Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

[LansXero]

Was there much change in points for the DG between the FAQ and their book?

[Forum Explorer]

Was there much change in points for the DG between the FAQ and their book?

Didn't the FAQ come out after their book?

I'm more amused that they corrected the Reavers being horribly undercosted in about a month. But the Chief Apothecary being horribly undercosted still doesn't even get touched. I'm pretty sure the Chief Apothecary would need to be +50 points before it stops being an auto-take in nearly every army.

[Squark]

I'm more amused that they corrected the Reavers being horribly undercosted in about a month. But the Chief Apothecary being horribly undercosted still doesn't even get touched. I'm pretty sure the Chief Apothecary would need to be +50 points before it stops being an auto-take in nearly every army.

The Combat Revival portion just needs to be sharpied through. Bringing back Attack Bikes, Centurions, Terminators, Blade Guard, or Aggressors is just too much to do for free. You could try limiting the strategem to 2W models* or Troops**, but it's still a nightmare.

*So Devastators and Company Veterans
**So Heavy Intercessors

[Cheesegear]

Fire. Dragons. Seriously. Fire. Freaking. Dragons.

Also, non-protect Wblades aren't any more durable than regular Gravis stuff, and he has no warlock so of course they'll get wrecked.

Also, even with Blast in the world, 2x units of Dark Reapers is bad. Like, horribly bad. Because you cant fire & fade 2 units, can't Guide 2 units, cant Conceal / Protect / Forewarned 2 units, etc.

Once again, there's a big issue with how armies are built by normal people who aren't necessarily tournament players. Even if they know what's good, even if they know what the hotness, is. They still have to buy it. The Dark Reapers are a holdover from 8th Ed., while he buys and/or makes more Support Weapons, because Support Weapons are basically Mek Gunz, and expensive for what amounts to dirt-cheap, single models.

It's rare that you wake up one day and the list you already have, is the best you can have.

But the Chief Apothecary being horribly undercosted still doesn't even get touched.

The Combat Revival portion just needs to be sharpied through...

In 8th Ed., you could bring a model back on a 4+, or heal for D3 Wounds. That 'or' is incredibly important. That 4+ roll was also important, because there were times when your Apothecary did ****-all in a game, and it was a total waste of points. But when it worked, it was great. Apothecaries were certainly 'good' units (especially with Centurions). But they weren't exactly an auto-include because a lot of people don't like paying points to fail.

In 9th Ed., you can bring a model back for 2 CPs, and heal for D3 Wounds, and you hand out Ignore Wounds to the Company Veterans you've got, who make the Apothecary immune to all bullets - even Sniper fire. Did I mention that the Apothecary doesn't even take a Role slot anymore? So you can spam Elite slots (e.g; Terminators) and still have room for an Apothecary.

So then you go 'Chief Apothecary', now it heals twice. That's...Fine. Each unit can still only be healed once. So the only way that works, is if you have multiple good units on the board and force your opponent to divide their fire. But who would have multiple good units on the board? That's crazy talk. Healing two units is just something you would do for fun. It's not that powerful, right? Because everyone knows that in Death Star metas there can only be one good unit on the board at a time, and nobody is playing MSU, because that's a dead format. Right? Everyone knows that the game is Objective based and you can't hold an Objective with a unit if it only has 5 models in it...

And then because Space Marines gonna Space Marines they then pick up an extra Warlord Trait for a single CP.
- The Apothecary now always heals for a full 3 Wounds. Remember that he's also healing twice per turn.
- The Apothecary can now bring back a model, per turn, for free. No roll either like in 8th Ed. It just happens.

[Forum Explorer]

The Combat Revival portion just needs to be sharpied through. Bringing back Attack Bikes, Centurions, Terminators, Blade Guard, or Aggressors is just too much to do for free. You could try limiting the strategem to 2W models* or Troops**, but it's still a nightmare.

*So Devastators and Company Veterans
**So Heavy Intercessors

Eh, maybe. That would be one way to balance it, but I do like the idea of bringing models back.

In 8th Ed., you could bring a model back on a 4+, or heal for D3 Wounds. That 'or' is incredibly important. That 4+ roll was also important, because there were times when your Apothecary did ****-all in a game, and it was a total waste of points. But when it worked, it was great. Apothecaries were certainly 'good' units (especially with Centurions). But they weren't exactly an auto-include because a lot of people don't like paying points to fail.

In 9th Ed., you can bring a model back for 2 CPs, and heal for D3 Wounds, and you hand out Ignore Wounds to the Company Veterans you've got, who make the Apothecary immune to all bullets - even Sniper fire. Did I mention that the Apothecary doesn't even take a Role slot anymore? So you can spam Elite slots (e.g; Terminators) and still have room for an Apothecary.

So then you go 'Chief Apothecary', now it heals twice. That's...Fine. Each unit can still only be healed once. So the only way that works, is if you have multiple good units on the board and force your opponent to divide their fire. But who would have multiple good units on the board? That's crazy talk. Healing two units is just something you would do for fun. It's not that powerful, right? Because everyone knows that in Death Star metas there can only be one good unit on the board at a time, and nobody is playing MSU, because that's a dead format. Right? Everyone knows that the game is Objective based and you can't hold an Objective with a unit if it only has 5 models in it...

And then because Space Marines gonna Space Marines they then pick up an extra Warlord Trait for a single CP.
- The Apothecary now always heals for a full 3 Wounds. Remember that he's also healing twice per turn.
- The Apothecary can now bring back a model, per turn, for free. No roll either like in 8th Ed. It just happens.

I don't like the chance to fail, I much prefer it just working.

I've never seen a Chief Apothecary that didn't have the warlord trait. And that is the real problem. Not the healing, though it can be pretty good. But the bring back a model for free every turn. My prefered fix is just making the upgrade reflect that point wise. I think 50 points is about the point where you'd be wondering if it was actually worth getting. 15 points is obviously an auto-include.

But there are other fixes like just removing it's ability to bring models back for free, or drastically limiting which models it can bring back.

[Cheesegear]

I don't like the chance to fail, I much prefer it just working.

Oh absolutely. The problem is that the fact that it doesn't fail hasn't been factored in.

But the bring back a model for free every turn. My prefered fix is just making the upgrade reflect that point wise. I think 50 points is about the point where you'd be wondering if it was actually worth getting.

The problem is that the 'worth' of the Apothecary is directly proportional to the models it brings back, not any sort of inherent bonus to the Apothecary. That's one of the issues.
Should an Apothecary cost 125 Points if all's your bringing back is Intercessors every turn? A Chief Apothecary isn't worth 125 Points if all's your bringing back is Intercessors.

Your solution forces players to become competitive. As the only reason to ever run an Apothecary is if you're going to be using Assault Terminators.

