Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

[Blackhawk748]

Look closer than. Dark Eldar got a lot, but it was all focused around melee. I don't think shooty Dark Eldar can work anymore.

And if you doubt this-

I know right?

Look at Flayed Skulls. The only Shooty Deldar left are spamming Poison, and frankly, I don't get it. Like, yes, Shooty Deldar has been a consistent strategy for them for years, right behind Covens usually, but Covens are pretty much untouched. Yes the best one got smacked a bit, but that was a slap on the wrist compared to what they did to Splinter weapon Deldar.

Like... it's baffling to me. If you were gonna gut anything it would have been Covens, cuz it's been the best for 2 Editions now, not Pirate Fleet Deldar.

[Forum Explorer]

Look at Flayed Skulls. The only Shooty Deldar left are spamming Poison, and frankly, I don't get it. Like, yes, Shooty Deldar has been a consistent strategy for them for years, right behind Covens usually, but Covens are pretty much untouched. Yes the best one got smacked a bit, but that was a slap on the wrist compared to what they did to Splinter weapon Deldar.

Like... it's baffling to me. If you were gonna gut anything it would have been Covens, cuz it's been the best for 2 Editions now, not Pirate Fleet Deldar.

Honestly, the buffs to Poisoned Tongue far outweigh the death of Flayed Skulls. +1 to wound is much much better than reroll 1s and ignore cover. But all told, ranged stuff got nearly nothing. Just Poisoned Tongue, a strat to wound vehicles with poison, and a few custom traits that also work on ranged stuff, like 6's to wound being AP -1 and 6's to hit counting as two hits. Oh, and the Trueborn, can't forget them, they are pretty amazing.

And the new Splinter Cannons are just worse Disintigrators, which just don't compete anymore. Dark Lances got better, but I suspect the best way to use them is to charge your Raider into something and shoot them in Melee.

[Blackhawk748]

Honestly, the buffs to Poisoned Tongue far outweigh the death of Flayed Skulls. +1 to wound is much much better than reroll 1s and ignore cover. But all told, ranged stuff got nearly nothing. Just Poisoned Tongue, a strat to wound vehicles with poison, and a few custom traits that also work on ranged stuff, like 6's to wound being AP -1 and 6's to hit counting as two hits. Oh, and the Trueborn, can't forget them, they are pretty amazing.

And the new Splinter Cannons are just worse Disintigrators, which just don't compete anymore. Dark Lances got better, but I suspect the best way to use them is to charge your Raider into something and shoot them in Melee.

It's not that the Buff to Posioned Tongue wasn't good enough, it's more that what they did to Flayed Skulls was unnecessary as it just eliminates a potential playstyle. Would Flayed Skulls keeping that have made it viable? Probably gonna go with no, but that just means ripping it out makes even less sense.

And then we go back to the Splinter Cannons we talked about awhile ago that we STILL can't figure out. There are some very, very odd choices in here.

[Forum Explorer]

It's not that the Buff to Posioned Tongue wasn't good enough, it's more that what they did to Flayed Skulls was unnecessary as it just eliminates a potential playstyle. Would Flayed Skulls keeping that have made it viable? Probably gonna go with no, but that just means ripping it out makes even less sense.

And then we go back to the Splinter Cannons we talked about awhile ago that we STILL can't figure out. There are some very, very odd choices in here.

Sure, I agree that was completely unnecessary.

But I do understand these odd choices. They made a very direct idea and plan to make Dark Eldar a melee army. That's the key thing. You are a melee army now. You can have shooting units, sure, but the everything rotates around melee. If you are running a pure shooty list, you are going against the design of the army. So shooting stayed about the same, or got slightly worse in the case of Splinter Cannons. And they completely killed the pure shooting Kabal. Because they want you to be building melee.

I mean when you look at the classic shooting units: Venoms or rather Splinter Cannons got worse. Ravangers got absolutely nothing, can no longer get any rerolls, and are overcosted by a lot. The planes are expensive, though they are still good at shooting at least. All the buffs to Kabalites help them in melee, not shooting, except for Trueborn. Only Scourages remained unchanged, and even they are now basically limited to Blasters now that Haywire Blasters are heavy weapons.

[LansXero]

Honestly, the buffs to Poisoned Tongue far outweigh the death of Flayed Skulls. +1 to wound is much much better than reroll 1s and ignore cover.

What good is wounding on 4s if you're just gonna ping off Marine armor anyways?

6's to wound being AP -1 and 6's to hit counting as two hits

.

So half an Imperial fist, and a way worse bladestorm. Hard pass.

Oh, and the Trueborn, can't forget them, they are pretty amazing.

Pretty amazing at having T3 and thus dying to bolter fire because 4+ is still paper thin in a world where marines get tons of AP for free.

Dark Lances got better

On what? On the raiders that can no longer be buffed? On the Kabalites that get -1 to hit with them when they walk?

Because they want you to be building melee.

with what? S4 AP-1 piles of attacks, attached to T3 bodies? Who cares if bladeguard goes last, they'll barely even lose a model and then they wreck them back.

[Blackhawk748]

Sure, I agree that was completely unnecessary.

But I do understand these odd choices. They made a very direct idea and plan to make Dark Eldar a melee army. That's the key thing. You are a melee army now. You can have shooting units, sure, but the everything rotates around melee. If you are running a pure shooty list, you are going against the design of the army. So shooting stayed about the same, or got slightly worse in the case of Splinter Cannons. And they completely killed the pure shooting Kabal. Because they want you to be building melee.

