Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

[Avaris]

her whole deal was refusing to wear armor because she was so good she didnt need any; thats why her save is crap but her inv. is decent. If they wanted to cover her up due to SJWs, they could've done it with something that didnt look like armor; they could even make it less form fitting so it would appease their woke targets even more.

Comparing to the previous version, literally the only difference in the ‘armour’ is a bit more cloth around her thighs. All the armour on her legs and shoulder was there previously.

Also, as LeSwordfish says, if they were catering to your fictional understanding of what ‘SJWs’ want, they wouldn’t be releasing those Slannesh models. Meanwhile, in reality rather than your head, the ‘SJW’ groups I am a member of are celebrating those Slannesh models as a great example of how to do things which are alluring in the Slannesh style without just being ‘lol bewbs’.

[Destro_Yersul]

Yeah, looking at close ups of that mini, the top she's wearing is clearly not armour. It's just painted the same colour. The only thing they've done is re-posed her and given her pants under the leg armour.

[Cheesegear]

It's not a secret. Drukhari are my favourite Faction. They just suck on the table. And when they finally got good for the first time since 5th Ed., what made them good was Haemonculus Covens. Not my favourite part of the Drukhari part of the trio. Then Drazhar got re-realesed as part of Psychic Awakening, and his model looked sick (but I really wish they'd kept the Praying Mantis aesthetic). But, unfortunately, he still sucked. So still no playing Drukhari for me.

But since we're pooping our pants.

Lelith Hesperax

Spoiler: Current Model

Show

She's ripped. Great. If I could convince my girlfriend to grow her hair longer and dye it red...Okay. Wrong train of thought...

Her left arm is fully armoured, which is a real style. But she is presented in a right-handed guard. Great model, posed incorrectly.
The model doesn't wear shoes. I know what the designer thought they were going for. But that's not how it works. Gymnasts and athletes wear socks all the time, since at the very least it gives better grip. Then of course you have ballerinas, who, when doing constant spinny-**** and complex feet maneuvers, as it is heavily shown that Lelith Hesperax, does, if you break your toes, it's game over. For Lelith Hesperax's fluff, she should be wearing footwear. As someone who goes on regular hikes, footwear is one of the most important things you own...And Lelith is on a battlefield. Ow I feel for her arches.
Finally, I have an issue with a Gladiator leaving their femoral artery exposed.

Spoiler: New Lelith

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Her face is now more broad, because CAD can't do faces - especially elfin ones.
Her cleavage is not only bigger, but a more pronounced part of the model. Umm...No. I know a lot of athletic women. That's...Not how it really goes. Also, in a subsequent image, it looks like they've highlighted one of her nips... Sure.

Her hair, whilst always having been impractical, is even more impractical and stupid.
At least she's now left-side forwards (or rather, armoured side forwards), but they've changed the pose so that it doesn't even matter anymore.
She still isn't wearing footwear, but now her pose means her arches are ****ed and she's definitely going to break her toes when she lands.
Her femoral artery is no longer exposed.

In a lot of ways, the new model is an improvement over the current one.
In a lot of ways, the new model is a marked downgrade over the current one.

Overall, I prefer the current one. I should buy one soon while I still can, then. But also...No?
If the Drukharii Codex isn't good, then 40K is done for for the forseeable future until Orks or Craftworlds get a Codex. Why would I buy a Hesperax for a game I don't play?
If the Drukharii Codes is good, then by the time I know that, the current Lelith will be discontinued.

EDIT: She's out of stock.

[LeSwordfish]

The old one's face looks rather less good if you rotate it to be face-on like the new one.

[Cheesegear]

The [current] one's face looks rather less good if you rotate it to be face-on like the new one.

It's still better than the new one.
Look at the nose, mouth and eyebrow ridge. If you're only looking at the jawline, you're not seeing the face.

[LeSwordfish]

I'm not sure I like the change of expression (and pose in general) from "poised and ready" to "snarling and attacking" but it seems silly to look at those two images and go "damn, CAD has ruined their ability to do good faces."

[Cheesegear]

but it seems silly to look at those two images and go "damn, CAD has ruined their ability to do good faces."

It's 25/28mm scale; Hands/Weapon, Face, Feet.
The face/head is the second-most important part of the model. They can't do faces anymore. So they do hair and helmets, instead. When you know that that's what they're doing, it becomes real obvious every time they do it.