The correct solution would be to nerf all the major units that people use Apothecaries on; Heavy Intercessors, Assault Terminators, Aggressors and Centurions.
So far, only Centurions had the stealth nerf which is the lack of the Core Keyword.

At the moment, the Core Keyword is being used to specifically nerf Centurions, and obliterate Vehicles out of the Space Marine book (no, it's Bring It Down that's why Space Marines don't run Vehicles, idiots).
Even then, an Apothecary doesn't target Core units anyway. So that's not applicable.

But there are other fixes like just removing it's ability to bring models back for free, or drastically limiting which models it can bring back.

But there's no real way to do that. Because there's no reason that an Apothecary can heal one Space Marine, but not another.

[LansXero]

Once again, there's a big issue with how armies are built by normal people who aren't necessarily tournament players. Even if they know what's good, even if they know what the hotness, is. They still have to buy it. The Dark Reapers are a holdover from 8th Ed., while he buys and/or makes more Support Weapons, because Support Weapons are basically Mek Gunz, and expensive for what amounts to dirt-cheap, single models.

It's rare that you wake up one day and the list you already have, is the best you can have.

Wat. He already has the 10 models, just make a single unit out of them. And I doubt there are any Craftworlds players with no warlocks at all whatsoever. He just bought into the hype and changed '+1 inv on stuff that matters or -1 to enemy invs in a pinch' for 'guaranteed +1 inv on trash troop tax units that dont matter and are trash'. Warlocks are neither new nor all that hot.

Dont Support Weapons come with Guardians?

[Voidhawk]

But there's no real way to do that. Because there's no reason that an Apothecary can heal one Space Marine, but not another.

Well, that's just rubbish. What's the difference between an Aggressors/Biker/Centurion and an Intercessor/Tac-Marine? A huge pile of ceramite and guns! Stuff that when it gets smashed, can't be healed with morphine/bio-foam/bacta/whatever.

I see about as much reason for allowing an Apothecary to heal an Aggressor as a Dreadnought.

[LeSwordfish]

They should just do it like AOS does a lot of its healing things - roll a D3. Either give that many wounds back to a unit that's taken wounds, or restore one model with that many wounds remaining to a unit that has dead models and no wounds. Maybe one upgrade makes it a D6 (only one model though!) and another lets you roll it twice.

[Cheesegear]

Either give that many wounds back to a unit that's taken wounds, or restore one model with that many wounds remaining to a unit that has dead models and no wounds.

The way it used to work:
End of Movement; First, if the unit has any injured models, heal D3. If the unit does not have any injured models, roll a 4+, and replace a model with 1 wound remaining. If you fail the roll, the Apothecary can't do anything else for the rest of the turn. If the Apothecary is in Melee when it fails the roll, it can't even Fight! But, importantly, you can't bring back models if there are any wounded models in the unit. That's why Apothecaries kind of sucked. Sometimes they brought back an entire 70 Point Centurion before the Shooting phase, for free. But most of the time they healed a single Centurion for 1 Wound and didn't do anything for a turn.

The way it works, now, because there's nobody who plays Space Marines who isn't using a Chief Apothecary with Hero of the Chapter (+15 Points and 1 CP):
End of Movement; Bring a model back with full wounds (spot the difference already).
End of Movement; Heal an Infantry or Biker model for 3 Wounds. Heal another Infantry or Biker model for 3 Wounds.
Aura 3"; Ignore Wounds (6+).

...Keep in mind that the only difference between a Chief Apothecary and a regular one, is that they can't Heal twice, and bringing a model back - with full wounds - costs a CP. But a regular Apothecary can bring back models, too. Apothecaries aren't bad. It's that Chief Apothecaries with Selfless Healer are just too good in the current meta not to take because the entire meta is built around durable units, and bringing back durable models at their full wounds for essentially free, is the meta.

Why did they change it from something sensible to something totally broken?
The obvious reason.

[Avaris]

So, the app has halved in monthly subscription price to £1.99 (or local equivalent). Good. With Battle Forge actually being in now, and starting to put in Crusade support, it's now at the point where it might actually be worth subscribing, rather than a complete rip-off.

[Forum Explorer]

The problem is that the 'worth' of the Apothecary is directly proportional to the models it brings back, not any sort of inherent bonus to the Apothecary. That's one of the issues.
Should an Apothecary cost 125 Points if all's your bringing back is Intercessors every turn? A Chief Apothecary isn't worth 125 Points if all's your bringing back is Intercessors.

Your solution forces players to become competitive. As the only reason to ever run an Apothecary is if you're going to be using Assault Terminators.

The correct solution would be to nerf all the major units that people use Apothecaries on; Heavy Intercessors, Assault Terminators, Aggressors and Centurions.
So far, only Centurions had the stealth nerf which is the lack of the Core Keyword.

At the moment, the Core Keyword is being used to specifically nerf Centurions, and obliterate Vehicles out of the Space Marine book (no, it's Bring It Down that's why Space Marines don't run Vehicles, idiots).
Even then, an Apothecary doesn't target Core units anyway. So that's not applicable.



But there's no real way to do that. Because there's no reason that an Apothecary can heal one Space Marine, but not another.

Sure, but I'm pretty sure if you are taking a Chief Apothecary, you probably have a unit in mind to rez guys from. I don't think there would be very many people taking a Chief Apothecary and than nothing but Intercessors. But even if there was, what of it? Some units require certain other units to get the most use out of them. This is much the same thing.

I disagree. Nerfing the best units to use the apothecary on makes those units worse, which just makes the Chief Apothecary necessary. Kinda like when Dark Reapers were nerfed because Ynnari was really strong. It made it harder for Craftworld players to run them without going Ynnari.

Well you brought it up yourself, just change the keywords that the Selfless Healer Strat works on. You could go Core only, or Troops only. Or just cut out Gravis. Whatever. These are all options. But I still think the best option, and most realistic to expect GW to do, is to just increase the points on being a Chief Apothecary.

[Cheesegear]

Sure, but I'm pretty sure if you are taking a Chief Apothecary, you probably have a unit in mind to rez guys from.

But casuals, don't.

I don't think there would be very many people taking a Chief Apothecary and than nothing but Intercessors.

*Looks in my meta*
Alright.

*Looks at Deathwatch Combat Patrol*
You must be right.

But even if there was, what of it? Some units require certain other units to get the most use out of them. This is much the same thing.

And now we start approaching GW's double-speak:
You're totally allowed to do one thing, but if you don't do the other thing you're garbage.

Nerfing the best units to use the apothecary on makes those units worse, which just makes the Chief Apothecary necessary.

Correct. Spend more points to get the thing you want.
Because you have to ask yourself, "Can Units be used without Apothecaries?" ...Yes. Demonstrably so. Apothecaries are not a required unit. The unit, is the required unit. Raise the points cost on Assault Terminators. They desperately need it. Especially for Salamanders and Iron Hands.