I mean when you look at the classic shooting units: Venoms or rather Splinter Cannons got worse. Ravangers got absolutely nothing, can no longer get any rerolls, and are overcosted by a lot. The planes are expensive, though they are still good at shooting at least. All the buffs to Kabalites help them in melee, not shooting, except for Trueborn. Only Scourages remained unchanged, and even they are now basically limited to Blasters now that Haywire Blasters are heavy weapons.

See, and I don't get that. Like, what is so hard to understand about being able to do both? Marines do both. Necrons had been able to do both in the past, Chaos Marines can do both (in theory), Eldar can do both so why can't Deldar? Why did they have to mess up Shooting as much as they did?

To sell more Wyches? Why would I go with them when I can just spam Covens units who are all around better and more durable, and if I was playing Deldar, would most likely have already. Hell, if anything, screwing up the vehicles makes Wyches worse, as they don't have the backup anymore.

[Forum Explorer]

What good is wounding on 4s if you're just gonna ping off Marine armor anyways?

.

So half an Imperial fist, and a way worse bladestorm. Hard pass.



Pretty amazing at having T3 and thus dying to bolter fire because 4+ is still paper thin in a world where marines get tons of AP for free.


On what? On the raiders that can no longer be buffed? On the Kabalites that get -1 to hit with them when they walk?

with what? S4 AP-1 piles of attacks, attached to T3 bodies? Who cares if bladeguard goes last, they'll barely even lose a model and then they wreck them back.

Wounding on 3+. That's the point where weight of fire will start to count.

More or less my thoughts, though I'm interested if they remembered to specify splinter weapons. Cause Blasters getting double shots on 6s is good.


Fire from a transport of course. As always. That should buy you some time.


Raiders. Because they do get buffed. Play Black Heart, and you get the reroll to hit, which is the only buff you got anyways. Though you might as well take Dark Lances on Kabalites. The -1 sucks sure, but the D3+3 damage is worth it, and it's not like you have any other heavy weapons worth taking.


Yeah, with some 41 attacks before you get into special weapons. Hitting on 3+, with reroll 1s. You should pretty reliably kill 2 Bladeguard maybe 3. The return swing is what? 13 Attacks? Hitting on 4+ (no reason to not pop Lighting Fast now that it is only 1 CP), and wounding on 3+? Or 2+ I suppose if they are blood angels. Lets say, 8 hits, 7 wounds which is pretty high end. That's only 3 dead Wychs in return. You are winning that trade so hard it isn't even funny. Or you can just add in a Succubus with 10 Attacks. Hitting on 2+, rerolling 1s, every 6 to wound is 2 Mortal wounds. That's likely a dead Bladeguard just from Mortal wounds. Than AP 2, 2 Damage.

Or you just cheese Hellions, do 10 mortal wounds in the movement phase and than still shoot and charge.

Point is, DE very much have the tools to mulch Bladeguard in CC. But considering how fast they are, they can just go hit pretty much whatever else they want, let the Bladeguard charge them, pop a fight last against them, and still put a bunch of hurt on the Bladeguard before they get to do anything. Bladeguard isn't very scary against them.

See, and I don't get that. Like, what is so hard to understand about being able to do both? Marines do both. Necrons had been able to do both in the past, Chaos Marines can do both (in theory), Eldar can do both so why can't Deldar? Why did they have to mess up Shooting as much as they did?

To sell more Wyches? Why would I go with them when I can just spam Covens units who are all around better and more durable, and if I was playing Deldar, would most likely have already. Hell, if anything, screwing up the vehicles makes Wyches worse, as they don't have the backup anymore.

Don't know. Probably to sell more Wyches though. I mean, everyone seems to already have a ton of Raiders and Warriors. Making those good means you get no sales.

[Cheesegear]

Rolling through the Drukhari Codex feels a lot like Necrons, I suppose:

If you play Necrons Drukhari, there are a number of buffs - some of them, even significant - that will make you go "Oooh..." Because, strictly speaking, the 9th Ed. Codex is an improvement over the old one - mostly because it's actually written with 9th Ed. in mind.
"If you already like Drukhari, this Codex is for you! Because you have no choice, plebe!"

If you don't currently play Necrons Drukhari, you might look at your current Faction's Codex, look to the Drukhari one, look to the Codex you already have, then back to the Drukhari one "...Huh. Is that all?" Then you seriously consider playing Drukhhari at all outside of exactly one Patrol of Wyches that you keep in Reinforcements. But of course you'd have to do that as Allies to a Craftworlds army...In that case you don't need Wyches because Wyches aren't Dire Avengers getting buffed by Asurmen.
"If you are thinking about liking Drukhari...Maybe reevaluate your life and play Sororitas or Genestealer Cults, instead. Either one of those Factions will do what you want to Drukhari to do, better."

[Wraith]

All I'm hearing is, "If you buy all the Drukhari models you like, just make sure that you use Aeldari rules and Counts As them until 10th edition". I mean it's not like you have a choice - good luck trying to preorder a new Codex.

Which is not the worst thing to ever come out of a new codex release, admittedly. At least it's not 4e Codex "Burn all your stuff and don't look back" Tyranids, right?

[AdmiralCheez]

Is the codex even out yet? How are people making these calls already without playing them? Advance review copies?

[LansXero]

Is the codex even out yet? How are people making these calls already without playing them? Advance review copies?

Scans of the full codex are already circulating on the internet. As for making calls, well statlines and abilities aren't some mysterious language, its just reading comprehension and math.

