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  1. - Top - End - #661
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    So, if you're a new player, who already can't pick good Secondaries because you don't know anything, you can't deploy correctly 'cause you don't know what you're doing, and you barely even understand what half your Stratagems do...And on top of that, you accidentally picked a Faction that sucks? How can you get better at the game when nothing you do matters?
    How did any of us? Reading. Or asking other players with more experience than you. Hopefully asking your LGS as they want you to not suck and quit (GW blackshirts might like fattening whales but most normal retailers can see that milking a cash cow dry is shortsighted). You can pick good secondaries hopefully because you realize how little you achieve when you choose the wrong ones then move on. You play against yourself first, as in, you need to get some situational awareness and game instincts from actual experience to shift chaff from actual good stuff. If you can figure it all out from theorycrafting, mathhammer and heavy reading, cool, but most people will need a few actual games to wrap their heads around all the moving parts of the system.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    How did any of us? Reading. Or asking other players with more experience than you. Hopefully asking your LGS as they want you to not suck and quit (GW blackshirts might like fattening whales but most normal retailers can see that milking a cash cow dry is shortsighted). You can pick good secondaries hopefully because you realize how little you achieve when you choose the wrong ones then move on.
    You can't pick Assassinate if you can't destroy Characters.
    You can't pick Bring it Down if you can't destroy Vehicles.
    And of course there's the probably-should've-seen-it-coming shock of the edition; You can't score Thin Their Ranks if you don't bring enough bullets.

    Then there's possibly the 'best' Secondary in the game; Engage on All Fronts. EoAF requires a specific game plan, which can only be done with specific units in mind when you build your army. Raise the Banners High, equally, turned out to be a surprisingly good Secondary when you don't know what else to pick. But, you can't do RtBH if you accidentally take too many non-Infantry units, or you take a bunch of Death Company units that can't perform Actions.

    Secondaries are still tied to your model selection. Yes, you can theoretically tailor your Secondaries to your opponent. But with the Ork meta-buster coming out swinging, we know that that's not entirely true. You can pick Thin Their Ranks all you want. But it doesn't mean **** unless your army is set up for it.

    Reading tells us what to buy and what to do and how to play. GW's business model relies on you not doing that. GW relies on impulse purchases, hype trains, and imagery.

    If you can figure it all out from theorycrafting, mathhammer and heavy reading, cool, but most people will need a few actual games to wrap their heads around all the moving parts of the system.
    But with proxies banned in many metas, and especially inside actual GW stores, trudging through the trenches requires spending money, learning that you wasted your money, and then spending even more money to buy the units you should've bought in the first place. Which is a very problematic business model.
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  3. - Top - End - #663
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Guess it's time for me to finally paint my Basilisks, then. I'm also eyeing the unassembled heavy mortars I've got and the S6, AP-1, D2 weapon stat they've got in the IA Compendium, though 70 points a pop seems a little steep.
    Last edited by Renegade Paladin; 2020-12-13 at 10:41 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    But with proxies banned in many metas, and especially inside actual GW stores, trudging through the trenches requires spending money, learning that you wasted your money, and then spending even more money to buy the units you should've bought in the first place. Which is a very problematic business model.
    With all the chest thumping about being able to play down 'because I have x000 points of several factions' going around on many discussion circles, one would think lending models would be more common. Hey, there is an idea: you can play with a list I want, dont have to spend a dime, 'cause Im gonna hand it to you. Of course, nobody wants their stuff wrecked by random strangers, but with a bit of community building and control it can be done.

  5. - Top - End - #665
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    With all the chest thumping about being able to play down 'because I have x000 points of several factions' going around on many discussion circles, one would think lending models would be more common. Hey, there is an idea: you can play with a list I want, dont have to spend a dime, 'cause Im gonna hand it to you. Of course, nobody wants their stuff wrecked by random strangers, but with a bit of community building and control it can be done.
    I like this idea. Heck, you could even have events where the participants pool their collections and build lists based on event themes. Sort of a "draft" environment.
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  6. - Top - End - #666
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    With all the chest thumping about being able to play down 'because I have x000 points of several factions' going around on many discussion circles, one would think lending models would be more common. Hey, there is an idea: you can play with a list I want, dont have to spend a dime, 'cause Im gonna hand it to you. Of course, nobody wants their stuff wrecked by random strangers, but with a bit of community building and control it can be done.
    I've thought about that a couple of times. But it seems impractical unless you own the shop and can store all your models there.

    I have run demo games at conventions using my models though. So that's kinda close.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post

    Space Marines aren't OP. You beat them easily by having S5, AP-1 or -2, 2 Damage weapons.
    Necrons have that aplenty. Pratorians, Destroyers, and Triarch Stalkers are all good sources of S5+ AP-1+ and D3 to 2 damage weaponry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Qui Ho Tep View Post
    SO ANYWAY. I'm jumping on the bandwagon and starting a Necron army. I am going for Winning Games rather than Things I Like, and would appreciate some guidance.

    Units that look good to me after a few read-throughs (in no particular order): Technomancers, Chronomancers, Night Scythes, Triarch Praetorians, Hexmarks, Skorpekh Destroyers. Thinking of picking up a Command Barge to take the Voltaic Staff relic. I expect the core of my army will be two or three units of 20 Warriors.

    There's a lot of good options for dynastic codes, I was thinking of running Pitiless Hunters (double rapid fire if you remained stationary) and Isolationists (+1 Strength to rapid fire within 12"). Seems like a good way to take advantage of big blobs of warriors.

    Here's what I'm thinking:

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    Command Barge - Voltaic Staff, WL (Thrall of the Silent King)
    Technomancer - Phylactery Hive, Canoptek Cloak, Dynastic Heirlooms (Nanoscarab Casket)
    Royal Warden - Rarified Nobility (Immortal Pride)

    Troops
    20 x Warriors, Gauss Flayers
    20 x Warriors, Gauss Flayers
    10 x Immortals, Gauss Blaster

    Elites
    3 x Skorpekh Destroyers
    3 x Skorpekh Destroyers, Plasmacyte
    Shard of the Void Dragon, Transdimensional Thunderbolt

    Heavy Support
    Lokhust Destroyers x 2
    Heavy Destroyer x 1, Enmitic Exterminator

    Flyer
    Night Scythe


    Tips and critiques are both solicited and welcome.
    I'm not 100% the best at giving advice for Necrons, so it's more a couple questions I would want answered.

    1. How are the Skorpekh Destroyers getting into combat? I know they can't go in the Nightscythe and I'm pretty sure there is nothing that would let them advance and charge.
    2. What is the Night Scythe transporting? If you aren't planning on using it as a transport, you should likely drop it.
    3. If you are running blobs of Warriors, you should look at grabbing a Res Orb for your Catacomb Command Barge. Speaking of, does it have a Tesla or Gauss Cannon?
    4. I don't like the Enmitic Exterminator for your list. The Warriors, Immortals, and Night Scythe are all anti-infantry, and you don't have much anti-tank outside the Shard of the Void Dragon. I'd swap that out for the anti-tank version.
    Last edited by Forum Explorer; 2020-12-14 at 01:50 AM.
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  7. - Top - End - #667
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    one would think lending models would be more common.
    I have never lent anyone models in my entire life. Even letting people 'look' at my models by picking them up off the table has led to several of my models being broken.
    No.
    No thank you.
    I'm good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Necrons have that aplenty. Pratorians, Destroyers, and Triarch Stalkers are all good sources of S5+ AP-1+ and D3 to 2 damage weaponry.
    As I've driven into the ground by now, the biggest problem in the meta right now is Custodes. S6+, 3-Damage weapons are lot harder (read; cost more points) to come by.


    ION: Blood Angels Secondaries

    Purge. Choose one your Characters. Your opponent chooses one of theirs.
    - +5VPs if you destroy your opponent's Character. (It's already almost as good as Slay the Warlord)
    - +5VPs if you destroy your opponent's Character, using Melee attacks (Say hello to my Death Company!)
    - +5VPs if you destroy your opponent's Character, using Melee attacks, using the Character you chose. (I thought we were supposed to discourage Smash Captains? No? Okay... )
    ...You're Blood Angels. That's a guaranteed 10 VPs, if not 15 VPs. The only way this isn't the easiest Secondary I've ever seen, is if your opponent selects a Psyker model for their Character, then deliberately tries to shoot for Perils of the Warp and explodes themselves, which only gets you 5 VPs. Compared to other Purge Objectives...Compared to any Objective, you literally build a decent portion of your army around this Secondary, take it every time for a guaranteed 10, at least. This is as good as Titan Slayers, except every single game you're up against a 'Titan'. **** me dead. At least Deathwatch have to try and kill every Xenos unit on the board to max out their Objective. Maxing out this Objective requires destroying one model.

    No Mercy. Score 3 VPs at the end of your Turn if a DEATH COMPANY unit destroyed an enemy unit that turn. Doesn't scale with diminishing returns. It doesn't matter how many units your multiple Death Company units destroy, you still only get 3, that turn. In later turns, you may not even have any Death Company left on the board to score points with. As far as No Mercy Objectives goes...It's fine. But also if you can only pick one Blood Angels Secondary, you pick the easy 10. I would find it difficult to score more than 9 off of this Objective. If only because I assume that my opponent will see Death Company as the scariest units in my army and target them down.

    Battlefield Supremacy. Score 4 VPs if there are more friendly Blood Angels units in your opponent's DZ, than there are enemy units, in your DZ. This can be very swingy, depending on your opponent. But remember that you'll have to achieve this Objective three times before it becomes better/easier than simply destroying one Character in Melee, of your opponent's choice at any time during the game. You might pick this Objective if you're trying to be nice to your opponent, but still want to play very aggressively and hang out in their DZ.
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    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2020-12-14 at 02:27 AM.
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  8. - Top - End - #668
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    I have never lent anyone models in my entire life. Even letting people 'look' at my models by picking them up off the table has led to several of my models being broken.
    No.
    No thank you.
    I'm good.
    This. A million times. I've done it. Sometimes. But between the aggravation of worrying about models and the bother of lugging aroud extras just can't be bothered to anymore.

    When ever we did demogames either it was two of us playing with own models but noone else invovelved or we had some disposable" minis specifically for this purpose.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    My group managed to put together a covid-safe apocalypse game over the weekend, and one of the rules was that you absolutely could not offer to lend models to anyone else, so letting other people borrow things is apparently a common thing around here. Of course, the group is pretty close-knit and we all respect each other and trust each other not to break things, so it really all depends on how much you trust the person you're playing with.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    I'm not 100% the best at giving advice for Necrons, so it's more a couple questions I would want answered.

    1. How are the Skorpekh Destroyers getting into combat? I know they can't go in the Nightscythe and I'm pretty sure there is nothing that would let them advance and charge.
    2. What is the Night Scythe transporting? If you aren't planning on using it as a transport, you should likely drop it.
    3. If you are running blobs of Warriors, you should look at grabbing a Res Orb for your Catacomb Command Barge. Speaking of, does it have a Tesla or Gauss Cannon?
    4. I don't like the Enmitic Exterminator for your list. The Warriors, Immortals, and Night Scythe are all anti-infantry, and you don't have much anti-tank outside the Shard of the Void Dragon. I'd swap that out for the anti-tank version.
    Thank you for the feedback!

