Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

[LansXero]

Oh god ya, its awful. Zombies and Clanrats, which are some of the cheapest things you can use, cost about as much as everyone else's base infantry. Yes you get 20, but they're so cheap on points you need a truly absurd number of them.

not as bad as BoCs, which might as well not be a thing; everything is also webstore-only so even stores dont care about it.

Meanwhile, building SCE is super easy, barely an inconvenience. Also, if you were an Empire player, you just got handed a competitive AoS army with Cities' release, for the cheap price of just rebasing your old things.

[Forum Explorer]

Also, people dont realize this but that match was only close due to the mission. Vital Intelligence doesnt award 5 Primary VPs on Hold 1, Hold 2, Hold More; its Hold 2, Hold 3, Hold more than half instead, so for primary VPs it needs to be a curbstomp or it trickles.

Random anecdote, I just beat IF yesterday running Dark Reapers and Shining Spears. Bouncing erradicator shots off Protect-enhanced invulns and frying Primaries with Laser Lances they get no save against feels like vindication, but then, I dont believe in 'playing down' so Im just a seal-clubbing jerk.

Going by the Primary scores, that likely means the Necron player would've likely picked up more points in a different mission, since they actually managed to get 10 VP for primary on one turn, while Cheesegear only ever got 5.

[LansXero]

Yes, but then if you count how many 'hold 2' should've been 10 instead of 5, it could also swing to the other end greatly.

But beyond that, its still an IF list. Which means it still has bolter drill, transhuman, geneforged might, etc. It still has rerolls out its ass and up to 3 WTs if it wants to. So really, there is a bottom baseline of competence for Marines currently other codices have to try really hard to match.

[Cheesegear]

But beyond that, its still an IF list. [...] and up to 3 WTs if it wants to.

And one of those IF Warlord Traits is "Get all your CPs back that you spent before the battle begins."

So really, there is a bottom baseline of competence for Marines currently other codices have to try really hard to match.

Partly because the Supplements let Space Marine players use twice as much stuff as anyone else.

It's rare that you can't find anything you want, out of the Codex nor the Supplement. The only time you'll have trouble playing Space Marines is when you deliberately try to do what a Chapter doesn't do (e.g; Melee Ultramarines Successor, Melee Imperial Fists, etc.).

For example, the Imperial Fists' Relics suck.
But I still get the ones out of the Codex, so there's no problem.

Flesh Tearers get Severer, which sucks. But it's fine 'cause they still have access to Teeth of Terra anyway.

Even Deathwatch get to do anything they want, now. Maybe even we end up seeing Deathwatch as a meta-buster to Harlequins and Orks. That's how I'm using them. I wonder if someone on the other side of the world will, too.

[Adrastos42]

On the model of the year, I suspect part of the issue is that they just did it on a surveymonkey with a list of names, and no pictures. Most people aren't going to bother checking every name they don't immediately recognise, so you're going to get a skew towards the big recognisable and memorable models like Ghazghkull and the void dragon.

[LansXero]

1250 pts, Scorched Earth Craftworlds vs Iron Warriors.

We are testing for our upcoming TTS tournament, so thats why the odd point level.

I played a rather 8thEd-ish list: 2x 5-shining spear units, a farseer and an autarch both on jetbikes, a 10-dark reaper unit with a tempest launcher exarch. 5 wraithblades and a ranger unit for the patrol tax. Secondaries were Grind them Down, Linebreaker and Deploy beacons.

IW player had 3x helbrutes, 2x rapier batteries, 2x chaos lords, 1x dark apostle and 3x cultists. Ah, also a unit of chosens and chaos bikers with plasma guns.

First turn one helbrute exploded and the bikers got shot to pieces; then he tried to draw a bead on the spears with the rapiers but bounced off the 3++ on the exarch. Second turn one Rapier died to dark reaper fire while the chosen died to tempest launcher shots, cultists died to shining spear shuriken fire while the laser spears cooked the dark apostle and hurt a chaos lord. Then in melee the Autarch and one unit of shining spears killed another helbrute. In his turn, the rapier put the hurt on the unit of shining spears not yet locked in melee and the final helbrute punched the other out of comission. By my next turn the wraithblades blew it up though, the reapers finished the last rapier and the autarch took his lord's head. With only a lord left it was game over, but I also was capped at 45 for primaries and was on my way to full score on secondaries too :D

Invitation remains open to anyone who wants to try a match over TTS :D

[LeSwordfish]

On the model of the year, I suspect part of the issue is that they just did it on a surveymonkey with a list of names, and no pictures. Most people aren't going to bother checking every name they don't immediately recognise, so you're going to get a skew towards the big recognisable and memorable models like Ghazghkull and the void dragon.

