Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

[Cheesegear]

Ok, not entirely true. Since Assault Intercessors do not have the advantage of mobility without taking a transport

Any unit you want, can Outflank.

Outriders are the definitive replacement for Jump pack Assault Squads.

What happened to Incursors?
Did Vanguard Veterans get obliterated when I wasn't looking?

Outriders may cost more than double the initial points of Assault Squad models

...I'll just let that say what it says.

And then there's the fact that as Assault Specialists, Assault Squads have a pathetic 1A stat.

Assault Squads have never been what they say on the tin. Not in any edition that I can remember, ever.
I'm actually kind of amazed that GW made a unit worse than Assault Marines.

Hilariously, Assault Squads probably do better now as anti-light/medium vehicle unit.

So does anything in the Space Marines book. That's also why Reivers are also a non-unit.
See that job you do? Any unit does the same thing, better.

I can't say I'm a fan of GW deciding to force the use of Codex Supplements and/or the 40k App.

They didn't force you to do anything.
"You can still Tactical Marines."

Having been spoiled for years of not needing additional books to play Ultramarines, I was a bit nonplussed at seeing the 9th Codex completely devoid of any Space Marine special characters. Reminds me of some of the things I hate about video game DLC practices from certain reviled "AAA" publishers.

First, Rules Bloat. The current Codex is 207 Pages. It's not only rules bloat. But fluff bloat, too. If it's in the Codex, there has to be fluff about it. Whatever GW can remove from the Codex, I'm happy for them to do it (except for Centurions and Devastators...But that bell has been rung).

A big problem with Sub-Factions, is that most people only use one, and even the people that do Sub-Faction hop, get frowned at in their local metas. But, a problem with Space Marines, specifically, is that by 8th Ed., GW had differentiated the Chapters so hard that each of them are almost unique Factions. Not really...But also kind of*. Which means that when it comes to Space Marine Chapters there's going to be a lot of **** that some people just wont use... Hell, I bet there's someone out there who really, really likes Assault Squads. So with that in mind, GW has set up a system where people only need to buy what they want. It partially mitigates the rules bloat? Kind of. But I think mostly what it does is downplays the "Space Marines are Space Marines." problem that's prevalent in the community, so GW might be trying to do damage control, by calling each Chapter, a unique Faction. It doesn't work, of course. But maybe that's what they're trying to do?

I can see why they did it. I think.
I don't think it's just about removing content and then selling it back to you - although it does feel ****ty.

I genuinely think GW hit the wall, regarding rules bloat. But that their solution wasn't to delete content.

*They get twice as many Stratagems, Relics and Warlord Traits as anyone else! Not to mention unique Characters.

[Destro_Yersul]

Hell, I bet there's someone out there who really, really likes Assault Squads.

There is. It's me.

[Lord Torath]

I like tactical squads, too! (But I'm a filthy worse-than-casual who hasn't tried a new edition since 4th).

[LansXero]

Anyone feel like playing over TTS? :D

[JNAProductions]

Anyone feel like playing over TTS? :D

I have that, but don't have all the models for it. I can't find sufficient stuff.

But yes.

[LansXero]

Anything besides whats in here:

https://github.com/TTSWarhammer40k/B...od-Compilation

that you're missing?

[JNAProductions]

Anything besides whats in here:

https://github.com/TTSWarhammer40k/B...od-Compilation

that you're missing?

Not sure-never got that working.

[LansXero]

Well, if anyone wants to try and get a game over TTS or needs pointers about how to get to it, let me know :D

[Cheesegear]

Once upon a time, I had a series called 'Building on a Budget', where, just because you're a new player, or a player with a budget, it doesn't mean you have to have a **** list. To that end, a frugal person, or someone who lives in a country where hobby is ludicrously expensive for no reason (and that was before potential recession and en masse job losses), insofar as that it actually pays to read your Codex, before you buy your models. That way you know what you're buying, and what you're getting yourself into.

However, in this hobby, some people don't believe that's a thing. If you have a good army, you should 'just play down', in order to appease someone else. No different to a competitive player telling a new kid to 'Get Good'. Because the only way to do either of those things, is to buy new models. If you have x5 Raven Guard Centurions, those Centurions, aren't anything else. In order to replace those Centurions, that player actually has to have models to replace those Centurions, with.

But, Space Marines/9, is the new Craftworlds/7. In earnest, there are only two truly bad units in the Codex - Assault Squads and Reivers. As long as you don't build your army around those, you'll be fine. Additionally, there are a number of 'not as good' units in the Codex, that, even though the internal balance is off, those units are still better than a lot of units found in other Factions anyway. To the point where Space Marines are Just Better than other armies. And, even if you take some of the worst units in the book, you will still win games because that's just how broken Space Marines - and the meta, in general - is, and there's nothing you can do about it because you're already 'playing down' as hard as you can...But also if you're spending money wisely, you can't play down, because you can't buy other models.

So I worked myself into a shoot. I busted out the Excel Spreadsheet of all the models/units I own, I grouped them into good and bad units. Then I grouped the bad units into the worst units I own without making list-building errors or intentionally giving models overpriced and terrible wargear, and I came up with the following legal list:

Spoiler: As Bad As It Gets

Show

Imperial Fists, Battalion
Hero of the Chapter
Relic of the Chapter
Sentinel of Terra

(W) Captain in Phobos Armour; Stealth Adept, Hand of Dorn, The Vox Espiritum - 95 Points
Lieutenant in Phobos Armour; Storm of Fire, The Armour Indomitus - 80 Points

Intercessors (x5); AGL, Auto Bolt Rifles, Auto Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 105 Points
Intercessors (x5); AGL, Auto Bolt Rifles, Auto Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 105 Points
Intercessors (x5); AGL, Bolt Rifles, Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 105 Points