    1) Hmm, good points - I thought they had the ability to Deep Strike but that's actually the Ophydian Destroyers. I might swap them out, I like the look of the Ophydians a lot (and they come equipped with some S6 D3 attacks)

    2) Night Scythe was going to be transporting one unit of 20 Warriors, to get them within 12" for their +1 Strength

    3) Yep, good point - only 30 points, too. I'll add an Orb in. I like Gauss better than Tesla personally, I'd rather have the AP.

    4) Okay, that makes sense - I don't know if I need so many non-heavy Lokhusts, maybe I'll swap them for 1-3 Heavy Destroyers with the Gauss Destructor.

    Thinking of:

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    Command Barge, Gauss Cannon, Resurrection Orb - Voltaic Staff, WL (Thrall of the Silent King)
    Technomancer - Phylactery Hive, Canoptek Cloak, Dynastic Heirlooms (Nanoscarab Casket)
    Royal Warden - Rarified Nobility (Immortal Pride)

    Troops
    20 x Warriors, Gauss Flayers
    20 x Warriors, Gauss Flayers
    5 x Immortals, Gauss Blaster

    Elites
    Hexmark Destroyer
    Void Dragon (Transdimensional Thunderbolt)

    Fast Attack
    6 x Ophydian Destroyers
    10 x Triarch Praetorians, Rod of Covenant

    Heavy Support
    2 x Lokhust Heavy Destroyers, Gauss Destructor


    Lost the Night Scythe and Skorpos, picked up Ophydians and Heavy Destroyers w/ Gauss Cannon.
    Last edited by Don Qui Ho Tep; 2020-12-15 at 01:53 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Qui Ho Tep View Post
    Thank you for the feedback!

    1) Hmm, good points - I thought they had the ability to Deep Strike but that's actually the Ophydian Destroyers. I might swap them out, I like the look of the Ophydians a lot (and they come equipped with some S6 D3 attacks)

    2) Night Scythe was going to be transporting one unit of 20 Warriors, to get them within 12" for their +1 Strength

    3) Yep, good point - only 30 points, too. I'll add an Orb in. I like Gauss better than Tesla personally, I'd rather have the AP.

    4) Okay, that makes sense - I don't know if I need so many non-heavy Lokhusts, maybe I'll swap them for 1-3 Heavy Destroyers with the Gauss Destructor.

    Thinking of:

    Spoiler: 10 CP, 98 PL, 1985 Pts
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    Command Barge, Gauss Cannon, Resurrection Orb - Voltaic Staff, WL (Thrall of the Silent King)
    Technomancer - Phylactery Hive, Canoptek Cloak, Dynastic Heirlooms (Nanoscarab Casket)
    Royal Warden - Rarified Nobility (Immortal Pride)

    Troops
    20 x Warriors, Gauss Flayers
    20 x Warriors, Gauss Flayers
    5 x Immortals, Gauss Blaster

    Elites
    Hexmark Destroyer
    Void Dragon (Transdimensional Thunderbolt)

    Fast Attack
    6 x Ophydian Destroyers
    10 x Triarch Praetorians, Rod of Covenant

    Heavy Support
    2 x Lokhust Heavy Destroyers, Gauss Destructor


    Lost the Night Scythe and Skorpos, picked up Ophydians and Heavy Destroyers w/ Gauss Cannon.
    Ophydians are, for now, basically bad wraiths. They even cost the same ammount of points, just to add insult to injury. The void dragon has similar issues (although nowhere near as bad); It's just not as good as the Nightbringer.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Squark View Post
    Ophydians are, for now, basically bad wraiths. They even cost the same ammount of points, just to add insult to injury. The void dragon has similar issues (although nowhere near as bad); It's just not as good as the Nightbringer.

    Re-reading the Nightbringer profile, I do see its merits (and it happens to be a little less expensive which doesn't hurt). But I'm afraid I don't see the merits of Canoptek Wraiths over Ophydians, the only thing they have going for them is a better save/invulnerable and the option for a ranged weapon. Canopteks are 2 inches faster than Ophydians, but they can't deep strike, which for me is more decisive. Could you expand on why you feel that way?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Qui Ho Tep View Post
    Re-reading the Nightbringer profile, I do see its merits (and it happens to be a little less expensive which doesn't hurt). But I'm afraid I don't see the merits of Canoptek Wraiths over Ophydians, the only thing they have going for them is a better save/invulnerable and the option for a ranged weapon. Canopteks are 2 inches faster than Ophydians, but they can't deep strike, which for me is more decisive. Could you expand on why you feel that way?
    Vicious Claws are Strength 6 to the Ophydians' S4, which makes them much better at actually killing things. Toughness 5, a 3+ save, and the invulnerable makes them much, much harder to kill. Wraith form also gives them the mobility they need to footslog up the battlefield without getting shot to pieces, which is good, because Necrons are not great at charging out of deep strike. So I really don't reccomend them. I'd also drop the unit down to 5, because the new coherency rules are very unpleasant for large-based melee units.

    Other thoughts on the list
    -Royal Wardens and Technomancers are both relatively squishy. If they start losing health, whether because of sniper teams or because they where caught out in the open, I wouldn't expect them to make it to your next turn. So I's save 2 CPs and drop the survivability relic/warlord trait.

    -Hexmark Destroyers... are weird. I really don't see why a Guard-equivalent murdering deepstriking character is something anyone would want. I'd cut it, especially since he's your 4th character, which is very risky when Assassinate is a thing.

    -While keeping the triarch praetorians at full strength makes them an attractive Resurrection orb target, it's still very possible for your opponent to murder all 10 in one round. I think 2 units of 5 might be better to avoid blast and the coherency rules. Actually, I'd cut the Ophydians and wraiths and bring 3 units of 5, so your Command Barge has more protection.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Qui Ho Tep View Post
    Thank you for the feedback!

    1) Hmm, good points - I thought they had the ability to Deep Strike but that's actually the Ophydian Destroyers. I might swap them out, I like the look of the Ophydians a lot (and they come equipped with some S6 D3 attacks)

    2) Night Scythe was going to be transporting one unit of 20 Warriors, to get them within 12" for their +1 Strength

    3) Yep, good point - only 30 points, too. I'll add an Orb in. I like Gauss better than Tesla personally, I'd rather have the AP.

    4) Okay, that makes sense - I don't know if I need so many non-heavy Lokhusts, maybe I'll swap them for 1-3 Heavy Destroyers with the Gauss Destructor.

    Thinking of:

    Spoiler: 10 CP, 98 PL, 1985 Pts
    Show
    HQ
    Command Barge, Gauss Cannon, Resurrection Orb - Voltaic Staff, WL (Thrall of the Silent King)
    Technomancer - Phylactery Hive, Canoptek Cloak, Dynastic Heirlooms (Nanoscarab Casket)
    Royal Warden - Rarified Nobility (Immortal Pride)

    Troops
    20 x Warriors, Gauss Flayers
    20 x Warriors, Gauss Flayers
    5 x Immortals, Gauss Blaster

    Elites
    Hexmark Destroyer
    Void Dragon (Transdimensional Thunderbolt)

    Fast Attack
    6 x Ophydian Destroyers
    10 x Triarch Praetorians, Rod of Covenant

    Heavy Support
    2 x Lokhust Heavy Destroyers, Gauss Destructor


    Lost the Night Scythe and Skorpos, picked up Ophydians and Heavy Destroyers w/ Gauss Cannon.
    1. Ophydians aren't as good as Wraiths, I'll explain later.

    2. Sounds good

    3. Certainly, the Gauss Cannon is way better. The only reason to take Tesla is to use the Maefic Arcing Stratagem, which isn't bad, but you have to take Tesla to use it.

    4. No, the non-heavy Lokhusts are your bread and butter for fighting both Marines and Custodes. AP-3, S6, D3 damage with 3 shots? They are your best bet for putting some damage down on Custodes. Heavy Lokhusts are good too, don't get me wrong. But Gauss Cannons are also good against most vehicles, so if needed they can play either role. Particularly with Extermination Protocols to get rerolls to wound.

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Qui Ho Tep View Post
    Re-reading the Nightbringer profile, I do see its merits (and it happens to be a little less expensive which doesn't hurt). But I'm afraid I don't see the merits of Canoptek Wraiths over Ophydians, the only thing they have going for them is a better save/invulnerable and the option for a ranged weapon. Canopteks are 2 inches faster than Ophydians, but they can't deep strike, which for me is more decisive. Could you expand on why you feel that way?
    The big thing is the 4+ invunerable. It makes them significantly more durable. Also with a 12 inch move, and ignoring terrain, they can basically guarantee a Turn 2 charge since there is no reason to not Advance them turn 1. While the Ophydians are honestly likely going to fail the charge out of Deep Strike, since Necrons don't really have any bonuses to their charge unless you are playing Novohka.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    So I've got to wonder if the Macharius Vanquisher's twin Vanquisher cannon in the IA Compendium is a preview of what they plan to do with the weapon on the Russ Vanquisher. S16, D9, +1 to hit Vehicles would go a long way to making it the anti-tank wonder it's supposed to be.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Wait, ****, is the macharius good now? That would be a game changer for me.
    - Avatar by LCP -

  17. - Top - End - #677
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by LeSwordfish View Post
    Wait, ****, is the macharius good now? That would be a game changer for me.
    The basic Macharius really isn't; it's twin battle cannon is just a twin battle cannon, so it has exactly the same output as a Russ with Grinding Advance. But the Vanquisher variant's gun is bonkers against single targets now.
    "Courage is the complement of fear. A fearless man cannot be courageous. He is also a fool." -- Robert Heinlein


  18. - Top - End - #678
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Squark View Post
    Vicious Claws are Strength 6 to the Ophydians' S4, which makes them much better at actually killing things. Toughness 5, a 3+ save, and the invulnerable makes them much, much harder to kill. Wraith form also gives them the mobility they need to footslog up the battlefield without getting shot to pieces, which is good, because Necrons are not great at charging out of deep strike. So I really don't reccomend them. I'd also drop the unit down to 5, because the new coherency rules are very unpleasant for large-based melee units.

    Other thoughts on the list
    -Royal Wardens and Technomancers are both relatively squishy. If they start losing health, whether because of sniper teams or because they where caught out in the open, I wouldn't expect them to make it to your next turn. So I's save 2 CPs and drop the survivability relic/warlord trait.

    -Hexmark Destroyers... are weird. I really don't see why a Guard-equivalent murdering deepstriking character is something anyone would want. I'd cut it, especially since he's your 4th character, which is very risky when Assassinate is a thing.

    -While keeping the triarch praetorians at full strength makes them an attractive Resurrection orb target, it's still very possible for your opponent to murder all 10 in one round. I think 2 units of 5 might be better to avoid blast and the coherency rules. Actually, I'd cut the Ophydians and wraiths and bring 3 units of 5, so your Command Barge has more protection.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    1. Ophydians aren't as good as Wraiths, I'll explain later.

    2. Sounds good

    3. Certainly, the Gauss Cannon is way better. The only reason to take Tesla is to use the Maefic Arcing Stratagem, which isn't bad, but you have to take Tesla to use it.

    4. No, the non-heavy Lokhusts are your bread and butter for fighting both Marines and Custodes. AP-3, S6, D3 damage with 3 shots? They are your best bet for putting some damage down on Custodes. Heavy Lokhusts are good too, don't get me wrong. But Gauss Cannons are also good against most vehicles, so if needed they can play either role. Particularly with Extermination Protocols to get rerolls to wound.


