Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

[Squark]

This is the most laughably imbalanced boxed set I've ever seen.

Spoiler

Show

On the one side, we have 5 pseudo-Custodes, and on the other, we have... 50 points of Necron Infantry. Wow.

[Blackhawk748]

2PM: Warhammer 40k

Sisters of Batte - Paragon Warsuit
SoB's get a Dreadknight of their own. I like the top half a lot better than the GK one as it doesn't have the goofy baby-carrier on the front, but not so keen on the spindly legs.

I don't know anything about SoBs - did they need a Dreadknight unit with a sword and multimelta? Doesn't sound like it fills a niche to me, hopefully it gets some stupidly OP rules otherwise... eh.

We already hand Penitent Engines, so... not really. Really, we just wanted our Repressors back.

This is the most laughably imbalanced boxed set I've ever seen.

Spoiler

Show

On the one side, we have 5 pseudo-Custodes, and on the other, we have... 50 points of Necron Infantry. Wow.

Good lord wow.

[Avaris]

2PM: Warhammer 40k

Sisters of Batte - Paragon Warsuit
SoB's get a Dreadknight of their own. I like the top half a lot better than the GK one as it doesn't have the goofy baby-carrier on the front, but not so keen on the spindly legs.

I don't know anything about SoBs - did they need a Dreadknight unit with a sword and multimelta? Doesn't sound like it fills a niche to me, hopefully it gets some stupidly OP rules otherwise... eh.

I guess it fills a combat/close quarters niche like Repentia while being a bit more sturdy than them. Not sure how necessary it is, and definitely a bit out of left field in terms of what people might predict.

2:10pm - Kill Team

The Pariah Nexus boxed set
A new expansion for Kill Team which makes you play on a Necromunda-style board rather than an arena or tabletop, as well as releasing a new Kill Team for Primaris Marines and Necrons.

There's... maybe 2 models between both boxes that are anything interesting? Also does nothing to address the balance issues in KT, and Arena already has the easily repeated setup that can be used in competitive settings... I don't know why this was made.

It's only the one box I think. And yeah, quite disappointing. Doesn't even have the main Kill Team rules. If the scenery were better I'd consider it as a thing to add on top of my Indomitus forces, but Necron doors and power sources are not going to see use at all outside of Kill Team.

2:20pm - Adeptus Titanicus

New unit: The Warmaster Titan
It looks like.... a titan. But slightly bigger than the other ones in the game. But it's also for Ad.Titan so it's already going to be smaller than an Imperial Knight for 40k so it's not really an impressive compared to anything else GW have made.
It's 1 new model for a game that's 2 years old. I feel like Ad.Tit. needs a much bigger kickstart than that.

On the contrary, I feel this is exactly what AT players are after. It's not a game that needs many models, and adding something bigger than a Warlord will shake things up a lot. It won't get new people into AT, but it didn't really need to: the game is quite happily going along in its own circles.

[Wraith]

It won't get new people into AT, but it didn't really need to: the game is quite happily going along in its own circles.

I don't think there's such thing as "enough players" in a game.

I guess I'm looking at it from the point of view that, COVID19 is on its way out this year with any luck - vaccines are rolling out, so workplaces will start opening and people are going to both make some spare money and start meeting up with friends again. Why aren't GW jumping on that opportunity with a big release for all of their games, instead of a one-and-done Warhammer Quest box and a smattering of random stuff for whatever else they feel like?

Maybe its a little bit too early for that and I'm being overly optimistic; maybe they'll do it in a few months time when things look even better. Still, I'd hoped for more from the first big preview of the year.

[LansXero]

I don't think there's such thing as "enough players" in a game.

The costs of manufacture being so frontloaded by the cost of molds, I question why AT or Aeronautica even exists. I'd say money laundering but I doubt thats the case; I guess you can afford a few duds when your quarterly reports look ike GW's do.

[Avaris]

I don't think there's such thing as "enough players" in a game.

I guess I'm looking at it from the point of view that, COVID19 is on its way out this year with any luck - vaccines are rolling out, so workplaces will start opening and people are going to both make some spare money and start meeting up with friends again. Why aren't GW jumping on that opportunity with a big release for all of their games, instead of a one-and-done Warhammer Quest box and a smattering of random stuff for whatever else they feel like?

Maybe its a little bit too early for that and I'm being overly optimistic; maybe they'll do it in a few months time when things look even better. Still, I'd hoped for more from the first big preview of the year.

Definitely too early with their lead times. The stuff released now was likely finishing design around when Covid hit, which is part of the reason we're now starting to see a slow down of release schedule (alongside general shipping delays all over the place).

The costs of manufacture being so frontloaded by the cost of molds, I question why AT or Aeronautica even exists. I'd say money laundering but I doubt thats the case; I guess you can afford a few duds when your quarterly reports look ike GW's do.

They certainly don't both need to exist, and so close together in release. AT has a very dedicated, but small, community, and is often reported as one of the best games GW produces. I suspect it helps that there are only a few kits for it, so although it's a small player base they're all buying the same things over and over again, which spreads the cost of the mold.

[hamishspence]

The fact that they're built to the same scale makes me hope that eventually they'll both be usable in the same game - a resurrection of Epic 40K.