Then you seriously consider playing Drukhhari at all outside of exactly one Patrol of Wyches that you keep in Reinforcements. But of course you'd have to do that as Allies to a Craftworlds army... because you can't afford Harlequins. In that case you don't need Wyches because Wyches aren't Dire Avengers getting buffed by Asurmen Harlequins.
"If you are thinking about liking Drukhari...Maybe reevaluate your life and play Sororitas or Genestealer Cults Harlequins, instead. Either one of those Factions will do what you want to Drukhari to do, better."

Fixed that. Craftworlds is in the dumpster, someone getting results by spamming Dark Reapers doesn't change the fact that the codex is trash tier.

[Forum Explorer]

Rolling through the Drukhari Codex feels a lot like Necrons, I suppose:

If you play Necrons Drukhari, there are a number of buffs - some of them, even significant - that will make you go "Oooh..." Because, strictly speaking, the 9th Ed. Codex is an improvement over the old one - mostly because it's actually written with 9th Ed. in mind.
"If you already like Drukhari, this Codex is for you! Because you have no choice, plebe!"

If you don't currently play Necrons Drukhari, you might look at your current Faction's Codex, look to the Drukhari one, look to the Codex you already have, then back to the Drukhari one "...Huh. Is that all?" Then you seriously consider playing Drukhhari at all outside of exactly one Patrol of Wyches that you keep in Reinforcements. But of course you'd have to do that as Allies to a Craftworlds army...In that case you don't need Wyches because Wyches aren't Dire Avengers getting buffed by Asurmen.
"If you are thinking about liking Drukhari...Maybe reevaluate your life and play Sororitas or Genestealer Cults, instead. Either one of those Factions will do what you want to Drukhari to do, better."

Different question, why do you think Necrons are weak?

[AdmiralCheez]

Another different question, but what does a good codex look like? It seems like I never see discussion about what makes a codex good, just what's wrong with it.

[Silvaria]

I’m not sure how you can argue that Genestealer cults do what you want Drukhari to do, since my current understanding is that, in 9th, they mainly do one thing: lose

I’ve wanted Wyches to be good for ~3 editions now, and I’m very pumped about that, especially along with the incredible lethality of Incubi. I’m also super excited by the tools provided in the Cult of Strife supplement, which seem to make going heavy on Cult units quite solid.

It is a shame toolset the shootiest kabal, but given the sheer number of units with one special weapon, kept cheap and cheerful to choke the objectives with obsec bodies when their boats go down, Black Heart again seems a decent choice.

[LansXero]

I’m not sure how you can argue that Genestealer cults do what you want Drukhari to do, since my current understanding is that, in 9th, they mainly do one thing: lose

'piles of low S attacks' might work, except for all those Ls that you don't ignore because you're not a clown. So you get shot to pieces and then die, which is pretty much what GSC also do so I guess thats where the comparison matches?

'but they are in transports' somebody says, as if Drukhari transports didn't die to heavy bolters like nothing.

I’ve wanted Wyches to be good for ~3 editions now, and I’m very pumped about that, especially along with the incredible lethality of Incubi.

I think Incubi / Drazhar / Helions might be the best going forward with either a Coven brick or a Kabal can opener. But I still dont see it being all that great considering how the edition works.

[Hootman]

See, and I don't get that. [...] Why did they have to mess up Shooting as much as they did?

To sell more Wyches?

I'm pretty sure you nailed it yourself, B.H. There was just a...like, 6 page discussion on how we all have the general sense that GW is a an anti-average-consumer company that only does things that it can confirm will boost the bottom line, and "make players buy all new units for their army" is a pretty bulletproof method of doing that. If everyone who plays Deldar already has a bunch of Boats, Venoms, and Shooty Elves, it's time to make melee the "only" option, and get anyone who wants to Do The New Cool Thing to buy an all-melee army.

Another different question, but what does a good codex look like? It seems like I never see discussion about what makes a codex good, just what's wrong with it.

Technically you do, it's just always framed backwards, because the Internet is a flaming dump that communicates largely in screaming and violence. So, like Orks. Or governments.

Anyways, the baseline concept of What Is Good never really changes, so it's rarely brought up except in the context of complaining about things. The rules, as I understand them, go something like this:

1. Models that don't die are good models.
2. Models that destroy enemy models are good models.
3. Models that can complete Objectives more efficiently than others are good models
4. Models that do at least two of the above are GREAT models.
5. If your army has great models, buy a bunch of them. Why would you use anything else? Do you want to lose? No? Then bring as many great models as you can until the game forces you to stop. Then fill any remaining space in your list with good models.

The only thing that shifts as the game goes through editions and expansions is which models fit those criteria.

Currently, I believe the basic rules (or at least the rules that Tournaments use, which is all the Internet ever cares about) have made it so the only Win Conditions worth worrying about are "Kill All The Things". So, models that kill a lot or refuse to die a lot are the only things you need. Things like positioning and surprise-trickery are unnecessary, because the only thing you need to do to win is paint the hills red with the enemy before they do the same to you.

I think I've absorbed that right now it's generally thought that 3-Wound (or more) models are pretty durable (Read: Elite Space Marines like Terminators and Custodes), so use lots of those. And since everyone is going to be using 3W models, you want to bring weapons that KILL 3W models. Standard issue weapons aren't worth anything, because they don't remove your opponent's models fast enough. And since everyone's bringing super-durable models that can only be killed by specialist weaponry, vehicles with good firepower-per-point ratios are valid too, since they're basically just the same set of traits, scaled up.

