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  1. - Top - End - #121
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Razgriez View Post
    Ok, so... I now have to completely rebuild the core of my Ultramarines.

    Thanks GW Marketing department. Couldn't play the long game anymore, and gently coax us long-time players to adding Primaris units over time, could you? Nope, just had to hard nerf classic models to the point of being unusable, even in friendly casual games. The Troop choices no less. That's just absurdly greedy. And that's already after Codex 8.2 and Supplements last year.

    This is where I'm torn between restarting my Marines 90% from scratch (and deciding if I stick with the Ultramarines since I first started playing, or go another route), or go ahead, build T'au. Yes yes I know, "They're sub-50% in Tourney play!", "They have no Fight/Psychic phase!". Though I would have the advantage of starting from scratch with T'au, and tailoring them to 9ths more Mobile, Objective focused requirements (More Pulse Blasters and Carbines perhaps?)

    What can I do with my old Tactical Marines at this point? Aside from Kill-Team games (and even then you just bring the ones with equipment along), the only other thing I can think of is sell/trade to a 30k player that doesn't mind Early 3rd Edition or latter Marines, or Convert into Sternguard by adding battle bling.

    And I want to know what's viable options/suggestions here for rebuilding before I even bother purchasing a 9th Edition codex.

    I do have someone willing to sell/trade me the Vanguard Primaris from a Shadowspear box he never built, so at least I can begin shaping up that huge void now left in my Troop choices. I've been slow to get back into updating and rebuilding my old army and don't have enough Primaris Troops yet otherwise.

    Are Combat Squads (Split Full squads in half) still a thing?

    Side note, given changes to Icarus weapons I'm hearing, viability of Sgt. Chronus (Ultramarines) in a Stalker tank? Or keep him in a Whirlwind/Vindicator/Predator still?
    Tactical Marines are basically useless right now. It sucks, GW has basically mandated that Tactical Marines and a bunch of other 'Firstborn' units be replaced by Primaris.

    Mind you, Space Marines are currently so much more powerful than most other factions you can get away with using Tactical Marines anyways, unless you are playing in a very competitive meta. A minimum amount of Tactical Marines to hold objectives and take actions, and then fill up the rest of the list with Terminators, Centurions, and what not.

    Combat squads however, are no longer a thing. Since the min squad size is 5, and you get the sergeant for free, why not just take 2 5 man squads instead of 1 ten man and than breaking it apart? The net result is you get an extra sergeant at no additional cost.

    Eventually everyone else will likely catch up as their own codexes come out, but the next xenos faction release isn't until February at the earliest. So you've got time to start picking up Primaris if you want to stay competitive, or switch to Tau if you are tired about being jerked around by GW.
    Last edited by Forum Explorer; 2020-10-25 at 02:36 PM.
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  2. - Top - End - #122
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Writing has been on the wall for two years though. As for what to do with them, stick weapon bits on top? Or maybe hope they are useable in deathwatch?

  3. - Top - End - #123
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Razgriez View Post
    Thanks GW Marketing department. Couldn't play the long game anymore, and gently coax us long-time players to adding Primaris units over time, could you? Nope...
    What are you talking about? We've been buying Primaris Marines since they came good way, way back in CA'17. Since Know No Fear.
    As Lans said, the writing has been on the wall for two three years (since around this time, in 2017). As far as I'm concerned, we're in the long game, and almost at the end.
    We're so close to the point of GW coming out and saying "Nobody even buys Tactical Marines anymore, we're Legends'ing them..." and then giving whales Space Marine players the third Codex in three years, at the bottom of 2021, that no longer has Tactical Marines in it.

    Or releasing a Codex without Firstborn, but then also a 'Firstborn Supplement' that GW makes people buy, where almost everything in it is bad.

    What can I do with my old Tactical Marines at this point?
    Strip 'em, repaint them as Veterans. Sure, they wont have the wargear that makes them good, but if you've got the Bodyguard rule, you're good enough...At least, better than Tactical Marines. Another option is to wait for the Deathwatch Supplement, and see what happens with Deathwatch Veterans - I hope they don't suck, but you never know.