[Wraith]

The costs of manufacture being so frontloaded by the cost of molds, I question why AT or Aeronautica even exists. I'd say money laundering but I doubt thats the case; I guess you can afford a few duds when your quarterly reports look ike GW's do.

All of Specialist Games were killed off the first time for less. Aeronautica feels like some Director had a pet project entitled "steal our next best competitor's most successful game" and gave it a green-light so now they're stuck with a poor X-Wing rip-off.

Which is a shame - as I've said before, 40k aeroplanes is probably the most boring of themes for a game when they could have called it Battlefleet Gothic, made cool spaceships and more factions and we'd have been none-the-wiser. *I* would play 40k X-Wing quite happily, if I thought I could get my hands on the Eternal Crusader, or a battle-mat that looked like an Aeldari Craftworld!

AT has a very dedicated, but small, community, and is often reported as one of the best games GW produces. I suspect it helps that there are only a few kits for it, so although it's a small player base they're all buying the same things over and over again, which spreads the cost of the mold.

Obviously I can't just say that "you're wrong" because I don't know any better, but this feels like exactly the opposite as to how GW normally rolls out products. Like I said above, they tried small games with limited releases sold to die-hard fans several times with the Specialist Games and they keep getting killed off because it's unsustainable. I thought the same thing when Titanicus first came out - unless they're going to turn it into Battletech-in-40k with all of the 40k factions (oh god I hope they do, I want Tyranid Titans!) then I don't know who is going to keep buying the same miniature over and over, just an inch taller each time, y'know?

[Avaris]

All of Specialist Games were killed off the first time for less. Aeronautica feels like some Director had a pet project entitled "steal our next best competitor's most successful game" and gave it a green-light so now they're stuck with a poor X-Wing rip-off.



Obviously I can't just say that "you're wrong" because I don't know any better, but this feels like exactly the opposite as to how GW normally rolls out products. Like I said above, they tried small games with limited releases sold to die-hard fans several times with the Specialist Games and they keep getting killed off because it's unsustainable. I thought the same thing when Titanicus first came out - unless they're going to turn it into Battletech-in-40k with all of the 40k factions (oh god I hope they do, I want Tyranid Titans!) then I don't know who is going to keep buying the same miniature over and over, just an inch taller each time, y'know?

I doubt we'll ever see other races for AT: it can't support having that many factions in play model wise. As for how it compares to GW rolling out products... the big difference now, compared to when all the specialist games came out and then got killed off in the early 2000s, is the internet. Obviously, the internet existed back then, I was on the GW forums back in the day, but it wasn't anything like as prominent as a support to a game system as it is now, and you couldn't buy stuff online as easily. To get into a game you had to buy through mail order rather than going to you hobby store with your regular purchases: now, you can browse AT stuff online alongside your regular online ordering. It's a much easier route from 'I'm interested in this' to 'I'll buy this'.

So, you are right in terms of how it used to run, but it feels different now, and GW clearly doesn't mind supporting its specialist games atm, even if they are small communities. Bloodbowl got a second edition, Necromunda is seeing a steady stream of releases. I suspect they only started designing this titan after AT first came out and proved to be enough of a success to want to do more.

[Blackhawk748]

All of Specialist Games were killed off the first time for less. Aeronautica feels like some Director had a pet project entitled "steal our next best competitor's most successful game" and gave it a green-light so now they're stuck with a poor X-Wing rip-off.

Which is a shame - as I've said before, 40k aeroplanes is probably the most boring of themes for a game when they could have called it Battlefleet Gothic, made cool spaceships and more factions and we'd have been none-the-wiser. *I* would play 40k X-Wing quite happily, if I thought I could get my hands on the Eternal Crusader, or a battle-mat that looked like an Aeldari Craftworld!

It's doubly stupid when you realize that BattleFleet Gothic was pretty popular and it now has two successful PC games under its belt, so some people would buy the models just to have real versions of their favorite ships.

Also they would be on the short list of "Companies that makes full-size space vessels in 28/32 mm scale" which would make a bunch of tabletop RPG players happy.

[LansXero]

The issue being there is a genuine disconnect between users who care about stuff like actually getting to use and play with their stuff, and GW's target customer who just buys stuff with no rhyme nor reason. Like the many people with piles of grey unassembled stuff who somehow decide to start a new army or keep posting theoretical lists, and when asked 'who'll you play with' answer with 'dunno, last game I had was a year ago'.

Same sort of people for whom 2 years is 'not enough time' between codex releases who want to 'enjoy' a stale meta for the better part of a decade due to only getting to play like once a year.

[Brookshw]

Same sort of people for whom 2 years is 'not enough time' between codex releases who want to 'enjoy' a stale meta for the better part of a decade due to only getting to play like once a year.

I and the rest of the parents with young children, long commutes, and extremely limited free time appreciate your understanding that we might want to actually enjoy what we bought without having to constantly pay the "keep current tax".

[LansXero]

I and the rest of the parents with young children, long commutes, and extremely limited free time appreciate your understanding that we might want to actually enjoy what we bought without having to constantly pay the "keep current tax".