There are ways to meta-bust, but those tools are also pretty specific, and shift with the actual meta. With regard to the above, if your opponent has spent all their points on a tanky 30-model army that's optimized to fight other tanky 30-model armies, and you roll up with a 200-model Ork list, a LOT of their special firepower is going to waste. Theoretically, this is great! You can just completely outlast them, or maybe even grind them down with sheer weight of less firepower. This used to be a usable strategy, and one I've used myself in the past, but I haven't played in over a year, so I'm not certain how possible it currently is. I know hordes have suffered a lot the past few years in the competitive circuit for, let's face it, completely obvious reasons: Time Limits. If the win conditions and time constraints of tournament play don't give you any way to actually pursue winning in ways besides throwing 60 shots at a unit to cause 1 or 2 wounds, and moving your whole army takes more than twice as long as your opponent takes for theirs, you're still going to lose, because you have no way to score points.

[Blackhawk748]

All I'm hearing is, "If you buy all the Drukhari models you like, just make sure that you use Aeldari rules and Counts As them until 10th edition". I mean it's not like you have a choice - good luck trying to preorder a new Codex.

Which is not the worst thing to ever come out of a new codex release, admittedly. At least it's not 4e Codex "Burn all your stuff and don't look back" Tyranids, right?

I started in 4th with Nids and I thought it was all right. Then again I liked Without Number and Genestealers, so maybe it was perfect for me.

The 5th ed Codex on the other hand-

I'm pretty sure you nailed it yourself, B.H. There was just a...like, 6 page discussion on how we all have the general sense that GW is a an anti-average-consumer company that only does things that it can confirm will boost the bottom line, and "make players buy all new units for their army" is a pretty bulletproof method of doing that. If everyone who plays Deldar already has a bunch of Boats, Venoms, and Shooty Elves, it's time to make melee the "only" option, and get anyone who wants to Do The New Cool Thing to buy an all-melee army.

The thing is... melee still would be the best. Like, Flayed Skulls having that bonus makes them a Pocket Patrol for your Wytch Wall or your Coven Monster Mash instead of... well, nothing. Like, that maybe could have sold some Kabal units to Coven players.

[Forum Explorer]

'piles of low S attacks' might work, except for all those Ls that you don't ignore because you're not a clown. So you get shot to pieces and then die, which is pretty much what GSC also do so I guess thats where the comparison matches?

'but they are in transports' somebody says, as if Drukhari transports didn't die to heavy bolters like nothing.



I think Incubi / Drazhar / Helions might be the best going forward with either a Coven brick or a Kabal can opener. But I still dont see it being all that great considering how the edition works.

So you may have missed this, but Raiders are now T6. They are actually decently resilient to Heavy Bolters now. I mean, as resilient as most other transports.

I agree that that looks to be a powerful build but I think you are really underestimating Wytchs. You call them cheap Harlequins as if that is somehow a bad thing. But they are an absolute pain to move without the proper tools once they get into melee. And with an 8 inch move, that can advance and charge, they should get into melee pretty easily. And you can't just fall back and shoot because they literally don't let you do that. The hope is for them to kill whatever they charged, and to not manage to pile into anything else. And even if they do end up in the open, whatever they killed is likely more expensive than the unit of Wytches, cause a fully upgraded unit of 10 is only 125 points.

Technically you do, it's just always framed backwards, because the Internet is a flaming dump that communicates largely in screaming and violence. So, like Orks. Or governments.

Anyways, the baseline concept of What Is Good never really changes, so it's rarely brought up except in the context of complaining about things. The rules, as I understand them, go something like this:

1. Models that don't die are good models.
2. Models that destroy enemy models are good models.
3. Models that can complete Objectives more efficiently than others are good models
4. Models that do at least two of the above are GREAT models.
5. If your army has great models, buy a bunch of them. Why would you use anything else? Do you want to lose? No? Then bring as many great models as you can until the game forces you to stop. Then fill any remaining space in your list with good models.

The only thing that shifts as the game goes through editions and expansions is which models fit those criteria.

Currently, I believe the basic rules (or at least the rules that Tournaments use, which is all the Internet ever cares about) have made it so the only Win Conditions worth worrying about are "Kill All The Things". So, models that kill a lot or refuse to die a lot are the only things you need. Things like positioning and surprise-trickery are unnecessary, because the only thing you need to do to win is paint the hills red with the enemy before they do the same to you.

I think I've absorbed that right now it's generally thought that 3-Wound (or more) models are pretty durable (Read: Elite Space Marines like Terminators and Custodes), so use lots of those. And since everyone is going to be using 3W models, you want to bring weapons that KILL 3W models. Standard issue weapons aren't worth anything, because they don't remove your opponent's models fast enough. And since everyone's bringing super-durable models that can only be killed by specialist weaponry, vehicles with good firepower-per-point ratios are valid too, since they're basically just the same set of traits, scaled up.

There are ways to meta-bust, but those tools are also pretty specific, and shift with the actual meta. With regard to the above, if your opponent has spent all their points on a tanky 30-model army that's optimized to fight other tanky 30-model armies, and you roll up with a 200-model Ork list, a LOT of their special firepower is going to waste. Theoretically, this is great! You can just completely outlast them, or maybe even grind them down with sheer weight of less firepower. This used to be a usable strategy, and one I've used myself in the past, but I haven't played in over a year, so I'm not certain how possible it currently is. I know hordes have suffered a lot the past few years in the competitive circuit for, let's face it, completely obvious reasons: Time Limits. If the win conditions and time constraints of tournament play don't give you any way to actually pursue winning in ways besides throwing 60 shots at a unit to cause 1 or 2 wounds, and moving your whole army takes more than twice as long as your opponent takes for theirs, you're still going to lose, because you have no way to score points.