Just went to check the new Hedonite stuff. Yep. Every model has gubbins on their face, and the ones that don't, look bad.

[LeSwordfish]

It's 25/28mm scale; Hands/Weapon, Face, Feet.

The face/head is the second-most important part of the model.

...if you think that the feet are the third most important part of a 28mm model, then that's between you, a consenting partner, and your internet search history.

[Cheesegear]

...if you think that the feet are the third most important part of a 28mm model, then that's between you, a consenting partner, and your internet search history.

Hands, Head, Feet. In that order.
The main torso of a miniature is almost always obscured (by the hands or a weapon) and thus isn't as important as getting the part of the model, that connects to the base, right. Because that's what you can see. Capes and Banners are extraordinarily eye-catching parts of models. But not every model will have those, and Capes can only almost always be seen from behind, and thus aren't great from a model design perspective.

My guess that is good feet are important because they connect to the base, so you see them.

Heroic Scale
Heroic scale proportions for miniatures
The miniature looks similar to the original model, but every body part is exaggerated to make the miniature wider. The head of the miniature is about 1/6 of the size of the whole miniature. The face takes up a larger part of the head, the eye-level is usually up to 2/3 instead of the 1/2 line compared to the head. The hands, feet and weapons are bigger (about 2-3 times as thick as they would normally be). Heroic scale was created to make minis easier to paint, and to make it easier to produce models with the technology of the time. According to Reaper Miniatures company, the term "Heroic scale" was first used in 1999 by Ed Pugh of Reaper Miniatures to describe the look of their Dark Heaven Legend miniatures in one of their publications, although the phrase might have been used even before that.

Emphasis mine.
Yeah. It has to do with the scale (25/28). Most people will see the feet. That's why it's important.

So, yes.
When I critique a model. It will be head, hands and feet. Just like the scale of the model asks for.

[hamishspence]

Just went to check the new Hedonite stuff. Yep. Every model has gubbins on their face, and the ones that don't, look bad.

IMO New Sigvald's face looks slightly better than Old Sigvald's.

[LeSwordfish]

Hands, Head, Feet. In that order.
The main torso of a miniature is almost always obscured (by the hands or a weapon) and thus isn't as important as getting the part of the model, that connects to the base, right. Because that's what you can see. Capes and Banners are extraordinarily eye-catching parts of models. But not every model will have those, and Capes can only almost always be seen from behind, and thus aren't great from a model design perspective.

My guess that is good feet are important because they connect to the base, so you see them.



Emphasis mine.
Yeah. It has to do with the scale (25/28). Most people will see the feet. That's why it's important.

So, yes.
When I critique a model. It will be head, hands and feet. Just like the scale of the model asks for.

Nothing in this looks like "feet are important", just that they're bigger than usual to match the heroic scale of the hands?

Also, wow, gubbins? On slaanesh models? You might be on to something, needless extras doesn't sound like slaanesh at all!

[Cheesegear]

IMO New Sigvald's face looks slightly better than Old Sigvald's.

That's subjective. But of course I agree with you.

New!Sigvald is also a Monstrous-sized character, giving the printers/cutters more room to work with. If we treat Monsters as 54mm scale, GW shouldn't be screwing them up.

Nothing in this looks like "feet are important", just that they're bigger than usual to match the heroic scale of the hands?

That's exactly what that means, though.
Feet are bigger. Most people, are more likely to notice them, because they are bigger.
If people are more likely to notice something, it's more important to design it well.
Hence why GW is putting garbage on people's faces and making dumb helmets, to distract you from the faces that they can't do. The head is like to be the second thing you notice.

Now, if the head and feet aren't the second thing and third thing you, LeSwordfish notice, well done. But they are the details that most people will look to. Then when you read up on how 25/28mm is designed the way it is "Head, Hands and Feet are bigger than normal proportions." ...Huh. That's maybe why people notice. Because it looks odd. People notice because that's what people are going to notice. Because human pattern-recognition brain.

[LeSwordfish]

That's subjective. But of course I agree with you.

New!Sigvald is also a Monstrous-sized character, giving the printers/cutters more room to work with. If we treat Monsters as 54mm scale, GW shouldn't be screwing them up.