But what keeps the busy people from just playing whatever they have in dead tree format with their friends? The issue I have is foggies demanding the world doesn't move to outpace them; they can do whatever with their hobby money / time, but when they bemoan the faster pace for those who actually do use those new rules it gets a bit silly

[Squark]

But what keeps the busy people from just playing whatever they have in dead tree format with their friends? The issue I have is foggies demanding the world doesn't move to outpace them; they can do whatever with their hobby money / time, but when they bemoan the faster pace for those who actually do use those new rules it gets a bit silly

Because many of those people still play in the same location as more frequent gamers on the occasions they do get games, so dead tree format isn't practical. The demographic we're talking about often doesn't have room for a dedicated gaming space, so hosting games isn't easy. Furthermore, this isn't the most organized crowd we're talking about (See: "extremely limited freetime"), so it's not like they have an active network with which to arrange for games.

Your store must be very different from the ones I'm familiar with if you don't have customers who only show up a few times a year (Or it's so busy that you can't remember anyone but the regulars).

[LansXero]

Your store must be very different from the ones I'm familiar with if you don't have customers who only show up a few times a year (Or it's so busy that you can't remember anyone but the regulars).

Of course it is, its got me at the helm 8).

We keep stuff on hand (models, terrain, rulebooks, supplements) for people to use and play with, you dont need to carry anything if you dont want to :D. I also try to keep everyone connected on social media, so they know where to ask / where to set up a game. I try to get them to schedule stuff in advance, but yes, sometimes people just show up and have no idea things had changed (like, say, a CA moving points up and down). But, our customers have the good sense to admit they dont keep up and ask to just use the old values (BS lets you make lists wherever on the fly so most regulars can adapt rather quickly) instead of whining about things being too fast.

[Cheesegear]

Why aren't GW jumping on that opportunity with a big release for all of their games, instead of a one-and-done Warhammer Quest box and a smattering of random stuff for whatever else they feel like?

Because they already ****ed it up when COVID hit and they maintained 'business as usual'.
The other side of the coin, is of course that when COVID hit, they were one of the businesses that didn't close down, and as such made it out of COVID arguably in a better position than when it started. There's a solid argument to be made that COVID is the best thing that's ever happened to GW. Any business that didn't get shut down has done well during COVID. Who knew that would happen?

Maybe its a little bit too early for that and I'm being overly optimistic; maybe they'll do it in a few months time when things look even better. Still, I'd hoped for more from the first big preview of the year.

Yeah, but it's not the first big preview of the financial year, and that's when things really matter. They will do a big preview in a few months time, 'cause that's when you get to make orders in May and June.

Aeronautica feels like some Director had a pet project entitled "steal our next best competitor's most successful game" and gave it a green-light so now they're stuck with a poor X-Wing rip-off.

There are a few holdouts in my meta still playing X-Wing. But the vast majority of the playerbase abandoned ship (pun unintended) for Legions.

Obviously I can't just say that "you're wrong" because I don't know any better, but this feels like exactly the opposite as to how GW normally rolls out products. Like I said above, they tried small games with limited releases sold to die-hard fans several times with the Specialist Games and they keep getting killed off because it's unsustainable.

I think being unsustainable is the point. As is all made-to-order content. You sell content to marks, and then you abandon the product because you've already made your money. It doesn't matter that the game goes unsupported and/or dies, because the money has already been made.

The issue being there is a genuine disconnect between users who care about stuff like actually getting to use and play with their stuff, and GW's target customer who just buys stuff with no rhyme nor reason. Like the many people with piles of grey unassembled stuff who somehow decide to start a new army or keep posting theoretical lists, and when asked 'who'll you play with' answer with 'dunno, last game I had was a year ago'.

Couldn't. Agree. More. Got a few guys in my meta who were put on furlough from COVID. They're getting paid until the end of January. So for now they've been fine. But they've been out of work for almost six months now, with no guarantee that they'll be put back on staff again in two weeks. Their employment status is effectively 'TBD'. And so of course they're staying home (Did you know you can go outside for exercise?), so they're buying mountains of hobby, and barely doing any of it, because there's no point, because there's no games. Then they have to sell off their **** because they're not using it, and it's all new in box, with the shrink-wrap on, that they're selling at second-hand prices because they have to.

Dude. You don't even play games. Your employment is in jeopardy. How 'bout you don't buy hobby just yet? I know you're basically getting free money right now (sorry, all of America), but that doesn't mean you should be spending it on toy soldiers. But, you know, depressed people gonna be depressed, and they're gonna look for something to do (Try exercise? The endorphins you get from exercise last longer than the endorphins you get from impulse-buying a box of Reivers, I promise). GW has capitalised hard. Like I said, COVID is arguably the best thing that's ever happened to GW.

Same sort of people for whom 2 years is 'not enough time' between codex releases

lol
Talk to Space Marine players, who had to buy 3 Codecies in two years, plus a Supplement.

I and the rest of the parents with young children, long commutes, and extremely limited free time appreciate your understanding that we might want to actually enjoy what we bought without having to constantly pay the "keep current tax".

That's a good way of putting it.
Warhammer isn't pay to win (it isn't, it absolutely isn't). But, there is a steady and constant 'Keep Current Tax', because that's literally GW's business model. I keep pointing it out to people. But they insist that they should still be able to use the Tactical Marines they bought 8 years ago.

