Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

[Forum Explorer]

I don't think Kabalites having +1 Attack is the main selling point of the Codex. But maybe it is?
As I've said, the nails in the coffin will be whether Grotesques, Clawed Fiends and Engines are still the only viable units in the Codex.

I think he was more saying 'Terminators got buffed with a bunch of different things, all amazing vs Kabalites, a shooty unit, got buffed by giving them an extra melee attack.' So one army got multiple buffs on an already good unit to make it broken. The other army got a buff that didn't really help them on a unit that really needs some love to be able to compete.

Or basically 'not all power creep is equal.'

Except that's not actually the options.

The Options are

"A game that's broken in the same ways from start to finish."

or

"A game where the things that are broken rotate periodically as GW decides to rotate them in order to sell models."

At no point do you get a non-broken game.

Except we did get a non-broken game during 8th. It was only like six months or so, but it was preceded by improvements. It was broken, but it was usually getting better every time a CA or a new FAQ dropped.

Than they broke it again with the Space Marine supplements, and the edition ended before they could fully fix things from there. So yeah, the non-broken state didn't last. But it was better than anything we had before. Particularly coming from 7th which was just awful. Like, I'm not sure which was the most balanced edition before 8th, but it certainly wasn't 7th or 6th, that's for sure.

[LansXero]

Yup, not all power creep is the same and no all imbalance is the same, there is a degree thats necessary due to factions not being mirrors and there needing to be subpar choice for list building to matter, plus a bit of not being possible to design a perfect game in before cut off date at the printers. But, currently, the gaps and the shifts are way too pronounced, to the point the have nots are much more in the mud than they ever were. Even with Aeldari Airwings and whatever "dominating" the 8E meta, before Marines/2 ruined things the field looked a lot more diverse and the non-ITC ruleset lent itself to a much wider array of not just factions but actual playstyles.

[Cheesegear]

...before Marines/2 ruined things the field looked a lot more diverse and the non-ITC ruleset lent itself to a much wider array of not just factions but actual playstyles.

Because the win conditions (of Maelstrom) allowed for different playstyles. The fraction of time that passed between the release of Marines/2, and Maelstrom '19, was almost fine. Marines dominated. But hordes were still a big part of the game because of the win conditions of the game.

You don't know what you have to do, when. Objectives are weighted differently. KPs are actually weighted the worst.
Your list has to be effective at almost everything. Killing your opponents models isn't actually the aim of the game.
Achieving Objectives is the fastest way to cycle the deck. So...Get achieving.

This is why Maelstrom '19 was the literal worst:
You know exactly what you have to do. Any Objective you don't like, is gone. KPs are easy as ****.
Discarding Objectives is the fastest way to cycle the deck. So Discard as hard as you can.

In 9th Ed., there is one way to win to (easily) win the game. A game is balanced around its win conditions. Because the win conditions determine how the game is played.

[AdmiralCheez]

According to this fun article ranking ways to die in Commorragh, it sounds like the Drukhari Codex is available for pre-order starting March 20! I know I'm looking forward to having updated rules, whatever they might end up being!

[Forum Explorer]

According to this fun article ranking ways to die in Commorragh, it sounds like the Drukhari Codex is available for pre-order starting March 20! I know I'm looking forward to having updated rules, whatever they might end up being!

I think that puts the Codex itself being released March 27th?

[AdmiralCheez]

I think that puts the Codex itself being released March 27th?

Is that the usual timeframe? I wanted to ask, but wasn't sure if there was a pattern to the release dates or not. I'll make sure to check my local shop that day just in case!

[Renegade Paladin]

Is that the usual timeframe? I wanted to ask, but wasn't sure if there was a pattern to the release dates or not. I'll make sure to check my local shop that day just in case!

They put products up for preorder one week before release, so yes.

[Misery Esquire]

According to this fun article ranking ways to die in Commorragh, it sounds like the Drukhari Codex is available for pre-order starting March 20! I know I'm looking forward to having updated rules, whatever they might end up being!

Maybe the Plane of Infinite Shadow Stabbers fluff point will now become a codex unit, since they mentioned it in a Codex lead-up and it was a plot point recently.

... Hey, the Dark Elves can dream even if they really should stop.