This is the same with Guilliman, Razorbacks and Stormravens (and Stormtalons).
Which is the real problem?

Are Razorbacks good, without Guilliman? No. Nerf Guilliman. Not Razorbacks - and definitely not both/all of them.
Are Terminators good, without an Apothecary? Yes. It's the Terminators that need nerfing.

3 Wounds is a big deal.
Terminators were buffed through the stratosphere. Because 3-Damage weapons are a lot rarer than 2-Damage weapons. Firstborn and Primaris Marines at 2 Wounds is not an insurmountable problem for most Factions. The real problem is any unit with T5 and/or good saves, with 3 Wounds. Because that pushes the meta more towards Custodes. Which isn't what we want. But it's what we've got, now.

Grey Knight Paladins and Terminators are doing just fine without Chief Apothecaries, because it's the Terminator that's the problem - not the Apothecary.
Custodes are doing just fine without free rezzes, because it's the Custodian that's the problem themself - not their ability to rez.

Kinda like when Dark Reapers were nerfed because Ynnari was really strong. It made it harder for Craftworld players to run them without going Ynnari.

Yes. And GW was wrong, there:

Can you run Dark Reapers without going Ynnari? If the answer is 'No.', then it's not Dark Reapers that are the problem.
Can you run Terminators without an Apothecary? If the answer is 'Yes.', then it's not the Apothecary that's the problem.

Remember, this is Astra Militarum all over again. "Commissars OP, Nerf Conscripts."
When you nerf the right thing, the problem goes away.
When you nerf the wrong thing, because you don't actually understand what's good and why it's a problem, the problem persists.

You could go Core only, or Troops only. Or just cut out Gravis.

Again, with the current Keywords being as they are, that makes no sense.

Once again, I have big problems with Centurions not being a Core unit, because of what the Core Keyword, does, or rather, allows. Centurions are part of a Battle Company, and yet don't listen to Captains or Lieutenants, and the Marine inside forgets how Banners work. Meanwhile, Aggressors and Terminators are Core units, even though Terminators don't even belong in a Company. The Core Keyword, narratively, is a dumpster fire that makes no sense. I can manifest Powers on Aggressors, but apparently manifesting Powers onto Centurions causes everything to short circuit?

Troops only? Please explain why Firstborn can't be healed. Why can Intercessors be healed, but Veteran Intercessors, can't? You can heal a Tactical Squad. But Scouts and Sternguard too hard? You're not making sense. If you have a Bolt Rifle, you're fine. But if you wield a Heavy Bolter, sorry buddy, I refuse to heal you, you don't need it?

Cut out Gravis? Cool. Force people towards Assault Centurions and Terminators. That will end well, I'm sure of it. You have to nerf everything except the Apothecary.

Or, you can blanket nerf several units that need it, equally, into the ground. Like Space Marines deserve.
Right now, we're hard into the realms of the Haves and Have-Nots.

The biggest problem with the Chief Apothecary is that Combat Revival is free. That's the only problem. Make it cost CPs again. Make it cost more CPs based on the amount of wounds it brings back:
This costs 1 CP. 2 CPs, if the model brought back has 3 or more Wounds.
Having the Stratagem be free, is the real problem.

But I still think the best option, and most realistic to expect GW to do, is to just increase the points on being a Chief Apothecary.

That's right. Punish the players who aren't doing anything wrong.
Bringing back Intercessors is the same as bringing back Terminators. Because it's the Apothecary that's the problem, right?

[Forum Explorer]

But casuals, don't.



*Looks in my meta*
Alright.

*Looks at Deathwatch Combat Patrol*
You must be right.



And now we start approaching GW's double-speak:
You're totally allowed to do one thing, but if you don't do the other thing you're garbage.



Correct. Spend more points to get the thing you want.
Because you have to ask yourself, "Can Units be used without Apothecaries?" ...Yes. Demonstrably so. Apothecaries are not a required unit. The unit, is the required unit. Raise the points cost on Assault Terminators. They desperately need it. Especially for Salamanders and Iron Hands.

This is the same with Guilliman, Razorbacks and Stormravens (and Stormtalons).
Which is the real problem?

Are Razorbacks good, without Guilliman? No. Nerf Guilliman. Not Razorbacks - and definitely not both/all of them.
Are Terminators good, without an Apothecary? Yes. It's the Terminators that need nerfing.

3 Wounds is a big deal.
Terminators were buffed through the stratosphere. Because 3-Damage weapons are a lot rarer than 2-Damage weapons. Firstborn and Primaris Marines at 2 Wounds is not an insurmountable problem for most Factions. The real problem is any unit with T5 and/or good saves, with 3 Wounds. Because that pushes the meta more towards Custodes. Which isn't what we want. But it's what we've got, now.

Grey Knight Paladins and Terminators are doing just fine without Chief Apothecaries, because it's the Terminator that's the problem - not the Apothecary.
Custodes are doing just fine without free rezzes, because it's the Custodian that's the problem themself - not their ability to rez.



Yes. And GW was wrong, there:

Can you run Dark Reapers without going Ynnari? If the answer is 'No.', then it's not Dark Reapers that are the problem.
Can you run Terminators without an Apothecary? If the answer is 'Yes.', then it's not the Apothecary that's the problem.

Remember, this is Astra Militarum all over again. "Commissars OP, Nerf Conscripts."
When you nerf the right thing, the problem goes away.
When you nerf the wrong thing, because you don't actually understand what's good and why it's a problem, the problem persists.



Again, with the current Keywords being as they are, that makes no sense.

Once again, I have big problems with Centurions not being a Core unit, because of what the Core Keyword, does, or rather, allows. Centurions are part of a Battle Company, and yet don't listen to Captains or Lieutenants, and the Marine inside forgets how Banners work. Meanwhile, Aggressors and Terminators are Core units, even though Terminators don't even belong in a Company. The Core Keyword, narratively, is a dumpster fire that makes no sense. I can manifest Powers on Aggressors, but apparently manifesting Powers onto Centurions causes everything to short circuit?

Troops only? Please explain why Firstborn can't be healed. Why can Intercessors be healed, but Veteran Intercessors, can't? You can heal a Tactical Squad. But Scouts and Sternguard too hard? You're not making sense. If you have a Bolt Rifle, you're fine. But if you wield a Heavy Bolter, sorry buddy, I refuse to heal you, you don't need it?

Cut out Gravis? Cool. Force people towards Assault Centurions and Terminators. That will end well, I'm sure of it. You have to nerf everything except the Apothecary.

Or, you can blanket nerf several units that need it, equally, into the ground. Like Space Marines deserve.
Right now, we're hard into the realms of the Haves and Have-Nots.