[Forum Explorer]

That's a good way of putting it.
Warhammer isn't pay to win (it isn't, it absolutely isn't). But, there is a steady and constant 'Keep Current Tax', because that's literally GW's business model. I keep pointing it out to people. But they insist that they should still be able to use the Tactical Marines they bought 8 years ago.

I feel that more depends on what army you're playing. I mean, everyone has the 'Codex tax' where you have to keep buying new Codexes and rule supplements. Unless you decide to just take one of the free alternatives that exist. But other than that, it's really faction dependent. A bunch of armies basically keep the same line of models for multiple editions before they see a new datasheet.

Though I gotta say, it helps if you just never sell your used stuff. Eventually you hit a point where unless it's a completely new unit that's never been in your Codex before, you'll likely already have it. And with how bad the second hand market prices are for selling, I've never found it worth it, particularly due to my memories of my models.

[Cheesegear]

I feel that more depends on what army you're playing.

No it doesn't, it depends on when you start collecting, and ideally you started collecting your models long before buff/nerf cycle.

I mean, everyone has the 'Codex tax' where you have to keep buying new Codexes and rule supplements.

GW releases FAQs and Errata every 3-6 months. Keep up. The Codex doesn't change. The models you need to have, changes.
That's the 'Keep Up Tax'; Your existing models are terrible. Buy new models. Happens multiple times per year, not just with a Codex change.

A bunch of armies basically keep the same line of models for multiple editions before they see a new datasheet.

Why does that matter?
As a new player, I buy the Codex, and I buy a 2000 Point army. Since I have my 2000 Point army, I can stop now, right? Or, maybe I start a new Faction, 'cause I'm done, here.
3-6 months later GW releases an Errata that nerfs that player's army build into the ground. Maybe it's an entire edition change that causes an army to be totally terrible? But we haven't seen that before. Maybe GW decides that Imperial Fists shouldn't use Grav-Cannons anymore and now all those models are trash? But again, just speculating.

That player's army is now terrible, and he will lose every game he plays from now on, unless he buys new models. Pay the tax.

Players can't 'just change' their armies at the drop of a hat. It costs money and time. That's what I've been saying for...Since the launch of 9th Ed.?
That's why when a buff or nerf happens, a lot of people get very upset.

On this very forum; "Nice Rubrics, buy Tzaangors."; "REEEEEE..."
Smash cut to a few years later.
Rubrics are good again, and Tzaangors are in the trash.

That's terrible for everyone who actually did buy Tzaangors at the time. 'Cause now they need to buy Rubrics, which they don't have, and now the Tzaangors aren't worth anything.
But it's great for people who already had the Rubrics in the first place.
Just kidding. 9th Ed. Rubrics are terrible again. Sucks if you bought them.

(P.S. The time between Rubrics been good, and then bad again, was <6 months, and there was no new Codex or new models. Ritual of Damned came out January. 9th Ed. came out in ~June. Well that sucks. The lifespan of Rubrics was very, very short lived.)

Though I gotta say, it helps if you just never sell your used stuff.

It helps if you started collecting a Faction when a unit was good, got nerfed, and then got good again. That way you already have the unit from 3 years ago.
The goal to avoid the issue of your stuff being bad, is to time travel to the middle of 7th Ed., and buy it then, so you have it now.
Genius.

Eventually you hit a point where unless it's a completely new unit that's never been in your Codex before you'll likely already have it.

Uhh...wat. You're saying that everyone buys every unit in the Codex? Even if it doesn't (currently) have a place in their existing army?
I wish I and all my friends, and all the 16 year-olds in my meta had as much disposable income as you do.

And with how bad the second hand market prices are for selling

The secondary market is terrible for selling bad units. Because everyone knows what you know; The reason you're selling them, is 'cause they're bad. So why would someone buy your trash?
In my experience, the reason for selling models isn't so you get cash. The reason is to free space in your house so you can put something - or someone - else in its place.

[Mystic Muse]

I've been going through all my non-dry or texture GW paints, and transferring every one I can to dropper bottles. Some have not been worth salvaging, and some I've filled with multiple pots. So, I have 42 dropper bottles instead of 60+ GW pots. I have 47 pots left to go through tomorrow while watching Great British Baking show with my mom.

Will make storing them much easier, and I shouldn't have to worry so much about them drying out and such.

[Cheesegear]

I've been going through all my non-dry or texture GW paints, and transferring every one I can to dropper bottles.

I've been meaning to do that with all of my major paints that I use the most (i.e; Yellows, Blues and Reds [in that order]) for the last two months.
Still haven't done it, 'cause I am the sux.

Have you managed to do the thing where you keep the paint's label intact?

[Mystic Muse]

I've been meaning to do that with all of my major paints that I use the most (i.e; Yellows, Blues and Reds [in that order]) for the last two months.
Still haven't done it, 'cause I am the sux.

Have you managed to do the thing where you keep the paint's label intact?

Yup. It's been a bit of a pain (UNSURPRISINGLY Lupercal green betrayed me) but all of the labels are as legible as they were on the GW pots, and staying on.

I've gotten to the point where a funnel is more trouble than it's worth, and can reasonably effectively pour straight in without spillage.

I was going to paint tonight, but felt paranoid about paints steadily drying out and such, so felt it would be more prudent to resume this project.

Painting will wait until it's done.