The big thing you missed is that you don't need to actually kill your opponent. The best Secondaries typically don't rely on killing your opponent, and neither do the Primary.

It's why Oath of Moment is so broken. For just standing in the middle (where there is often an objective anyways), and not Falling back? That's 3 points a turn right there. Then if you do kill any Characters, Monsters, or Vehicles, that's a free point on top. It takes almost no effort to score 15 points. That's one of the most gamebreaking things right now, Space Marines get one of the easiest Secondaries to score and other armies have not. Necrons didn't, Dark Eldar didn't, and Death Guard didn't. The other game breaking thing is the Chief Apothecary for a different reason.

But really, what I'm hearing to balance the game is to disallow Codex specific secondaries, and to fix the Chief Apothecary, though there is some debate in what the latter means. Though it looks like Dark Angel Terminators are going to be on the list of things to fix as well.

[LansXero]

T6 might make them more durable indeed, if there were anything worth shooting anti-tank at other than the huge raised-base models. Although with obscuring and whatnot. But then, can raiders move and disembark or can wyches disembark and charge? Dunno.

I also forgot about breachable on ruins. which I dont how many people use so maybe the wyches do get somewhere they can use their piles of attacks on. Who knows. Lets hope the newest Xenos codex can maybe shake things up a bit, but from my experience what Im seeing doesnt seem like good enough to be a real melee contender. Hopefully we'll see in a few tournaments.

[Forum Explorer]

T6 might make them more durable indeed, if there were anything worth shooting anti-tank at other than the huge raised-base models. Although with obscuring and whatnot. But then, can raiders move and disembark or can wyches disembark and charge? Dunno.

I also forgot about breachable on ruins. which I dont how many people use so maybe the wyches do get somewhere they can use their piles of attacks on. Who knows. Lets hope the newest Xenos codex can maybe shake things up a bit, but from my experience what Im seeing doesnt seem like good enough to be a real melee contender. Hopefully we'll see in a few tournaments.

The one I'm really wondering about is the Voidraven Bomber. 200 Points, so it's kinda costy. And you can't really hide it since it is an aircraft. But the ability to just pick a point and have everything in 6 inches take D6 mortal wounds is absolutely devastating to what I'm seeing typically played by Space Marines.

But the odds of it surviving turn 1 seems to be nearly 0. It's very much a go first or it's useless model.

[Cheesegear]

Is the codex even out yet? How are people making these calls already without playing them? Advance review copies?

The Codex is out. You just can't buy it.

Also, 'playtesting' is a myth. Almost anyone who plays the game, should, more or less understand how the game is played, and what currently does - and doesn't - work, and, more importantly, understand why it works.

A very good example is: Terminators-with-Storm Shields + (Chief) Apothecary.
Knowing how this particular unit works, is incredibly important to understanding why Space Marines are where they're at - especially in the casual meta. When you can understand how/why this units works the way it does, and how different Chapter Tactics and Stratagems interact with the unit, you very quickly see a particular combo forming, and how it interacts interally with the rest of the Codex. That is, you understand Terminators, in regards to the context of the Space Marine Codex.

When you understand the Space Marine Codex, and you understand the game, you can put 2+2 together, and get 4 nearly everytime.
Sometimes you might get [1.75 + 1.76 = 4], you're on the right track, and in certain circumstances, you're actually correct, even though you're not.

How does T3 interact in the current game, as it is played?
How do Wyches stack up against the most-durable units in the game, that currently dominate the meta? In Melee?
What happens inside a Codex - or doesn't happen - when a unit isn't Core?

Another good example is how Turn Bonuses work:
The most important one, is the one that happens on Turn 1.
The one that happens on Turn 2, is equally as important, because that's when you can start bringing in Reinforcements.
Anything that happens on or after Turn 3, is nearly irrelevant compared to anything that happens in the previous 2 turns, because the previous two turns actually define how Turn 3 onwards, is played.

We know this. Because we know how the game is played. Because of how the game is played, we know how useful Power From Pain, is. The Codex isn't even 'out'. Nobody has playtested. But we already know.

We also know that our opponents aren't straw-filled potatoes, and quite often put their high-value Melee units into Reinforcements where they get to decide who charges what.
We also know that because of how the game is played, the Turn 1 Shooting phase, is arguably the single most important phase in the game. If an army either:
- Can't do a Turn 1 Shooting phase, or
- Can't withstand a Turn 1 Shooting phase;
People should start getting a bit nervous.

Different question, why do you think Necrons are weak?

Didn't say that. Necrons aren't weak. Especially in the sub-1000 Points meta.

Necrons are quite solidly a mid-tier Codex. Which is a clear upgrade from their 8th Ed. literal-worst-army-in-the-game ranking. But not as strong as the strongest Factions in the game. If you already played Necrons during 8th Ed.; "**** yeah, 9th Ed.!" If you didn't play Necrons during 8th Ed., and are looking to start them brand-new in 9th Ed., yeah. Sure. It's a Faction that exists that isn't terrible. You could play something else though. Hell, in most of the ways to start a Necron army, you also get parts to start a Space Marine army...Try that.

Another different question, but what does a good codex look like? It seems like I never see discussion about what makes a codex good, just what's wrong with it.

Hootman did a really good job of explaining the basics.