The biggest problem with the Chief Apothecary is that Combat Revival is free. That's the only problem. Make it cost CPs again. Make it cost more CPs based on the amount of wounds it brings back:
This costs 1 CP. 2 CPs, if the model brought back has 3 or more Wounds.
Having the Stratagem be free, is the real problem.



That's right. Punish the players who aren't doing anything wrong.
Bringing back Intercessors is the same as bringing back Terminators. Because it's the Apothecary that's the problem, right?

This is kinda merging into one point, so I'm going to focus on that, namely: Are Apothecaries the problem, or are the powerful models that the Apothecary brings back the problem?

And honestly? I think it's likely both. Space Marines are in general just tuned too high, and if the rumors about the Dark Angel release are true, they are only going to get worse.

But that does mean the Apothecary is a problem. Or specifically, the Chief Apothecary is a problem. 75-80 points to heal D3 wounds and get a 6+ FNP in a 3" aura seems to be a fair price. 90-95 to heal 2x3 wounds, a 6+ FNP, and to respawn a model that can cost over 60 points is way too good. The fact that the units themselves are OP just makes it even worse. I mean, it must feel awful to be trying to whittle down a unit of Bladeguard only to have it be completely undone by an Apothecary the next turn.


Because when I do see Space Marine lists at tournaments, I see a wide variety of things like Aggressors, Eradicators, Inceptors, Assault Terminators, Attack Bikes, Bladeguard, ect, there is one thing I always see backing them up, the Chief Apothecary. Maybe if it didn't have all these OP units to effect it would be alright. Maybe if it was limited to not working on those OP units, that would work. Though you've already pointed out the fluff problems with a solution like that. But that's a large part of the Codex and lacking an ability to rewrite the entire thing from scratch, I'd say nerfing the Chief Apothecary likely would go a long way to lowering how oppressive Space Marines are right now.

[LansXero]

Space Marines are in general just tuned too high, and if the rumors about the Dark Angel release are true, they are only going to get worse.

What rumors? The book is out :o. Always-on Transhuman on ObSec Terminators is real. Add to that the Banner of 9EDisgustingly Resillient and you have something really hard to shift :v. Oh, DAs also have apothecaries on bikes and in terminator armor iirc, so more of that fun stuff too.

Also no, just nerfing the Chief Apothecary will do very little. The key to your example is not 'heh it got back', its how frustratingly hard it was to bring down in the first place. If THAT didnt happen, it could come back and it'd be not that big a deal. I do agree free stratagems need to go away and never go back, same as "max 1 of X per detachment" and slotless models, but thats integral to 9E design so it'll stay regardless of what I think

[Forum Explorer]

What rumors? The book is out :o. Always-on Transhuman on ObSec Terminators is real. Add to that the Banner of 9EDisgustingly Resillient and you have something really hard to shift :v. Oh, DAs also have apothecaries on bikes and in terminator armor iirc, so more of that fun stuff too.

Also no, just nerfing the Chief Apothecary will do very little. The key to your example is not 'heh it got back', its how frustratingly hard it was to bring down in the first place. If THAT didnt happen, it could come back and it'd be not that big a deal. I do agree free stratagems need to go away and never go back, same as "max 1 of X per detachment" and slotless models, but thats integral to 9E design so it'll stay regardless of what I think

Rumors, because I haven't been able to get a copy or find the time to read an indepth review. Therefore, I still only know the rumors.


I disagree, because well, we are seeing Chief Apothecaries in pretty much every competitive Space Marine list. But the units he's respawning varies. It isn't always Bladeguard or Terminators. It might just be something like Aggressors or Eradicators. Which are significantly easier to kill, but are so powerful that bringing one back is still a massive deal.

[Keraunograf]

Easy solution: Make Space Marines have to pay reinforcements to summon units with Apothecaries like everyone else does *Grumble grumble*.

[Cheesegear]

Easy solution: Make Space Marines have to pay reinforcements to summon units with Apothecaries like everyone else does *Grumble grumble*.

But an Apothecary doesn't Summon new units, so that wont work.

What makes an Apothecary bad, is destroying the units - entirely - surrounding them. However, as I've said, the units that exist that most people put around an Apothecary, are very hard to kill, because they've got 3 Wounds each, probably an Invulnerable save, and very often T5. If you don't kill the whole unit, the Apothecary can bring models back. If you destroy the unit, the Apothecary is useless, because when it's your turn, all's the Apothecary is doing - Chief or not - is handing out Ignore Wounds (6+), which isn't really anything.

Just go first. Just alpha strike your opponent's Terminators. Easy. What a great meta.

[LansXero]

Just go first. Just alpha strike your opponent's Terminators. Easy. What a great meta Edition.

Objectives being what they are and being always in the same place with no need to reactively adapt is what enables durable and inmovable units to shine. Its a core flaw in the entire edition design, just exacerbated by out of whack statlines.

[Brookshw]

Anyone else feel like Fire Team is redundant and they should just stick w/ Kill Team? Or is this the replacement?

[Squark]

Anyone else feel like Fire Team is redundant and they should just stick w/ Kill Team? Or is this the replacement?

Different target audience. These boxed games are for big box, mainstream stores like Target, Barnes & Noble, and the like.

As for Kill Team... I'm hoping for a 2e relaunch now that it's proven it can suceed. Condensing the 4-5 books would be welcome, and Pariah Nexus adding a bunch of units from Indomitus feels like the Specialist Games team just going nuts before an edition reset. Eradicators and Outriders have no business in KT

[Wraith]

Some new lists coming out of recent events - found the top 3 for each, will have a look for a few more when I'm not at work:

Las Vegas Nopen 2021

3rd Place - Undivided Daemons (basically a cheap vehicle to run Mortarion and Magnus)

Spoiler

Show

++ Battalion Detachment -3CP (Chaos – Daemons) [46 PL, -3CP, 995pts]
++ + Chaos Allegiance: Chaos Undivided Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]
-1 Cp Exalted Random -1 Cp Relic Impossible Robe

+ HQ + Exalted Lord of Change [14 PL, 270pts]: Bolt of Change, Boon of Change, Infernal Gateway, Smite, Staff of Tzeentch, Impossible Robe
Poxbringer [4 PL, 75pts]: Balesword, Smite, Virulent Blessing
The Changeling [6 PL, 105pts]: Gaze of Fate, Smite, The Trickster’s Staff

+ Troops
+ Horrors [12 PL, 215pts]: Daemonic Icon, Smite . 25x Pink Horror: 25x Coruscating flames
Nurglings [2 PL, 66pts] . 3x Nurgling Swarms: 3x Diseased claws and teeth
Nurglings [2 PL, 66pts] . 3x Nurgling Swarms: 3x Diseased claws and teeth
Nurglings [2 PL, 66pts] . 3x Nurgling Swarms: 3x Diseased claws and teeth
Nurglings [2 PL, 66pts] . 3x Nurgling Swarms: 3x Diseased claws and teeth
Nurglings [2 PL, 66pts] . 3x Nurgling Swarms: 3x Diseased claws and teeth