That's exactly what that means, though.
Feet are bigger. Most people, are more likely to notice them, because they are bigger.
If people are more likely to notice something, it's more important to design it well.
Hence why GW is putting garbage on people's faces and making dumb helmets, to distract you from the faces that they can't do. The head is like to be the second thing you notice.

Now, if the head and feet aren't the second thing and third thing you, LeSwordfish notice, well done. But they are the details that most people will look to. Then when you read up on how 25/28mm is designed the way it is "Head, Hands and Feet are bigger than normal proportions." ...Huh. That's maybe why people notice. Because it looks odd. People notice because that's what people are going to notice. Because human pattern-recognition brain.

I've never once heard anyone say that the feet are especially important - and I remember reading GW modelling articles that specifically highlight the importance of head and hands. Which I would agree with! I just think that "the feet are slightly bigger, so people will always see them more, they were always intended to be more important, so GW puts a lot of effort into them" is... not correct? I think once again you're making something up? Apart from anything else, why bother, when 99/100 models are just wearing shoes? Shoes that in most cases look just like the rest of their armour.

[Lord Torath]

Got a GW gift card for Christmas. Has anyone used the Assembly handle? How did it work? Is it worth $21?

[Cheesegear]

Apart from anything else, why bother, when 99/100 models are just wearing shoes? Shoes that in most cases look just like the rest of their armour.

See that? That's great. It means that when someone doesn't wear shoes, you'll notice.

But okay, we'll do it your way, and not critique heroic scale miniatures by their big head, hands and big feet.

Spoiler: Oh...Now I Get It

Show

...Is that what you see? Because that's how I look at the model:
Head, hands and feet.
Then everything else.
Because that's how heroic scale models are designed.

Got a GW gift card for Christmas. Has anyone used the Assembly handle? How did it work? Is it worth $21?

I have the old paint handle.
I have the old paint handle from last Christmas, which is the old paint handle, but red.
And I have a large paint handle.
I don't like the new paint handle, and from the reviews I've watched of people using it, they aren't holding it by the handle, and then saying that it's good.

I've never used the assembly handle. I'm not really quite sure how it works.

[LeSwordfish]

See that? That's great. It means that when someone doesn't wear shoes, you'll notice.

But okay, we'll do it your way, and not critique heroic scale miniatures by their big head, hands and big feet.

Spoiler: Oh...Now I Get It

Show

...Is that what you see? Because that's how I look at the model.

what the **** are you talking about man

i even said i agreed that the head and hands were important

Got a GW gift card for Christmas. Has anyone used the Assembly handle? How did it work? Is it worth $21?

The one with the arms? I like the basic painting handle and don't regret purchasing that, but I'm not sure i feel the need for something to hold model bits in place - up to you if you feel like that's something you've got a use for.

[Cheesegear]

i even said i agreed that the head and hands were important

Okay then.
And I'm adding feet. And I showed you evidence for why I think that way, based on how 25/28mm are designed. Based on the design principles, what do I think?
You were the one who ad hominem'd me, saying that I need a consenting partner and an internet search.
I know exactly why I think the feet are important.

In most cases, you are right, when all Space Marines wear space-boots, all feet look the same. What's there to critique? Move on. But I know you've noticed Veridyan's shoes. When things are not the same. They stand out. You just don't notice it because most things are the same. So when someone doesn't wear shoes, it's worthy of critique, because it stands out. Because it's supposed to. Because that's how the heroic proportions work.

"If Lelith wore shoes, she'd be the same as everyone else. So that's why she wears no shoes."

Essentially, a model needs to be unique, or it isn't a good model. I agree. That's what the hair is. Maybe differentiate her weapons up like Drazhar's? Maybe have her on a different base that Succubi and Wyches wont be on - that's covered. Even if Lelith had shoes on, I'm pretty sure I could differentiate her model on a tabletop by all the other things she has going on.

[LeSwordfish]

Okay then.
And I'm adding feet. And I showed you evidence for why I think that way, based on how 25/28mm are designed. Based on the design principles, what do I think?

Evidence for why you think something is, isn't the same as evidence for why that thing actually is. I get your logic, I just don't think thats sufficient to support your conclusion over the null hypothesis, which in this case is "the feet aren't that important". GW's miniature designers have done plenty of interviews and such - is there any mention of the feet as a focal point (as opposed to merely being heroic scale) in those?