Scouts (x5); Boltguns, Heavy Bolter, Storm Bolter & Chainsword - 85 Points
Scouts (x5); Boltguns, Heavy Bolter, Storm Bolter & Chainsword - 85 Points
Scouts (x5); Missile Launcher, Sniper Rifles (x4) - 93 Points
Terminator Squad (x5); Cyclone Missile Launcher, Chainfists (x2), Teleport Homer - 220 Points
Terminator Squad (x5); Cyclone Missile Launcher, Chainfists (x2), Teleport Homer - 220 Points
Contemptor Dreadnought - 150 Points

Inceptors (x4) - 160 Points

Hellblasters (x5); Heavy Plasma Incinerators - 165 Points
Hellblasters (x5); Heavy Plasma Incinerators - 165 Points
Hellblasters (x5); Heavy Plasma Incinerators - 165 Points

Total: 1998 Points | 9+D3 CPs

I cannot play a worse army than this. Additionally, I 'like' every model in this army, with the exception of the Lieutenant. In my own brain, I'm trying to decide what's worse; Shootynators, Contemptors or Inceptors. I really can't decide. Party because of the way Imperial Fists interact with Bolt weapons. Like maybe I should have three Contemptors, instead? But I also feel that for a unit that's 220 Points, with 'only' a 5+ Invulnerable, the bonus to Storm Bolters is mitigated by the fact that Terminators are still pretty bad.

So I put the word out that I was chasing a game. Preferably someone who was either new to 9th Ed., or just starting a new army in 9th Ed. And that I was going to run 'the worst list I can make.' Not that I gave out my army list - that would be cheating.

Lo and behold. I get a Necron opponent. Great. Necrons are a 9th Ed. Faction with a Codex. So we're on the same level, rules-wise. Let's see what he's running:

Spoiler: Necrons

Show

Necrons, Battalion
(From Memory)

Skorpeh Lord
Lord; Warscythe, Rez Orb
Plasmancer
+ Cryptothralls (x2)

Necron Warriors (x10)
Necron Warriors (x10)
Necron Warriors (x10)

Cryptek Reanimator
Deathmarks (x5)
Deathmarks (x5)

Skorpekh Destroyers (x5)
+ Canoptek Plasmacyte

Skorpekh Destroyers (x4)
+ Canoptek Plasmacyte

Canoptek Scrab Swarms (x5)
Canoptek Scrab Swarms (x4)

Lokhust Destroyers (x5)
Lokhust Destroyers (x4)

2000 Points on the dot if I remember right.

Looks like this guy's bought an Indomitus box and one or two Elite Editions, then he's brought in a ****ton of Destroyers to kill Space Marines, and two boxes of Deathmarks because Snipers are real good, 'cause not every Faction has Bodyguards yet, and "Can't be targeted by ranged attacks." isn't a thing that most Factions have - yet.

Vital Intelligence. I didn't know how well I was going to be able to destroy Necrons with my pile of garbage (you can't take Kill Point Secondaries if your army sucks, your army list determines everything about the entire game), so I went:
Engage on all Fronts
Deploy Scramblers
Oaths of Moment

He chose:
Grind Them Down
Investigate Sites
Engage on All Fronts
(Are all the Necron Secondaries terrible?)

It was an okay game. Not a lot either of us could do to the other because both our armies are kind of terrible. So we kind of moved around the board and we only shot at units that actually tried to do anything or on an Objective.

I score exactly 15/45 on the Primary Objective, and then 11 / 10 / 14 for 35/40. For a total of 50 VPs on the dot. Nice. My Secondaries were worth more than twice the Primary. What a game.
He got 44. 24 off of his Secondaries and 20 off of the Primary.

He was mad when I said my Captain was immune to ranged attacks, making his Deathmarks real sad. Although that's only what, 200 Points?
Lokhust Destroyers are just as good as when I spammed them in 8th Ed.
Not really a fan of Skorpekhs. The Reanimator I destroyed on Turn 1, so I don't know what it was supposed to do, but whatever it did, it didn't do it.

As predicted, I would finish the game, ultimately concerned that I was right. This was the worst list I own, and I would still win against beginners. However I don't think I won 'convincingly'. So more proof* is needed.


* I don't need to 'test', I know my list is better than most other Factions already - especially beginner and budget lists. However nobody will believe me unless I throw down.

[Destro_Yersul]

I don't know what the worst list I can make is. I'm pretty sure it's worse than yours, but that's also because the only Primaris anything I own is what's in the Indomitus box. Everything else is from 4th edition, and I've never sold any of my models. I have a pile of tactical marines, mostly. Ten man assault squad. Assault terminators. Land Raider Crusader. I could put all the tacticals in Rhinos?

[Cheesegear]

I don't know what the worst list I can make is.

I don't know why you would try. I was able to do it because I have spreadsheets. So when I'm making army lists I can just drag and drop.

I'm pretty sure it's worse than yours

The whole point is that my (arguably) worst list is going to be better than most peoples' normal lists, and there's actually nothing I can do about that without deliberately playing badly or handicapping myself, and that isn't my fault - it's GW's for writing Space Marines so strong.

[Forum Explorer]

Once upon a time, I had a series called 'Building on a Budget', where, just because you're a new player, or a player with a budget, it doesn't mean you have to have a **** list. To that end, a frugal person, or someone who lives in a country where hobby is ludicrously expensive for no reason (and that was before potential recession and en masse job losses), insofar as that it actually pays to read your Codex, before you buy your models. That way you know what you're buying, and what you're getting yourself into.

However, in this hobby, some people don't believe that's a thing. If you have a good army, you should 'just play down', in order to appease someone else. No different to a competitive player telling a new kid to 'Get Good'. Because the only way to do either of those things, is to buy new models. If you have x5 Raven Guard Centurions, those Centurions, aren't anything else. In order to replace those Centurions, that player actually has to have models to replace those Centurions, with.

But, Space Marines/9, is the new Craftworlds/7. In earnest, there are only two truly bad units in the Codex - Assault Squads and Reivers. As long as you don't build your army around those, you'll be fine. Additionally, there are a number of 'not as good' units in the Codex, that, even though the internal balance is off, those units are still better than a lot of units found in other Factions anyway. To the point where Space Marines are Just Better than other armies. And, even if you take some of the worst units in the book, you will still win games because that's just how broken Space Marines - and the meta, in general - is, and there's nothing you can do about it because you're already 'playing down' as hard as you can...But also if you're spending money wisely, you can't play down, because you can't buy other models.