My suspicion is that Ork players are just a very dedicated voting bloc. (Or should that be Blok?) See also: Ragnar blackmane's strong placing.

[Renegade Paladin]

Well, apparently the shop management thought my being careful about the pandemic was excessive and organized a "Crusade" league starting this month. And the way they're doing it is making me seriously reconsider handing over the TO position if someone else ever wants it, because they are doing it as follows:

There is no order of battle. You build a 25PL list. Increase Supply Limit is banned. Every month your list - which is also your order of battle - goes up by 5PL. It ends at 50PL. The requirement to use only a Patrol detachment at the 25PL level is waived. No Lords of War, named characters, or Legends units.

Armies going up by 5PL per campaign round means that the only way to add anything big is to either do it in the initial list, dismiss your experienced units to make room, or play understrength for a month or more. My starting list is a company commander, an infantry squad, and two Russes because of it; fortunately I drew another veteran for the first round because taking that against some new kid who's just getting going would just be unfair.

I was not consulted on any of this, which wouldn't bother me except that I was also roundly dismissed when I (privately in the appropriate manner) brought up the obvious problems with the approach in a way that makes me think the organizer doesn't even understand what the function of the order of battle is, and their response to the suggestion of Tabletop Simulator in light of the pandemic was to add a line barring digital games to the campaign rules (though playing off site at a player's house is perfectly fine, so I've no idea how they'll enforce it). So they're taking my achievement - the long awaited rebuilding of the local 40k community - and running it nose first into the ground. I hope the players stick around after this.

Edit: I just learned about the power rating adjustment document. Back to the drawing board, but it makes it even more difficult to make a workable list that will be a workable core as the game size increases.

[Cheesegear]

Well, apparently the shop management thought my being careful about the pandemic was excessive and organized a "Crusade" league starting this month.
[...]
There is no order of battle. You build a 25PL list. Increase Supply Limit is banned. Every month your list - which is also your order of battle - goes up by 5PL. It ends at 50PL.

"The only way to play Crusade is to change how it works entirely."

Is Requisition and XP still earned? As Warlord Traits, Relics and XP-gains are PL-free?
Spam games, win games?

The requirement to use only a Patrol detachment at the 25PL level is waived. No Lords of War, named characters, or Legends units.

That's fine.

Armies going up by 5PL per campaign round means that the only way to add anything big is to either do it in the initial list, dismiss your experienced units to make room, or play understrength for a month or more.

It means that the only way to play, is to pre-write what you're going to do every month. The same as all Escalation Leagues. There can't be an organic growth of your army, because the growth-rate of your army has already been decided. Which means, arguably, that the only way to play in such a campaign is to already have a sizable collection of models you already own and can choose from, or, as I said, pre-build your armies for every month and buy models already-knowing what you already want.

I was not consulted on any of this, which wouldn't bother me except that I was also roundly dismissed when I (privately in the appropriate manner) brought up the obvious problems with the approach in a way that makes me think the organizer doesn't even understand what the function of the order of battle is

The function of a Roster is the same as it is in Kill Team. To be able to tailor your army list to your opponent, and vice versa. But since you can both do that, it becomes a game of bluffs and double bluffs where you each try and guess what the other is taking. It adds a new tactical area to the game. Unfortunately, it's still a function of the game that happens before a Battle even starts. And as I've repeatedly pointed out, what you put on the board at the beginning of the game, determines what you can and can't do during the game - for better or worse.

However, a lot of players are against Order of Battles, because when you start a brand new army, you more often than not don't have the funds for extra choices that might not ever even use (New players can't/wont buy models that they don't have and/or want to? ...That sounds familiar). You can't tailor to your opponent because that requires spending more money. Which means that Orders of Battle are useless, except for those players with extra funds or already-existing collections...And those players already have an advantage because of the first thing I said.

and their response to the suggestion of Tabletop Simulator in light of the pandemic was to add a line barring digital games to the campaign rules (though playing off site at a player's house is perfectly fine, so I've no idea how they'll enforce it).