You were the one who ad hominem'd me, saying that I need a consenting partner and an internet search.
I know exactly why I think the feet are important

It's been a while since I did my Critical Thinking A-level, but I think this was less ad hominem than reductio ad absurdum, or possibly just a joke.

[Cheesegear]

Evidence for why you think something is, isn't the same as evidence for why that thing actually is. I get your logic, I just don't think thats sufficient to support your conclusion over the null hypothesis. Just think you've come to a conclusion that is less well supported than the null hypothesis, which in this case is "the feet aren't that important".

Fair enough.
I don't like the fact that Lelith doesn't wear shoes, because knowing what I know, not wearing shoes is more likely to lead to disaster, than not. And her not wearing shoes is the third thing I noticed because that's how my brain evaluates models based on heroic proportions the fact that she's not wearing shoes, makes her stand out against other Drukhari.

I don't like when Space Marines don't wear helmets. Same reason. Based on what I know about fictional Space Marines (and the Inquisitor game with Captain Artemis, and all of Deathwatch RPG), a Space Marine's only vulnerable location is their head. I'm going to complain about it every time.

I'm going to complain about Lelith not wearing shoes.

[Blackhawk748]

The old one's face looks rather less good if you rotate it to be face-on like the new one.

I don't know, she looks incredibly unimpressed with everyone around her.

Seems perfect

[Brookshw]

...David Bowie? Is that you?

[Lord Torath]

I have the old paint handle.
I have the old paint handle from last Christmas, which is the old paint handle, but red.
And I have a large paint handle.
I don't like the new paint handle, and from the reviews I've watched of people using it, they aren't holding it by the handle, and then saying that it's good.

I've never used the assembly handle. I'm not really quite sure how it works.

The one with the arms? I like the basic painting handle and don't regret purchasing that, but I'm not sure i feel the need for something to hold model bits in place - up to you if you feel like that's something you've got a use for.

I'll admit that there are times (like when gluing devastators together) that a third or fourth hand might be useful. Still not sure about this thing, though.

I'm also picking up a bunch of Jump Packs and the Deathwatch upgrade sprue. My current assault marines began life as metal Blood Claws and Death Company, and thus lack jump packs. I've given them to the sergeants already, but I think the rest of the squads could use the upgrade. And since I've started playing Deathwatch (RPG), I think it'd be cool to have minis painted up with the shoulder pads.

[LeSwordfish]

I'm going to be doing a Pub Quiz for my warhammer group at some point in the future. A neat idea i've had for a round is references to warhammer in popular culture - except, what i'm looking for is out-of-universe references to the game and the Hobby, not in-universe references (like the devilfish in the background of a marvel comic).

For example:

• "She dropped a space marine!" "Huh, no proper drybrushing." from Bad Machinery.
• A copy of white dwarf visible on the table in an episode of Being Human.
• In space there is tons of blood, skulls, and ennui from Rick and Morty.

Can anyone think of any others?

[Thragka]

In Archer S5 E12, while Cyril is temporarily the president of San Marcos, he directs the loyalists to defeat the rebels using "a classic pincer movement. Just like Hannibal at the battle of Cannae. And also Keith, in my Warhammer guild."

[Brookshw]

Ctrl Alt Del has had a number of them, just Google "Ctrl Alt Del Warhammer" and you'll get plenty of results.
I always liked this one.

[Avaris]

I'm going to be doing a Pub Quiz for my warhammer group at some point in the future. A neat idea i've had for a round is references to warhammer in popular culture - except, what i'm looking for is out-of-universe references to the game and the Hobby, not in-universe references (like the devilfish in the background of a marvel comic).

For example:

• "She dropped a space marine!" "Huh, no proper drybrushing." from Bad Machinery.
• A copy of white dwarf visible on the table in an episode of Being Human.
• In space there is tons of blood, skulls, and ennui from Rick and Morty.

Can anyone think of any others?

Very old reference, but the children’s tv show Bernard’s Watch had Warhammer appearing a few times. Never specifically referred to as such, but I distinctly recall there being a poster with miniatures on it, and in one episode where Bernard breaks his leg or something he freezes time while he is healing and spends it playing with Warhammer minis. Which honestly, goals.