Currently, there are two 'halves' to the game:
- You need to be able to survive through your opponent's turn (See; Turn 1 Shooting Phases)
- You need to do things on your turn, for whatever given value, that has.
- (Also there's 10 Points for having a painted army, but we'll ignore that)

Which creates the meta, and counter-meta. The most obvious way to win games, is to destroy your opponent's models:
- You obviously cancel out your opponent's ability to survive during your turn - that's the point - and,
- By destroying their models, you lower their chances of doing things on their turn, because they have less on the board.

Which, unfortunately, is what the meta revolves around; Resilience. Do you have it? Killing things, is a lot less important than not being killed, because there are ways to score without removing your opponents models. But, there aren't ways to score without having your models on the board.

Basically, if your models get destroyed, you can't win. No matter what your Secondaries are.

Currently, I believe the basic rules (or at least the rules that Tournaments use, which is all the Internet ever cares about)

Because it's turtles all the way down, that's why. If something is good competitively, it's competitive in your casual meta, too. There's nothing at all stopping 'regular' people, using competitive units, Objectives, Stratagems and tactics. That's the common ground. The Rulebook, is The Rulebook. I think that's the major hurdle that a lot of people can't or wont get around. We're all actually playing the exact same game, all of us playing with the exact same ruleset.
There's no such thing as 'tournament rules', because there is simply just, 'the rules'.

...the only Win Conditions worth worrying about are "Kill All The Things".

No...Noooo...Hard disagree. Everyone - except you? - knows that Deploy Scramblers is the best (read; most reliable) Secondary in the game, and has nothing to do with Kill All the Things.

I think the argument you want to make - as I made - is that Kill All the Things, defines which win conditions are good, and which are bad.

The most important tactic in the game is "Just Don't Die."

because the only thing you need to do to win is paint the hills red with the enemy before they do the same to you.

Hence why people really, really, really need to learn how Reinforcements works, and maybe just once factor in that their opponents aren't stupid.
"Haha. I'll just kill that on Turn 1."
No. No you wont. In fact, it will be impossible to destroy my unit - let alone deal Damage to it - on Turn 1.

I think I've absorbed that right now it's generally thought that 3-Wound (or more) models are pretty durable (Read: Elite Space Marines like Terminators and Custodes), so use lots of those. And since everyone is going to be using 3W models, you want to bring weapons that KILL 3W models. Standard issue weapons aren't worth anything, because they don't remove your opponent's models fast enough. And since everyone's bringing super-durable models that can only be killed by specialist weaponry, vehicles with good firepower-per-point ratios are valid too, since they're basically just the same set of traits, scaled up.

The fact that you wrote this, makes everything you wrote before seem...Bizarre.
You know this. But you still said all that other stuff?

There are ways to meta-bust, but those tools are also pretty specific, and shift with the actual meta.

I think that's why people are only talking about Wyches are nothing else. Because they're the only unit that's actually worth anything.
And I think that's also making people sad, as they realise that even before release, Drukhari are being pushed into a mono-build. The only difference being is that it's a different mono-build to 8th Ed.'s Haemonculus Engines.

With regard to the above, if your opponent has spent all their points on a tanky 30-model army that's optimized to fight other tanky 30-model armies, and you roll up with a 200-model Ork list, a LOT of their special firepower is going to waste.

Then that's a bad 30-model army.
The only 30-model army I can think of would be a Space Marine army that runs a lot of Aggressors and Repulsors, which wouldn't really be too bothered by a 150-model Ork army.

But they are an absolute pain to move without the proper tools once they get into melee. And with an 8 inch move, that can advance and charge, they should get into melee pretty easily. And you can't just fall back and shoot because they literally don't let you do that. The hope is for them to kill whatever they charged, and to not manage to pile into anything else. And even if they do end up in the open, whatever they killed is likely more expensive than the unit of Wytches, cause a fully upgraded unit of 10 is only 125 points.

The main thing is, when you have a one-note Codex, it's really easy to build for and plan against, and that's a problem. "Is Wyches all you got? Okay then. I already know your game plan and will deploy accordingly."

---

It's also very disappointing that 9th Ed.'s way of 'Making Melee Great Again', is to make Shooting, ****.

[Silvaria]

I think Covens still have some play, if only because Prophets of Flesh venoms are acceptable transports for small Kabalite units, and there’s probably a place for some superbuffed grotesques, just because they have a different defensive profile and strategy from Wych squads. All in all, I think Drukhari will play their usual game fairly well, because suffocating board control and mobility are both good in 9th.

And although wyches/hellions/incubi are what I expect to see at tournaments, I think I could, if I wanted, go hard on anything and have a decent time. And every faction is going to have a *best* even and especially Marines. But then I also play Harlequins, so maybe I’m the wrong person to ask about lack of unit/build choice

Lastly, I don’t know that I agree that Shooting is bad (Drukhari shooting, sure.) I think the big change is that all-shooting, and immobile shooting, is less viable than all-melee, but given that the opponent’s shooting phase is the least fun phase of the game, I don’t feel bad about it.

[Cheesegear]

All in all, I think Drukhari will play their usual game fairly well, because suffocating board control and mobility are both good in 9th.

You don't have board control if you don't have resilience. Your opponent shoots you, and you die. That's not board control, that's just mobility.
Linebreaker is a great Secondary...If you can Score it more than once. Which you can't. Because you're T3 and dead.

Everything goes back to resilience. Which Drukhari just don't have. At least, Wyches don't.

And although wyches/hellions/incubi are what I expect to see at tournaments

I expect them to make it to the bottom of the Top 8, sure.

I think I could, if I wanted, go hard on anything and have a decent time.