[Forum Explorer]

No it doesn't, it depends on when you start collecting, and ideally you started collecting your models long before buff/nerf cycle.



GW releases FAQs and Errata every 3-6 months. Keep up. The Codex doesn't change. The models you need to have, changes.
That's the 'Keep Up Tax'; Your existing models are terrible. Buy new models. Happens multiple times per year, not just with a Codex change.



Why does that matter?
As a new player, I buy the Codex, and I buy a 2000 Point army. Since I have my 2000 Point army, I can stop now, right? Or, maybe I start a new Faction, 'cause I'm done, here.
3-6 months later GW releases an Errata that nerfs that player's army build into the ground. Maybe it's an entire edition change that causes an army to be totally terrible? But we haven't seen that before. Maybe GW decides that Imperial Fists shouldn't use Grav-Cannons anymore and now all those models are trash? But again, just speculating.

That player's army is now terrible, and he will lose every game he plays from now on, unless he buys new models. Pay the tax.

Players can't 'just change' their armies at the drop of a hat. It costs money and time. That's what I've been saying for...Since the launch of 9th Ed.?
That's why when a buff or nerf happens, a lot of people get very upset.

On this very forum; "Nice Rubrics, buy Tzaangors."; "REEEEEE..."
Smash cut to a few years later.
Rubrics are good again, and Tzaangors are in the trash.

That's terrible for everyone who actually did buy Tzaangors at the time. 'Cause now they need to buy Rubrics, which they don't have, and now the Tzaangors aren't worth anything.
But it's great for people who already had the Rubrics in the first place.
Just kidding. 9th Ed. Rubrics are terrible again. Sucks if you bought them.

(P.S. The time between Rubrics been good, and then bad again, was <6 months, and there was no new Codex or new models. Ritual of Damned came out January. 9th Ed. came out in ~June. Well that sucks. The lifespan of Rubrics was very, very short lived.)



It helps if you started collecting a Faction when a unit was good, got nerfed, and then got good again. That way you already have the unit from 3 years ago.
The goal to avoid the issue of your stuff being bad, is to time travel to the middle of 7th Ed., and buy it then, so you have it now.
Genius.



Uhh...wat. You're saying that everyone buys every unit in the Codex? Even if it doesn't (currently) have a place in their existing army?
I wish I and all my friends, and all the 16 year-olds in my meta had as much disposable income as you do.



The secondary market is terrible for selling bad units. Because everyone knows what you know; The reason you're selling them, is 'cause they're bad. So why would someone buy your trash?
In my experience, the reason for selling models isn't so you get cash. The reason is to free space in your house so you can put something - or someone - else in its place.

Not really because some a armies don't really change. Like Craftworld and Dark Eldar didn't really change on what is good for them throughout 8th. And units have the same role as before, and they keep that role because they are the only unit in the army that actually does it. The army itself might become bad, and then you just get stuck with dealing with your faction being bad, but it's not the same extremes that Space Marines have been going through.


Not in my experience. From what I've seen people typically go 'Alright now I've got my ideal army, it's time to pick up those other things I thought were kinda cool but would only use occasionally or in casual games.' And they don't go on to a brand new army until they've built up a substantial collection, or get bored with their current army. Usually both. At which point they either shelve their current army, or sell it.

Only people just starting out get caught by meta shifts, but usually they don't know what they're doing in the first place, so it's kinda a moot point, since they likely weren't following the meta in the first place. What really gets people is when their entire army, sans maybe a very particular build, is rendered invalid. Than they are pissed off because their options are basically start an entirely new army or just not win any games.


If you bought Rubrics, and held onto them, you're in luck! They are likely to be pretty good once they get an extra wound, for however long that lasts. Just don't get rid of them, the wheel turns, what is crap will be good, and what is good will be crap. Be patient and you'll get your time to shine eventually.


I only started having disposable income once I finished University. But I started collecting when I was in Grade 1, and it took me years and multiple editions to do, but now I do have close to every unit in the Craftworld Codex. I'm just missing some special characters and Doomweavers. I even have a unit of Swooping Hawks, for all that I hate them. Also yes, there are models I got simply because I didn't have them. That's a really common phenomenon in collectors. There's that urge to get everything so you have 100% completion.

Hmm, that might actually be the problem here. I don't have a problem waiting five years for something to become good, or taking literal decades to build up a collection. In my mind, the models don't go bad, so why not hold onto them? And I've been collecting long enough that now I can just swap out something if it become utterly unplayable. I should have more empathy for people who are starting out.


I can fit my entire Warhammer collection in the trunk of my car, so even when I was living out of a hostel, I still had space for my models.

[Cheesegear]

Not really because some a armies don't really change.

Sometimes, your army doesn't even have to change, someone else's does. If your army can't deal with that, you need new models.
(See; The entire meta changing when Space Marines have 2 Wounds each now)

Like Craftworld and Dark Eldar didn't really change on what is good for them throughout 8th.

But what if I started during 7th? ...Or 3rd? And because of the launch of 8th Ed., everything I own from Drukharii is now terrible?
What if I played Craftworlds in 8th, then 9th Ed. came out and my army was garbage?

And units have the same role as before, and they keep that role because they are the only unit in the army that actually does it. The army itself might become bad

You immediately prove my point.
What you currently have, sucks. Buy new models. Pay the tax.

and then you just get stuck with dealing with your faction being bad, but it's not the same extremes that Space Marines have been going through.