[AdmiralCheez]

Maybe the Plane of Infinite Shadow Stabbers fluff point will now become a codex unit, since they mentioned it in a Codex lead-up and it was a plot point recently.

... Hey, the Dark Elves can dream even if they really should stop.

Ooh, I hope so! I won't say no to new units.

[Cheesegear]

Like 40K, like some...Smaller game.

The new expansion for Kill Team has been out for a week, and the reviews are...Not great.
It adds almost nothing to the game.

Space Marines have been updated, un-nerfed, and then buffed, and are expected to completely ruin the meta. No. They're unlikely to be winning tournaments anytime soon. But they can - and will - be expected to make up the vast majority of the competitive game. Much like 40K, Space Marines will gatekeep the competitive meta, and obliterate the casual meta.

Compared to Space Marines...Necrons are a joke. Just like 40K.

The box price for Pariah Nexus, is also a joke, which only adds insult to injury.

[LansXero]

To spit on people who bought the expensive KT set, the independent heavy intercessor kits haven been leaked, which means they've been produced and will likely release soon, ****ting on the one one upside of an overpriced, crappy set.

[LeSwordfish]

They did say they would be coming soon. I'm glad they're not exclusive for long.

[Renegade Paladin]

Yeah, that shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. There was no way they were going to remain exclusive to a Kill Team box.

[Cheesegear]

To spit on people who bought the expensive KT set, the independent heavy intercessor kits haven been leaked, which means they've been produced and will likely release soon, ****ting on the one one upside of an overpriced, crappy set.

What? No. Anyone who thought Intercessors weren't coming is dumb. Anyone who bought KTPN because of the Heavy Intercessors, is a silly person.

The KT set is to get the board, the Objective Markers and the mandatory book. What hasn't been leaked, is the massive buffs to Space Marines and Necrons. To be clear, if you play Marines or Necrons in KT, you should already have Pariah Nexus by now. Not because of Heavy Intercessors. Because of the book. And the book isn't even...Worth it? 31 Datasheets, and 15 of them are Commanders which nobody uses. But also it's crazy to me that Space Marines would still have access to 16 different units, with two wounds each, etc.
...Necrons only have 12 Datasheets, by the way...Half of them are also Commanders.

Also, Death Denied was un-nerfed back to 2 CPs. Death Denied alone was responsible for breaking the entire game not two years ago. There's a reason it was nerfed to 3 CPs and made unusable. Un-nerfing Death Denied and buffing Space Marines to their 9th Ed. counterparts is a ****ing joke.

The sole purpose of KTPN, is to sell that book to Space Marine and Necron players - but especially to Space Marine players.

I think the Kill Team community would be a lot happier if the book was sold as a book.

The content of the book wouldn't change - that would still have everyone mad. But the way that the book is being sold makes people upset:
Do you actually want the rules for ultra-close confines?
Do you play Tyranids?
...**** you.

[Avaris]

Kill Team Pariah Nexus is undoubtedly one of the worst products GW has put out in recent years. Thankfully in my case it’s for Kill Team, which is pretty much the only GW game I have no interest in (I think the concept is good, but it feels too tightly tied to the base 40k rules, I would prefer a skirmish game that thought more outside the box. But it appeals to some people).

Being me, I’m pondering what could be changed in order to make it a reasonable value prospect. I think the things that would make it better would be:

• A second sprue of Flayed Ones. The set is woefully unbalanced, so having the Flayed Ones outnumber the Marines would give them an advantage that might improve that a little
• Better terrain. A big part of the appeal of Kill Team sets for me is the terrain, but this stuff is useless for most games. Something Necron themed, but more versitile, would be a much needed improvement

Any other thoughts?

[Cheesegear]

I think the concept is good, but it feels too tightly tied to the base 40k rules, I would prefer a skirmish game that thought more outside the box.

Please explain.

Being me, IÂ’m pondering what could be changed in order to make it a reasonable value prospect. I think the things that would make it better would be:

1. Lowering the price. Full stop.
2. Allowing people to buy the components they actually want, separately (Book, Board, Cards - in descending order of importance). Which, even if it doesn't lower the price significantly, it does allow for a lower barrier to entry, and allows people to buy things in stages, rather than all at once. Which is a benefit all on its own. Unless you're a publicly traded company that relies on quarterly and spike profits.