    The big thing is the 4+ invunerable. It makes them significantly more durable. Also with a 12 inch move, and ignoring terrain, they can basically guarantee a Turn 2 charge since there is no reason to not Advance them turn 1. While the Ophydians are honestly likely going to fail the charge out of Deep Strike, since Necrons don't really have any bonuses to their charge unless you are playing Novohka.
    Thanks again for your help, and for explaining the logic; this all makes sense. So reforming once again:


    Spoiler: 96 PL, 11 CP, 1995 pts
    Show
    HQ
    Command Barge, Gauss Cannon, Resurrection Orb, Voltaic Staff - WL (Thrall of the Silent King)
    Royal Warden
    Technomancer, Canoptek Cloak, Dynastic Heirlooms (Nanoscarab Casket)

    Troops
    20 x Warriors, Gauss Flayers
    20 x Warriors, Gauss Flayers
    10 x Immortals, Gauss Blaster

    Fast Attack
    5 x Triarch Praetorians, Rod of Covenant
    5 x Triarch Praetorians, Rod of Covenant
    6 x Canoptek Wraiths, Vicious Claws, Transdimensional Beamer

    Heavy Support
    3 x Lokhust Destroyers
    2 x Lokhust Heavy Destroyers, Gauss Destructor

    Flyer
    Night Scythe


    Cheers!
    Check out my miniature painting log! Trying to update weekly.

  19. - Top - End - #679
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Guide to Blood Angels

    Spoiler: Abilities
    Show
    A BLOOD ANGELS Detachment gains the following:
    Chapter Tactics - Red Thirst: +1 to Advance and Charge rolls. In addition, on the first turn of any melee engagement, your Blood Angels have +1 to Wound.

    BLOOD ANGELS Detachments can't take a CHAPTER ANCIENT.

    A BLOOD ANGELS Army gains the following:
    Savage Echoes: While the Assault Doctrine is active, on the first turn of any melee engagement, your Blood Angels have +1 Attack.

    Both of the above are in addition to Shock Assault. While Blood Angels may not hit as fast as White Scars, they hit much, much harder, when they do. However, as with every Astartes Army based around the Assault Doctrine, a lot of players may feel that it's too slow to be worthwhile. As such, depending on what you run with your Blood Angels, it may not be worth running them as a complete army, and you may want to sprinkle in some White Scars.


    Successor Tactics: +1 to wound in the first turn of melee is very strong. Not totally sure why you'd want to trade that away. But it's pretty clear that Blood Angels Successors are designed to be Melee-based Chapters, so let's see what we can do with that:
    - Born Heroes. Trade your +1 to wound, for +1 to hit, but only when you Charge. There are a few ways to get +1 to hit in Melee, because you're Blood Angels. You don't need this.
    - Duellists. It's just not that good
    - Hungry for Battle. At least try and keep some of your Blood Angels' Tactics.
    - Rapid Assault. It's what White Scars do. Advance with Assault weapons, and then get stuck into Melee using Stratagems and Abilities.
    - Tactical Withdrawl. Once Assault Doctrine is up, you'll want to be Falling Back and Charging again, all day.
    - Whirlwind of Rage. More hits equals more chances to wound. But remember, as regular Blood Angels, you would have a better chance to wound anyway.


    Flesh Tearers
    Blood Angels get to share their Supplement with a pseudo-Successor Chapter, that steals their page-space.

    Chapter Tactics - Fury Within: On the first turn of any melee engagement, your Blood Angels have +1 to Wound. Additionally, Melee attacks that roll a '6' to wound increase their AP by an additional -1 - this stacks with Assault Doctrine.


    The Lost
    In each BLOOD ANGELS Detachment, one CAPTAIN and up to two LIEUTENANTS can gain the DEATH COMPANY Keyword, for +20 and +10 Points, respectively.
    - A DEATH COMPANY model can never be your Warlord.
    - A DEATH COMPANY CAPTAIN loses Rites of Battle, and now only gives DEATH COMPANY CORE units rr1s to hit.
    - A DEATH COMPANY LIEUTENANT loses the similar rule, and gains the similar rule. But with to wound. Obviously.
    - DEATH COMPANY models can't be upgraded via Chapter Command. Additionally, Death Company models also lose the Company Command rule, which means that Death Company Captains and Lieutenants no longer count towards your CAPTAIN and LIEUTENANTS limit in your Detachments. This means that you absolutely can have two Captains in your Detachment, just so long as one of them is DEATH COMPANY - for better or worse.
    - Gain Black Rage and Death Visions abilities (below).

    Death Company Abilities
    Black Rage.
    - Can't ever Fall Back.
    - If the unit Charges or performs a Heroic Intervention, +1 Attack. This is in addition to Shock Assault, and in addition to Savage Echoes.
    - Ignore Wounds (6+)
    - Cannot perform Actions. For better or worse.

    Death Visions. Once per game, during the Fight phase, a Character may use one of the following. The same Death Vision can't be used twice:
    - If any INFANTRY CHARACTERS or MONSTER CHARACTERS are visible, your model gains +1 Attack for each five enemy models within 6". In addition, the model re-rolls all to hits.
    - If any INFANTRY CHARACTERS or MONSTER CHARACTERS are within Engagement, gain a 3+ Invulnerable 'til the end of the turn.
    - If any INFANTRY CHARACTERS or MONSTER CHARACTERS are within Engagement. Instead of Fighting, roll-off with your opponent. If you win the roll-off, deal D3+3 Mortal Wounds to one of the enemy models.
    So, no matter how many DEATH COMPANY CHARACTERS in your army, you can only use Death Visions three times. And, if your opponent is playing Astra Militarum, with VEHICLE CHARACTERS, you're SOoL.


    Spoiler: Army List Choices
    Show
    Blood Angels Warlord Traits
    1. Always Strikes First.
    2. Gain a non-unique piece Special-Issue Wargear. This is in addition to any other Relics the Warlord might have.
    3. Aura 6"; BLOOD ANGELS have Ignore Wounds (5+). Very, very good.
    4. A Captain, Chaplain, Lieutenant or Chapter Master adds +3" to its main Aura ability. Additionally, Aura 6"; BLOOD ANGELS CORE units gain +1 Leadership. Not good.
    5. Each turn, your Warlord gains a re-roll to hit, a re-roll to wound, and a re-roll to saving throws. You can burn through the equivalent 3 CPs per turn. Very, very good.
    6. Heroic Intervene 6". Not that good.

    Flesh Tearers Warlord Traits
    For the purposes of Warlord Traits, FLESH TEARERS are not BLOOD ANGELS, and can't pick from the above, and instead pick from the below:
    1. Gain +1 Attack for every 5 enemy models within 3" (max. +3).
    2. Melee attacks that roll a '6' to hit, score an extra hit.
    3. Re-roll Charges, and your opponent can't fire Overwatch or Set to Defend.
    ...Well that sucks.

    Sanguinary Discipline
    1. WC6, Self. Re-roll Advance and Charge rolls, and gain +D3 Attacks.
    2. WC6, 12". BLOOD ANGELS CORE unit deals extra hits in Melee on a '6' to hit.
    3. WC6, 18". Give a unit within a 5+ Invulnerable save. Put it on Centurions or Aggressors.
    4. WC6, 18". Roll 2d6 vs. target's Toughness. Deal D3 Mortal Wounds. If the roll is double or more that the target's Toughness, deal 3 Mortal Wounds, instead. Pretty good.
    5. WC6, 18" Line. Roll a 5+ for each unit under the line between your Psyker and an enemy model and deal a single Mortal Wound.
    6. WC6, Self. Until the end of the phase, your Psyker has a Move of 12" and FLY. Your Psyker may immediately make a Normal or Fall Back move. There are no restrictions on what he can do for the rest of the turn (i.e; Charge).

    Relics of the Angels
    Only Blood Angels can choose Relics when choosing Relics, except for the Flesh Tearers' ones.

    Wrath of Baal. SANGUINARY ANCIENT. Aura 6"; BLOOD ANGELS JUMP PACK units gain +2" to Normal, Advance and Fall Back moves.

    Icon of the Angel. Aura 6"; BLOOD ANGELS re-roll Charges. Very strong. No limitations.

    Visage of Death. Your opponent has -1 to hit this model using Melee attacks. Additionally, Aura 3"; Enemy units lose Objective Secured. Good.

    Hammer of Baal. [Thunder Hammer]. It's a Thunder Hammer with AP-3 and no negs to hit.

    Gallian's Staff. [Force Stave]. Has an extra AP, and gives +1 to manifest from the Sanguinary Discipline.

    The Crimson Plate. FLESH TEARERS TERMINATOR. +1" to Move. Advance and Charge in the same turn. 4" Pile-In and Consolidation. This is very good for the odd foot-Terminator that hasn't set up in Reinforcements...What even is that?

    Severer. FLESH TEARERS [Astartes Chainsword]. It's all S+2, AP-2, D2. On a 5+ to wound, it deals an additional Mortal Wound. Unfortunately, unlike Teeth of Terra, it forgot to give you a ****load of attacks. The only real way that this Relic Chainsword is viable is if your Warlord Trait is picking up The Imperium's Sword. Otherwise, just use Teeth of Terra. It's the exact same theme, but it's better.

    Special-Issue Wargear
    Blood Angels Successor Chapters - including Flesh Tearers - can only select from the below, when choosing Relics for their army.

    Adamantine Mantle. The Warlord Trait is an Aura. Do not use.

    Artificer Armour. Generally unnecessary except for Characters that aren't Captains or Chaplains.

    Master-Crafted Weapon. Usually reserved for 'Sergeant' models.

    Digital Weapons. Every time you Fight, make an additional attack that deals a Mortal Wound. WS2+ is pretty good.

    Quake Bolts. Make one attack using a normal Bolt weapon's profile. If the attack hits, all of your units gain +1 to hit with Melee attacks against that unit until the end of the turn. The weapon still resolves its damage - off of one attack. Still, firing off a Quake Bolt using a Bolt Pistol, to dunk on a whole unit of 20 Ork Boyz is pretty good.

    Archangel's Shard. [Power Sword]. S+2, AP-4, D2. So far, so good. Against CHAOS models, it has D3, and against CHAOS MONSTER units, its Damage is increased to 4. Whittle down Death Guard models hard.

    Fleshrender Grenades. [Frag Grenades]. Grenade D3, S5, AP-3, D2. Ignores Light Cover. This is...Deceptively good. Lack of Blast is upsetting. But it really doesn't need it. Relic Grenades!

    Gleaming Pinions. JUMP PACK. Fall Back and Charge in the same turn. Re-roll Charges. Remember Shock Assault, and remember that since you're Blood Angels (ideally), you get +1 to wound every time you 'reset' the Melee to the first turn. Very strong.

    Secondary Objectives
    If you have a BLOOD ANGELS army, you can select one of the following:

    Blade of Sanguinius (Purge). You select a BLOOD ANGELS CHARACTER in your army, and your opponent selects any CHARACTER in their army:
    - Gain 5 VPs if you destroyed your opponent's Character.
    - Gain +5 VPs if you destroyed your opponent's Character using a Melee attack.
    - Gain +5 VPs if you destroyed your opponent's Character using a Melee attack made by the model you selected from your army.
    ...Well that's an easy 10 at least. Maxing this shouldn't be out of the question. You build your army from the ground up to make this happen. This is a Secondary you will pick every game. Thanks for playing. This is better than any other Purge Objective. Be wary of your opponents selecting PSYKER models, since now they're incentivised to roll for Perils of the Warp and kill themselves so that you don't get the extra points. This is better than almost any other Purge Objective you can think of, and is actually better than most Objectives. It's about as good as Titan Slayers, but you know that your opponents will have a Titan every single game, so it's guaranteed points that you should build around.