    And I want to know what's viable options/suggestions here for rebuilding before I even bother purchasing a 9th Edition codex.
    Here's the thing:
    Tactical Marines are viable, against anything that isn't other Space Marines. If your meta has been buying up Know No Fear boxes for the last two years (they should have been), if your local White Scars, Raven Guard, Blood Angels, Black Templars and Space Wolves (jk, no-one plays Space Wolves) have been buying up Elite Editions like they're candy (they should be), then you're in trouble.

    If you're in a Marine meta, Tactical Marines are useless, sure.

    If you're in a meta where people still probably remember 8th Ed., Tactical Marines are...Fine...I suppose.

    Are Combat Squads (Split Full squads in half) still a thing?
    Combat Squads haven't been a thing since Sergeants became free (6th Ed.?).

    viability of Sgt. Chronus (Ultramarines) in a Stalker tank? Or keep him in a Whirlwind/Vindicator/Predator still?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Tactical Marines are basically useless right now. It sucks, GW has basically mandated that Tactical Marines and a bunch of other 'Firstborn' units be replaced by Primaris.
    Primaris were originally supposed to be the line refresh for all of space marines. However the line was already a bloated mess, so GW decided that adding to the bloat was was more "manageable".

    Once GW decides how they want the Gravis line to replace Devestators is when I suspect we'll see the First born purge.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by 9mm View Post
    Primaris were originally supposed to be the line refresh for all of space marines. However the line was already a bloated mess, so GW decided that adding to the bloat was was more "manageable".

    Once GW decides how they want the Gravis line to replace Devestators is when I suspect we'll see the First born purge.
    That sounds like some coding projects I've worked on. Going in and upgrading it properly is too hard. Much easier to slap a new subroutine on top of everything, nevermind it bloats the code and makes fixing bugs harder. And that's where the nightmares begin.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by 9mm View Post
    Once GW decides how they want the Gravis line to replace Devestators Grav-Cannons is when I suspect we'll see the First born purge.
    FTFY. The biggest issue Primaris Marines face, is currently Melee. There are still no unit-wide customisable units, yet. Bladeguard are very, very good, yes. But it's not the same as Power Fists/Thunder Hammers.

    That said; We've already been purging.

    In 8e, Primaris units constantly received buffs, whilst Firstborn only received nerfs. The lone exception is Centurions.

    In 9e, GW couldn't justify hard-nerfing them, so instead gave them an extra Wound, and stealth-nerfed them by increasing their points to not-quite-but-almost match their Primaris counterparts, but also soft-nerfed them by removing all of their Stratagems that applied to them that made any good Firstborn unit, work (e.g; Masterful Marksmanship, and Sternguard).

    With Heavy Intercessors and Eradicators coming out, big Ds swinging, I can barely justify Firstborn units anymore, except for the Melee ones, and Grav-Cannons.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    With Heavy Intercessors and Eradicators coming out, big Ds swinging, I can barely justify Firstborn units anymore, except for the Melee ones, and Grav-Cannons.
    Actually that raises a question I've been meaning to ask. What do you think is better, assault terminators or shooting terminators now that Storm Shields are a 1+/4++?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

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    ... I legitimately thought they'd posted the wrong image at first. But no, the "brand new" unit is just a sprue of rievers with the upgrade sprue thrown in >.>
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Actually that raises a question I've been meaning to ask. What do you think is better, assault terminators or shooting terminators now that Storm Shields are a 1+/4++?
    Since 4th Ed., I've just never been a fan of Shootynators. The introduction of Sternguard, and Devastators not being terrible, and don't even get me started on the Rise of Bikers. Shootynators are just Storm Bolters, and if you want Storm Bolters, get them anywhere else.

    Talking to my friend just now about how to build Sororitas armies, and I typed:
    Oh lol, it's almost like Sororitas are just Firstborn Marines that aren't terrible.

    Now I have to stare at the wall for a bit while I consider that statement.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    The choice between Hammer/Shield and Lightning Claw may be a little harder now though, since Hammers have received a nerf and Lightning Claws a buff.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by 9mm View Post
    Once GW decides how they want the Gravis line to replace Devestators is when I suspect we'll see the First born purge.
    There’s also Terminators to consider: Bladeguard kind of fill that role, but Terminators are so iconic I expect there will be a Primaris version some day.