So I worked myself into a shoot. I busted out the Excel Spreadsheet of all the models/units I own, I grouped them into good and bad units. Then I grouped the bad units into the worst units I own without making list-building errors or intentionally giving models overpriced and terrible wargear, and I came up with the following legal list:

Spoiler: As Bad As It Gets

Show

Imperial Fists, Battalion
Hero of the Chapter
Relic of the Chapter
Sentinel of Terra

(W) Captain in Phobos Armour; Stealth Adept, Hand of Dorn, The Vox Espiritum - 95 Points
Lieutenant in Phobos Armour; Storm of Fire, The Armour Indomitus - 80 Points

Intercessors (x5); AGL, Auto Bolt Rifles, Auto Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 105 Points
Intercessors (x5); AGL, Auto Bolt Rifles, Auto Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 105 Points
Intercessors (x5); AGL, Bolt Rifles, Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 105 Points

Scouts (x5); Boltguns, Heavy Bolter, Storm Bolter & Chainsword - 85 Points
Scouts (x5); Boltguns, Heavy Bolter, Storm Bolter & Chainsword - 85 Points
Scouts (x5); Missile Launcher, Sniper Rifles (x4) - 93 Points
Terminator Squad (x5); Cyclone Missile Launcher, Chainfists (x2), Teleport Homer - 220 Points
Terminator Squad (x5); Cyclone Missile Launcher, Chainfists (x2), Teleport Homer - 220 Points
Contemptor Dreadnought - 150 Points

Inceptors (x4) - 160 Points

Hellblasters (x5); Heavy Plasma Incinerators - 165 Points
Hellblasters (x5); Heavy Plasma Incinerators - 165 Points
Hellblasters (x5); Heavy Plasma Incinerators - 165 Points

Total: 1998 Points | 9+D3 CPs

I cannot play a worse army than this. Additionally, I 'like' every model in this army, with the exception of the Lieutenant. In my own brain, I'm trying to decide what's worse; Shootynators, Contemptors or Inceptors. I really can't decide. Party because of the way Imperial Fists interact with Bolt weapons. Like maybe I should have three Contemptors, instead? But I also feel that for a unit that's 220 Points, with 'only' a 5+ Invulnerable, the bonus to Storm Bolters is mitigated by the fact that Terminators are still pretty bad.

So I put the word out that I was chasing a game. Preferably someone who was either new to 9th Ed., or just starting a new army in 9th Ed. And that I was going to run 'the worst list I can make.' Not that I gave out my army list - that would be cheating.

Lo and behold. I get a Necron opponent. Great. Necrons are a 9th Ed. Faction with a Codex. So we're on the same level, rules-wise. Let's see what he's running:

Spoiler: Necrons

Show

Necrons, Battalion
(From Memory)

Skorpeh Lord
Lord; Warscythe, Rez Orb
Plasmancer
+ Cryptothralls (x2)

Necron Warriors (x10)
Necron Warriors (x10)
Necron Warriors (x10)

Cryptek Reanimator
Deathmarks (x5)
Deathmarks (x5)

Skorpekh Destroyers (x5)
+ Canoptek Plasmacyte

Skorpekh Destroyers (x4)
+ Canoptek Plasmacyte

Canoptek Scrab Swarms (x5)
Canoptek Scrab Swarms (x4)

Lokhust Destroyers (x5)
Lokhust Destroyers (x4)

2000 Points on the dot if I remember right.

Looks like this guy's bought an Indomitus box and one or two Elite Editions, then he's brought in a ****ton of Destroyers to kill Space Marines, and two boxes of Deathmarks because Snipers are real good, 'cause not every Faction has Bodyguards yet, and "Can't be targeted by ranged attacks." isn't a thing that most Factions have - yet.

Vital Intelligence. I didn't know how well I was going to be able to destroy Necrons with my pile of garbage (you can't take Kill Point Secondaries if your army sucks, your army list determines everything about the entire game), so I went:
Engage on all Fronts
Deploy Scramblers
Oaths of Moment

He chose:
Grind Them Down
Investigate Sites
Engage on All Fronts
(Are all the Necron Secondaries terrible?)

It was an okay game. Not a lot either of us could do to the other because both our armies are kind of terrible. So we kind of moved around the board and we only shot at units that actually tried to do anything or on an Objective.

I score exactly 15/45 on the Primary Objective, and then 11 / 10 / 14 for 35/40. For a total of 50 VPs on the dot. Nice. My Secondaries were worth more than twice the Primary. What a game.
He got 44. 24 off of his Secondaries and 20 off of the Primary.

He was mad when I said my Captain was immune to ranged attacks, making his Deathmarks real sad. Although that's only what, 200 Points?
Lokhust Destroyers are just as good as when I spammed them in 8th Ed.
Not really a fan of Skorpekhs. The Reanimator I destroyed on Turn 1, so I don't know what it was supposed to do, but whatever it did, it didn't do it.

As predicted, I would finish the game, ultimately concerned that I was right. This was the worst list I own, and I would still win against beginners. However I don't think I won 'convincingly'. So more proof* is needed.


* I don't need to 'test', I know my list is better than most other Factions already - especially beginner and budget lists. However nobody will believe me unless I throw down.

Sounds like you had fun though. I'm curious to see how you'll do against a Necron list that isn't wasting points on a Reanimator and against someone who doesn't take such awful secondaries. The Necron specific ones aren't great, but they are better than Investigate Sites. The two 'good' ones are Purge the Vermin, which is get 2 VP for every quarter that has no enemy unit wholly within them. Can't score turn 1, but you should be able to get 8 points pretty reliably, with good potential to get more. The other one that is at least decent is the Necron's opponent selects 3 Objectives. Score VP for holding those objectives by the end of your turn. (1 = 2 VP, 2 = 3 VP, 3 = 5 VP). On maps with few objectives, this one can become score points for being on objectives you would've been on anyway.