    Fury of the Lost (No Mecry, No Respite). At the end of your turn, gain 3 VPs if a DEATH COMPANY unit destroyed an enemy unit that turn. Doesn't scale. So, the more units you destroy in a single turn, doesn't matter. Still only 3 VPs at the end. Also has diminishing returns as the game progresses. Your opponents will absolutely recognise that any Death Company units you own will be among the best units in your army, and target them down. After Turns 3+ it will become harder and harder to achieve this secondary as you have less and less Death Company on the board. Not a good pick. Take your Death Company. Absolutely. But don't tie them to your win conditions.

    Relentless Assault (Battlefield Supremacy). Score 4 VPs at the end of your turn, if there are more BLOOD ANGELS in your opponent's DZ, than there are enemy units, in your DZ. Neither stipulation requires 'wholly within'. Very swingy, depending on your opponent's army list, and as such this isn't really something you can build your army around, because getting into your opponent's DZ - even with Blood Angels - isn't actually that easy.
    As a Supremacy Objective, this Objective can't stack with Engage on All Fronts, or Linebreaker. But it can stack with Repair Teleport Homers. It's a decent enough Objective to pick if you want to be nice to your opponent. You have the potential to score it, and they actually have the potential to stop you from scoring it.


    Spoiler: Stratagems
    Show
    Blood Angels Successor Chapters count as BLOOD ANGELS for the purposes of Stratagems. All Flesh Tearers are Blood Angels, but not all Successors are Flesh Tearers. Seems unfair.

    Descent of Angels: A BLOOD ANGELS CORE JUMP PACK unit that arrived from Reinforcements this turn, may ignore modifiers to Charges, and gains +1 to hit with Melee attacks. Very good. You just need to grab re-roll Charges from somewhere.

    Vengeance for Sanguinius: When a BLOOD ANGELS unit makes melee attacks vs. BLACK LEGION, the unit can re-roll to hit and to wound. Kick Abaddon's **** in, in Melee. Which is exactly where you want to be.

    Refusal to Die (1/2): A DEATH COMPANY unit increases its Ignore Wounds to 5+. Costs 1CP if the unit has <5 models, 2CPs if 6+ models.

    Aggressive Onslaught: FLESH TEARERS INFANTRY can Pile-In and Consolidate +3".

    Angel's Sacrifice: Until the end of the Fight phase, all enemy models within Engagement range, must target your BLOOD ANGELS CHARACTER. Many potential uses for tanking for a unit. Very strong Stratagem.

    Spiritual Might: A BLOOD ANGELS PSYKER can manifest an extra Power.

    Visions of Sanguinius: When one of your DEATH COMPANY CHARACTER models Fights, if it has already used its Death Visions, ability, you may use another one. If your Character has not used a Death Visions ability yet, you may use two different Visions this phase at the same time.

    Angel Exemplar: Your non-named Warlord gains a second Warlord Trait. Carry on.

    Angel Ascendant: A 'Sergeant' in your army can pick up a piece of Special-Issue Wargear. Quake Bolts are one of the few 'Bolt' Relics that is really, really good.

    Lucifer-Pattern Engines: A non-FLY, non-DREADNOUGHT Vehicle gains the ability to Auto-Advance 6" for the game. There aren't too many Vehicles around with Assault weapons.

    Honoured by the Arx Angelicum: When your Successor Chapter chooses a Relic for its army, you can choose from Relics of the Angels.

    Red Rampage: If the Assault Doctrine is active for your army, every BLOOD ANGELS model in your army now gains an additional AP-1 on a '6' to wound, cumulative with Assault Doctrine.

    Unbridled Ardour: Target SANGUINARY GUARD can Heroica Intervene 6".

    Forlorn Fury (1/2): Before the first battle round, target DEATH COMPANY unit makes a free Normal Move, but must end their Move more than 9" away from enemy models. If the target unit is a DREADNOUGHT or has 6+ models, this Stratagem costs 2 CPs. This is an amazing Stratagem that wins games. While you're unlikely to pull off as many Turn 1 Charges as White Scars (though you are Blood Angels, and Incursors are a real unit), Death Company on a Turn 1 Charge is brutal. Have them Move onto a Phobos Librarian if you want, or have a Primaris Chaplain on Bike that can Auto-Advance 6" and move 20" on Turn 1 and Inspire even when they hit your opponent's DZ.

    Upon Wings of Fire: Target BLOOD ANGELS CORE JUMP PACK unit is removed from the battlefield, and sets up again in the next Reinforcements step using Death From Above.

    Savage Destruction: If an enemy unit fails a Morale test while Engaged with FLESH TEARERS models, that unit has -1 to Combat Attrition tests...That means that they first have to fail Morale. You can use this if that ever happens. But will it?

    Chalice Overflowing: Target SANGUINARY PRIEST can give two units the Assault Doctrine, this turn. Can be useful.


    Spoiler: Blood Angels Characters
    Show
    Commander Dante: CHAPTER MASTER, JUMP PACK, FLY. Carries an Inferno Pistol, and a S+3, AP-3 D2 weapon. Your opponent has -1 to hit Dante at all times. Additionally, if Dante is your Warlord, he has the dumb Leadership Warlord Trait, but also gives you +1 CP. Additionally, once per game an Epic Deed Stratagem costs 0 CPs when used on Dante. Fairly solid Chapter Master, made even more important because he doesn't take your CAPTAIN slot. Very nice. If only because you're Blood Angels and now you have three pseudo-Captains.

    The Sanguinor: JUMP PACK, FLY. Best Character in the book. Costs less than Dante. Doesn't take a CAPTAIN slot or anything. He carries a Relic Blade-like weapon that can also deal Mortal Wounds on a '6' to wound. Aura 6"; BLOOD ANGELS CORE and CHARACTER models gain +1 Attack - not cumulative with Shock Assault, but that's fine because you can put him anywhere... If The Sanguinor is in Reinforcements, if your opponent successfully completes a Charge, you can immediately place The Sanguinor in Engagement Range with the enemy unit (yes, even on Turn 1). He counts as Heroically Interveneing. Additionally, The Sanguinor can Fall Back and Charge in the same turn, and Heroically Intervene 6". His Warlord Trait is the same hot garbage as Dante's. Generally speaking, if you're playing as Blood Angels, you're running The Sanguinor or Commander Dante - but not both.

    Brother Corbulo: CHIEF APOTHECARY. Does what Chief Apothecaries do. However, since he's Blood Angels, he has an Aura 6"; BLOOD ANGELS CORE and CHARACTER units always have Assault Doctrine instead of whatever Combat Doctrine is currently active. A very strong model coming out of a Drop Pod. If you can somehow get re-rolls to Charges, your Blood Angels will be very strong. His Warlord Trait is all the re-rolls. Main issue with Brother Corbulo is that he is not a SANGUINARY PRIEST.
    Q. It's still unclear if units gain all the benefits of a Doctrine (e.g; Savage Echoes), when an ability like this is active.

    Chief Librarian Mephiston: CHIEF LIBRARIAN. A Primaris Librarian with WS/BS 2+, S5 and T5, with 6 Wounds and 5 Attacks. Additionally, he wears Artificer Armour, and has Ignore Wounds (5+). Still want more? Of course you do! Mephiston carries a Force...Fist. If you're paying attention, that means Mephiston hits at S10 with no negs to hit. As a Chief Librarian, Mephiston is manifesting twice per turn; Wings of Sanguinius gives himself a not!Jump Pack, and by now you should know how important Jump Packs are to a functional Blood Angels army. For his second Power? ...Well, the only thing that Mephiston is missing, is an Invulnerable save, and Shield of Sanguinius can get him that. Chief Librarian Mephiston is what a Primaris Captain wishes he was. Mephiston is, individually, one of the best models in the entire game. Fortunately for everyone involved, the game of 40K isn't really based around individual models.

    Astorath: MASTER OF SANCTITY, JUMP PACK, FLY. At this point we're starting to see a bit of redundancy in the Blood Angels' Characters which becomes a problem when some of them are not as good as the others. In addition to his normal Chaplain abilities, DEATH COMPANY within 6" auto-pass Morale tests. In addition to the normal Litanies, Astorath comes with his own special Litany; Mass of Doom. You can pick a BLOOD ANGELS CORE or CHARACTER within 6" and give them +1 to hit with Melee attacks...With Caveats. Roll a D6; On a '1', one model in the unit is destroyed (...wait...Did you say that you can do this to Characters? Are you insane!?). On a '6' the unit gains a 4+ Invulnerable save. It's a fine Litany. But all of your Characters should come with some decent Auras that don't only trigger on a 3+ and don't kill model maybe.

    Lemartes: CHAPLAIN, DEATH COMPANY, JUMP PACK, FLY. Has Black Rage, but not Death Visions.
    - Aura 6"; DEATH COMPANY CORE and CHARACTER models re-roll Charges. Lemartes is already very, very good.
    - Aura 6"; Only DEATH COMPANY can use his Chaplain's Leadership.
    - Lemartes can only target DEATH COMPANY units with his Litanies. If the Litany grants an Aura, the Aura only affects DEATH COMPANY units.
    - His Warlord Trait is the best one, Aura 6"; Ignore Wounds (5+). Which is slightly better than the Black Rage Ignore Wounds which your Death Company would already have.
    Lemartes is really, really good, as he grants a Warlord Trait-free way to give Death Company units re-roll Charges. Death Company are your Blood Angel signature unit and the unit you can and/or will build your army around.

    Captain Tycho: CAPTAIN. His Melee attacks vs. ORKS have +1 Strength and Damage. Is that all? ...Yes. Is he even good against Orks at least? ...Not even a little bit! His Warlord Trait is Heroic Intervention. Which isn't anything.

    Tycho the Lost: DEATH COMPANY. He gains Black Rage and Death Visions. He still has the Melee-boost against Orks. His Rites of Battle, also now only affects DEATH COMPANY, and it's range is now 9". Still has the same Warlord Trait. Still terrible. It's weird that Tycho is dead, and yet GW still keeps him around even though he's now four editions out of date.


    Spoiler: Gabriel Seth
    Show
    Gabriel Seth: FLESH TEARERS CHAPTER MASTER. Comes with a Thunder Hammer that doesn't have negs to hit. Aura 6"; FLESH TEARERS CORE do additional Melee Damage on a '6' to wound. Additionally, Gabriel Seth can Fight again at the end of the Fight phase, making him really strong. However as a Firstborn Marine-on-Foot, the only correct way to use him is with a Drop Pod, to get him into Melee on Turn 1. His Warlord Trait is the Flesh Tearers Trait that grants extra attacks...No. Wrong. You need a Warlord Trait that lets you re-roll Charges (Chapter Champion), or use a CP so you can use the Arx Stratagem to get Icon of the Angel.


    Spoiler: Blood Angels Units
    Show
    Blood Angels Successor Chapters count as BLOOD ANGELS for the purposes of non-named units.