    On which note, thanks to finally painting up my copy of Space Hulk, I’m also picking up a box of Blood Angels Assault Terminators. Thoughts on load out? From SH I already have one with TH and SS, and one with Lightning Claws, and I have 4 Terminators I could build with either load out. I’m going to try magnets, but if those don’t go well how should I equip them?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Avaris View Post
    There’s also Terminators to consider: Bladeguard kind of fill that role, but Terminators are so iconic I expect there will be a Primaris version some day.

    On which note, thanks to finally painting up my copy of Space Hulk, I’m also picking up a box of Blood Angels Assault Terminators. Thoughts on load out? From SH I already have one with TH and SS, and one with Lightning Claws, and I have 4 Terminators I could build with either load out. I’m going to try magnets, but if those don’t go well how should I equip them?
    Lightning Claws are insanely good right now. A Terminator with 2 is putting out 4 attacks, 5 on a charge, at AP-2, with re-rolls to wound rolls. They're also very cheap. Downside is D1, though.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    Weirdly enough, the biggest gatekeeping aspects of the hobby are the ones you see the least amount of houserules to remove.

    WYSIWYG is a rich man's rule; 'must have physical book present' is another stupid ass rule that contributes to the perception of 'rules bloat', people thinking showing up somewhere with a case of minis is reasonable in the age of whatsapp and messenger groups, etc. There are so many QoL improvements people should be making to make the hobby easier to get into before touching rulebooks and mission packs, that they simply gloss over because if they had to do it, then by god everybody else forever will do it.
    Have you played against an Ork army where the Dreadnaughts where matchboxes and paintpots, with legs and arms mind but still? Where the Ork boyz used 2nd edition models and whether the Nob (a fantasy Orc from pre slottabases) was facing forwards or not defined whether they (the unit) carried shootas or slugga/choppa and what the nob was armed with? Oh, and the painting, or lack there of also carried implications for equipment used.

    And that's about the worst example I've had the misfortune to face. More normally players abused older models and homebuilt stuff to gain an advantage in the LOS game.

    WYSIWYG *is* a QoL improvement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Yes and No. Though I'm not sure whether you're talking about entire-unit proxies, or simply wargear switching.

    But ultimately WYSIWYG comes from an era of pre-5th Ed., and definitely not from tournament play, where your army lists were supposed to be hidden from your opponent. Your opponent was supposed to be able to make 'reasonable guesses' on what you had, based on what you modeled and/or put on the table. Hidden wargear, was exactly that - hidden. For example, in the Chaos 3.5 Codex, it was very common for a model to have a certain Daemonic Gift. It was too good not to take. However, you weren't supposed to tell your opponent which model had it, and if you just handed over your army list, they would just know.
    Pre-5th Ed. had many 'gotch'ya' moments when people would present their army lists "Joke's on you ****head, my model has had [wargear] the entire time, and now you're in Melee!" Like, you didn't have to reveal that your models had hidden wargear, until you used it. But when you used it, you would have to prove that you had it. ...Just as an aside, you also did not have to declare what units - if any - were inside what Transports, that's part of what made Transports so strong - your opponent had to guess what was inside, and if you had multiple Transports, your opponents could absolutely guess wrong.

    In the present, post-5th Ed. world, where handing your opponent your army list before the game even starts, is really common. Hell, sometimes your opponent simply holds onto your army list for the entire game (this is where 'no phones' really comes into play). If you've printed your list directly from Battlescribe (ew, gross), your opponent not only has your army list, but your opponent also has access to what everything does, too.

    "I know that model has a Plasma Pistol, but it's not written on your army list. Your army list says Bolt Pistol."
    ...The army list is correct. Always.

    But ultimately, WYSIWYG is a way to sell models, and that's why it exist. Otherwise people would just say that their Tactical Marines are now Intercessors, and there's no problem with Tacticals sucking, because there are no Tacticals anymore.