++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment -3CP (Chaos – Death Guard) [25 PL, 490pts]

++ + Lord of War + Mortarion [25 PL, 490pts]:Gloaming Bloat 1. Miasma of Pestilence, 2. Gift of plagues, Attendant’s claws and teeth, Phosphex bombs, Silence, Smite, The Lantern, Warlord

++ Supreme Command Detachment 0CP (Chaos – Thousand Sons) [24 PL, 465pts]
++ + Primarch | Daemon Primarch | Supreme Commander
+ Magnus the Red [24 PL, 465pts]: Doombolt, Smite, The Blade of Magnus, Warptime, Weaver of Fates 95 PL, 4CP, 1,950pts, 50 points reinforcement

2nd Place - Word Bearers & Slaanesh Daemons

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++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Chaos – Chaos Space Marines) [86 PL, -4CP, 1,685pts]
++ Configuration + Legion: Word Bearers
Stratagems + Gifts of Chaos (2 Relics) [-3CP]

+ No Force Org Slot + Dark Disciples [1 PL, 10pts]: No Chaos Mark .
2x Dark Disciple: 2x Close combat weapon

+ HQ + Dark Apostle [5 PL, -1CP, 80pts]: Apostle of the Dark Council, Benediction of Darkness, Epistle of Lorgar, Mark of Khorne, Soultearer Portent, Wrathful Entreaty
Master of Possession [5 PL, 95pts]: 4. Master of the Union, Cursed Earth, Infernal Power, Mark of Nurgle, Mutated Invigoration, The Malefic Tome, Warlord
Sorcerer [6 PL, 90pts]: Baleful Icon, Bolt pistol, Force sword, Mark of Nurgle, Prescience, Warptime

+ Troops + Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 60pts]: Mark of Khorne .
9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun: 9x Autogun . Cultist Champion: Autogun
Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 60pts]: Mark of Khorne . 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun: 9x Autogun . Cultist Champion: Autogun
Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 60pts]: Mark of Khorne . 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun: 9x Autogun . Cultist Champion: Autogun

+ Elites +
Possessed [20 PL, 410pts]: Icon of Excess, Mark of Slaanesh . 20x Possessed: 20x Horrifying Mutations
Possessed [20 PL, 410pts]: Icon of Excess, Mark of Slaanesh . 20x Possessed: 20x Horrifying Mutations
Possessed [20 PL, 410pts]: Icon of Excess, Mark of Slaanesh . 20x Possessed: 20x Horrifying Mutations

++ Patrol Detachment -2CP (Chaos – Daemons) [15 PL, 310pts]
++ Configuration + Chaos Allegiance: Slaanesh

+ HQ + Syll’Esske [11 PL, 230pts] Delightful agonies Hysteric frenzy

+ Troops
+ Daemonettes [4 PL, 80pts]: Alluress, Instrument of Chaos .
9x Daemonette: 9x Piercing claws

101 PL, 7CP, 1,995pts

1st place - Sororitas and Custodes

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++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium – Adepta Sororitas) [61 PL, 0CP, 1,088pts]

++ Order Convictions: Order: Bloody Rose + HQ [6 PL, -2CP, 100pts]
+ Canoness [3 PL, 50pts]: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Null Rod, Relic: Litanies of Faith, Warlord, Warlord Trait: 4. Beacon of Faith Missionary [3PL, 45pts]

+ Troops [12 PL, 165pts]
+ Battle Sister Squad [4 PL, 55pts]:
4x Battle Sister [44pts]: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Boltgun, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, Sister Superior [11pts]: Bolt pistol, Boltgun, Chainsword Battle Sister Squad [4 PL, 55pts]:
4x Battle Sister [44pts]: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Boltgun, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, Sister Superior [11pts]: Bolt pistol, Boltgun, Chainsword Battle Sister Squad [4 PL, 55pts]:
4x Battle Sister [44pts]: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Boltgun, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, Sister Superior [11pts]: Bolt pistol, Boltgun, Chainsword

+ Elites [14 PL, 308pts]
+ Death Cult Assassins [1 PL, 26pts]:
2x Death Cult Assassins [26pts]: 2x Death Cult power blades Death Cult Assassins [1 PL, 26pts]:
2x Death Cult Assassins [26pts]: 2x Death Cult power blades Sisters Repentia [6 PL, 128pts]:
8x Sisters Repentia [128pts]: 8x Penitent Eviscerator Sisters Repentia [6 PL, 128pts]:
8x Sisters Repentia [128pts]: 8x Penitent Eviscerator

+ Heavy Support [21 PL, 360pts]
+ Retributor Squad [7 PL, 120pts]: 2x Armourium Cherub [10pts], 2x Retributor [28pts]: 2x Bolt pistol, 2x Boltgun, 2x Frag & Krak grenades, Retributor Superior [14pts]: Bolt pistol, Boltgun .
Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon [34pts]: Multi-melta [20pts] .
Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon [34pts]: Multi-melta [20pts]
Retributor Squad [7 PL, 120pts]: 2x Armourium Cherub [10pts], 2x Retributor [28pts]: 2x Bolt pistol, 2x Boltgun, 2x Frag & Krak grenades, Retributor Superior [14pts]: Bolt pistol, Boltgun .
Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon [34pts]: Multi-melta [20pts] .
Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon [34pts]: Multi-melta [20pts]
Retributor Squad [7 PL, 120pts]: 2x Armourium Cherub [10pts], 2x Retributor [28pts]: 2x Bolt pistol, 2x Boltgun, 2x Frag & Krak grenades, Retributor Superior [14pts]: Bolt pistol, Boltgun .
Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon [34pts]: Multi-melta [20pts] .
Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon [34pts]: Multi-melta [20pts]

+ Dedicated Transport [8 PL, 160pts]
+ Sororitas Rhino [4 PL, 80pts]
Sororitas Rhino [4 PL, 80pts]

++ Patrol Detachment -2CP (Imperium – Adeptus Custodes) [41 PL, -5CP, 912pts]
++ Shield Host: Shadowkeepers

+ HQ [19 PL, -2CP, 368pts] + Captain-General Trajann Valoris [10 PL, 190pts]
Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike [9 PL, -2CP, 178pts]: Auric Aquilas [-1CP], Captain-Commander [-1CP], Hurricane Bolter, Indomitable Constitution, Misericordia [3pts], Superior Creation, Ten Thousand Heroes [-1CP]

+ Troops [22 PL, 544pts]
+ Custodian Guard Squad [11 PL, 275pts]: 5x Custodian [225pts]: 5 Misericordia [15pts], Sentinel Blade [10pts], Storm Shield [25pts]
Custodian Guard Squad [11 PL, 269pts]: 5x Custodian [225pts]: 3 Misericordia [9pts] Sentinel Blade [10pts], Storm Shield [25pts] 2000pts, 7CP

Hobart GT (Australia) - All lists available here, requires forum login.