I'm assuming that the idea is that digital games aren't sales, and thus can't be counted.
But it's easy to enforce because you just say that either one or both players must send at least one photo (I suggest at the bottom of Turn 2) to the TO/EO or whatever group is hosting the event, whether on Discord or Facebook or however the group communicates.

[Renegade Paladin]

Yeah, well in what's supposed to be a casual setting to ease new players into the game, it forces a stark choice: Stack your list now and stomp the newbies, or suck for the entire league. I can and would use a Crusade ORBAT to build an appropriate list for my opponent's skill and army to deal with. Now I don't have that choice.

[Cheesegear]

Yeah, well in what's supposed to be a casual setting to ease new players into the game, it forces a stark choice: Stack your list now and stomp the newbies, or suck for the entire league.

That's what sucks about every Escalation League I've ever been in.

There's a 'core group' of people, who decided that it's the new year, holidays, or everyone just got tax returns, that it's a good time to start a new army. In order to keep them invested, let's make a game out of building a new army; Crusade! Escalation League! Except it will suck if it's 'just us', so we'll open it up to the whole meta, and everyone who wants in, can jump in on our campaign (that has no storyline and literally no-one else is invested because we have an idea of what we want, but no idea how to actually execute it).

There's no prizes and there's no incentive to keep playing at all (hence why Crusade is the way it is). But sure let's make a campaign. People will totally stick around, even after they start losing. That's a thing.

Oh wait. Almost everyone is like "Why the **** would I start a new army, when I have this perfectly good already-existing one, right here? I don't have to spend any money."

Campaign is driven nose-first into the ground because ~80% of the players don't actually want to start a new army, and want to use what they already have. Which means that the power curve is shattered between players. And those ~80% of players didn't join because they're invested in the idea of a campaign, they're invested in the idea of being included in the community. But then they don't get anything out of it, except for what they were already getting from playing regular games of 40K with people, normally.
So why play in an 'Escalation League' where I'm hamstrung into playing 25PL Combat Patrols, when I could be playing 'real' 2000 Point games and making an afternoon of it?

[Renegade Paladin]

This is a special case; in this case almost everyone is actively buying a new army, because over half the players are a clique of friends who all decided to take up the hobby at once, so they don't have existing armies to use the way I'm using mine. Which only makes the situation more perilous, because it going poorly in the first games might make them quit. So yes, it really is forcing them to choose between buying what they may want and buying what will fit in next month's 5PL budget for the campaign.

Here, I'll illustrate what I mean. This is the Crusade ORBAT I prepared months ago when I was first contemplating organizing a Crusade league. This list is what the league format they settled on is essentially forcing me to use; growth will be an infantry squad and an Astropath, then an infantry squad and an officer to get me up to a Battalion on month three, and then I might buy the box of Ogryns on the shelf as a sop to the purpose of the league since I don't have any. The way Crusade is written in the book gives me the flexibility to take an infantry list for the early stages to give the new players something they can handle, and phase in the squad-deleting heavy hitters later on once the other lists in the pool are big enough to absorb the damage a Tank Commander and Manticore can do without immediately folding. The alterations force me to either take the squad-deleting heavy hitters first, or never have them.

[LansXero]

You aren't actually forced into anything. If you want to 'play down' to coddle newbs, do that. Yes, sucking is part of the deal, but then, why would you try to actually win a 'welcome to the game' event? It seems like it misses the point.

Also, one month per round seems ridiculously optimistic. Thats half a year of games, I seriously think it'll fizzle out halfway through, so why worry so much about it during initial stages?

Finally, this format is crap for sales. Let them reset their entire list every month, as new codices, releases and boxes drop. If all I can add is some piddly infantry unit, where is the incentive to get the new combat patrol or boxed set? Stupid move, even from a money-gouging perspective

Edit: Our best sales tool has been the ton of models friends drop here that people can borrow to play with. TTS is becoming a close second. Owners who think free demos run against sales deserve to go bankrupt to make way to non-fossils so we get a better industry overall.

[Renegade Paladin]

We can reset our lists every month if we want, but then why are we playing (janky jury-rigged) Crusade? I'm not going to spend all my requisition on units that I'm going to let go next month. Their answer to "can't add big things" was that you can always dismiss units from your roster per the Crusade rules but they lose all their experience, etc.