    Additionally, WYSIWYG wouldn't be a problem if what you liked, was good.
    I'm almost positive GW weighed in at some point on lists. I remember as far as I can tell globally it was agreed equipment had to be shown on the model, but special abilities did not. I remember for Chaos demonic upgrades had to be visible if they were equipment like. I want to say there was even a FAQ for it. But then both players usually knew what the upgrades were worth using too and acted like it. A bit like the old WHFB Wood Elf hero on eagle who flew forwards leaving the army behind. That was the guy who had the Hail of Doom Arrow magicitem.

    Also naturally the good program, Army Builder, let you print a summary list without the hidden stuff to give opponents.

    You are right, WYSIWYG is there to sell models. But so is everything else too. Having models and armylist match makes sense though. Ultimately though isn't this supposed to be an equal contest of 2 players and their skill and luck* determine the outcome? Gimicky traps doesn't exactly fit in that context.

    *and we add that becasue it's boring to look up a diagram of who won based on the armylist, otherwise why do we even have armylists in the first place?
    Last edited by snowblizz; 2020-10-26 at 05:15 AM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    My understanding is that WYSIWYG is an element in why there are far fewer options in unit choices now. Thinking back to the chaos codex in 3rd/4th ed (I think), there were a lot of cool options for characters that weren’t sold as models, but you could convert up. Now, every option has to be available as an official model either at release or soon after. So there was no option for a Primaris Sergeant with power fist until that option was made as a model.

    It’s not the only factor: I think there was also a copyright concern, but it is definitely an aspect.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Tactical Marines are viable, against anything that isn't other Space Marines.
    What I'm hearing here, is that Firstborn are balanced (because GW no longer cares about hard selling) and Primaris are broken. What does the Marine codex (and 9th ed meta) look like if you hard-ban all Primaris?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Voidhawk View Post
    What I'm hearing here, is that Firstborn are balanced (because GW no longer cares about hard selling) and Primaris are broken. What does the Marine codex (and 9th ed meta) look like if you hard-ban all Primaris?
    The same really as Terminators are not Primaris. 'balanced' is a misnomer since the equilibrium point isnt absolute, its relative to everything else that exists.

    In other news: New 'Combat Patrol' box sets for Deathwatch and Space Wolves (their codices come up for pre-sale this friday) in lieu of them getting a Start Collecting box. 140$ is a rather big jump for an intro box set; the DW one even pads its 'value' with 2x Upgrade Packs. Since Necrons dont have an Start Collecting yet, I wonder if this will be the new entry point going forward, and if so, why do they feel the need to be so agressively elitist; its bad enough with the recent price hike, but leaving no value options just feels like a bad move.
    Last edited by LansXero; 2020-10-26 at 06:57 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    The same really as Terminators are not Primaris. 'balanced' is a misnomer since the equilibrium point isnt absolute, its relative to everything else that exists.

    In other news: New 'Combat Patrol' box sets for Deathwatch and Space Wolves (their codices come up for pre-sale this friday) in lieu of them getting a Start Collecting box. 140$ is a rather big jump for an intro box set; the DW one even pads its 'value' with 2x Upgrade Packs. Since Necrons dont have an Start Collecting yet, I wonder if this will be the new entry point going forward, and if so, why do they feel the need to be so agressively elitist; its bad enough with the recent price hike, but leaving no value options just feels like a bad move.
    GW probably think they weeded out their value customers years ago. Way I see it only the people willing to replace their Sapce Marines with exactly equal Space Marines are left to buy ever more Sapce Marines they already own.

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    In other news, did some kitbashing this weekend, since my Ork Kill Team needed Nobz and Boss Nobz with Kombi-Skorchaz (and as far as I know, the only Kombi-Skorcha is one single one on the Nob sprue) out of Boyz, Burnas, and Bitz. They're off Boyz, so I might throw some shoulderpads on them to bulk them up a bit more.