Anything other than those two things, and you're missing the point. Money is a barrier to entry. Putting more **** in the box, to inflate the price, is exactly the wrong direction GW should be going in.
GW needs to be finding ways to put less **** in boxes to bring down prices. And when people buy less ****, that is when you sell them on the idea of smaller games.

But, GW share prices have rocketed to the moon during COVID, and they need to keep that up somehow.

A second sprue of Flayed Ones. The set is woefully unbalanced, so having the Flayed Ones outnumber the Marines would give them an advantage that might improve that a little

Why would I want to buy Necrons?
Why is an Expansion Factionised (?) at all!? There should be no models in the box. Full stop. Because Pariah Nexus shouldn't be tied to two Factions. That's what I meant when I said that even if you could buy the book separately, a huge chunk of the playerbase is going to be mad anyway, because a huge chunk of the playerbase actually doesn't play Space Marines or Necrons.

Better terrain. A big part of the appeal of Kill Team sets for me is the terrain

What for? It's Arena with a new hat. Terrain is meaningless. Terrain shouldn't be in the box at all.
If you want to sell a Killzone, sell it separately so that people who don't want it, don't have to buy it.

Any other thoughts?

I think you don't play Kill Team...

Thankfully in my case itÂ’s for Kill Team, which is pretty much the only GW game I have no interest in

[Avaris]

Well no, I don’t play Kill Team currently. But what a box like this should do is be an offering that encourages people who are Kill Team adjacent to think about giving it a go. I bought Indomitus, I have an active Space Marine army and a Necron army I have a planned colour scheme for. And more terrain is always useful. KTPN should be a tempting choice for me, regardless of if I play Kill Team, so that if I pick it up I might think ‘oh, I have these KT rules for Indomitus now, perhaps I should give it another shot’.

So this was a thought exercise in ‘how would such a box be made appealing, assuming it was at the same price point. You’re not wrong that putting the book out separately would be preferable for KT players, but there’s no way it would exist as a product without being bundled with at least some models. What this really should have been is a new, updated version of the KT rules, as I get the impression there isn’t much new it offers ruleswise?

As for a skirmish game thinking outside the box: I would love for Kill Team to really lean into being a good, small scale skirmish game. It does this a bit, with things like Alternating Activations, but it is much more tied to the base 40k rules than its AoS equivalent, Warcry, is to AoS. I’m not quite sure what the KT selling point as a skirmish game is, and feel it is hindered from what a game clearly intended to be a ramp into a 40k collection could be by following the 40k rules relatively closely.

[Squark]

Speaking of new Kill Team releases, a minor PSA is in order. The killzones that were just released are not re-releases of the old killzones of the same name. These releases do not contain the Mission, hazard, and tactics cards from the old versions (You need the Killzones book for that ), and they may have different contents from the old version- The Sector Mechanicus one swapped out the ferratonic furnace for more plasma conduits (which probably would be a decrease in value, except the plasma conduits are otherwise out of print, and are incredibly handy for Zone Mortalis games since they're designed to be magnetized in such a way they can hang from the walls).

[Cheesegear]

"Kill Team is a standalone game. One book and you're good to go."

Core Rules
Kill Team Annual
Elites
Killzones or Arena Pariah Nexus
Commanders

...Meet the new GW. Same as the old GW.

[Avaris]

"Kill Team is a standalone game. One book and you're good to go."

Core Rules
Kill Team Annual
Elites
Killzones or Arena Pariah Nexus
Commanders

...Meet the new GW. Same as the old GW.

“Company in selling expansion for game shocker.”

It IS standalone, more so than base 40k anyway. If you buy the core rulebook you can play a game, which isn’t true of 40k. The expansions are necessary if you want to play in a tournament I guess, though it is entirely possible to run without it.

Before going with your lazy ‘meet the new GW. same as the old GW’ line, what other option would you prefer? I can think of a few, but I know people would complain about any of them, or they are simply unrealistic:

• The rules can’t all be released at once, as they weren’t all written together, and GW won’t spend years developing a product without selling it. There is always more that can be added, they need to stop and release a product at some point.
• If they collect the rules into an omnibus or second edition, people who have already bought the existing books will complain (we saw this with Necromunda and the rules for gangs).
• It is unrealistic to expect GW to release the rules online for free, they are a profit making company, and Kill Team won’t drive sales in the way releasing the base 40k rules free would.
• Having killzone rules etc available only as cards in a limited boxset is fairly hateful IMO, as they quickly become difficult to get hold of.
• People tend to dislike ‘rules as a service’ models, where you pay a small fee each month in exchange for regular updates.