The Reanimator gives +1 to reanimation rolls. It's also pretty fragile and for 110 points, it often does literally nothing because well, you just kill it first. It's only T5, with 6 Wounds and no Invuln. Space Marine Heavy Bolters, or Plasma guns will absolutely murder it with no effort as I imagine you found.

I agree about the Skoptek Destroyers. Like they are really cool, but I just feel they are too slow and lacking a delivery system to be an effective melee unit. Maybe one unit you put in Strategic Reserve or a unit you hold back for counter charges but they really do seem limited.

I feel like your next step is to see how far you can go before you need to upgrade your list.

[Cheesegear]

Sounds like you had fun though.

Well sure. 'Fun' isn't the problem. I will have fun playing anything.

The two 'good' ones are Purge the Vermin, which is get 2 VP for every quarter that has no enemy unit wholly within them.

Sounds like the antithesis of Engage on All Fronts.

The Reanimator gives +1 to reanimation rolls. It's also pretty fragile and for 110 points, it often does literally nothing because well, you just kill it first. It's only T5, with 6 Wounds and no Invuln. Space Marine Heavy Bolters, or Plasma guns will absolutely murder it with no effort as I imagine you found.

Indeed. I was surprised that it only had six Wounds.
Which begs the question, why the **** does an Invader ATV have 8!?

Space Marines and Necrons were released at the same time. Why is one so much better than the other? There's no excuse for it.

Maybe one unit you put in Strategic Reserve or a unit you hold back for counter charges but they really do seem limited.

One unit was held in Reserves, but my Phobos Captain meant that they couldn't Outflank properly.
The other unit was sad face very quickly. As you said, I was fully prepared to unload everything into the Reanimator. But when one unit of Hellblasters killed it in one volley, I was like "Huh, what do I do now?"

He knows he needs a Nightbringer. But, due to worldwide reasons, there are none for sale in the entirety of Australia. So he's had to look elsewhere, which takes time for extra shipping.

[Drasius]

Well sure. 'Fun' isn't the problem. I will have fun playing anything.

It's nice that your opponent didn't get absolutely whomped even when playing a not entirely terrible list though. 44 - 50 is still close enough to be interesting unless I've been taking my crazy pills again.

Against a less new player, do you think things would have been different? Against the same player with you bringing a more "normal" list, would you both have had the same amount of fun?

[Cheesegear]

It's nice that your opponent didn't get absolutely whomped even when playing a not entirely terrible list though. 44 - 50 is still close enough to be interesting unless I've been taking my crazy pills again.

The problem is that I was actively taking the worst units that I own.
My opponent, wasn't.

It's not that I won the game. My point is that I was taking the worst units I own, and I won. I was actually trying to beat my opponent as hard as possible. The fortunate circumstance is that he was playing Necrons, a not-fragile army with Reanimation. My Troops and Shootynators with their AP- weapons were not as good as they probably could or should have been.

As I said, I didn't win 'convincingly', so more proof is needed. What happens when I play against Guard or Genestealer Cults? What happens when I play against a Faction that isn't in the Top 5, and isn't Necrons-with-a-Codex? Do I win even harder, or is still an even game and I don't know what I'm talking about?

Against a less new player, do you think things would have been different?

He's not a new player. It's just a new army. Evidenced by the fact he's actually read the rules more than once, and realised that it's a bad idea to run units of 5 or more. It's just that at this time, the only 'new' armies worth starting are Space Marines or Necrons, because if you're lucky you picked up Indomitus, and they're both in the starter sets. Every other army - except Custodes - is too expensive to start at this time...And a lot of people are picking up Custodes.

Against the same player with you bringing a more "normal" list, would you both have had the same amount of fun?

I will have had more fun, because I get to make the list that I want to make, instead of actively trying to pick **** units.
My opponent? Don't know.

But that's the exact problem that I'm talking about.
I have read the Codex.
I have read the rules.
I have played a few dozen games of 9th Ed.
I set out from the start to make a list, knowing that the units I picked, were bad...Given the options I had.

Most people don't do that. Most people wont do that. The only reason I have the list is because I already had it.

Do people know Reivers are bad, when they see them on the shelf with the skull masks? I don't think that they do.
Do people know that Assault Terminators are arguably one of the best units in the book when they pick them off of the shelf?

The point isn't that we had fun.
The point isn't that it was almost an even game - that I won.
The point is that I had to go out of my way to do so, and the only reason I could was because of my large(r) collection. That's the message of the game.

If I was starting my Space Marine army, today, brand new - like people are, right now - it would not look like that, and it wouldn't be as bad as that.

[Forum Explorer]

Sounds like the antithesis of Engage on All Fronts.

Basically. It's about as good as Engage on All Fronts too. Maybe slightly worse.

Indeed. I was surprised that it only had six Wounds.
Which begs the question, why the **** does an Invader ATV have 8!?

Space Marines and Necrons were released at the same time. Why is one so much better than the other? There's no excuse for it.

Because Space Marines.

Also the Reanimator is a monster, so it gives up VP if you spam them.

One unit was held in Reserves, but my Phobos Captain meant that they couldn't Outflank properly.
The other unit was sad face very quickly. As you said, I was fully prepared to unload everything into the Reanimator. But when one unit of Hellblasters killed it in one volley, I was like "Huh, what do I do now?"

He knows he needs a Nightbringer. But, due to worldwide reasons, there are none for sale in the entirety of Australia. So he's had to look elsewhere, which takes time for extra shipping.

Ah, yeah, Phobos Captains are nasty for that.

The problem is that I was actively taking the worst units that I own.
My opponent, wasn't.

It's not that I won the game. My point is that I was taking the worst units I own, and I won. I was actually trying to beat my opponent as hard as possible. The fortunate circumstance is that he was playing Necrons, a not-fragile army with Reanimation. My Troops and Shootynators with their AP- weapons were not as good as they probably could or should have been.