    HQ

    Sanguinary Priest: APOTHECARY. Does Apothecary things. However, Blood Angels also does an extra thing; In your Command phase, choose a BLOOD ANGELS CORE or CHARACTER unit, and give it Assault Doctrine instead of whatever it actually has. Additionally, the Codex is for losers. Sanguinary Priests are Apothecaries that can take Jump Packs, giving 12" Move, JUMP PACK and FLY. Very good. Remember that DEATH COMPANY units don't really benefit from Apothecaries.

    Librarian Dreadnought: SMOKESCREEN, CHARACTER, LIBRRAIAN, DREADNOUGHT, VEHICLE. From those Keywords alone, there's a lot to unpack. Straight off the bat, you've got a Dreadnought that can manifest Smite, and thus, churn out Mortal Wounds. However, a huge issue with Librarian Dreadnoughts is how they eat at your HQ slots, which are far too valuable to 'waste' on something like a Librarian Dreadnought, unless you're playing a Blood Angels Successor and don't have access to their really good named Characters. Librarian Dreadnoughts are not bad. It's just that proper Blood Angels have way better things to take, first.

    Elites

    Sanguinary Guard: Veteran Marines with a 2+ Armour save. They also carry 2 Damage Melee weapons which actually makes them really good. Your opponent also has -1 to hit them in Melee, and whilst Sanguinary Guard are within 6" of your Warlord, they gain +1 Attack. They are a solid, solid unit. Unfortunately, Sanguinary Guard aren't as...Easy...To run, because they can't be paired with Lemartes, which requires you to do a bit more work to get them where they need to be. But they also don't have an Invulnerable save or Ignore Wounds. But there is actually a Warlord Trait for that. Unfortunately, unlike all similar units, Sanguinary Guard do not have the Bodyguard rule. Can't use Forlorn Fury, and can't be buffed easily be Lemartes, so you kind of need Icon of the Angel to make them effective.

    Sanguinary Ancient: SANGUINARY GUARD, ANCIENT. Has all the things. -1 to hit him in Melee, 2+ Armour, solid 2 Damage Melee weapon. Carries an Astartes Banner, and the Blood Angels' Chapter Banner, giving a BLOOD ANGELS CORE unit +1 to hit in Melee. Which, being a modifier to hit, doesn't stack with the +1 to hit that SANGUINARY GUARD already get for being within 6" of your Warlord. As a Character that doesn't really have anything better to do, they make a great caddy for Icon of the Angel. It's also thematic.

    Death Company Dreadnought: DEATH COMPANY, obviously, and SMOKESCREEN. Unfortunately, is not Core, unlike other Dreadnoughts, and so can't be hit by Lemartes' re-roll Charge Aura. Has Black Rage, so it's always cool when Vehicles get Ignore Wounds (6+), and reduce any incoming Damage by 1, just for being a Dreadnought. DC Dreadnoughts aren't even that bad. However, because you're Space Marines - and Blood Angels, too - your Elite slots are some of your most valuable slots and there are so many other, better choices you can make instead of a Dreadnought that doesn't even get the Core Keyword.

    Death Company Marines: Black Rage means Ignore Wounds (6+), and spending a lot of points on an INFANTRY units that can't perform Actions, so you need to look out for that. Death Company can be equipped with Boltguns, Pistols, Chainswords, Power Weapons and Thunder Hammers. Of course your main go-to will always be Power Fists. Ignore the Special Pistols, you aren't dumb. Additionally, because this is Blood Angels, you can grab Jump Packs, for 12" Move, FLY, Death From Above, and force multiplying hard with Lemartes. Forlorn Fury is very, very strong. Otherwise you're looking at Drop Pods and Icon of the Angel, or Chapter Champion-Warlords.

    Death Company Intercessors: Take Veteran Intercessors, give 'em Black Rage and remove the Sergeant. As with all Firstborn vs. Primaris units, well, the Firstborn (above) can take Jump Packs and as many Power Fists and/or Power Axes (maybe a Thunder Hammer?) as it wants. Death Company Intercessors...Don't do that. You can have one Power Sword, or Power Fist, or Thunder Hammer. Pretty awful.

    Furioso Dreadnought: Again, your special Dreadnoughts aren't CORE, and in a very real way that makes them lame. There's no reason to not take a Death Company Dreadnought, instead. Unless you explicitly want the Heavy Frag Cannon (2d3, S7, AP-1, 2 Damage, Blast). It's not great, but it's not bad either. It's just that when it comes to Autocannons there are better ways to get them.

    Heavy Support

    Baal Predator: SMOKESCREEN. There's not a lot good to say, here. It's got 11 Wounds, which is the wrong number of Wounds to have when you're a Vehicle with no protections. Additionally, the Baal Predator has Overcharged Engines which allows it to auto-Advance 6" like a unit of Bikes, but it's stacked with Heavy weapons, which means if you use the Baal Predator in the way that it's designed to be used...You can't use it. Does not do what it says on the tin. Avoid.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    HTML Code:
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    You've done that deliberately, and all I can see is some kind of sarcasm: "A bLoOd AnGeLs dEtAcHmEnT"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    You've done that deliberately, and all I can see is some kind of sarcasm: "A bLoOd AnGeLs dEtAcHmEnT"
    That's how keywords are formatted in the codices.
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    Guide to Iron Hands

    Spoiler: Detachment Abilities
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    Chapter Tactics - The Flesh is Weak: All of your models gain Ignore Wounds (6+), and any model that has a Damage Table (e.g; Vehicles), always counts as having double the number of wounds it actually does. Obviously, giving all of your Vehicles Ignore Wounds, and then making them better, for longer, really pushes Iron Hands towards spamming Vehicles. But just by virtue of Ignore Wounds, you subvert - at least in part - Astartes' need for Apothecaries near their best units. Then again, if you're running a lot of Vehicles, do you even need Apothecaries?

    If your entire Army features IRON HANDS and Iron Hands' Successors:
    Calculated Fury: Whilst Devastator Doctrine is up, your units don't suffer the penalty for moving and shooting with Heavy weapons, and, whilst shooting with Heavy weapons, your models re-roll 1s to hit. This greatly benefits units like Devastators, since they're really the only INFANTRY that you have that actually spams Heavy weapons. But when they move, though? That's easy! On Turn 1, out of a Drop Pod. Which is when Devastator Doctrine is happening! But, equally nice, is that since VEHICLES lack the CORE Keyword, it's really nice to have that rr1 ability, since you can't pick it up off of a CAPTAIN. This is a pretty decent Army Doctrine, since it happens on Turn 1. After that, however, Vehicles no longer get any buffs for the rest of the game outside of TECHMARINES. Which means that Iron Hands fall into this weird chasm of "Do I run non-Vehicles, or Vehicles?" and no matter what you pick, you kind of accidentally pick wrong. Remember,
    Alternative take: Iron Hands are a 'balanced' Space Marine army that can take anything it wants and excel in no particular area...For Space Marines. They still should have an extraordinarily strong Turn 1, though.


    Successor Tactics: Is Ignore Wounds (6+), any good? If you're playing Infantry, no. Apothecaries do that for Points. If you're playing Vehicles? Yes. Absolutely. What about that Damage Table bonus? ...No. Not at all for Infantry. So to perhaps to answer the above question...Yes. IRON HANDS, should run Vehicles. Iron Hands players who want to run near-exclusively Infantry...Should probably choose Successor Tactics. But which go well with Infantry with-or-without Heavy weapons?
    - Long Range Marksmen. +3" range on Grav-Cannons and Multi-Meltas is kind of a big deal. Definitely something worth thinking about, even if you're still running Tactical Marines.
    - Master Artisans. Because Devastator Doctrine only happens on Turn 1, and there's still the rest of the game to go.
    - Stealthy. If you're over 18" away from your attacker, you get Light Cover, and you are over 18" away, because you're non-Vehicles spamming Heavy weapons.


    Spoiler: Army List Options
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    Warlord Traits
    Iron Hands Successors count as IRON HANDS.

    1. Your Warlord gains Blessing of the Omnissiah, but only repairs 1 Wound at a time. Terrible. If your Warlord is a TECHMARINE, repair for D3+1. Not a good use of your Trait.
    2. Your Warlord can Deny the Witch. If your Warlord is a LIBRARIAN, Deny an extra time.
    3. Ignore Wounds (5+). Very useful on a Warlord.
    4. Consolidate 6" - not Pile-In. Additionally, when consolidating, your Warlord doesn't have to move towards the closest enemy unit. This is very useful in very niche circumstances. But not actually worth losing your Warlord Trait over.
    5. When you roll a '6' to hit with any attack, make another attack.
    6. During the Shooting phase, choose an IRON HANDS unit within 6", and grant it Master Artisans, but also you can a single re-roll of Damage, too. Very good.

    There's exactly one good Warlord Trait, here, that you should pick every time. Unless you'd rather choose Storm of Fire, or use one of the Chapter Command Warlord Traits.

    Relics of Medusa
    Only IRON HANDS can select from either the Relics or Special-Issue Wargear.

    The Axe of Medusa: [Power Axe]. It's almost like a Thunder Hammer. But it costs way less points and is only slightly less good.

    The Aegis Ferrum: PRIMARIS. +1 Toughness, and reduce all incoming Damage by 1. Not terrible. But not worth choosing.

    The Mindforge: [Any Force Weapon]. The Force Weapon is now a Power Fist. Not bad on a Phobos Librarian making a Turn 1 Charge.

    Betrayer's Bane: [Combi-Melta]. The '-Melta' part of the weapon is now Assault 2. So have your Captain jump on his Bike (20" Advance) and go to town. This is potentially where you might have a Supreme Command of Iron Hands' Successors, just so you can grab the ability to Advance and Shoot with Assault weapons without penalty. And then stick it in your actual army, and because you're all 'Iron Hands', you still get to keep Calculated Fury. But you lose the CPs from taking another Detachment, and you lose the CP from 'allowing' a Successor Chapter to pick up a 'real' Relic. Not worth it. But you can do it for a gimmick.

    The Ironstone: At the start of each round, choose an IRON HANDS VEHICLE within 3", and until the next round, reduce all incoming damage to that Vehicle by 1.

    The Tempered Helm: Every time you spend a CP, roll a 5+ to regain one for the Round.

    The Gorgon's Chain: 4+ Invulnerable save. Additionally, ranged attacks have -1 to wound against this model.

    Special-Issue Wargear
    Iron Hands Successors may only choose from the below, when choosing the Relic(s) for their army:

    Adamantine Mantle: Unnecessary. You're Iron Hands.

    Artificer Armour: For Librarians.

    Master-Crafted Weapon: Only really worth taking on a 'Sergeant' model.

    Digital Weapons: In Melee, do a Mortal Wound on a to hit roll. Can be fairly good if you're willing to burn a Relic or a CP slot for it. But there are just other things to take that are more important.

    Auto-Medicae Bionics: Start of your turn, regain D3 wounds.

    Teeth of Mars: [Chainsword]. Teeth of Terra is Just Better for your regular Characters. Your Sergeants, however, could probably use this very much. AP-2, 2 Damage Chainsword that turns into S*2 vs. VEHICLES. Pretty good. Just not for your 'real' Characters.