Are there other options I’m missing? What is your magical solution that will solve the problems inherent in the release of rules for a model based game? I’m not just asking about Kill Team here, it applies to 40k as well; yes, it sucks having to buy more books to use new things, but there will always be more stuff being added; GW isn’t going to lay off their miniatures design studio! Any solution you come up with has to meet the following criteria:

• It has to be able to cope with the continual release of new models that need rules
• It has to be able to account for updates to the rules that designers may come up with, including additional rules they may not have had the ability to add initially
• It has to be able to be paid for in some way. This can be abstract, e.g. ‘driving sales of models’
• It has to be useable in a variety of gaming contexts, from the kitchen table to large halls with poor internet

(Feel free to add other criteria: despite my perhaps abrasive opening, this is a genuine thought exercise, and I do want to know what better routes you can think of, if they exist and are realistic).

In respect of the thing that triggered this, I think having a book of Killzones available is a reasonable approach, and certainly better than either just having those rules available if you buy the scenery (as with previous killzones) or in an expensive boxset (as with Pariah Nexus). It was surprising they didn’t go ahead and release a new edition of Kill Team, but that would still have the problem of needing to buy new books, and I expect that is planned somewhere down the line.

[Cheesegear]

“Company in selling expansion for game shocker.”

- If you don't have this product, and your opponents do, you have fallen behind. Get FOMO'd kid.
- The product(s) you do have, are invalidated anyway, by this product. Often not literally. But certainly in spirit. "You can still use Tactical Marines." Pay 2 Play.

It IS standalone, more so than base 40k anyway. If you buy the core rulebook you can play a game, which isnÂ’t true of 40k.

The rules for Space Marines and Necrons, found in the Core Rules of Kill Team - and in the Annual - are now invalid.

The expansions are necessary if you want to play in a tournament I guess, though it is entirely possible to run without it.

No it isn't. Because future design choices, and updates/errata to the game, are based on the fact that those newer products are in the metagame.
If you're using the Core Rules only, and you had the post-Elites/Commanders Errata in your hands. Death Denied would be 3 CPs. Why? Why is Death Denied nerfed?

If you're using the Pariah Nexus rules...Death Denied is 2 CPs.
The rules are different.

Before going with your lazy ‘meet the new GW. same as the old GW’ line, what other option would you prefer?

I would prefer Errata be released for free. Not packaged in an Annual for money.
I would prefer that Expansions - that you do need - not be packaged with Faction-specific models, and Terrain.

The rules canÂ’t all be released at once, as they werenÂ’t all written together, and GW wonÂ’t spend years developing a product without selling it...

So GW knows, at time of release, that they are going to release more things down the line.
We know that.
They know that.
So why persist with the marketing that they know will be untrue or disingenuous, later?

You can not participate meaningfully in Underworlds by buying a single Warband.
It is not meaningful to say "You can still use Tactical Marines."

If they collect the rules into an omnibus or second edition, people who have already bought the existing books will complain (we saw this with Necromunda and the rules for gangs).

That's because the people who have already bought the existing books, wouldn't have bought the existing books at all, if they knew that there was going to be an omnibus, later.
See; Kill Team Annual.
See; Blackstone Fortress Annual.
See; WarCry Annual.

Why are rules in White Dwarves? Why not just wait until you have everything you want, and sell it as a collected book, that you end up selling anyway? Right. 'Cause you gotta nickel-and-dime people. And, on the way out, they'll quickly see that carrying an extra 4 White Dwarves, sucks. And you can get 'em a second time when they give in and buy the Annual. Genius.

It is unrealistic to expect GW to release the rules online for free...

Is it?
Checks DND Beyond ...Well, ****.

Having killzone rules etc available only as cards in a limited boxset is fairly hateful IMO, as they quickly become difficult to get hold of.

It does suck.
But, on the other hand, it's real easy to make your own. Definitely for cheaper than you could buy them for. You could even have them printed - on cards! - for less than you could buy them for.