Anyone can do that. It's called being casual. If you want to buy the book, nothing anyone says about 'effectiveness' or 'mediocrity' is going to affect your purchase, because you've already decided how you want to have fun with the book. So just...Do that.

But then I also play Harlequins, so maybe IÂ’m the wrong person to ask about lack of unit/build choice

That's the difference between Codecies with no choices, and Codecies with a lot of false choices.
Drukhari gives the impression that you can play Kabals, Cults and Covens. However, when it comes to the actual consumer, all's anyone is talking about, is Wych Cults. Cults are the only thing worth playing 'cause they're the only thing that's actually good. This is a bad sign, and means that the Codex is full of a lot of false choices and the marketing - as always - is disingenuous, because we can't let Covens players from 8th Ed. keep their old army, and we definitely aren't going back to Kabals-in-Venoms from 5th-7th. It's Wyches' turn.

If you're playing Harlequins, you have Troupes. The Codex doesn't pretend otherwise. When you read through the Harlequin Codex, you are told point blank, that the only choice you have, is Troupes. You aren't misdirected and flooded with a whole lot of bad choices you can be tricked into making.

Another great example - as always - is Space Marines, and the infamous "You can still use Tactical Marines." that's a false choice, and everyone who's actually read the Codex, knows it. There is nothing in the book that encourages you to use Tactical Marines. And there are several things - some, quite good - that encourage you to run Intercessors. To the point where if you are choosing to run Tactical Marines, you are choosing to be bad. Not sure why would do that. But GW does give you that false choice to make.

Lastly, I donÂ’t know that I agree that Shooting is bad (Drukhari shooting, sure.)

That's what I meant.

[Forum Explorer]

That's the difference between Codecies with no choices, and Codecies with a lot of false choices.
Drukhari gives the impression that you can play Kabals, Cults and Covens. However, when it comes to the actual consumer, all's anyone is talking about, is Wych Cults. Cults are the only thing worth playing 'cause they're the only thing that's actually good. This is a bad sign, and means that the Codex is full of a lot of false choices and the marketing - as always - is disingenuous, because we can't let Covens players from 8th Ed. keep their old army, and we definitely aren't going back to Kabals-in-Venoms from 5th-7th. It's Wyches' turn.

If you're playing Harlequins, you have Troupes. The Codex doesn't pretend otherwise. When you read through the Harlequin Codex, you are told point blank, that the only choice you have, is Troupes. You aren't misdirected and flooded with a whole lot of bad choices you can be tricked into making.

Another great example - as always - is Space Marines, and the infamous "You can still use Tactical Marines." that's a false choice, and everyone who's actually read the Codex, knows it. There is nothing in the book that encourages you to use Tactical Marines. And there are several things - some, quite good - that encourage you to run Intercessors. To the point where if you are choosing to run Tactical Marines, you are choosing to be bad. Not sure why would do that. But GW does give you that false choice to make.

Now that's not entirely true. People are only talking about Wytchs because A) their rules got leaked last and B) They actually received substantial buffs that actually made them better at what you want Wytchs to do, IE, be a melee unit.

Kabal units are mostly the losers of the Codex, kinda. The base Warriors are fine. They got a 4+ save, their points are very reasonable, and blasters are still good on them. But their other unit, Ravangers, got literally nothing and lost their source of rerolls. And that's it. Sure Archons got a small buff, and the Court exists, but the meat and bones of Kabal detachments is Warriors and Ravangers, because there are actually only 4 Kabal units in the book; Warriors, Ravangers, the Court, and Archons. Of them, Warriors got a bit more durability but didn't really get better at their job (shooting), Ravangers got worse, nobody cares about the Court, and if the Kabal sucks, who cares about the Archon (because in a Real Space Raid, his aura works on everyone, so yes, the Archon matter than)

Wytch cult? Pretty much everything got better. Wytchs got a lot of buffs, Hellions got a lot of buffs, Reavers got some buffs. Succubi got some really good buffs. Only ones who missed out were the beast units, and those are technically Wytch cult anyways.

Homunculus Coven got a nerf around the board in losing their 4++. But their durability is still really good, as you can give them all -1 damage, and a 5+ FnP. Talos didn't change but it's gun options did get better. Chronos got some buffs in both damage and its aura. Grotesques are still blenders. Wracks technically stayed the same, but their gun options got worse. But they also went down in points. A T5 (with the Homunculus aura) unit with a 5+ FnP, for only 8 points a model? That's pretty cheap.

The Neutral stuff (or Blades for Hire as they call it) got the biggest buffs. Incubi are just absolute murder machines in the current meta. The only thing they are bad at killing is big vehicles and knights which aren't really in the meta right now. Particularly when backed up by Drazhar who got absolutely nuts. Scourges dropped 35 points a unit, and their invulnerable save went to a 5++ and otherwise stayed basically the same. Other than Haywire Blasters don't work as well for them anymore. But Blasters are just fine. Mandrakes I expect to see in every army, just because they are cheap, and really really good at Scramblers. And Raiders got a significant buff in Dark Lances being good, Power from Pain working on vehicles, and an extra carrying capacity. The Razorwing is about the same, and the Voidraven is now a risky gamble because it can do soooo much damage, but is also super fragile. Venoms basically got nerfed hard with the changes to the Splinter Cannon. Kinda. It's not like the Splinter Cannon still can't do work, but everyone seems to agree that it isn't worth the same points as a Raider with Dark Lance.