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    I think the two on the left turned out best, the two on the right are kinda janky but hey, they're Orks so that's still pretty normal for their gear.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Voidhawk View Post
    What I'm hearing here, is that Firstborn are balanced (because GW no longer cares about hard selling) and Primaris are broken. What does the Marine codex (and 9th ed meta) look like if you hard-ban all Primaris?
    Custodes win every game.
    Sororitas win every other game, since they are Firstborn in all but name, except they actually get Stratagems and their Codex actually factors Sororitas into building an coherent army.
    Death Guard laugh and laugh all the way to the bank, as they get the +1 Wound, too, but now opposing Marines are shafted to D1 weapons, and will never hurt them again.
    Codex Marines resort to running Spearheads Grav-weapons, and literally nothing else, and sit on the bottom of the tournament meta, despite having a Codex less than six months old - they wave to Necrons.

    It isn't that Primaris Marines are good. It's that the Codex goes out of its way to ensure that you don't put Firstborn into your army. The exceptions are certain Veteran Squads and masse Grav. But I still get the feeling that when people say 'Firstborn', they mean 'Tactical Marines (and/or Scouts) and Vehicles'. They are not referring to Vanguard, Centurions, Devastators and Thunderfire Cannons. Which still remain to be pretty good, and are very much, Firstborn.

    Tactical Marines. Are a dead unit. This is problematic for grognards, since they are now the only Firstborn Troops unit - and they're bad.
    Except, you don't need to run a Battalion to make an army. Other Firstborn units, still exist, and are still pretty good - some of them I've just mentioned.

    If you want to play Firstborn:
    - Don't take Tactical Marines,
    - Don't take Vehicles that aren't Land Raiders, Land Speeders - that Arkhan fellow was a smart guy - Aircraft or Dreadnoughts.
    There's still a lot in the Codex to take.

    At this time, I'm just waiting on what will happen with Death Guard. They have the serious potential to annihilate the meta if/when they get +1 Wound with T5, Ignore Wounds models.
    I'm also very excited for Grey Knights, which is very likely to hard-counter the entire meta if it's any good.

    Space Marines have 2 Wounds each. This is a problem for every Faction in the game - including Space Marines.
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    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2020-10-26 at 10:18 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    The same really as Terminators are not Primaris. 'balanced' is a misnomer since the equilibrium point isnt absolute, its relative to everything else that exists.

    In other news: New 'Combat Patrol' box sets for Deathwatch and Space Wolves (their codices come up for pre-sale this friday) in lieu of them getting a Start Collecting box. 140$ is a rather big jump for an intro box set; the DW one even pads its 'value' with 2x Upgrade Packs. Since Necrons dont have an Start Collecting yet, I wonder if this will be the new entry point going forward, and if so, why do they feel the need to be so agressively elitist; its bad enough with the recent price hike, but leaving no value options just feels like a bad move.
    Both sets have 2 upgrade sprues, actually.

    Comparing the Deathwatch Combat Patrol to the old Start collecting box for Space Wolves, you pay $45 more for... an Apothecary (And get different upgeade sprues and a worse lieutenant).

    The new Space wolves box trades the Aggressors for an Invictor (A slightly more expensive model that didn't get horrendously dunked on), and adds 5 rievers/hounds of morkai (Half of a $60 kit, which would probably be sold at $35). So the space wolves patrol is a slightly better value, but still. Not greag.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    I'm bitterly disappointed by the change from the Start Collecting boxes to these Combat Patrol boxes: they seem a far less good value proposition.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Voidhawk View Post
    What I'm hearing here, is that Firstborn are balanced (because GW no longer cares about hard selling) and Primaris are broken. What does the Marine codex (and 9th ed meta) look like if you hard-ban all Primaris?
    Space Marines probably drop a tier but that's about it. There are good Firstborn units (Terminators for example), but now Space Marines don't have a good troop choice which will make things difficult. So either cram everything into a patrol or just take 3 min squads of tactical marines.

    The Apothecary ability works on Centurions, so stuff like that would still be used.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Razgriez View Post
    What can I do with my old Tactical Marines at this point? Aside from Kill-Team games (and even then you just bring the ones with equipment along), the only other thing I can think of is sell/trade to a 30k player that doesn't mind Early 3rd Edition or latter Marines, or Convert into Sternguard by adding battle bling.
    My opinion on this is tell GW to go eff themselves and use Tacs as Counts-As Primaris. But I started play with counts-as Carnifex with little cardboard cutouts on circles back in 3rd.
    Last edited by Keraunograf; 2020-10-26 at 04:07 PM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Razgriez View Post
    Ok, so... I now have to completely rebuild the core of my Ultramarines.