Then again, what you really are complaining about is the insidiousness of limited releases. Which are already troublesome.

People tend to dislike ‘rules as a service’ models, where you pay a small fee each month in exchange for regular updates.

Looks at actual rules constantly being found in White Dwarf.
Well would you look at that?

Are there other options IÂ’m missing? What is your magical solution that will solve the problems inherent in the release of rules for a model based game?

Do what DND does. Every book is optional. Nothing is mandatory. Nothing is implicitly allowed.
That campaign book? It's not usuable unless you're playing in the campaign.
2-Wound Space Marines? They're not legal unless you're playing in the Pariah Nexus.

The reason nobody cared about Apocalypse Formations not being allowed in 7th Ed., is because they were told up front, that they weren't allowed. That meant that people didn't buy the Apocalypse books, and moved on with their lives. And people who did like Apocalypse, bought the War Zones, were happy with their purchase, and moved on with their lives.

Contrast to Specialist Detachments in 8th Ed., because disallowed for 9th Ed., when everything else, is.
Why? Why no Specialist Detachments? Why did I buy this product for you to take it away, when you took away nothing else?

But GW doesn't work the way DND does, and that's a bad thing.
Everything, has to be available to everyone, at all times. Even if it's broken - especially if it's broken? Because GW's aim to sell as many things to as many people as possible, even if such a purchase doesn't make a lick of sense:
"Hey man, do you play Tyranids? Wanna buy KTPN and get a ****-ton of Space Marine and Necron rules that you'll never, ever use? Hell Yeah."

yes, it sucks having to buy more books to use new things, but there will always be more stuff being added

- If you don't have this product, and your opponents do, you have fallen behind. Get FOMO'd kid.
- The product(s) you do have, are invalidated anyway, by this product. Often not literally. But certainly in spirit. "You can still use Tactical Marines." Pay 2 Play.

GW isnÂ’t going to lay off their miniatures design studio! Any solution you come up with has to meet the following criteria:

None of what you said was true. It has to meet one criteria; It just has to sell units.

The best way of doing that, is, of course:

- If you don't have this product, and your opponents do, you have fallen behind. Get FOMO'd kid.
- The product(s) you do have, are invalidated anyway, by this product. Often not literally. But certainly in spirit. "You can still use Tactical Marines." Pay 2 Play.

If you don't consume, you are a bad consumer. It's a very predatory business model GW has going on - the worst is Underworlds, but I've said my piece on that before.

but that would still have the problem of needing to buy new books, and I expect that is planned somewhere down the line.

Of course it is.
But scrapping an edition brings down the upfront cost to new players, and the upkeep cost to players who have fallen behind, down. Unless, of course, you say "Everything from the previous edition is still valid, so you still have to buy that if you want to play."

The longer an edition goes on, the worse it gets for new players, and players who have fallen behind.
Just remember your ABCs.
Always. Be. Consuming.
Don't ever fall behind, because if you do, the cost accumulates. Like Interest.

Ultimately, I guess, with the year of COVID, recession, and unstable employment, combined with last year's price hike, I'm not really willing to support GW like I did in 8th Ed.

Spoiler: Potentially unrelated

Show

I bought the Arveiaturace model for DND. I love Dragons. And she's one of the biggest Dragons ever made. She might be bigger than Ma'al Drakar - not that I've done the maths. But it's DND, so that'd be a 1" grid.

Spoiler: Intercessor for Scale

Show

In my currency, she costs $180, with a $20 discount from my local hobby store, making $160, because she was 'defective'...However that defect is exactly perfect for me, since I was just going to strip her anyway and repaint her myself. So don't worry about it. I'll take the $20 discount. Please and thank you.
(EDIT: Believe me, if it was up to me, I totally would paint her bright yellow, and she would be glorious. Unfortunately, DND doesn't have yellow Dragons, to my endless disappointment.)

Not too far down the road from my town's new hobby shop:
A Warhammer store will sell me a Repulsor for $165.
Or, they'll sell me the Indomitus half of Space Marines minus the Assault Intercessors and Outriders, for $230.

[hamishspence]

(EDIT: Believe me, if it was up to me, I totally would paint her bright yellow, and she would be glorious. Unfortunately, DND doesn't have yellow Dragons, to my endless disappointment.)