Except you haven't been reading what I'm saying for the last...Long time.
In 9th Ed., Factions are not bad. Units are bad.
In order to keep playing, you must buy new models. In 9th Ed., there is almost nothing wrong with peoples' Factions.

I can't, off the top of my head, think of a Faction that has no possible way to play in the current meta.
However, what I do know, is that there are a lot of people who bought things in early 2020, that were collecting dust less than 6 months later.

Not in my experience. From what I've seen people typically go 'Alright now I've got my ideal army, it's time to pick up those other things I thought were kinda cool but would only use occasionally or in casual games.'

Then you and all your friends have a lot more disposable income than most.

Only people just starting out get caught by meta shifts

Like I said. What prevents you from being shafted is constantly buying models. Including buying the models you don't even need right now, because maybe they might be good one day soon, or maybe you unit you bought last week will get nerfed, so maybe buy another unit just in case. (e.g; Don't buy the Codex on Day, don't pre-order anything. Anything that looks good, will likely get nerfed, never buy anything.)

Remember your ABCs;
Always. Be. Consuming.

If you're always consuming, you wont run into problems down the road.

What really gets people is when their entire army, sans maybe a very particular build, is rendered invalid. Than they are pissed off because their options are basically start an entirely new army or just not win any games.

Welcome to exactly what happens when your 'collection' and your army, is the same thing.

If you bought Rubrics, and held onto them, you're in luck! They are likely to be pretty good once they get an extra wound, for however long that lasts. Just don't get rid of them, the wheel turns, what is crap will be good, and what is good will be crap. Be patient and you'll get your time to shine eventually.

That's a long way to say "Wait and see."

I only started having disposable income once I finished University. But I started collecting when I was in Grade 1, and it took me years and multiple editions to do, but now I do have close to every unit in the Craftworld Codex.

You've proven my point.

[LeSwordfish]

I think you're overestimating how competitively people play in those circumstances. If you're doing beer and pretzels and a game a couple of times a year when the kids are away, you're unlikely to want to play at the razor's edge of competitiveness, and if you only play against the same few people, who cares about what the "meta" does?

[Forum Explorer]

Sometimes, your army doesn't even have to change, someone else's does. If your army can't deal with that, you need new models.
(See; The entire meta changing when Space Marines have 2 Wounds each now)



But what if I started during 7th? ...Or 3rd? And because of the launch of 8th Ed., everything I own from Drukharii is now terrible?
What if I played Craftworlds in 8th, then 9th Ed. came out and my army was garbage?



You immediately prove my point.
What you currently have, sucks. Buy new models. Pay the tax.



Except you haven't been reading what I'm saying for the last...Long time.
In 9th Ed., Factions are not bad. Units are bad.
In order to keep playing, you must buy new models. In 9th Ed., there is almost nothing wrong with peoples' Factions.



Then you and all your friends have a lot more disposable income than most.



Like I said. What prevents you from being shafted is constantly buying models. Including buying the models you don't even need right now, because maybe they might be good one day soon, or maybe you unit you bought last week will get nerfed, so maybe buy another unit just in case. (e.g; Don't buy the Codex on Day, don't pre-order anything. Anything that looks good, will likely get nerfed, never buy anything.)

Remember your ABCs;
Always. Be. Consuming.

If you're always consuming, you wont run into problems down the road.



Welcome to exactly what happens when your 'collection' and your army, is the same thing.



That's a long way to say "Wait and see."



You've proven my point.

It happens. But your answer to it was likely the same as it always was. Like if Tanks become popular, Fire Dragons are always an anti-tank choice. Their role has never changed.


I'm actually arguing the opposite. What is good will one day suck, so buy what you want instead. If you chase the meta, you'll constantly be spending money to keep up. If you just buy what you want, eventually the meta will come to you anyways. And as your collection expands, that'll happen more and more often.


It's a general statement, not one exclusive to 9th. Like back in 7th, my cousin's Tyranids were basically completely garbage. He had one build (a flying circus) and that both highly specific, and no fun to actually play. He was rightfully pissed at that. Out of his entire army, he had about three models that were actually worth putting on the table. And because there weren't any rule updates back than, he had to wait basically all the way until 8th dropped before he actually had a chance.


No, it's a different attitude. I don't know anyone who went into Warhammer with a goal of 'I'm going to build this one army, and it's going to be perfect, and I'll never have to buy anything ever again.' It's always much more along the lines of 'I'm going to collect Imperial Knights because I love giant robots. I want all the giant robots. Volcano Cannon? I love the sound of that. I want me some Volcano cannon.' They don't worry about winning until much later, if ever. They spend the same amount of money as you do on Warhammer. In fact, they likely spend a fair bit less. Because the question isn't 'What do I need to buy to win?' it's 'How do I win with what I've got?'


Sure, because they don't stop collecting, unless they quit Warhammer altogether. Like I said, there's no end goal. So long as the desire for giant robots remains, they keep buying giant robots. And eventually you just have the situation of 'hey I've got a giant robot that's good at handling that problem!' It just happens. There's no expectation of 'I'll buy this and never buy another model again.' Nor is there one of 'I have to buy this, or I can't play the game and win.' Even if the latter can be true sometimes.