    Haywire Bolts: Your 'Bolt-weapon' Relic...That's really good. Make a single attack, as usual. If it hits a VEHICLE, on a 4-5 to wound, deal D3 Mortal Wounds, in a '6' to wound, deal 3 Mortal Wounds. Very good on a Devastator Sergeant in a Drop Pod, when you're coming out swinging with those Grav-Cannons and Multi-Meltas. Or you can give it to an Incursor or Infiltrator Sergeant. Many, many good choices. Haywire Bolts is actually a very reasonable auto-include for your army list. Unlike many other Bolt-weapon Relics in other Chapters which probably just wont see much use because they're too niche. But most armies run a VEHICLE or two.

    Fortis-Pattern Data Spike: TECHMARINE. Roll 2d3 for Blessing of the Omnissiah, and pick the best one.

    Technomancy Discpline
    Iron Hands Successors count as IRON HANDS.

    1. WC5, 12". Target IRON HANDS VEHICLE gains +1 to hit. You may select an IRON HANDS TITANIC model if you roll an 8+ on the Psychic test. But that means that there's a potential that you can't manifest on your Titanic, so always have a backup Vehicle to manifest on.
    2. WC7, 18". Target enemy unit suffers a Mortal Wound every time it rolls a '1' to hit. Brutal. Every weapon your opponent has is now a Plasma weapon.
    3. WC6, 18". Draw a line between your Psyker and the target model. Roll a D6 for each unit under the line. On a 4-5, the unit takes a Mortal Wound. On a '6+', the unit takes D3 Mortal Wounds. Additionally, add 2 to the roll if the unit is a VEHICLE.
    4. WC6, 12". Target friendly IRON HANDS unit gains +1 to its Armour Save.
    5. WC5, 3". Target visible IRON HANDS VEHICLE regains D3 Wounds. This Power cannot be used on a Vehicle that has already regained wounds this turn (e.g; From Blessing of the Omnissiah).
    6. WC6, 18". Target visible VEHICLE takes D3 Mortal Wounds. Then select any other unit within 6" of that Vehicle. For each Mortal Wound that the Vehicle took, roll a 3+. The additional unit suffers a Mortal Wound for each success.


    Spoiler: Stratagems
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    Iron Hands Successors count as IRON HANDS.

    Mercy is Weakness: In the Shooting or Fight phase, select an enemy unit. Every IRON HANDS model in your army must target that unit if they are able to do so. When targeting that unit, whenever you roll a '6' to wound, deal two Wounds, instead. This is amazingly strong and makes Iron Hands Turn 1 very, very strong. This is also extremely brutal in the Fight phase (i.e; Using your Captains on Bikes), because for 1 CP, your attacks just deal extra wounds, which, with the right weapon, turns into double Damage. In the Shooting phase, this has potential to backfire, and you don't want every unit in your army being forced to target a particular unit. But in the Fight phase? You just have to potential to deal double Damage vs. a unit.

    Methodical Firepower: Choose an IRON HANDS unit; Devastator Doctrine is active for that unit until your next turn. Always handy.

    March of the Ancients: Once per battle. Target DREADNOUGHT gains the CHARACTER Keyword, +1 to Attacks and Leadership. As most Dreadnoughts have <9 Wounds, this means Look Out, Sir! applies, and your opponent can't hit your Dreadnought. Which is then used to spam Wisdom of the Ancients so you can spam attacks like Plasma weapons. Typically, attacks that ignore Look Out, Sir!, typically aren't very good against Dreadnoughts. This is a very reasonable Stratagem that absolutely works well. It is not a trap Stratagem for bads... The trap is running Dreadnoughts and then running them near each other so that the CHARACTER Keyword means nothing.

    Vengeance for Isstvan V: When an IRON HANDS unit makes Melee attacks vs. WORD BEARERS, IRON WARRIORS, NIGHT LORDS or ALPHA LEGION units, re-roll to hit.
    Yes. All of the above are a subset of HERETIC ASTARTES, which means that Death to the Traitors! out of the Codex does exactly the same thing. But, when you're against the above Legions, specifically, you can use both, 'cause even though they do exactly the same thing, they're named differently, which means you can use both in the same phase for extra Melee-killing of Chaos Marines.

    Wrathful Machine Spirit (2): IRON HANDS VEHICLE re-rolls to hit for a phse. For 2 CPs it's a little expensive for what it does.

    Souls of Iron (2): When an enemy PSYKER manifests a Power, if you've got an IRON HANDS unit within 24" (why wouldn't you?), roll a 4+, and the Power is shut down.

    Scion of the Forge: Target 'Sergeant' in your army can pick up Special-Issue Wargear. As previously mentioned, Haywire Bolts is a pretty big deal. In certain hands, Teeth of Mars is also a very solid weapon.

    Reject the Flesh, Embrace the Machine: IRON HANDS INFANTRY units gains Ignore Wounds (5+) for the phase. This is for Successor Chapters who bailed on the Ignore Wounds (6+) on their Infantry that doesn't really mean anything. For 1 CP this will keep your best units alive every turn, for your Successor Chapters.

    Engine Purge (2): Once per battle. Whilst the Devastator Doctrine - you can only use this on Turn 1, and if you don't, you can't - all IRON HANDS models shooting Heavy and Grenade weapons have an additional AP on a '6' to wound.
    Your Heavy weapons are already the strongest weapons in your army (generally). On Turn 1, Devastator Doctrine is active, giving all of them an additional AP-1. On Turn 1, you're Iron Hands, so your Infantry don't suffer the penalties for moving and shooting those same Heavy weapons, and, everything your army has re-roll 1s to hit, using those same Heavy weapons, and, on top of that, if you pay 2 CPs, you also have an extra AP via '6s' to wound. First turn is best turn. Even for Iron Hands, the 'balanced' Chapter. Because as soon as Turn 1 is over, you lose everything...Then again, Turn 1 wins games.

    The Gorgon's Rage: Target IRON HANDS unit gains +1 to hit in the Fight phase. Additionally, vs. EMPEROR'S CHILDREN, +1 to wound, too.
    It's good that this isn't necessarily opponent-specific, and isn't a waste of page space in most games.

    Cogitated Martyrdom: Shooting phase. Choose an IRON HANDS INFANTRY unit. If an IRON HANDS CHARACTER within 3" suffers any Damage from an attack, before rolling Ignore Wounds, you can roll a 2+. The target INFANTRY unit suffers a Mortal Wound instead.
    - CHARACTER fails their saving throw, and suffers a Wound from an attack.
    - Roll a 2+. All Damage dealt from the wound to the Character, is dealt as Mortal Wounds, to the unit. (Remember, Mortal Wounds carry over to other models).
    - The unit, can then roll Ignore Wounds.
    - Repeat for every single wound your Character suffers. Can be seen as legalised slow-playing in a game that doesn't use clocks. Luckily, in order for this to be viable, your opponent needs to be able to ignore Look Out, Sir!, and hopefully there's not a lot of that in your opponent's list.

    Machine Empathy: An IRON HANDS TECHMARINE can use Blessing of the Omnissiah twice in a single turn, pretty neat.

    Paragon of Iron: Your Warlord gets another Warlord Trait. That's where stuff like Ignore Wounds (5+), or Storm of Fire or similar might come in.

    Optimal Repulsion Doctrines: When an IRON HANDS fires Overwatch, they hit on 4+. Iron Hands Successors only hit on 5+.

    Mnemonic Auto-Savant (2):

    Bequeathed by the Iron Council: When you choose a Relic for your Iron Hands Successor Chapter, you can choose from the Relics of Medusa.


    Spoiler: Iron Father Feirros
    Show
    MASTER OF THE FORGE, TECHMARINE.

    IRON FATHER is a non-Keyword that doesn't mean anything. Feirros is not a CAPTAIN, nor is he a CHAPTER MASTER. Those Keywords actually mean things, and it doesn't matter what the fluff says, if the rules don't match. So do with that what you want to.

    Feirros is a combination of Techmarine, and Captain with Master-Crafted Heavy Bolt Rifle - but also he's not a Captain. He has a super-Heavy Bolter, and he has a fake Thunder Hammer, which, as a Techmarine, frees him from having to waste one attack using his Servo-Arm. Additionally, Iron Father Feirros has Ignore Wounds (5+) in place of an Inulnerable save...But also...

    Aura 6"; IRON HANDS INFANTRY have a 5+ Invulnerable save. Which of course includes himself.

    One IRON HANDS unit within 3" gains +1 to hit with ranged attacks. This is the Techmarine ability, but now it doesn't just apply to Vehicles, which makes it really useful.

    MASTER OF THE FORGE auto-heals Vehicles for 3 Wounds with Blessing of the Omnissiah.

    Overall, Feirros, no matter what kind of Iron Hands you play - Non-Vehicles or Vehicles - he can help your army, and it does behoove you to at least have him on your shelf which opens up powerful army builds that you can play if you want to. Feirros is great. You don't need him to win games (you already play Space Marines). But there really isn't an IRON HANDS army you can make that can't find a place for him...Unless you're spamming BIKERS...Okay, then you don't need him.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    So, list build advice:

    I haven't had time to check the BA book, so:

    What would be a good 1250 pts. list to go up against Imperial Fists? Bit specific, I know, but its for a showcase match later tonight over TTS; IF is the clear favorite because gunlines, but I hope the BA can make a good show as to not discourage newcomers. format is Strike Force, so full size table and 12 CPs / 3 detachments. Mission is likely from GT.

    Thanks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    What would be a good 1250 pts. list to go up against Imperial Fists? Bit specific, I know, but its for a showcase match later tonight over TTS; IF is the clear favorite because gunlines, but I hope the BA can make a good show as to not discourage newcomers. format is Strike Force, so full size table and 12 CPs / 3 detachments. Mission is likely from GT.
    Captain: Power Fist, Storm Shield, Death Company, Icon of the Angel - 125 Points
    (W) Chaplain; Power Fist, Soulwarden - 90 Points

    Intercessors (x5); Stalker Bolt Rifles - 100 Points
    Incursors (x5) - 105 Points
    Infiltrators (x5) - 120 Points

    Death Company Marines (x5); Power Fists (x5) - 160 Points
    Death Company Marines (x5); Power Fists (x5) - 160 Points
    Death Company Marines (x7); Power Axes (x7) - 189 Points
    Company Champion; The Burning Blade, The Imperium's Sword - 55 Points*

    Drop Pod - 70 Points
    Drop Pod - 70 Points

    Relic of the Chapter
    Hero of the Chapter - *Could trade for Rites of Battle to make Death Company ObSec.

    Total: 1244 Points | 10 CPs.
    ...Somewhere there's an Inferno Pistol for 5 Points. Doesn't matter where you put it.
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    Warhammer 40K; 2020
    Part 1 - The Death of 8th Ed.

    Spoiler: Where We Left Off
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    We left 2019 with a very, very stark meta:

    Codex: Space Marines had brought in Combat Doctrines, with a very, very strong Codex, combined with very, very strong Supplements, completely nailed the 'efficiency meta'. Where if you didn't have a lot to spend, or a lot of time to play games; You play Space Marines. Sure, there's Nurgle Daemons, Slaanesh Daemons, Orks, Tzaangors, Poxwalkers, Tyranids and Guardsmen. But who, really, in the casual end of the meta is going to blow their load buying up 120 Plaugebearers? Not many people. Only hardcore people. Hordes win games. But also nobody can afford a horde. And when you can't afford a horde, or you don't want your games taking more than 3 hours; You play an army like Craftworlds, T'au or Space Marines...And Space Marines are the best Space Marines.