5e and 4e don't. 3e does, but theirs have no wings (Dragon Compendium). 2e has yellow dragons as well though, and theirs do have wings.

[Wraith]

3e also has Amber and Topaz dragons, which are more traditionally winged. Maybe one day they will make a return.

Although apparently yellow and gold are the same thing, if you're reading The Fall of Cadia and a bunch of [gold] Thunderhawks turn up carrying 'Fists.

[LeSwordfish]

3e also has Amber and Topaz dragons, which are more traditionally winged. Maybe one day they will make a return.

Although apparently yellow and gold are the same thing, if you're reading The Fall of Cadia and a bunch of [gold] Thunderhawks turn up carrying 'Fists.

A similar thing is a major spoiler for Penitent...

[Wraith]

Spoiler

Show

The King in "Yellow", eh? Despite all my bellyaching about how much of an unlikeable Mary Sue I find Bequin to be, I preordered that one, so hopefully I'll find out the full details in the next 2 or 3 days when I find time to start reading.

[Renegade Paladin]

Although apparently yellow and gold are the same thing, if you're reading The Fall of Cadia and a bunch of [gold] Thunderhawks turn up carrying 'Fists.

Heraldicly speaking, they are.

[Wraith]

Heraldicly speaking, they are.

In M2.400 you are correct, but in M42.100 there's a difference. Otherwise the different Chapters named Grey Knights, Silver Drakes, White Scars and Tigers Argent don't make any sense.

[9mm]

Also, Death Denied was un-nerfed back to 2 CPs. Death Denied alone was responsible for breaking the entire game not two years ago. There's a reason it was nerfed to 3 CPs and made unusable. Un-nerfing Death Denied and buffing Space Marines to their 9th Ed. counterparts is a ****ing joke.

Anyone who thought Death Denied was breaking kill team is at 2 CP is a dummy.

personally I banked on the book being a standalone purchase on ebay, and it was. GW be crazy if they thought I'd buy that box.

[Squark]

Anyone who thought Death Denied was breaking kill team is at 2 CP is a dummy.

personally I banked on the book being a standalone purchase on ebay, and it was. GW be crazy if they thought I'd buy that box.

It wasn't breaking the regular game, but it was overpowered (either that, or the many versions of it that only worked on a 4+ were underpowered), and it was game-breaking with Commanders when you could reduce the cost to 1 CP, and then spend 2 CP (total) to use it a second time in the turn with a Strategist Commander (Granted, commanders in general are broken in KT).

[Blackhawk748]

[*]It is unrealistic to expect GW to release the rules online for free, they are a profit making company, and Kill Team won’t drive sales in the way releasing the base 40k rules free would.

So is Paizo but the entirety of Pathfinder is available on their Wiki for free. And they, for quite a long time, ONLY sold rulebooks. Yes they have tile sets, flip mats, and minis now, but the Rule Books are their main moneymaker, and you can get all of them for free.

So, ya, I can kinda expect that, especially considering how expensive GW's minis are in comparison to everyone else's.

Spoiler: Potentially unrelated

Show

I bought the Arveiaturace model for DND. I love Dragons. And she's one of the biggest Dragons ever made. She might be bigger than Ma'al Drakar - not that I've done the maths. But it's DND, so that'd be a 1" grid.

Spoiler: Intercessor for Scale

Show

In my currency, she costs $180, with a $20 discount from my local hobby store, making $160, because she was 'defective'...However that defect is exactly perfect for me, since I was just going to strip her anyway and repaint her myself. So don't worry about it. I'll take the $20 discount. Please and thank you.
(EDIT: Believe me, if it was up to me, I totally would paint her bright yellow, and she would be glorious. Unfortunately, DND doesn't have yellow Dragons, to my endless disappointment.)

Not too far down the road from my town's new hobby shop:
A Warhammer store will sell me a Repulsor for $165.
Or, they'll sell me the Indomitus half of Space Marines minus the Assault Intercessors and Outriders, for $230.

I bought a Collossal Red Dragon mini for 3.5 for like 120 bucks like 4 years ago. I think it may be bigger, but Im unsure. And honestly, calling it a mini is disingenuous. Its a freaking statue.