10th place - Death Guard
9th place - Orks
8th place - White Scars
7th place - Salamanders
6th place - Death Guard
5th place - Adeptus Sororitas
4th place - Adeptus Sororitas
3rd place - Space Wolves ("Hamvil & Anmer" of Redemptor Dreads and Thunderwolves)

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+ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium – Adeptus Astartes – Space Wolves) [100 PL, 6CP, 2,000pts] ++

+ Configuration [12CP] +

**Chapter Selection**: Space Wolves

+ Stratagems [-3CP] +

Relics of the Chapter [-2CP]: 2x Number of Extra Relics [-2CP]

Thane of the Retinue [-1CP]

+ HQ [18 PL, -2CP, 365pts] +

Captain [6 PL, -1CP, 130pts]: Bolt pistol, Bolt pistol, Frag & Krak grenades, Jump Pack [1 PL, 25pts], Stratagem: Warrior of Legend [-1CP], The Armour of Russ, The Imperium’s Sword, Thunder hammer [20pts], Warlord, Wolfkin

Primaris Chaplain on Bike [7 PL, -1CP, 140pts]: 4. Mantra of Strength, 6. Canticle of Hate (Aura), Absolver Bolt pistol, Benediction of Fury, Chapter Command: Master of Sanctity [1 PL, 25pts], Crozius arcanum, Frag & Krak grenades, Hunter, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter [-1CP], Twin Bolt rifle

Primaris Librarian [5 PL, 95pts]: 2. Murderous Hurricane, 5. Storm Caller, 6) Psychic Fortress (Aura), Bolt pistol, Force sword, Frag & Krak grenades, Tome of Malcador

+ Troops [23 PL, 470pts] +

Infiltrator Squad [6 PL, 120pts] . 4x Infiltrator [96pts]: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Marksman bolt carbine
. Infiltrator Sergeant [24pts]: Bolt pistol, Frag & Krak grenades, Marksman bolt carbine

Infiltrator Squad [6 PL, 120pts] . 4x Infiltrator [96pts]: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Marksman bolt carbine
. Infiltrator Sergeant [24pts]: Bolt pistol, Frag & Krak grenades, Marksman bolt carbine

Infiltrator Squad [6 PL, 120pts] . 4x Infiltrator [96pts]: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Marksman bolt carbine
. Infiltrator Sergeant [24pts]: Bolt pistol, Frag & Krak grenades, Marksman bolt carbine

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 110pts]: Auto Bolt Rifle
. 4x Intercessor [80pts]: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades
. Intercessor Sergeant [30pts]: Bolt pistol, Frag & Krak grenades, Power fist [10pts]

+ Elites [45 PL, -1CP, 890pts] +

Bladeguard Veteran Squad [5 PL, 105pts] . 2x Bladeguard Veteran [70pts]: 2x Frag & Krak grenades, 2x Heavy Bolt Pistol, 2x Master-crafted power sword, 2x Storm Shield
. Bladeguard Veteran Sergeant [35pts]: Frag & Krak grenades, Heavy Bolt Pistol, Master-crafted power sword, Storm Shield

Leviathan Dreadnought [13 PL, -1CP, 230pts]: 2x Heavy Flamers, Storm cannon array [10pts] . Leviathan siege drill: Meltagun

Redemptor Dreadnought [9 PL, 185pts]: 2x Fragstorm Grenade Launchers, Icarus Rocket Pod [5pts], Macro Plasma Incinerator, Onslaught Gatling Cannon [5pts], Redemptor Fist

Redemptor Dreadnought [9 PL, 185pts]: 2x Fragstorm Grenade Launchers, Icarus Rocket Pod [5pts], Macro Plasma Incinerator, Onslaught Gatling Cannon [5pts], Redemptor Fist

Redemptor Dreadnought [9 PL, 185pts]: 2x Fragstorm Grenade Launchers, Icarus Rocket Pod [5pts], Macro Plasma Incinerator, Onslaught Gatling Cannon [5pts], Redemptor Fist

+ Fast Attack [14 PL, 275pts] +

Thunderwolf Cavalry [14 PL, 275pts] . Thunderwolf Cavalry [55pts]: Frag & Krak grenades, Lightning Claw [5pts], Storm shield [5pts], Thunderwolf
. Thunderwolf Cavalry [55pts]: Frag & Krak grenades, Lightning Claw [5pts], Storm shield [5pts], Thunderwolf
. Thunderwolf Cavalry [55pts]: Frag & Krak grenades, Lightning Claw [5pts], Storm shield [5pts], Thunderwolf
. Thunderwolf Cavalry [55pts]: Frag & Krak grenades, Lightning Claw [5pts], Storm shield [5pts], Thunderwolf
. Thunderwolf Cavalry Pack Leader [55pts]: Frag & Krak grenades, Frost Weapon, Lightning Claw [5pts], Storm shield [5pts], Thunderwolf

++ Total: [100 PL, 6CP, 2,000pts] ++

2nd place - Raven Guard (Alternate title: "1300pts of Centurions and an Apothecary")

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++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium – Adeptus Astartes – Raven Guard) [116 PL, 2,000pts, 7CP] ++

+ Configuration [12CP] +

**Chapter Selection**: Hungry for Battle, Raven Guard Successor, Whirlwind of Rage

+ Stratagems [-2CP] +

Relics of the Chapter [-2CP]: 2x Number of Extra Relics [-2CP]

+ HQ [12 PL, 235pts, -2CP] +

Primaris Chaplain on Bike [7 PL, 140pts, -1CP]: 1. Litany of Faith (Aura), 4. Mantra of Strength, Absolver Bolt Pistol, Benediction of Fury, Chapter Command: Master of Sanctity [1 PL, 25pts], Crozius arcanum, Frag & Krak grenades, Litany of Hate, Stratagem: Master of the Trifold Path [-1CP], Swift and Deadly, Twin Bolt rifle, Warlord, Wise Orator

Primaris Librarian [5 PL, 95pts, -1CP]: 1) Veil of Time, 3) Null Zone (Aura), Bolt pistol, Force sword, Frag & Krak grenades, Master of Ambush, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter [-1CP], The Armour Indomitus

+ Troops [15 PL, 295pts] +

Incursor Squad [5 PL, 105pts] . 4x Incursor [84pts]: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Occulus bolt carbine, 4x Paired combat blades
. Incursor Sergeant [21pts]: Bolt pistol, Frag & Krak grenades, Occulus bolt carbine, Paired combat blades