Besides, I seem to recall someone in this thread trying to break the Crusade system to prove a point not too long ago. Gee, who was that again...

[Brookshw]

Anyone with experience using cork for basing? I'm worried about how well it sticks to itself using super glue if you're stacking it, didn't seem to work too well the first time, am I better off using some Elmer's?

[LansXero]

We can reset our lists every month if we want, but then why are we playing (janky jury-rigged) Crusade? I'm not going to spend all my requisition on units that I'm going to let go next month. Their answer to "can't add big things" was that you can always dismiss units from your roster per the Crusade rules but they lose all their experience, etc.

Besides, I seem to recall someone in this thread trying to break the Crusade system to prove a point not too long ago. Gee, who was that again...

TTS Crusade, which means nobody had wasted money on models. Doing it to paying customers would've been enormously assholish of me :v.

Also, you're going wrong about it. XP piles up on units that matter, so focus on one russ, then toss away the other and the company commander and bring a tank commander, or however the points fit. XP isnt best used steadily improving your roster in a balanced way; its way better to rush level one unit so you can stomp harder and then steamroll from there.

Also, this system is super broken anyways as there is no min / max amount of games played and home games are in, which means its wide open for cheating and abuse.

I also said Crusade was fundamentally broken, pointless, unneeded and that it being "in the core rulebook" was meaningless :v. We'll see if I was right

[LeSwordfish]

Anyone with experience using cork for basing? I'm worried about how well it sticks to itself using super glue if you're stacking it, didn't seem to work too well the first time, am I better off using some Elmer's?

I've used cork for a couple of bits, but only larger stacks on large bases. I've found PVA/wood glue to work best, including painting a thin layer over the cork to stop it breaking off. I also found you really have to squash it down to keep it in place when it's large slabs. I also then slapped a bunch of milliput over the top, creating a smooth hills/rough rocks shape that turned out pretty alright, and has the benefit that milliput dries hard as concrete so that cork isn't going anywhere at all.

[Renegade Paladin]

Also, this system is super broken anyways as there is no min / max amount of games played and home games are in, which means its wide open for cheating and abuse.

You can only count one game per month.

As for why have the killer units at all, there's one particular among the new guys who intentionally set out to build a meta Marine list and thinks he's hot stuff. Between him and the other veterans I'd like to be able to give a competent game.

[Cheesegear]

Anyone with experience using cork for basing? I'm worried about how well it sticks to itself using super glue if you're stacking it, didn't seem to work too well the first time, am I better off using some Elmer's?

It doesn't stick well to itself using super glue, because cork absorbs moisture - including the glue itself - which means your average cyanoacrylate glue wont bond very well.

I use wood PVA. The cork will still absorb the glue (moisture) as normal, but PVA is cheap so you can use a lot of it.

Also, you're going wrong about it. XP piles up on units that matter, so focus on one russ, then toss away the other and the company commander and bring a tank commander, or however the points fit. XP isnt best used steadily improving your roster in a balanced way

I partially agree.
XP stacks on units that were already going to earn it in the first place:
1XP - Participation Award.
1XP - Every time you kill something.
Extra XP - Completing Agendas.

Any unit that can already kill things, is racking XP.
If Crusade is anything like real 40K (it is), you've already picked at least one Secondary Agenda as you've built your army list. Since Combat Patrol only allows you to have one Agenda, you've already built your entire list around a single Agenda because exactly one, is at least one.

You can earn a lot of XP, very quickly, if your army is even half-good. Because good units earn XP. Bad units do not earn XP. The end.

Factions aren't bad. Units are bad. Many bad units in combination, make a bad army. But the Faction still isn't bad.
...That's a quote that belongs in the OP.

its way better to rush level one unit so you can stomp harder and then steamroll from there.

In my first Crusade game - using Deathwatch - I got 3 units to Rank 1. It's trivial to Rank up units that were already going to wank rank anyway.

Winners win. Losers lose.

I also said Crusade was fundamentally broken, pointless, unneeded and that it being "in the core rulebook" was meaningless :v. We'll see if I was right

But Beyond the Veil is already out. We know you're right. You were right all along. Never doubted you for a second.