As I said, I didn't win 'convincingly', so more proof is needed. What happens when I play against Guard or Genestealer Cults? What happens when I play against a Faction that isn't in the Top 5, and isn't Necrons-with-a-Codex? Do I win even harder, or is still an even game and I don't know what I'm talking about?



He's not a new player. It's just a new army. Evidenced by the fact he's actually read the rules more than once, and realised that it's a bad idea to run units of 5 or more. It's just that at this time, the only 'new' armies worth starting are Space Marines or Necrons, because if you're lucky you picked up Indomitus, and they're both in the starter sets. Every other army - except Custodes - is too expensive to start at this time...And a lot of people are picking up Custodes.



I will have had more fun, because I get to make the list that I want to make, instead of actively trying to pick **** units.
My opponent? Don't know.

But that's the exact problem that I'm talking about.
I have read the Codex.
I have read the rules.
I have played a few dozen games of 9th Ed.
I set out from the start to make a list, knowing that the units I picked, were bad...Given the options I had.

Most people don't do that. Most people wont do that. The only reason I have the list is because I already had it.

Do people know Reivers are bad, when they see them on the shelf with the skull masks? I don't think that they do.
Do people know that Assault Terminators are arguably one of the best units in the book when they pick them off of the shelf?

The point isn't that we had fun.
The point isn't that it was almost an even game - that I won.
The point is that I had to go out of my way to do so, and the only reason I could was because of my large(r) collection. That's the message of the game.

If I was starting my Space Marine army, today, brand new - like people are, right now - it would not look like that, and it wouldn't be as bad as that.

I see your point, but really there isn't much to do right now, and it sucks for new players. But much like Eldar players got a ton of flack for liking their faction, new players just either have to suck it up and keep playing, or move on. Well they could have a mature conversation with the community about their attitude, but how often does that work?

8th was really good for this problem, not just because it was balanced, but because it had an awesome release schedule. Not only did they rapidly get Codexs out the door, but those Codexs were quite varied. 9th shot itself in the foot by going Space Marines - Necrons - Furry Space Marines - Red Space Marines - Elite Space Marines - Plague Marines - Dark Eldar - Green Space Marines.

So it's almost nothing but power armor until freaking Feb. Who happen to be pretty overtuned right now and have a continual situation of simply getting better units than everyone else. Like you said, why is the Invader ATV 8 Wounds and not a Monster or Vehicle? Why do Eliminators cost about as much as Fire Dragons, and outperform them in durability, damage output, and range? Why can Apothecaries use their ability every turn, while Crypteks can only do their Res trick once per game?

I mean, it's not like Necrons can't compete with Space Marines. There may be a lack of bad units in Space Marines, but good Necron units can compete with the not OP units. Your opponent this week had a pretty weak list IMO. Like he had a lot of points that basically did nothing in your match up (the Skorpek destroyers, the Skorpek Lord, the Reanimator), took some pretty crappy secondaries (Grind them down is always dicey, and Investigate Sites is pretty weak), and still put up a pretty decent fight.

My point is that all we can really do is wait for new Codexes to buff the other factions. It will happen eventually, and hopefully relatively soon. GW's absolute garbage release cycle hurts though.

[Cheesegear]

Well they could have a mature conversation with the community about their attitude, but how often does that work?

Like I've been saying...And do what!?
What does a 'conversation' achieve, when the only real solution is to force players to buy new models? I can't play a worse list than I have. I will not have fun games against Guard and Genestealer Cult players like I did with Necrons. There is no conversation that can be had, where everyone leaves happy, if the end result is that somebody can't use the models that they've bought. Nobody will buy 15 Scouts in 9e. Not when Incursors exist.

"You can't use Infiltrators/Incursors, you have to use Scouts, in the Elite slot, and also you need Troops, which Scouts aren't." Isn't it lucky that I've been collecting a long time, then, and not only have Scouts, but also Intercessors to replace my Troops slots? Sure am glad I'm not a new player.

This is what I meant when I said that the only solution is to slap a box of Harlequin Skyweavers out of a potential players' hands before they buy them. That way they know that they can't use them. But who would do that? Nobody. Nobody would do that. But once that player has a box of Skyweavers or three on the board? Nothing can be done by that point. That's now his army list.

The game isn't fair, and the game can be broken by accident. I am playing the worst possible army that I can make, and I am still winning (I'm currently 2-0, with that list, by the way, 'nother battle report coming soon). Most people who will be starting their army with their friends, with their siblings, as part of a New Year, New Army, as part of an Escalation League, or as part of a Crusade () campaign.

I went out of my way to pick the units I did in the list I have, and the only reason I can do what I'm doing, is because I have them.

Buy an Elite edition, and a Blood Angels Combat Patrol. Both are economical options - kind of:

Blood Angels/White Scars/Space Wolves/Raven Guard
Primaris Captain; Master-Crafted Power Sword, Relic Shield
Primaris Librarian

Intercessors (x5); Stalker Bolt Rifles
Assault Intercessors (x5) Use the Power Sword from the Intercessors, and convert to the ETB Assault Intercessors.
Incursors (x5)

Aggressors (x3); Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets, Fragstorm Grenade Launchers

Outriders (x3)

Impulsor

You've done it. Then buy a Deathwatch Combat Patrol to take the Aggressors to a five-man, and you get the Apothecary. So now the Librarian gives the Aggressors an Invulnerable, and the Apothecary gives Ignore Wounds. Then grab the Space Wolves Combat Patrol, and now you have two units of Aggressors, a unit of Reivers more Incursors, and a Vicky Warsuit as backup. This is so easy I might just do it.

Well, I wouldn't. I already have enough Space Marines to choke a whale (pun unintended).
But seriously, if you are considering starting Space Marines anytime soon, legitimately, buy one of each Combat Patrol. Individually, I might laugh at them. But having thought about it just now, they actually work really well together, and that's kind of...Neat? Might be the word.

And I've already illustrated how easily it is for new Custodes players to start a new army and be good from day dot.