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 100pts]: Auto Bolt Rifle
. 4x Intercessor [80pts]: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades
. Intercessor Sergeant [20pts]: Astartes Chainsword, Bolt pistol, Frag & Krak grenades

Tactical Squad [5 PL, 90pts] . 4x Space Marine [72pts]: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Boltgun, 4x Frag & Krak grenades
. Space Marine Sergeant [18pts]: Astartes Chainsword, Boltgun, Frag & Krak grenades

+ Elites [85 PL, 1,360pts, -1CP] +

Aggressor Squad [12 PL, 240pts]: 2x Flamestorm Gauntlets, 5x Aggressor [200pts], Aggressor Sergeant [40pts]

Centurion Assault Squad [18 PL, 285pts] . Centurion [55pts]: Centurion Assault Launchers, Siege drills
. . Flamers: 2x Flamer
. Centurion [55pts]: Centurion Assault Launchers, Siege drills
. . Flamers: 2x Flamer
. Centurion [55pts]: Centurion Assault Launchers, Siege drills
. . Flamers: 2x Flamer
. Centurion [55pts]: Centurion Assault Launchers, Siege drills
. . Flamers: 2x Flamer
. Centurion Sergeant [65pts]: Centurion Assault Launchers, Siege drills
. . Meltaguns [10pts]: 2x Meltagun [10pts]

Centurion Assault Squad [18 PL, 285pts] . Centurion [65pts]: Centurion Assault Launchers, Siege drills
. . Meltaguns [10pts]: 2x Meltagun [10pts] . Centurion [55pts]: Centurion Assault Launchers, Siege drills
. . Flamers: 2x Flamer
. Centurion [55pts]: Centurion Assault Launchers, Siege drills
. . Flamers: 2x Flamer
. Centurion [55pts]: Centurion Assault Launchers, Siege drills
. . Flamers: 2x Flamer
. Centurion Sergeant [55pts]: Centurion Assault Launchers, Siege drills
. . Flamers: 2x Flamer

Centurion Assault Squad [18 PL, 285pts] . Centurion [65pts]: Centurion Assault Launchers, Siege drills
. . Meltaguns [10pts]: 2x Meltagun [10pts] . Centurion [55pts]: Centurion Assault Launchers, Siege drills
. . Flamers: 2x Flamer
. Centurion [55pts]: Centurion Assault Launchers, Siege drills
. . Flamers: 2x Flamer
. Centurion [55pts]: Centurion Assault Launchers, Siege drills
. . Flamers: 2x Flamer
. Centurion Sergeant [55pts]: Centurion Assault Launchers, Siege drills
. . Flamers: 2x Flamer

Primaris Apothecary [5 PL, 95pts, -1CP]: Absolver Bolt pistol, Artificer Armour, Chapter Command: Chief Apothecary [1 PL, 15pts], Frag & Krak grenades, Reductor Pistol, Selfless Healer, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter [-1CP]

Vanguard Veteran Squad [14 PL, 170pts]: Jump Pack [2 PL, 12pts] . Vanguard Veteran [26pts]: Frag & Krak grenades, Lightning Claw [3pts], Storm shield [4pts] . Vanguard Veteran [26pts]: Frag & Krak grenades, Lightning Claw [3pts], Storm shield [4pts] . Vanguard Veteran [26pts]: Frag & Krak grenades, Lightning Claw [3pts], Storm shield [4pts] . Vanguard Veteran [26pts]: Frag & Krak grenades, Lightning Claw [3pts], Storm shield [4pts] . Vanguard Veteran [23pts]: Astartes Chainsword, Frag & Krak grenades, Storm shield [4pts] . Vanguard Veteran Sergeant [31pts]: Frag & Krak grenades, Power fist [8pts], Storm shield [4pts]

+ Fast Attack [4 PL, 110pts] +

Attack Bike Squad [2 PL, 55pts] . Attack Bike [2 PL, 55pts]: 2x Bolt pistol, 2x Frag & Krak grenades, Multi-melta [10pts], Twin boltgun

Attack Bike Squad [2 PL, 55pts] . Attack Bike [2 PL, 55pts]: 2x Bolt pistol, 2x Frag & Krak grenades, Multi-melta [10pts], Twin boltgun

++ Total: [116 PL, 7CP, 2,000pts] ++

1st place - Space Wolves (ALL THE F***IN' LONG FANGS! Welcome back to 7th edition, boy and girls!)

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++ Patrol Detachment 0CP (Imperium – Adeptus Astartes – Space Wolves) [58 PL, 1,110pts, 10CP] ++

+ Configuration +

**Chapter Selection**: Space Wolves

+ HQ +

Librarian in Phobos Armour [6 PL, 125pts, -1CP]: 2. Lord of Deceit, 2. Murderous Hurricane, 4. Instincts Awoken, 5. Storm Caller, Chapter Command: Chief Librarian, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter, The Wulfen Stone

Primaris Chaplain on Bike [7 PL, 140pts, -1CP]: 3. Exhortation of Rage, 6. Canticle of Hate (Aura), Chapter Command: Master of Sanctity, Hunter, Stratagem: Warrior of Legend, The Armour of Russ, Warlord, Wise Orator

+ Troops +

Incursor Squad [5 PL, 105pts] . 4x Incursor: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Occulus bolt carbine, 4x Paired combat blades
. Incursor Sergeant

+ Elites +

Wolf Guard [7 PL, 140pts]: Jump Pack
. Wolf Guard: Lightning Claw, Storm shield
. Wolf Guard: Lightning Claw, Storm shield
. Wolf Guard: Lightning Claw, Storm shield
. Wolf Guard: Lightning Claw, Storm shield
. Wolf Guard Pack Leader: Lightning Claw, Storm shield

+ Fast Attack +

Cyberwolves [1 PL, 15pts]: Cyberwolf

Thunderwolf Cavalry [14 PL, 245pts] . Thunderwolf Cavalry: Storm shield, Thunder hammer
. Thunderwolf Cavalry: Storm shield, Thunder hammer
. Thunderwolf Cavalry: Astartes Chainsword, Storm shield
. Thunderwolf Cavalry Pack Leader: Storm shield, Thunder hammer

+ Heavy Support +

Long Fangs [7 PL, 135pts]: Armorium Cherub
. Long Fang: Grav-cannon
. Long Fang: Grav-cannon
. Long Fang: Grav-cannon
. Long Fang: Grav-cannon
. Long Fang Pack Leader: Astartes Chainsword
. . Boltgun and Bolt Pistol