    Codex: Adepta Sororitas was out...But Space Marines had already broken the game. So you could pretend to play Space Marines, except way, way worse.

    Chapter Approved '20 further broke the game, by making a lot of cheap units, even cheaper. So you had to buy new models before the edition was over. Eternal War was changed to be more progressive and force activity during the game. However, Maelstrom was changed so that you could remove half the deck, which allowed you to remove most of the Objective-based cards, and focus almost entirely on Kill Points, and when you know that most of your army's win conditions are Kill Points-based, well, building your army becomes very, very simple. And when everyone can do that, that's what the meta becomes.

    So with an extremely common army having broken the game,
    An extremely popular army having been DoA,
    And with the game's formats being utterly destroyed, let's head into 2020!



    Spoiler: January
    Show
    We start the year with Ritual of the Damned. A very strong Supplement designed to put non-Space Marine armies, onto the level of Space Marine armies. Because the game needs more of that.

    Dark Angels come out swinging. With significant buffs to Ravenwing units, mediocre buffs to Deathwing units. Ravenwing were already the strongest units in the Dark Angels Codex, and Terminators were terrible. So ultimately nothing changed. Because Dark Angels are Space Marines, and Space Marines are on top. Carry on.

    Grey Knights saw a massive improvement. Going from one of the perennial 'losers' of the entire edition, to one of the strongest Factions in the entire game - including actual Space Marines. There were no Combat Doctrines, here. Instead, there are only Masters of the Warp, a selectable buff for your entire army, until you turn it off. Very similar to maintaining Devastator Doctrine for the entire game.
    - Give your whole army re-roll 1s to wound
    - Psi weapons gain +1 Strength and Damage (WTF IS THIS!?)
    - Any of your units in terrain imposes -1 to hit on ranged attacks from your opponent
    - Smite deals +1 Mortal Wound.
    Combine this with extremely powerful Chaplain Litanies (e.g; Force and Psi weapons re-roll Damage). Bolt weapons gain +6" range on top of Bolter Discipline, remembering that every. Single. One. Of your models comes with a Storm Bolter as standard. Remember that 'efficiency meta'? **** that. Grey Knights are anti-horde as standard, too. Marines? Horde. Doesn't matter. Grey Knights are now one of the best armies in the game. In addition to "WC7. Gain a Command Point." Any unit can manifest this, because you're Grey Knights. WC7. Hand out a Chapter Master Aura. You're Grey Knights. Remember Brotherhood of Pyskers giving you +1 to manifest? All of this is ****-easy. Don't forget to add all the new Space Marine Stratagems to bring them up to par. Especially dealing half-Damage to your Dreadnoughts...Where your Dreadnoughts are some of the best units in your army. Transhuman Physiology, on Paladins!? Alright. Dynamic Insertion allows you to set up within 3" of enemy models. Sure, you can't Charge. But you can damn-sure be within Objective-grabbing range, and once you shoot your opponent off of it, you'll have it. No random Charge needed, and no risky-Fight phase where you might lose the Fight and/or Paladins don't have Objective Secured so what can they do? Shoot. Shoot hard. Shoot fast.
    Additionally, Grey Knights Techmarines now repair 2D3 Wounds. Because.

    Then finally we have Thousand Sons. Make Rubric Marines Great Again. Done. If you were a Thousand Sons player, playing in the efficiency meta, complaining that Thousand Sons shouldn't have to put ~90-odd Tzaangors on the board to be competitive...Done. You got it. These Chapter-style buffs to Thousand Sons brought a significant boon to Thousand Sons players, and they were mostly happy with what they got. However a huge problem with the Thousand Sons' buffs, was that they came packaged with the Grey Knights' rules. Insofar that anyone buying the book for Thousand Sons rules...Saw what Grey Knights got, too. In the same book.
    Rage ensues.

    Ritual of the Damned is one of the best books GW has ever written. Because everything in it, is good, or at least usable, and are straight upgrades to anything you actually might want to do. Which is mostly the theme of of what Psychic Awakening is. GW recognising that their 'first run' on most Codecies left certain army builds out in the cold, and maybe there could be some rules to make those army builds viable? Maybe one day I'll do a Let's Read of the entire Psychic Awakening fluff storyline...But for now, we're talking about the tabletop. And of course this is the single-best thing to ever happen to Grey Knights, ever. Surpassing even 5th Ed... It's a shame that the edition is currently crashing and burning because of how 2019 ended.

    LVO 2020 happens. The last major tournament of the edition.
    Harlequins out of nowhere take top spot, with Space Marines taking six out of the next 7. The final quarter-finalist, being Orks with a surprisingly 'tame' list. Consistantly proving that Orks are playable in almost every edition (except 5th). What they're not is playable in the way that the average player who 'likes' Orks, wants.

    But Space Marines taking 6 of the Top 8 at a major tournament? During an edition where competition is taken seriously? Heads are gonna roll for this.


    Spoiler: February
    Show
    The Greater Good comes out. Since T'au Empire are Space Marines, it's hard to **** them up. Just take everything that T'au already do, and make it better. Just like Ritual of the Damned did. Massive buffs to Battlesuits, which T'au have generally been missing for most of the edition, since the edition has revolved around Riptides and Shield Drones. It's nice to actually put T'au back on the table, rather than Drones, which are not T'au. Speaking of not-T'au, Kroot got buffed in almost every way - because remember those from three editions ago? So, if, for whatever reason, you're in the horde meta, and you still want to play T'au...Kroot are almost a viable way to do it. Of course a major flaw running Kroot, is that no matter what you do, they're just 'Bad Orks', and you should just play Orks. However...Some people don't like Orks...But they do like Kroot. I don't know. It definitely came off as something you can do, not something you should do. But, there it is. Is it an army build that isn't really viable in the main Codex? Welp. Psychic Awakening wants you to run Kroot, now.

    The Farsight Enclaves got another set of buffs. Which, including the buffs to Battlesuits already, just made them really, really good. However, there's a growing issue that the Missions found in CA'19 kind of sort of favour Marine-like armies. ITC soft-banning hordes doesn't help that...Once again. "We're sorry that the Codex only validates Riptides and Drones, we'll make everything else good, too."

    Then again...

    HOLY **** WTFBBQ. Space Marines take the hard nerf. Combat Doctrines is blasted into oblivion and you are now forced out of Devastator Doctrine on Turn 2. Of course, this hit Imperial Fists and Iron Hands the hardest because they need Devastator Doctrine to be in S-Tier. But it hit every Chapter, because Thunderfire Cannons and Eliminators are broken the way that the rules are written, and something really needs to be done about White Scars - yeah, White Scars - running 2x3 Eliminators and a Thunderfire Cannon. Now, Space Marine players were forced into playing the whole game. Not just sitting back on their laurels on Turn 1 and winning the game by pointing-and-clicking. Iron Hands also take a selection of nerfs, particularly around handing Invulnerable saves to Vehicles. So with Iron Hands dropping down the ranks to 'pretty good', White Scars and Raven Guard settled back to the best Chapters, but, you had to know what you were doing.

    What made Iron Hands and Imperial Fists so brutally strong, is that it required little-to-no brainpower to make a functioning list so long as you could read one - yes, one - paragraph of text, and use your logical pattern-sensing human brain to apply that to every unit in your Roster. Space Marines are still Space Marines. The meta didn't change that drastically. It's just that the two single-easiest Chapters to make work, were no longer the easiest Chapters to make work.
    "Can you read these two sentences? Is [insert unit] buffed by those two sentences? If yes, take them. If not, ignore them. If you do this Boolean process on every unit, you will have a good army. Done."

    Be aware, that Imperial Fists and Iron Hands were not on the same level to begin with. Iron Hands are amazing, and were nerfed to 'good'. Imperial Fists were 'good' and nerfed into mediocre...For Space Marines, of course. Can't stress that enough. With Space Marines nerfed to an acceptable level for GW...Space Marines can never be bad, that's bad for sales. But they can't be broken, either. 'Cause that's bad for sales too, just in a different way... Is that foreshadowing? DUN DUN DUUUNNN.
    It's just not clear why the nerf to Iron Hands took so long.


    Spoiler: March
    Show
    March saw two things:

    Prophecy of the Wolf was released. And was...Terrible. What even is this!? Okay scalper. Ignore all of that nonsense. And just sell me Ghazgkull. That's all I want. The rest of the box is horrible and bad, and bad and horrible. GW should be ashamed of themselves. A new Ragnar Blackmane, who's kind-of-okay, and you set up the box for Infiltrators - not Incursors. You've read the Codex, GW, haven't you? Why would you ever - ever - try and sell a Space Wolves kit using Infiltrators, when Incursors are on the menu?

    On the flip side; Orks get Ghazgkull...And a bunch of other models no-one cares about. Because have you seen the new Ghazgkull model? ...Yeah. That looks like the guy that has Space Marines ****ting their power armour. That's more like it. However, there are a few issues with Ghazgkull, chief among them being that - like Roboute Guilliman - he's a Monster. Except unlike Guilliman, Ghazgkull has more than 10 Wounds, which means he can be targeted. But GW saw the stupidity in this, and said that big, giant Ghazgkull, couldn't take more than 4 wounds per phase. Yes. You read that right. It's certainly possible to kill Ghazgkull in a single turn. But...Good luck with that. Perhaps more importantly, whilst Ghazgkull gives a decent enough bonus to Goffs, he doesn't take away any other Klan Kulturs, if he's in that Detachment. ****. Yes. Ghazgkull can - and should - be taken in every single Ork army now and forever...Right?

    Saga of the Beast...No. Not that one. A different Beast...It's Ghazgkull:

    Orks got a bunch of massive buffs to their Vehicles. Which set them up to participate in the efficiency meta, where what you want is a small amount of models in your army that do disproportionate amounts of damage. Because no-one's got time for hordes, and no-one's got cash for hordes. The days of putting 90 Gretchin on the board are dwindling. The days of putting 120 Ork Boyz on the board are dwindling. You can't afford to do it, and your opponents don't want you to do it. Stop it. Maybe put 60 Boyz on the board like a normal person. And use the rest of your points to put down Ghazgkull. Or Mek Gunz. Or Meganobz. Or Killa Kans.

    Space Wolves got...Sane. Stop screwing around with Beasts and Cavalry, and put Terminators back on the board! Including a few strong Relics, and the extra Concealed Positions Phobos units, Melee-Space Wolves becomes extremely strong, even without using Wulfen and/or Thunderwolf Cavalry. Oh. ...OH. Ohhh...Now Ragnar Blackmane makes sense. Yeah. Gimme. Hey Scalper, I'll take him, too. Wait? We can auto-complete Sagas to get super-Warlord Traits? Yeah okay. Don't know why that was a thing in the first place!? But now it's fixed!
    "We're sorry the Codex was trash. Here, we fixed everything."

    ...Around this time, the world goes into rolling lockdowns because a chunk of the population was getting sick. So Adepticon gets cancelled. So everyone gearing up their Grey Knights, Thousand Sons, and Dark Angels, never get to show the world how dominant those Factions really are. And so the last thing about 8th Ed. anyone will remember, is Iron Hands. Even though Space Marines - and especially Iron Hands - got nerfed, and Grey Knights, Dark Angels and Thousand Sons were buffed through the roof... Some of us remember. Even if the rest of the world, doesn't. Some of the world actually got to play with Ritual of the Damned, post-Space Marine nerfs...