But six months in you've still who are only just now getting around to playing 9th Ed. as worldwide reasons calm down. They're not aware how Crusade works, because they can't read good and need to 'playtest'. They've heard stories about what makes Crusade broken, and they're trying to fix it. Unfortunately - like Kill Team - what makes Crusade broken, is what makes it work in the first place. When you change how Crusade works (specifically, the pace at which your Roster grows, and how you choose your army/ies), you may as well not be playing Crusade.

As for why have the killer units at all, there's one particular among the new guys who intentionally set out to build a meta Marine list and thinks he's hot stuff. Between him and the other veterans I'd like to be able to give a competent game.

Which has directly led to the age-old arms race:

One player builds a good list.
Another player builds a list to compete against that list. However the result is that now two players have built good lists.
Another player sees that there are now two good lists in the meta, which means the chance of playing a 'better' list, increases, so now he needs to make a better list, in order to compete. Now there are three good lists.
Repeat.

This is where those 'conversations' come in, as a group, where everyone is on board, or no-one is. Because arms races kill campaigns. Because why don't you just play a round-robin tournament?
(That's my preferred style. If you're going to spam games, just please, please, please play more than the same person and don't farm someone for wins).

[LansXero]

I use wood PVA. The cork will still absorb the glue (moisture) as normal, but PVA is cheap so you can use a lot of it.

Thats the white stuff, yes? The other option is to seal the cork and then glue it.

I partially agree.
XP stacks on units that were already going to earn it in the first place:

Dont you get a 3 XP bonus at the end of a win that you can toss on whatever you want?

In my first Crusade game - using Deathwatch - I got 3 units to Rank 1. It's trivial to Rank up units that were already going to wank rank anyway.

Winners win. Losers lose.

Yup, and you shouldn't particularly care about flushing rank 1 units if it means bringing in a better roster; you even get to have less crusade points than your 'wont toss my guys away' oponent adding insult to injury in the form of extra CPs :v.

When you change how Crusade works (specifically, the pace at which your Roster grows, and how you choose your army/ies), you may as well not be playing Crusade.

I get the appeal of established, codified level ups and fluffy-ish missions to save on trouble for the TO. I just dont think a group can carry it to 'completion' or max PL without people droping off, playing above their current crusade PL defeating its purpose as a teaching tool, or it ending up with matches that are foregone conclussions and only get played 'to not be a quiter'.

This is where those 'conversations' come in, as a group, where everyone is on board, or no-one is. Because arms races kill campaigns. Because why don't you just play a round-robin tournament?
(That's my preferred style. If you're going to spam games, just please, please, please play more than the same person and don't farm someone for wins).

Swiss or nothing for me. Also, the whole 'arms race' idea is silly for a l2play event. If you already play, then you have an established winrate in the community. You dont NEED to prove anything, you can just durdle and teach and be done with it. Its like coming to a l2p Magic event with a blinged out commander deck. Why? What do you get out of it? Im all for crushing newbs for them to learn the vast gulf between their skills and mine (this is a joke btw) but I wont bs it by pretending its about helping them learn. If they want coaching I'll do that, if they want narrative low PL durdling sure, got like a dozen wonky lists to see how far they can go, but I wont bring my best to a teaching event. Whatever I do bring I'll play it the best I can, ofc, but it makes "winning" = leaving the table with an oponent who is now a better player, regardless of game score.

[Cheesegear]

The other option is to seal the cork and then glue it.

Who's got time for that?

Dont you get a 3 XP bonus at the end of a win that you can toss on whatever you want?

Yep.

Yup, and you shouldn't particularly care about flushing rank 1 units if it means bringing in a better roster; you even get to have less crusade points than your 'wont toss my guys away' oponent adding insult to injury in the form of extra CPs :v.

It depends on what upgrades you take.
I can't stress enough that not all of the upgrades are equal. That's why I've said multiple times that if you can pick your Battle Honours rather than random roll, you absolutely should. Because some of them are worth way more than a simple Command Point or two to your opponent.

I couldn't care less if I give my opponent more CPs, because they can't use good Stratagems more than once anyway, and they can't use every Stratagem, all the time, because nobody's army is set up for that (I should do a thought exercise). And because Extra Warlord Traits and Relics in Crusade, don't come from Command Points, it's not like you're giving your opponent extra free ****.

So what difference does it make?

You should Rank Up as many units as you can, because the only units that can Rank Up, are your good units.

I get the appeal of established, codified level ups and fluffy-ish missions to save on trouble for the TO.