Long Fangs [7 PL, 135pts]: Armorium Cherub
. Long Fang: Grav-cannon
. Long Fang: Grav-cannon
. Long Fang: Grav-cannon
. Long Fang: Grav-cannon
. Long Fang Pack Leader: Astartes Chainsword
. . Boltgun and Bolt Pistol

+ Dedicated Transport +

Drop Pod [4 PL, 70pts]: Storm bolter

++ Patrol Detachment -2CP (Imperium – Adeptus Astartes – Space Wolves) [48 PL, 890pts, -5CP] ++

+ Configuration +

**Chapter Selection**: Space Wolves

+ Stratagems +

Relics of the Chapter [-2CP]: 2x Number of Extra Relics

Thane of the Retinue [-1CP]

+ HQ +

Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf [7 PL, 130pts]: Power fist, Storm shield, The Armour Indomitus

+ Troops +

Blood Claws [6 PL, 90pts] . 4x Blood Claw: 4x Astartes Chainsword, 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades
. Blood Claw Pack Leader: Astartes Chainsword

+ Fast Attack +

Thunderwolf Cavalry [14 PL, 220pts] . Thunderwolf Cavalry: Lightning Claw, Storm shield
. Thunderwolf Cavalry: Lightning Claw, Storm shield
. Thunderwolf Cavalry: Lightning Claw, Storm shield
. Thunderwolf Cavalry Pack Leader: Frost Weapon, Lightning Claw, Lightning Claw

Thunderwolf Cavalry [14 PL, 275pts] . Thunderwolf Cavalry: Power fist, Storm shield
. Thunderwolf Cavalry: Lightning Claw, Storm shield
. Thunderwolf Cavalry: Astartes Chainsword, Storm shield
. Thunderwolf Cavalry: Astartes Chainsword, Storm shield
. Thunderwolf Cavalry Pack Leader: Power fist, Storm shield

+ Heavy Support +

Long Fangs [7 PL, 175pts]: Armorium Cherub
. Long Fang: Multi-melta
. Long Fang: Multi-melta
. Long Fang: Multi-melta
. Long Fang: Multi-melta
. Long Fang Pack Leader: Astartes Chainsword
. . Boltgun and Bolt Pistol

++ Total: [106 PL, 2,000pts, 5CP] ++

Have to admit, I'm still struggling to process just how much *stuff* you can fit into 2000 points. Playing Iyanden Aeldari and running 30 Wraithguard for ~1300pts for a couple of years really messes with your perspective, let me tell you.

[LansXero]

so Drukhari previews are starting, and of course they lead with that trademark of the faction:

Melee.

Kabalites.

"1 extra attack on your T3 S3 model with no save surely means anything! its not a joke!"

[LeSwordfish]

I wonder if +1 attack is a universal thing. I suspect that article was soley to forestall people posting the rules in the new boxes online, since the new boxes with their rules will beat the book to stores.

[LansXero]

I wonder if +1 attack is a universal thing.

Wyches and Wracks can maybe perhaps get some use out of it. Does nothing on Kabal units though, and if it comes with a price increase like the extra wound for Marines did, then its actually harmful overall.

[Rizhail]

Looking at what little that preview shows us, we can see a few changes to Kabalites.

Stat line wise, the +1 attack is called out in the preview, but you can see that the armor save has gone from 5+ to 4+, so kabalite warriors are basically aspect warriors now. I'll agree that this weird focus on Kabals getting melee related upgrades or stats (looking at you, psychic awakening!) is really dumb, what with Kabals being the one-third of the Drukhari that actually focus on ranged firepower, though I can't complain about a save boost. Or at least, can't complain if their points don't go up much, if at all. They're still squishy as all hell.

Splinter cannons have gone from 36" Rapid Fire 3, S*, AP 0, D1 with Poisoned Weapon trait to 36" Heavy 3, S3, AP -1, D2 with Poisoned Weapon (4+) trait. Loss of firepower at short range compared to the old profile is meh, but the damage and AP are damned solid, and we now have a really good reason to always take double cannons on Venoms. Curious about the strength and trait change though; I get the feeling we'll see Poisoned Weapon become something like wounds infantry/monsters on the value listed in parenthesis, unless the weapon's str vs target's toughness would be a better roll.

[LansXero]

I forget, do all vehicles have the 'weapons become assault' bit or is it just Raiders? Infantry weapons becoming Heavy is worse though, since embarked units still count as moving and hitting at BS4 is crap.

Also, since last friday D2 at a premium became worthless, due to Banner of Remembrance on W3 units with ObSec. Need 4 damage at least per shot to bring down a DA Termie, and D2 gets reduced to D1 because **** anything that isnt a Marine.

[Voidhawk]

Kabalite Warrior "Improvements":
- 4+ save and +1 Attack. Both technically better, but neither worth paying extra for. If they increase in points at all, worthless.
- Splinter Cannons are now DMG 2... but drop from Rapid Fire 3 to Heavy 3.

This means:
1) Splinter cannons got better against exactly W2+ at 36"-18" range.
2) They're the same against W2+ at <18" range.
3) They're worse against literally everything else.
4) Infantry don't want to carry them, because they take -1 to hit when they (or their transport) move.

Typical WarCom article. Says they want to move and get "up close", then reveals nerfs that make them want to stay stationary at 36" range.

If this is the best they could come up with for previews, I'm out.

[Forum Explorer]

so Drukhari previews are starting, and of course they lead with that trademark of the faction:

Melee.

Kabalites.

"1 extra attack on your T3 S3 model with no save surely means anything! its not a joke!"

I don't know why GW thinks Kabalites are a melee army but this isn't the first time they've made that mistake. The +1 to their save is interesting. Now they won't immediately dissolve into paste the moment their transport gets popped, it'll take a few seconds instead.

Kabalite Warrior "Improvements":
- 4+ save and +1 Attack. Both technically better, but neither worth paying extra for. If they increase in points at all, worthless.
- Splinter Cannons are now DMG 2... but drop from Rapid Fire 3 to Heavy 3.

This means:
1) Splinter cannons got better against exactly W2+ at 36"-18" range.
2) They're the same against W2+ at <18" range.
3) They're worse against literally everything else.
4) Infantry don't want to carry them, because they take -1 to hit when they (or their transport) move.

Typical WarCom article. Says they want to move and get "up close", then reveals nerfs that make them want to stay stationary at 36" range.

If this is the best they could come up with for previews, I'm out.

You forgot about the AP -1

Problem is that Disintigrators are S5 Ap-2 D2. So the new Splinter Cannons are just worse Disintigrators. I mean, I assume Disintigrators will change, but it's hard to be happy when you've already got a gun that does this exact thing, but now you no longer have a gun that just puts out a massive amount of shots.

[LansXero]

You forgot about the AP -1

At half the number of shots and -1 to hit though, its still nothing. A sidegrade at best, unless point cost also goes up.