Like I said, it's not 'wait and see', it's 'don't worry'. Buy what you want and don't sell anything unless you are quitting that army altogether. Particularly these days. In the past you'd have to wait years for something to get fixed. But now you can typically expect things to get better within months, half a year at most. Unless you play Space Marines, because they decided all your old Firstborn stuff needed to be replaced with Primaris Marines.


Your point is that there is a keep current tax you need to pay. I'm saying that's an illusion caused by a competitive meta and a desire to be the best. Relax. There's no obligation to buy something you don't want. And there's no reason to wait for the meta to shift to what you want either. It'll just change again. Buy what you want, do the best with what you've got. That's a healthier attitude to have, and I think your victories will be all the sweeter for it.

Honestly, I think this springs from the fact that I didn't have disposable income through the majority of my collecting career. I had what I had, and typically I either had to save for a long time to get something new, or I had to wait for someone to sell something used (in which case it was typically random). I literally could not afford to chase the meta, so I didn't even think of it. I just set my goal on what I wanted, saved up for that, bought it, and than started saving for the next thing. Or buying stuff used for cheap. It didn't matter what it was if it was cheap enough. It was for Eldar, and was dirt cheap? I bought it because that's what I could afford.

That's also why I'm such an advocate for buying used stuff. If you aren't picky, you can pick up entire armies for a fraction of the cost.

[Cheesegear]

It happens. But your answer to it was likely the same as it always was. Like if Tanks become popular, Fire Dragons are always an anti-tank choice. Their role has never changed.

And my argument is that that's irrelevant. Because in that sense, nothing ever changes:
A Tactical Marine, in 5th Ed., had Power Armour and a Boltgun, and was the best Troop in the game.
~15 years later, in 9th Ed., a Tactical Marine still has Power Armour and a Boltgun...But is worthless, now.
But it's the same model. With more or less the same rules. Nothing's changed! ...Except everything has.

Tactical Marines are among the worst units in the Codex, and yet nothing about them has changed in more or less 20 years.

What is good will one day suck, so buy what you want instead. If you chase the meta, you'll constantly be spending money to keep up.

What you want, sucks. So don't buy it. Is what the actual non-consumer might say.

If you just buy what you want, eventually the meta will come to you anyways.

How long you got?

Because the question isn't 'What do I need to buy to win?' it's 'How do I win with what I've got?'

I have a feeling you haven't played much of 9th Ed.
Because the game now gets broken by accident on a regular basis by new players all the time.

"How can you win with what you've got?" is now a crapshoot. Because what wins games and how to win games, is so specific, now.

So long as the desire for giant robots remains, they keep buying giant robots.

I actually said "But I don't believe that." out loud, it was so preposterous.
The only way I can believe that, is if that person doesn't play games.

There's no expectation of 'I'll buy this and never buy another model again.'

GW utterly relies on the non-discerning customer being non-discerning.
We can agree on that.

In the past you'd have to wait years for something to get fixed. But now you can typically expect things to get better within months, half a year at most.

Half a year at most? Alright.
Grey Knights.
Thousand Sons.
Astra Militarum.
...any Heretic Astartes book that isn't Death Guard. Even though Death Guard literally just came out I know someone will point at Death Guard's new Codex to try and prove me wrong but I'm pre-empting that, and excluding Death Guard.

9th Ed. dropped in July. The joke is, that Grey Knights and Thousand Sons and non-Death Guard are all Astartes Codecies, too.

I'm saying that's an illusion caused by a competitive meta and a desire to be the best. Relax.

No, it's an meta-state caused by an arms race in a meta where no-one likes losing if they don't have to.
It's a meta-state caused by someone losing a game, and then saying "Well that didn't work, what should I do to win next game?", that is, a meta-state caused by players learning and improving how to play the game and knowing what works.

However, as I've said time and time and time again. "Playtesting." isn't a real thing. If you know how the game is played, and you know how the game works, you don't need to playtest anything, because you can read your Codex. The things that do the things that cause you to win games, are what you need to buy...And you can just buy good stuff, from Day 1. Scary, but it's true.

If what you like, is good...Buy it. Why wouldn't you?

There's no obligation to buy something you don't want.

Never said there was. In fact I'm actively against such a thing.
The same way that I'm not actually against anyone changing the fluff for their army.
The same way that I'm not actually against anyone's paint scheme.

I have questions about what you might be doing. But also I can't nor wont stop you. You do you.
If you don't want to buy models, then don't. It's your money.

And there's no reason to wait for the meta to shift to what you want either. It'll just change again.

Under that logic, there's a chance that no-one should buy anything.
What everyone should do, is use proxies, at all times. Because the rules can change on GW's whim, which means the rules you have for any models are pointless. The only thing that matters is your model's appearance. And if you want to use Guardians as Fire Dragons, then you should do that. Because Guardians are pointless, and Fire Dragons are almost on-meta (almost), and why spend money if you don't have to?

After all, Bring It Down could become worthless at any time and then at that point Fire Dragons wouldn't be worth anything. So why buy Fire Dragons? I sure hope Bring It Down doesn't get de-incentivised anytime soon...Too late.
Just buy the cheapest kits for your Factions, and then proxy them as anything you want, roughly the same size and/or shape.