    Thanks GW Marketing department. Couldn't play the long game anymore, and gently coax us long-time players to adding Primaris units over time, could you? Nope, just had to hard nerf classic models to the point of being unusable, even in friendly casual games. The Troop choices no less. That's just absurdly greedy. And that's already after Codex 8.2 and Supplements last year.

    This is where I'm torn between restarting my Marines 90% from scratch (and deciding if I stick with the Ultramarines since I first started playing, or go another route), or go ahead, build T'au. Yes yes I know, "They're sub-50% in Tourney play!", "They have no Fight/Psychic phase!". Though I would have the advantage of starting from scratch with T'au, and tailoring them to 9ths more Mobile, Objective focused requirements (More Pulse Blasters and Carbines perhaps?)

    What can I do with my old Tactical Marines at this point? Aside from Kill-Team games (and even then you just bring the ones with equipment along), the only other thing I can think of is sell/trade to a 30k player that doesn't mind Early 3rd Edition or latter Marines, or Convert into Sternguard by adding battle bling.

    And I want to know what's viable options/suggestions here for rebuilding before I even bother purchasing a 9th Edition codex.

    I do have someone willing to sell/trade me the Vanguard Primaris from a Shadowspear box he never built, so at least I can begin shaping up that huge void now left in my Troop choices. I've been slow to get back into updating and rebuilding my old army and don't have enough Primaris Troops yet otherwise.

    Are Combat Squads (Split Full squads in half) still a thing?

    Side note, given changes to Icarus weapons I'm hearing, viability of Sgt. Chronus (Ultramarines) in a Stalker tank? Or keep him in a Whirlwind/Vindicator/Predator still?
    30K probably. I don't see how they can Primaris the past.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    30K probably. I don't see how they can Primaris the past.
    I'm still holding out hope that 30k will get a 9th Ed. update and be 40k compatible, so Firstborn get a flood of new rules - Destroyers, Breachers, etc - as well as all of the anti-Marine wargear and abilities to make them more of a match for Primaris.

    Wishful thinking maybe, but for players it'd make Firstborn viable and give us incentive to pick up some new stuff to add to our collections, and GW gets to sell us Forgeworld stuff that has been sitting on its shelf for 2+ years. Seems to solve a lot of problems, but whether or not they'll go for it.... Who knows.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    I'm still holding out hope that 30k will get a 9th Ed. update and be 40k compatible, so Firstborn get a flood of new rules - Destroyers, Breachers, etc - as well as all of the anti-Marine wargear and abilities to make them more of a match for Primaris.

    Wishful thinking maybe, but for players it'd make Firstborn viable and give us incentive to pick up some new stuff to add to our collections, and GW gets to sell us Forgeworld stuff that has been sitting on its shelf for 2+ years. Seems to solve a lot of problems, but whether or not they'll go for it.... Who knows.
    Isn't 30K still 6-7th edition rules for 40K?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Yep. It was supposed to be the "If you don't like 8th edition then you can play this and carry on using the 7th ed rules" alternative, except that it quickly became apparent that 8th ed was the best thing to happen to 40k in a long, long time and then everyone very quickly got bored of Space Marines-vs-Space Marines being the only plausible match up.

    Even more so than when Iron Hands were dominating the 40k meta back-to-back, at least.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Yeah, back in 7th I played one Imperial Guard vs. 30k Imperial Fists game. It was interesting, and now not to be repeated (not that I wouldn't break out the 7th edition books I still have, but it's not a likely thing to come up).
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    everyone very quickly got bored of Space Marines-vs-Space Marines being the only plausible match up.
    Remember when this was an actual joke on the GW message boards?

    "In the future it's going to be only Space Marines vs Space Marines....

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    How Do I Firstborn?