8th was really good for this problem, not just because it was balanced, but because it had an awesome release schedule. Not only did they rapidly get Codexs out the door

Did you forget that 8th Ed. reset the game, with Indecies?
9th Ed. wasn't reset. Custodes, Harlequins, Salamanders, Orks and Death Guard ended 8th Ed. on top of the meta. That didn't go away with 9th Ed. In fact it was concreted. We have a bit to wait in 9th Ed. for Death Guard to get their second Wound for some reason. But it's coming.

Why can Apothecaries use their ability every turn, while Crypteks can only do their Res trick once per game?

This is a problem because Necrons actually got their Codex. All the other examples have potential to change.

I mean, it's not like Necrons can't compete with Space Marines.

A good Necron list can't compete with a good Space Marine list. It's chalk from cheese.

Your opponent this week had a pretty weak list IMO.

Of course he did. That's part of my point. Because it's a new army, a less-good Faction, and the player has only bought what he could afford and/or what's available (FLGS aren't great on the availability front, as I'm sure LansXero can attest). As I said, had I been in his shoes, but playing Space Marines? The outcome would not have been the same. Because the 'new player' boxes for Space Marines, just aren't the same power level. And taking the units that he didn't get in starter sets; x3 boxes of Destroyers and x2 units of Deathmarks? What can Space Marines get for the same price? ...Not that I've looked, but I can guarantee you could put together something better.

My point is that all we can really do is wait for new Codexes to buff the other factions.

But Necrons already have their Codex, and their fate has been decided. Power is not equal, and your spotlight has already been determined by the time you pick up your first box.
There will still be bad Factions in 9th Ed., even after everyone gets their Codex.
And once Codex Update/9 comes out to fix all the mistakes from the first go 'round like Psychic Awakening and Gathering Storm did, we know that that actually signals the end of the edition. So the only good option, is to start playing Space Marines - or Necrons - right now, because you know that you have less time to play with your toys from any other Faction.

[Forum Explorer]

Like I've been saying...And do what!?
What does a 'conversation' achieve, when the only real solution is to force players to buy new models? I can't play a worse list than I have. I will not have fun games against Guard and Genestealer Cult players like I did with Necrons. There is no conversation that can be had, where everyone leaves happy, if the end result is that somebody can't use the models that they've bought. Nobody will buy 15 Scouts in 9e. Not when Incursors exist.

"You can't use Infiltrators/Incursors, you have to use Scouts, in the Elite slot, and also you need Troops, which Scouts aren't." Isn't it lucky that I've been collecting a long time, then, and not only have Scouts, but also Intercessors to replace my Troops slots? Sure am glad I'm not a new player.

This is what I meant when I said that the only solution is to slap a box of Harlequin Skyweavers out of a potential players' hands before they buy them. That way they know that they can't use them. But who would do that? Nobody. Nobody would do that. But once that player has a box of Skyweavers or three on the board? Nothing can be done by that point. That's now his army list.

The game isn't fair, and the game can be broken by accident. I am playing the worst possible army that I can make, and I am still winning (I'm currently 2-0, with that list, by the way, 'nother battle report coming soon). Most people who will be starting their army with their friends, with their siblings, as part of a New Year, New Army, as part of an Escalation League, or as part of a Crusade () campaign.

I went out of my way to pick the units I did in the list I have, and the only reason I can do what I'm doing, is because I have them.

Buy an Elite edition, and a Blood Angels Combat Patrol. Both are economical options - kind of:

Blood Angels/White Scars/Space Wolves/Raven Guard
Primaris Captain; Master-Crafted Power Sword, Relic Shield
Primaris Librarian

Intercessors (x5); Stalker Bolt Rifles
Assault Intercessors (x5) Use the Power Sword from the Intercessors, and convert to the ETB Assault Intercessors.
Incursors (x5)

Aggressors (x3); Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets, Fragstorm Grenade Launchers

Outriders (x3)

Impulsor

You've done it. Then buy a Deathwatch Combat Patrol to take the Aggressors to a five-man, and you get the Apothecary. So now the Librarian gives the Aggressors an Invulnerable, and the Apothecary gives Ignore Wounds. Then grab the Space Wolves Combat Patrol, and now you have two units of Aggressors, a unit of Reivers more Incursors, and a Vicky Warsuit as backup. This is so easy I might just do it.
And I've already illustrated how easily it is for new Custodes players to start a new army and be good from day dot.



Did you forget that 8th Ed. reset the game, with Indecies?
9th Ed. wasn't reset. Custodes, Harlequins, Salamanders, Orks and Death Guard ended 8th Ed. on top of the meta. That didn't go away with 9th Ed. In fact it was concreted. We have a bit to wait in 9th Ed. for Death Guard to get their second Wound for some reason. But it's coming.



This is a problem because Necrons actually got their Codex. All the other examples have potential to change.



A good Necron list can't compete with a good Space Marine list. It's chalk from cheese.



Of course he did. That's part of my point. Because it's a new army, a less-good Faction, and the player has only bought what he could afford and/or what's available (FLGS aren't great on the availability front, as I'm sure LansXero can attest). As I said, had I been in his shoes, but playing Space Marines? The outcome would not have been the same. Because the 'new player' boxes for Space Marines, just aren't the same power level. And taking the units that he didn't get in starter sets; x3 boxes of Destroyers and x2 units of Deathmarks? What can Space Marines get for the same price? ...Not that I've looked, but I can guarantee you could put together something better.



But Necrons already have their Codex, and their fate has been decided. Power is not equal, and your spotlight has already been determined by the time you pick up your first box.
There will still be bad Factions in 9th Ed., even after everyone gets their Codex.
And once Codex Update/9 comes out to fix all the mistakes from the first go 'round like Psychic Awakening and Gathering Storm did, we know that that actually signals the end of the edition. So the only good option, is to start playing Space Marines - or Necrons - right now, because you know that you have less time to play with your toys from any other Faction.

Dunno. Depends on where you are, and what the community is like. The social aspect of the game isn't really something you can nail down hard rules for.