I totally understand the appeal of Crusade. I know why it exists. I know who it's for.
But Crusade armies are intimately tied to three separate Resource Systems (Supply, Requisition and XP).
But the way of attaining those resources is pretty specific, and eventually - inevitably - the 'winner' in any Crusade group, will be the one who attained those resources the easiest - whether deliberately or by accident.

Swiss or nothing for me.

If there's no prize, there's no value to being 'the best'. That's why Round Robins just...Work. Everyone plays everyone, at least once. Because it's a casual event designed to get people to play with each other. If it's going to be a curbstomp, then one player can just concede.

If you already play, then you have an established winrate in the community. You dont NEED to prove anything, you can just durdle and teach and be done with it.

How? "Just play down"?

Time is cyclical. Life is a simulation.

[LansXero]

How? "Just play down"?

Time is cyclical. Life is a simulation.

I dont have an exact recipe, but when Im teaching I help the oponent identify fire lanes, threat assessment, target priority, remind them on strats, etc. Its still their call to take my advice (which they often wont because wtv) but its an entirely different mindframe and play sequence than when trying to win. Also, no real need to 'play down' for lower point levels, even if all you own is your one 2k point list, cut it to size and if there are points left over, who cares, the goal is to teach.

[Renegade Paladin]

So going over the PL update document (which I'd never bothered to read until now because I haven't actually been playing), why in hell are Ogryn bodyguards now 6PL, Bullgryns are 5, and Nork is 3? Like, I could kind of see that if the old Deathmask + slabshield trick still worked, but it got errataed.

[9mm]

So going over the PL update document (which I'd never bothered to read until now because I haven't actually been playing), why in hell are Ogryn bodyguards now 6PL, Bullgryns are 5, and Nork is 3? Like, I could kind of see that if the old Deathmask + slabshield trick still worked, but it got errataed.

Because the only thing worse than GW balance is fanfic balance.

[Squark]

So, FAQs landed. Eradicators, Outriders, Inceptors (? Really?) Get modest 5 point price increases (Eradicators are still too cheap). The Nightbringer got a 20 point price increase, while the Canoptek Reanimator dropped 30 points (and might still be overpriced). Super doctorines now apply if anything switches you into that doctorine. Combat revival no longer works on the ATV (But still works on Centurions and Attack Bikes, so it's still bonkers)

But the big changes are the ones to scoring, which I haven't had a chance to look at.

Edit: "Big" was an overstatement. Bring it Down was nerfed to 1/2/3 for vehicles with >10/10+/20+ wounds, abhor the witch gives only 2 VPs for non-character psykers, whoever wins the roll-off is locked into first turn, second player gets end of turn scoring for take and hold on the final turn, and... something... happened to while we stand, we fight.

[-Sentinel-]

Drukhari are playable again! Lots of points decreases across the board (though some are inexplicable; Wracks and Reavers are now way too cheap).

Can't wait for their new codex.

[Rizhail]

...Reavers are now way too cheap.

Huh, let me see what the new cost is...

Oh, it’s 10 points a piece. You know, the same cast as wyches.

Reaver jetbikes are now the same cost as wyches.

I want whatever GWs writers are smoking, because it seems they’re on the good ****.

Honestly, I feel like the wych and wrack costs are flipped, or at the very least they should both be the cheaper price.

[Forum Explorer]

Drukhari are playable again! Lots of points decreases across the board (though some are inexplicable; Wracks and Reavers are now way too cheap).

Can't wait for their new codex.

I'm wondering if this is basically a preview for the new Codex

[Renegade Paladin]

and... something... happened to while we stand, we fight.

The "something" is the last sentence there; if the unit splits (i.e. Combat Squads), it counts as long as any part of the split unit is still on the board; Drones don't count.

Edit: They made the entire points list free?

[Blackhawk748]

Huh, let me see what the new cost is...

Oh, it’s 10 points a piece. You know, the same cast as wyches.

Reaver jetbikes are now the same cost as wyches.

I want whatever GWs writers are smoking, because it seems they’re on the good ****.

Honestly, I feel like the wych and wrack costs are flipped, or at the very least they should both be the cheaper price.

I... wat.

Like... how? What drugs are they on? Who are they listening too? How do you look at a Wych and go "Ya, that should cost as much as a friggin jetbike"

What even is their logic?