    After this month, 8th Ed. falls apart completely.

    WarCom writes a terrible article about how Ghazgkull can fight anything in the game. It appears that they only went through any single fight, once, and never, not once, accounted for the fact by the time that Ghazgkull fought anything, he probably would have taken ~8 Wounds already because he can be targeted by Lascannons. Still. Ghazgkull is good. Just not as good as WarCom makes him out to be.


    Spoiler: April
    Show
    Nothing happens in April. Something, something lockdown. Australia and New Zealand get out of lockdown almost immediately, being a pair of islands so border control is really easy. They play games in peoples' houses, and **** themselves over how good Grey Knights and Dark Angels and Thousand Sons are. But with public tournaments being more-or-less cancelled, no-one can actually provide data on such things, and 40K is basically left to rot.

    Oh, Deathwatch get a Psychic Awakening update...In White Dwarf. It's just as bad as everything that ever gets printed in a White Dwarf. 'Cause if it was actually good, it'd be in a book. Mostly it's a copy-paste of everything decent out of Codex: Space Marines but now Deathwatch can use it too, since they lack the Chapter Keyword.


    Spoiler: May
    Show
    Aaand we're back.

    Engine War comes out, and with it, come some awful mechanical horses, and some awful Pteraxii models with wings...And don't forget about...*sigh*...Archaeopters. AdMech players get very upset, because aesthetically, they look terrible. Even if they like the mechanical, fire-breathing horses, they don't fit with the pre-existing AdMech armies out there. The models work... Kind of. But hype for 40K when most of the world is in lockdown is at a record low, and maybe now's not the time for new releases?

    Still, AdMech gain some powerful, adaptable Warlord Traits that you can absolutely build your army around, as well as two more pages of Stratagems, that aren't even just a copy-paste of ones from Codex: Space Marines from six months ago. Engine War even added in more generic Forge World Sub-Factions, except unlike Space Marine Successors, you're given the choice of being forced into a Primary Ability, and then from that Forge World, you can choose one of three Secondaries, each. Of course the WTF moment was when everyone read that your opponent's ranged attacks vs. your Infantry were made at -1 Strength. Holy **** what is this noise!? Then, on top of all this stuff, each Forge World has their own unique Canticle, which replaces one of your existing ones - your choice. That's right, you chose to get rid of one of those stupid Melee Canticles that you never, ever use, for free, and now your Agripnaa Infantry and Cavalry have a 5+ Astartes Banner, or your Lucius models improve their Invulnerable save and now your entire army is extremely resilient and what is even happening right now?

    ...In order to make hordes bad, you don't have to nerf them. You just make not-hordes, viable.

    Imperial and Chaos Knights receive some pretty significant buffs. However, with Psychic Awakening books giving single-Faction armies significant bonuses, putting a single Knight Castellan in your army list is very lame, now. Because we've already struck onto the winning formula; Why nerf something, when you can just make the bad stuff, better? There are no nerfs in Psychic Awakening books. Only buffs. All buffs. All the time.

    Is this Power Creep? ...Yes! Yes it absolutely is. However, with a fraction of world still playing hobby, and with only a fraction of world still buying into hobby and playing games, no-one is noticing. And I still don't think half the world even realises how good Grey Knights are.

    In Engine War, Chaos Daemons also receive significant buffs. Chief among them being the powerful new Characters that only Age of Sigmar players seemed to know about, as well as adding Heralds to Seeker Chariots. Fiends are given an extra wound, and now have Unit Champions (...wat), and Seekers of Slaanesh, gained the Daemonette Keyword...Ho. Ly. ****. Many powerful Slaanesh Stratagems that only worked on Daemonettes (the unit), now work on Seekers. Mostly, the takeaway of adding the Keyword, is that The Masque now gives Seekers -1 to hit. At this point, Slaanesh becomes as good as - if not better than - Nurgle Daemons, one of the best (Sub-)Factions in the game. Oh right. Remember how Thousand Sons are good? Tzeentch Daemons are back on the menu, too. When you start cherry-picking.

    The world doesn't pay attention. Because the world isn't paying attention.

    Chaos Daemons also all receive significant buffs to their Greater Daemons - y'know, the things that suck. But the main problem is that Greater Daemons still suck, because they're still targetable, and didn't get Ghazgkull's rule where they can only take a Fraction of their wounds in a single phase.

    Harlequins get a White Dwarf 'Psychic Awakening update'. It's okay. Nothing earth-shattering. Then again, it's coming out of a White Dwarf which means that Harlequins were already getting screwed. But it doesn't matter. Because Harlequins are already kind of pretty good in the current meta and what else could Harlequins really - really - ask for?

    With hobby drying up, WarCom posts 'Death Match' articles, because everyone knows that the game is to be taken in a vaccuum.

    WarCom announces a 'BIG' announcement. Speculation runs wild.
    - More Titanic units to be added into the game? Where are Tyranid ones? Maybe the Stompa can get an update?
    - Apocalypse sucks - both the one in Chapter Approved, and the full-scale 'side-game'. Maybe they're going to update it to be... Better.
    - Don't be stupid. It's not 9th Ed. 8th Ed. is only 3 years old. Psychic Awakening isn't even finished. 9th Ed. will be 2021. This year is too soon. We're in lockdown.
    - With lockdowns happening, maybe they're doing some kind of event that's going to keep people engaged online? Like video game version of 40K that can be played socially distanced? That would be incredibly smart. But lockdown's only just started. No way they've got something already lined up this quickly.
    - A big new campaign. Psychic Awakening is just begging for it. But starting a global campaign is pretty dumb during lockdown.
    - You guys are all dumb. No-one even likes Apocalypse. They're re-doing Apocalypse. It's the only thing that makes sense. 'BIG', geddit?

    ...Jesus. It's a 9th Ed. announcement. Around May. Sounds like an End/Start of Financial Year move... It is.

    Necrons announced as the main antagonist going forwards; Death Guard not selling, eh? Chaos too family-unfriendly? It's not like Abaddon dealt a major, crippling blow to the Imperium and is poised to do something...Dominating. Drop that storyline. It's dumb. It's Necrons now.

    Whatever GW releases now, is gloriously tainted. And no-one will remember the one month that Grey Knights dominated the game.


    Spoiler: June
    Show
    Action figures! Merch site! ...****in Hell. GW announces an App for army building! And this one will have points! (spoiler alert, it's December as of time of writing, and it still doesn't work)

    War of the Spider comes out:
    - Death Guard get broken.
    - Custodes get broken.
    - I guess Fabius Bile is back in canon?

    No-one even cares because 8th Ed. is dead.

    Whilst trying to release War of Spider, WarCom is already hard at work invalidating it and telling you about 9th Ed. and Indomitus.

    In the most terrible release ever, GW unleashes Pariah:
    Reprinting the Inquisition rules from White Dwarf, and issuing rules for models, from a book written in 1999.

    Pariah is notable for how it made everyone angry. For a book with that title, you'd expect Necrons to come out swinging. But of course they don't because Necrons are already announced as first out of the gate for 9th Ed., so what's even the point? Why does this book exist? It's got updated rules for Illuminor Szeras which will literally be invalidated in only a few months from now?

    After everything great about 8th Edition, including all of Psychic Awakening (and excluding Pariah), 8th Ed. goes out with a whimper. Nobody will even remember what Psychic Awakening did for the game, because no-one was actually around to play it.

    I guess 8th Ed. kind of existed for two and a half years, then Iron Hands ruined the game, then it was over.

    Remember three near-identical Imperial Guard Brigade/Blood Angels Battalion/Knight Castellan lists winning a major GT? Remember Craftworlds going 6/8 at a major GT? Remember Custodes with 27 Dawneagle Jetbikes? Remember seeing 120 Plaguebearers on the board? Remember Tyranid Conga-Lines and total board-denial? Remember so many viable ways to play the game and that GW changed it constantly? Does anyone remember Grey Knights and Slaanesh Daemons were the actual ruiners of 8th Ed., not Iron Hands?

    ...Nah. It was all Iron Hands. Yeah. **** Space Marines. Guard did not dominate for 6-12 months (depending on your reckoning), and neither did Plaguebearers. Alaitoc Planes are a myth. Knight Castellans are fake news. No-one would even put 150 Termagants on the board. It was all Iron Hands. All the time. Yeah. That's what we'll remember.

    "**** Space Marines." It never gets old because it never is old. Everything old is new.

    A lot happened in 8th Ed. Primarily because it was an edition where GW took an active role in the competition portion of the game, forcing the game to change constantly.
    ...For better and worse:

    Better:
    The meta was never stale or stable. With two major Erratas per year, plus Chapter Approved, the meta would take a hard shift roughly three times per year. Plus, each time a (good) Codex was released, the meta was forced to change on top of that. So no single army or Faction ever stayed 'on top' for long. There was always a reason to keep playing. Don't worry about any one thing, 'cause there's no way that GW wont nerf something if it gets out of hand. Sure, Power Creep is kind of real. But compared to <7th Ed., GW is really keeping it in their pants this edition, and when they accidentally whip it out, they're usually pretty good about putting it back in. Just wait a month or two. It will be fine.
    (Though it was clear that Iron Hands was broken on Day 1. No idea why took it them ~5 months to fix it...Oh wait I do...)

    Worse;
    - Don't buy anything, because the on-release review of a rule could be shafted in two months. All 'reviews' are wrong. Don't trust anyone. The only safe option is to wait. Wait for someone to go through the Codex with a fine-tooth comb to see what seems 'too' broken and likely to be nerfed. Anything that seems too good, probably is. The hype train is a hype train. The only winning move is to wait for the Codex, and even then, be wary.
    - Always keep buying everything. With the meta changing 2-3+ times per year, you need to constantly change your army to keep up. This meant that it was very easy to 'fall behind' the rest of your meta. By the time you've got around to actually buying the new hotness...It's been ~3 months, your hotness has been nerfed, and there's a new, new hotness, your information is already old, and you're behind again, and the rest of your meta has already ploughed ahead.


    ...Tune in sometime next week for the run-down of the launch of 9th Ed.
    It's a doozy.
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  26. - Top - End - #686
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions




    looks... rather uneven, but well 40k box sets have always been weirdly balanced. New lelith being fully armored sucks, special sister having only a pistol probably sucks too.

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    You call that fully armored?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
    You call that fully armored?
    her whole deal was refusing to wear armor because she was so good she didnt need any; thats why her save is crap but her inv. is decent. If they wanted to cover her up due to SJWs, they could've done it with something that didnt look like armor; they could even make it less form fitting so it would appease their woke targets even more.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    looks... rather uneven, but well 40k box sets have always been weirdly balanced. New lelith being fully armored sucks, special sister having only a pistol probably sucks too.
    I feel like the vehicle is throwing it more heavily in the Sister's favor. And yes, just having a Plasma Pistol makes her a less appealing model.

    Dark Eldar vs SoB is a very odd matchup though.

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    You call that fully armored?
    For a Deldar Witch? Yes.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    her whole deal was refusing to wear armor because she was so good she didnt need any; thats why her save is crap but her inv. is decent. If they wanted to cover her up due to SJWs, they could've done it with something that didnt look like armor; they could even make it less form fitting so it would appease their woke targets even more.
    have you scrolled down to the slaanesh stuff, that is lower down, on the exact same page?

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