No, I get that. And I'm fine with this release being slower. My bigger complaint is that it's basically all Space Marines right off the get go when Space Marines are already oppressively powerful.


Err, I think the Invader ATV is going to be a problem for a while too. As for Eradicators, their biggest problem is being undercosted. Like, for only 5 points more than the Skophtek Destroyers. Sure the Skoptek Destroyers would win if they got into melee but they never would because the range and damage from the Eradicators is just way too damn high.


If the 'Good' Space Marine list is abusing things like Eradicators, and the current Apothacary rules? Than, I agree with you that Necrons can't compete. Cause there are some things in Space Marines right now that are just flat out OP. Otherwise, no, I think Necrons can compete.


Yes, and? I don't disagree. The games in a really crappy spot right now, and there is basically nothing to do but wait. That's it. I'm not trying to offer an answer here besides saying be patient. If you aren't playing Space Marines right now, than bring out your big guns and do your best. If you are playing Space Marines, prepare to get treated like people were treating Craftworld players in 6th and 7th.

But things will change. Eventually. New codexes will come out, nerfs will be handed down, and hopefully new missions will be released. Sure it won't be balanced, the game never has been, and almost never will be. But that didn't stop me than, and it won't stop me now. I'll keep playing my favorite factions, no matter how bad they get. And if they end up OP, well I'll do my best to self nerf so I can still have fun.

[Squark]

Intercessors (x5); Stalker Bolt Rifles
Assault Intercessors (x5) Use the Power Sword from the Intercessors, and convert to the ETB Assault Intercessors.

Nitpick: The Intercessors box doesn't contain a single melee weapon (except for cosmetic knives) The blood angels upgrade sprue does include a chainsword, but that isn't terribly helpful >.>

A new player's best bet is to ask other players if they can raid a bits box for special weapons.

[Cheesegear]

Nitpick: The Intercessors box doesn't contain a single melee weapon (except for cosmetic knives)

Jesus.
I only got my ETB Intercessors from Dark Imperium and Know No Fear. I thought the real boxes would be...Real. Guess I'm wrong...And have been wrong for three years.

[LansXero]

Jesus.
I only got my ETB Intercessors from Dark Imperium and Know No Fear. I thought the real boxes would be...Real. Guess I'm wrong...And have been wrong for three years.

For a while I think the only source for a primaris power fist was the IF battle box from '18. Not sure where it came out after that.

Product availability is hell in the US right now, GW is churning through sales reps weekly. UK its been bad but not as bad as for the gringos; but with their new lockdown measures due to the new strain, it'll probably get suckier when they come back from the holidays.

Also, people dont realize this but that match was only close due to the mission. Vital Intelligence doesnt award 5 Primary VPs on Hold 1, Hold 2, Hold More; its Hold 2, Hold 3, Hold more than half instead, so for primary VPs it needs to be a curbstomp or it trickles.

Random anecdote, I just beat IF yesterday running Dark Reapers and Shining Spears. Bouncing erradicator shots off Protect-enhanced invulns and frying Primaries with Laser Lances they get no save against feels like vindication, but then, I dont believe in 'playing down' so Im just a seal-clubbing jerk.

[Wraith]

About as unrelated to Codex releases and table-top prowess as one can get, today Warhammer Community have crowned their GW Miniature of the Year for 2020.

Say what you want about GW's recent misadventures in C.A.D.; some of their stuff has been phenomenal on both a technical and aesthetic level. Even just the small list of nominations is barely the tip of the iceberg of what was released since January, even in spite of the obvious setbacks.

And yet the overall winner? *exhausted sigh*

[LansXero]

My friend who does commissions loves it, he says the studio shot would be way better if they posed it differently. But yeah, seems a bit bland for 'best of the year'; I really liked the triumph better.

EDIT: Still looking for TTS matches, its on sale on Steam and its a good way to play up or down to your heart's content without spending a dime.

[Blackhawk748]

Frankly I'm somewhat reminded of the situation Pre-End Times for WHFB. While I wasn't super in the meta or anything, I had been building my Vampire Counts army during the last edition and so I was all over Dakka Dakka and so I had at least a solid idea of where everyone ranked, and there's some fair comparisons.

There are armies that are good but are incredibly expensive to get (Vampire Counts)
There are armies that are good but are cheaper (I honestly don't recall who this was, Dwarves? Daemons?)
There are armies that are incredibly expensive and bad (Beastmen)
Then there's everyone else who's various levels of mediocrity.

Yes, this is an oversimplification, sue me it's been years. Really my main memory was that Skaven and VC were stupidly expensive to run, but ultimately good, while there were armies that were better AND cheaper. And then you have Beastmen who were expensive, and terrible. And the only way to be consistently decent was to play in a way you didn't really plan on (The MinoBus)

Add in all the minis going up in price as the number of models in an army went up and you had WHFB's death spiral. I'm not saying 9th ed is that (I probably would have argued that 7th ed was closer, but I think the Bundle Boxes were better, so that helped) but with GW upping prices again and armies costing fairly absurd amounts of money and with one faction clearly sitting on top, it's not good.

Yes we can wait, but plenty of factions have done that and gotten crap. Orks in 7th, Nids in 5th, Sisters pretty much every time after 3rd, Dark Eldar every other Codex, Grey Knights (they're swingy).

Of course, there's factions that pretty much always do all right, Space Marines, Eldar, and Imperial Guard (they swing the most). I do suppose Ad Mech could go here too...

So what's the takeaway from my mental ramblings? Well... I guess pick one of the consistent three otherwise you're gambling hundreds of dollars and many, many hours away on GW not being terrible at writing army books. And we know they can be, and it's incredibly frustrating to have an army you've worked on now be utterly useless because GW is awful at balance.

Plus 9th ed is reminding me far too much of 5th for my liking (release of Necrons, SM, SM, SM, SM CM, DE, SM, all we need is some Guard in here and the Draigo Star...)

Jesus.
I only got my ETB Intercessors from Dark Imperium and Know No Fear. I thought the real boxes would be...Real. Guess I'm wrong...And have been wrong for three years.