Edit: if anyone is interested, the episode here, from about 9:20 https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x55flj7

[Wraith]

Henry Cavill (aka, DC movies' Superman or Netflix' Geralt from The Witcher) plays Custodes. Not necessarily an 'in universe' reference, but he/Superman/The Witcher are famous enough that you could probably phrase a questions like, "What army does Geralt of Rivera play?".

Ready Player One features a Warhound Titan (approx. 1:09 in this clip, right in the middle of the horizon). There's also supposed to be an Aeldari Aspect Warrior in there somewhere, but so much crap goes whizzing by that I couldn't tell you when or where.

British pop band Take That cosplay'd as Rogue Traders in their video for 'Kidz'.

There's a bunch of references in the video game Stellaris. From direct references such as tech-advances called Standard Template Constructs to more generic ones like factions being named "The Great Devourer" and achievements like "Suffer Not The Alien To Live" (which is the formal motto of the Deathwatch. See a full annotated list here, just Ctrl+F for 'warhammer' and you'll get a couple-dozen.

These Guys also make a special guest appearance in The Last Of Us 2.

Penny Arcade has Opinions on what does and does not constitute a Warhammer reference. Also about when you should use abilities.

If you flip the premise - pop culture references made in the Warhammer/40k universe - you'll definitely get WAY more suggestions, though.

[LeSwordfish]

Thanks for all the suggestions! My intention is to use the warhammer connection to essentially do a pop culture round, so Archer, CAD, Bernard's Watch, and Henry Cavill should go down very well. I'm probably going to name it "Waaagh, Mr Bond."

[Razgriez]

So, got some essentials for 9th (Core Rules, Codex: Marines, fresh painting supplies, Outriders, Assault Intercessors, Primaris Tigurius) courtesy of Christmas gifts.

Some things I discovered not discussed before:

1. The Heavy Bolt Pistols that were surrendered by the Reivers and after being re-barrelled, cleaned and re-issued to Assault Intercessors and several HQ choices have improved ranged now. The Primaris Power Creep is real, and even Primaris are not immune to being Primaris'd. Ok, not entirely true. Since Assault Intercessors do not have the advantage of mobility without taking a transport, slowing your march down just to launch small number of "long-range" pistol shots is not good idea. But it is nice if you have no better movement option. At least Reivers still have their bag of tricks and improved AP on their new "Special-Issue" Bolt Pistols.

2. Outriders are the definitive replacement for Jump pack Assault Squads. Outriders may cost more than double the initial points of Assault Squad models, and Assault Squads have a couple of gimmicks to help them. But Outriders do what Assault Squads used to do: Smash into infantry, and tear them apart. Except, even when they can't reach charge range they're still spitting out a decent amount of Bolter rounds. And then there's the fact that as Assault Specialists, Assault Squads have a pathetic 1A stat. Hilariously, Assault Squads probably do better now as anti-light/medium vehicle unit. Too bad there's far better choices for that though. Like Melta-gun armed Bike Squads. Or Eradicators.

3. I can't say I'm a fan of GW deciding to force the use of Codex Supplements and/or the 40k App. Having been spoiled for years of not needing additional books to play Ultramarines, I was a bit nonplussed at seeing the 9th Codex completely devoid of any Space Marine special characters. Reminds me of some of the things I hate about video game DLC practices from certain reviled "AAA" publishers.

[Avaris]

3. I can't say I'm a fan of GW deciding to force the use of Codex Supplements and/or the 40k App. Having been spoiled for years of not needing additional books to play Ultramarines, I was a bit nonplussed at seeing the 9th Codex completely devoid of any Space Marine special characters. Reminds me of some of the things I hate about video game DLC practices from certain reviled "AAA" publishers.

I’m in two minds about this. On the one hand, I’m ok with stopping an already lengthy codex getting even longer through including stuff for a specific subfaction. Either the main codex gets really long, or whichever subfaction gets rolled into it doesn’t get as much stuff compared to the others, and feels a bit like a poor cousin. I quite like having different subfactions focussed on different things, as it suits my collecting style: I have small armies of a lot of different subfactions, rather than focussing on one.

On the other hand, I wish there were special characters available to any chapter. Maybe as a named personality, or as an archetype. The different add ons you can give to captains etc help a bit with this, but having stuff you can get just from the main codex would be nice. The way NOT to do it is what you see in things like the Sisters codex, where Judith is tied to a specific subfaction, and none of the others have anyone, which really frustrates when deciding which scheme to go with.