So in Summary:

Wytches got buffs, and went from bad to good, pretty much across the board. Homunculus Covens are still good, and really play basically the same. Kabal units either caught nerfs or got very little when they really needed some love. Incubi got buffed a lot, but we already knew that from like freaking November. So the most competitive Drukari players already had Homunculus Coven and Kabal stuff. It's the Wytch Cult being good that's new, so that's what they are talking about.

[Cheesegear]

Now that's not entirely true. People are only talking about Wychs because...

Interesting to see what you wrote, but the first sentence of each sums everything up.

Kabal units are mostly the losers of the Codex...
[...]
Wytch cult? Pretty much everything got better...
[...]
Homunculus Coven got a nerf around the board...

These three tidbits are all you needed to say. I don't know if that's what you meant to say. But this is what speaks to me, the loudest (probably because it confirms what I already think).

[Forum Explorer]

These three tidbits are all you needed to say. I don't know if that's what you meant to say. But this is what speaks to me, the loudest.

You cut off a third of the last sentence. The context around Homunculus Covens is important.

Because I haven't actually done the math on it, but I think a 6++ with a 5+ FnP and -1 Damage might actually be better for Talos, Chronos, and Grotesques.

Like for AP 0 to AP -2, they actually got more durable, mostly cause Talos and Chronos actually have 3+ armor saves. AP -3, the 4++ would be better than a 5+ FnP, but the damage -1 starts to really pay off here, since multi damage becomes more common at high APs so I suspect they are still more durable. At meltas and D6 or better damage weapons, I really don't know. That's where I haven't actually sat it down to calculate which is better, and it's complicated enough I can't just eye ball it.

Fun stuff, you can actually put the -1 damage on all your Raiders if you want. So long as you can fit it in the Homunculus Coven detachment. Because you can put units in different faction's transports.

[Silvaria]

Anyone can do that. It's called being casual. If you want to buy the book, nothing anyone says about 'effectiveness' or 'mediocrity' is going to affect your purchase, because you've already decided how you want to have fun with the book. So just...Do that.

I’m not talking about “have a good time” as in skipping through a field of lilies not caring about wins or losses. I mean that I think you could pull a decent win rate playing mainly covens, and there’s probably a way to skew that you can make it work for poison spam + blades for hire. Now, I’ll grant you’re not beating top Marine lists like that, probably, but that’s an issue with Space Marines being too good, rather than this book being bad. But look, Space Marines have been so oppressive for so long now that it’s just a fact of life.

However, I think that to the extent that Drukhari will be able to fight Marines, (and I expect a bottom-of-top three finish once, followed by top 5 as the lists rejigger) it’ll be because they can do the same things Harlequins can to exploit the few weaknesses in how Space Marine armies are constructed and play.

Wyches and Incubi will be a big part of that, sure, especially with their high volume, high AP , the strats to ignore terrain/models, give themselves a 4++ all the time, and dump mortal wounds on precious Apothecaries, and being able to mobilize to pick off the units Marines take out of your bubble fortress to spread across the field and hold objectives.

But I suspect there’s also scope for wracks and Raiders that are durable, not in an absolute sense, but relative to their value. I think the actual strength of Drukhari comes from their price: very few units are more than 100 points or so, and given how most Marine lists I’ve seen run very few, but powerful units, there’s probably something there. Probably a bit like that one Ynnari list that performed well recently, or how Nanavati ran his Soaring Spite Harlequins: movement jank and a denial game

[LansXero]

that’s an issue with Space Marines being too good, rather than this book being bad.

Wrong. What exists is what exists, not some theoretical balanced pure codex. Best codex on top worst codex on bottoom everything halfway and below = trash, everything not near the top = mediocre. So with the upper end being Marines/9 Drukhari/9 is looking mediocre at best.

However, I think that to the extent that Drukhari will be able to fight Marines, (..) it’ll be because they can do the same things Harlequins can

Its gonna be volume vs quality, but I really don't see it happening. The DE game plan is so obvious once you skim their list, they don't have those many tricks in their toolset. What I do think can happen is a bit of a metashift towards / around units that dont get caught off guard so easily, but then I dont know what works well against both DW Termies / DG Termies and DE at the same time.

I honestly expect AdMech and its new book to make more of an splash in the meta than DE. It'll be forgotten, like Necrons are, providing the mediocre padding to make Imperium factions shine.

Probably a bit like that one Ynnari list that performed well recently

Which no longer works and is illegal.

[Blackhawk748]

These three tidbits are all you needed to say. I don't know if that's what you meant to say. But this is what speaks to me, the loudest (probably because it confirms what I already think).

While I agree Covens caught a nerf, I don't think it's enough to take them out of the "good stuff" part of the Codex. Wracks are cheap and everything is still durable and blendery so they should still work fine. Not sure if going all in on Ultra Offence with Wytches is better or not, but its certainly still viable.

Kabals are just kinda hosed those.

[Silvaria]

Wrong. What exists is what exists, not some theoretical balanced pure codex. Best codex on top worst codex on bottoom everything halfway and below = trash, everything not near the top = mediocre. So with the upper end being Marines/9 Drukhari/9 is looking mediocre at best.

Okay? I’m not sure what I said that deserved quite that level of acrimony. I’m fully aware of what exists, but I’m equally aware that I have no power to change it. I just don’t really care if it does. As a Xenos player, my functional options relevant to my 40k gaming are: play against marines and try to find workarounds, refuse games against lists where the game would be an exercise in futility, suffer through hours of my own destruction, or not play at all. Space Marines have occupied a privileged position for most of the time I’ve been playing, so I just work around them in an out-of-game sense so that their presence doesn’t diminish my enjoyment