    Spoiler: HQ
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    Captain: You can take a Thunder Hammer. Primaris Marines, can't. This means that the reason you're going to take a Captain with Thunder Hammer, which, invariably means bringing a Jump Pack or Bike.

    Lieutenant: Cheap! Cheap HQs are good...Sometimes.

    Librarian: Jump Pack or Terminator Armour. Play to your Firstborn strengths!
    (As Firstborn, your strengths are not on foot)

    Chaplain: Jump Pack. Power Fist. 'Nuff said.

    Techmarine: Makes your Dreads, Whirlwinds and Land Raiders better.


    Spoiler: Elites
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    Command Squad:
    - Company Veteran; At only PR 3, you can put this guy into Reserves with almost any other unit and not even pay more CPs. A fantastic Character on par with a Captain. Unfortunately, Company Champions can't take Jump Packs, so you have to work a bit to make this guy effective.
    - Apothecary; Yep. Remember that a Chief Apothecary using Combat Revival for 0 CPs is one of the more better things in the Codex.
    - Company Ancient; Ancients are great for Gunlines... Unless of course, you go for a Chapter Ancient Warlord, looking for that Warlord Trait that hands out free Objective Secured? But if that's your plan, you could just give the same Warlord Trait to a Captain with Jump Pack, and have him scream in with Terminators.
    - Company Veterans; Every single one of them can take a Combi-Grav and Storm Shield. Throw in an actual Grav-Cannon, too, 'cause why not? Bodyguard make them a must-have unit. Even Primaris armies will still take a unit of Company Veterans, they're that good.
    (Bodyguard is almost definitely going to get nerfed)

    Vanguard: Fully customisable melee squad - with Jump Packs! Your army is certainly going to have to spam these or Terminators.

    Terminators: Having a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield is extremely good, especially 'cause you don't even need to pay a CP to make these guys good. They just are. The only thing they're missing, is T5...And it sure would be a shame if there were T5 Terminators in the game, those things would shatter the meta into a million pieces. Being Core makes them eligible for Objective Secured off of Warlord Traits.
    (There are.)

    Centurion Assault Squad: A proper dedicated Melee army, which you are, because you refuse to buy Primaris Marines with good guns, will have a unit of 5 of these bad boys in their army case at all times. So they're not a Core unit? Who gives a ****. They're still one of the best Melee units in the game. Centurions aren't Core, which doesn't matter at all, unless your army includes a Chapter Master.

    Dreadnoughts: Very solid anti-tank unit that doesn't degrade. Entirely possible to take loads and still have a good army. Avoid Ironclads.


    Spoiler: Land Speeders
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    Land Speeders: GW ****ed up and gave the Primaris Land Speeders 10 Wounds and kept them at T6 and thus, garbage. If you wanted to be that dumb, you should at least be an Aircraft. Firstborn Land Speeders 4 lyf.


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    Devastators: 4 Grav-Cannons and a Cherub will make a mess of Custodes and Death Guard that are arguably Space Marines' biggest threats in the meta (other than themselves). Drop Pods are your very best friend.

    Thunderfire Cannon: Still one of the best units in the Codex. Hopefully you brought a real Techmarine that buffs them, since you left your Core Keyword at home.

    Whirlwind: Yeah, yeah. It's a Vehicle with 10 or more Wounds that isn't even that good. But with the BS2+ from Land Speeders, and the ability to see through walls, and deal 2 Damage as standard, makes these guys deceptively strong in their Role.

    Land Raiders: If you must have Vehicles with 10+ Wounds, make 'em good. Twin Lascannons and a Twin Heavy Bolter is real good.

    Dedicated Transports
    Drop Pod: Why pay CPs to put your units in Reinforcements, when you can just pay points? Your Devastators coming down on Turn 1, more or less wherever you want, with their Grav-Cannons make a significant mess out of almost anything in the game. No true Firstborn army is complete without at least one.

    Fliers
    Yes.

    Fortifications
    Wait for nerf on Hammerfall Bunker. Are they sure that's how they want Defensive Array to work?


    But Cheesegear, what about Firstborn Troops!?
    What about them?
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2020-10-27 at 05:45 AM.
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