entire game like it was the end of 8th Ed., you get a Command Point. But only if you haven't upgraded any of your units. Because an upgrade is equivalent to every other upgrade. GW designed it that way.

    So welcome to knowing what was possible to know on first read of the rulebook, as in, Indomitus release day.
    There's a difference between knowing that something will be bad, and knowing that something is bad.

    I can firmly move myself from the former, to the latter. At least knowing I tried.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    I can firmly move myself from the former, to the latter. At least knowing I tried.
    And you're still only at the surface. One of the easiest and best sources of XP is... existing. You award 3 for no particular reason at game's end. So if you go deathstar + support you rank up super fast. Its best this way so you can tailor xp-less units away to tailor game to game, no RP needed because you dont care about rankless units, any one is as good as any other. Remember this is Power Level so wargear is free, take every special pistol and weapon you can into a poorly costed unit and wreck hell. Then cherrypicking upgrades you can have a brick of a unit thats stupidly unfair to go against, surrounded by all the specialized support cherrypicking your roster can provide. Since its only the one unit thats being boosted you dont even give out much crusade points, or put battlescars on pointless junk like ancients or scouts only to screw your opponent out of any 'balancing' CPs. Hell you can even pile up scars into stuff that just concealed-positions into place that makes your oponent give you bonus CP, blinged-out deathstar and all. :D

    You're being terribly mild because you assume there wont be anyone assholish enough to go and break the system, but why would you? Thats like my group expecting that Chaos characters wont just drop a flood of daemons whenever they got cornered. Yes, my build was a jerk move but that was the extreme end of it; by design the option is open even if you invest nothing at all into summoning. Make your daemon engine list as usual, discolord can summon soulgrinders if he wants. Make your havoc and oblits gunline, chaos lord can drop pinks to grab objectives. You just expect them not to... for reasons unknown :s.

    None of it deals with the original premise though: carry your crusade army around, play other people's crusade armies, fun clashing narratives! THAT game simply does. not. exist.

    As for 'well you're both filthy powergamers, I take fluffy choices for fluff': congrats, you could do that at whatever edition. Thats not the system you bought, thats just your own made up version that is similar to it.

  30. - Top - End - #540
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Daemon

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Rules question, from someone with only the basic rules. If you have an ability that grants rerolls. Say "Reroll 1s to hit". You roll a 1, reroll it. Get a 1. Does the ability trigger again? Or is it "reroll once, take that roll".

    Does it vary by source of the reroll (ie do specific abilities differ)? What you're rolling for (charge vs hit vs save vs...)?

    The basic rules didn't say, to the best of my reading.
    Dawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
    Rogue Equivalent Damage calculator, now prettier and more configurable!
    5e Monster Data Sheet--vital statistics for all 693 MM, Volo's, and now MToF monsters: Updated!
    NIH system 5e fork, very much WIP. Base github repo.
    NIH System PDF Up to date main-branch build version.

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