Wow... that's bad.

About as unrelated to Codex releases and table-top prowess as one can get, today Warhammer Community have crowned their GW Miniature of the Year for 2020.

Say what you want about GW's recent misadventures in C.A.D.; some of their stuff has been phenomenal on both a technical and aesthetic level. Even just the small list of nominations is barely the tip of the iceberg of what was released since January, even in spite of the obvious setbacks.

And yet the overall winner? *exhausted sigh*

As much as I have no interest in Gazghkull as I have no interest in MA, he is a decent model... though I don't feel he deserves number one. Switch him and the Silent king and I'd probably agree.

[Cheesegear]

Even just the small list of nominations is barely the tip of the iceberg of what was released since January, even in spite of the obvious setbacks.

Alright. I'll bite.

And yet the overall winner? *exhausted sigh*

If I know the community, it'll be G...*sigh* It is...It's cause he's big, isn't it?

We going to ignore this model, are we?

Spoiler

Show

...We are.
Yes, even with the Cobra Commander face-plate, I'm not going to make a thing of it. With CAD the way it is, should've just modeled new Lelith off of her.

Spoiler

Show

Oh!? They can do female elfin faces? They just choose not to, I guess?

Spoiler

Show

You want something big, and cool? No? No. The community doesn't know anything. I'm convinced.

Spoiler

Show

y u no do this all the time?

So what's the takeaway from my mental ramblings? Well... I guess pick one of the consistent three otherwise you're gambling hundreds of dollars and many, many hours away on GW not being terrible at writing army books. And we know they can be, and it's incredibly frustrating to have an army you've worked on now be utterly useless because GW is awful at balance.

I disagree.
With 8th Ed. the way it was, and with 9th Ed. the way it's going, the game is no longer a hobby. It's a game, to be won and lost. There are good choices, and there are bad choices to make.
Before you purchase anything, read some product reviews, read the Codex (if you can) and see what works and what doesn't.

If you don't like what works, that Faction isn't for you. If you actually want a chance at winning. Which you do. Otherwise we wouldn't be having so many arguments about winners winning, and losers losing.

I've said time and time again by now, every Faction in the game 'does alright'. Because Factions aren't the problem. Units, are what wins and loses games - not Factions (e.g; I lost against Orks, in 7th Ed., using The Gladius, I really did). You can play any Faction you want (mostly). That Necron player could've beaten me easily if he had had different units. My list is terrible. Forum Explorer is totally right, sort of...That's for a different post some other day. Something, something number of available units to certain Factions.* But he didn't have different units. He had the units he had.

Do you want to play Orks in 9th Ed.? You can. 100%. But you have to buy Ghazgkull. Regardless of sub-Faction, too. Because GW actually made Ghazgkull so that everyone actually can use him (good job, GW).
Do you want to buy Ghazgkull? No? Then you don't actually want to play Orks. Because Orks have Ghazgkull.

Which is upsetting for some, because I know GW markets itself as a hobby.

But I read the rulebook. Hell, I even actually read Crusade rules. It's not a hobby. It's a game.
More importantly, it's a business.

*EDIT: WAIT. It's in the OP

Are Some Factions Bad?
As previously mentioned, some units are more or less suited to winning games than other units. The more of these units a Faction has, the better or worse they are at winning games. So, unfortunately, the answer is 'Yes.' While it's certainly possible to win games with any Faction in the game, your ability to win games is dependent on what your opponents are running...

I should probably change that.
"Factions aren't bad. Your army is bad."

[Squark]

Jesus.
I only got my ETB Intercessors from Dark Imperium and Know No Fear. I thought the real boxes would be...Real. Guess I'm wrong...And have been wrong for three years.

... I was going to blame the upgrade sprues for coming out with new weapon options constantly, but then I realized the Ultramarines one launched with the 1.0 Space Marine codex. So while it makes sense the intercessors box doesn't have chainswords, powerfists, etc., it absolutely should have had power swords.


Goddammit, GW.

[Drasius]

The Keeper was the best 40k model, hands down (honourable mention to the Silent King, Szeras and the Void Dragon, they're all really nice), and that animated armour the elves had from AoS was their best effort IMHO.

[Brookshw]

Really my main memory was that Skaven and VC were stupidly expensive to run, but ultimately good, while there were armies that were better AND cheaper.

I was dumbfounded to start looking at Warhammer after being away for 20+ years and discovering some Skaven models hadn't changed in all that time, but are now $20 a pop when they used to be $5 blisters. Give me a decent gunner and globadier (sp?) box and I'd be thrilled. Incidentally, I wish 40k Orks we're more Skavenesque in terms of the tech; sure you can play it safe, but if you want you can double your shots/move/charge/w/e and either wreck face or blow up spectacularly. I suppose in fairness 40k Orks get some of that, but not nearly enough for my taste.

[9mm]

Jesus.
I only got my ETB Intercessors from Dark Imperium and Know No Fear. I thought the real boxes would be...Real. Guess I'm wrong...And have been wrong for three years.

the amount of bitsboxes I've had to dig through is too damn high.

The Keeper was the best 40k model, hands down (honourable mention to the Silent King, Szeras and the Void Dragon, they're all really nice), and that animated armour the elves had from AoS was their best effort IMHO.

Sigmar has always had the better models.

[Blackhawk748]

I was dumbfounded to start looking at Warhammer after being away for 20+ years and discovering some Skaven models hadn't changed in all that time, but are now $20 a pop when they used to be $5 blisters. Give me a decent gunner and globadier (sp?) box and I'd be thrilled. Incidentally, I wish 40k Orks we're more Skavenesque in terms of the tech; sure you can play it safe, but if you want you can double your shots/move/charge/w/e and either wreck face or blow up spectacularly. I suppose in fairness 40k Orks get some of that, but not nearly enough for my taste.

Oh god ya, its awful. Zombies and Clanrats, which are some of the cheapest things you can use, cost about as much as everyone else's base infantry. Yes you get 20, but they're so cheap on points you need a truly absurd number of them.