Buy what you want. Proxy what you want.
That's the smartest move. You will never worry about anything you don't have, getting buffed, and you'll never worry about what you have, getting nerfed.

Buy what you want, do the best with what you've got. That's a healthier attitude to have, and I think your victories will be all the sweeter for it.

"The game is rigged, that's why it's gonna be so good when I win."
...You just described the psychology behind slot machines. (Link; Australian song about Poker Machines)

[Voidhawk]

The issue being there is a genuine disconnect between users who care about stuff like actually getting to use and play with their stuff, and GW's target customer who just buys stuff with no rhyme nor reason. Like the many people with piles of grey unassembled stuff who somehow decide to start a new army or keep posting theoretical lists, and when asked 'who'll you play with' answer with 'dunno, last game I had was a year ago'.

Same sort of people for whom 2 years is 'not enough time' between codex releases who want to 'enjoy' a stale meta for the better part of a decade due to only getting to play like once a year.

Counterpoint: a game that requires constant change is a bad game. The existence of a "meta-game" that requires continuous expenditure of time and money is a bad thing.

Chess has no metagame. Poker has no metagame. Neither does Stratego, or any number of other boardgames, wargames or videogames I could name. The existence of a metagame is a symptom of a game being bad.

The choices you make during a game, should matter far more than any choices made between games. Games can and should be deep, with multiple available strategies and routes to victory.
If there's a metagame that gets solved in a week, and the game collapses into two or three strategies with no counter-play, the solution is not "rotate the meta and make a different trio top-dog". All that does is try and cover up that the game doesn't function. The solution is "go back to the core of the game and redo your base mechanics" until it stops happening.

40k is a bad game. People have fun with it despite the rules and GW. Not because of.

There are four groups that influence how companies do business: government, shareholders, employees and customers.
Government can't be relied on, shareholders only want profit, and employees have their own issues: the only group capable of advocating for a better product are customers.
A healthy community of players should be pushing back against GW constantly, demanding a better, longer-lasting product.

IMO the best rule-set that GW has ever created is Bloodbowl. It has a good balance between skill and luck, lots of strategy to learn/explore, a plethora of different races, and an understanding that certain teams are harder to win with than others. Now imagine if 40k looked like that! The key was: it got to a good point and then GW stopped meddling for 20 years. It thrived outside GW control, and I consider GW sticking its dirty fingers into the rules to be a very big negative for its future.

Buy what you want. Proxy what you want.
That's the smartest move. You will never worry about anything you don't have, getting buffed, and you'll never worry about what you have, getting nerfed.

QFT. A healthy community should separate rules from models. It reduces the hold GW has on you, and encourages them to make better rules rather than just stronger ones.

[Blackhawk748]

If you bought Rubrics, and held onto them, you're in luck! They are likely to be pretty good once they get an extra wound, for however long that lasts. Just don't get rid of them, the wheel turns, what is crap will be good, and what is good will be crap. Be patient and you'll get your time to shine eventually.

This isn't a MOBA, this is a game where you drop 200 dollars on a unit, spend hours assembling and painting them, only to have them spend, sometimes YEARS, as useless trash even casually. That sort of thing is not ok.

Other Wargames manage to keep some semblance of functionality even with "bad" units. 40k is only getting worse with this and its frankly unacceptable.

[LeSwordfish]

This isn't a MOBA, this is a game where you drop 200 dollars on a unit, spend hours assembling and painting them, only to have them spend, sometimes YEARS, as useless trash even casually. That sort of thing is not ok.

This is why the real solution is the mental shift required to choose things based on what you don't mind losing with. "keeping up with the meta" is expensive and pointless and annoying, don't get me wrong, but it's also entirely optional if you're chill.

[Brookshw]

But what keeps the busy people from just playing whatever they have in dead tree format with their friends? The issue I have is foggies demanding the world doesn't move to outpace them; they can do whatever with their hobby money / time, but when they bemoan the faster pace for those who actually do use those new rules it gets a bit silly

There's no such thing as a dead paper league as far as I'm aware, usually games are set up through the normal gaming communities based on the general pool of players, if you try to do it just between busy people then you're scheduling weeks in advance with a decent chance one of you will have to cancel.

At a certain point it becomes a matter of needing to invest hundreds of dollars a year on rules - not models - you may not get to use, especially if you own multiple armies. It's do-able, but after a certain point, why bother? People who play regularly and can spend the day at the local store, push lever get pellet. For those who can only play rarely, push lever 5 times, get a portion of a pellet. ROI just isn't worth it.

This can be an undesirable solution for everyone, you spend less money at the store, buy less from GW, and recommend the game to fewer people (I know several people I could get into it with a little encouragement, but do I want to do that?). You might buy a few pieces you want to paint, but you won't bother picking up enough to round it out as an army (i.e., more lost sales potential).

Is it a business trade off for which type of customer to target and is better? Dunno, clearly GW is making money and has decided how they want to market, but otoh, I've shopped at the local store for over 30 years, spent thousands on GW in the last five years alone, and would continue to do so if I was satisfied in the ROI, but the damned tax just de-incentivizes the matter.

@Cheesegear, I wasn't talking about minis but acknowledge that is a separate issue.

From my phone.