Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

[Cheesegear]

Agaisnt 6-10, it has a minimum of 3 shots total. But since it's 4d3, it'll never roll less than 3 anyway.

For some reason when writing that post, I decided that each dice was a separate shot. It's not.
You're right. Four, individual weapons, is better than a single Thunderfire.

Core, but can't see through walls:
Devastators (x5); Missile Launchers (x3) - 120 Points
3d6, Blast. But each d6 actually *is* a separate attack, so the RoF against 6-model units is 9-18, rather than 4-12.

That's unfortunate.

[Squark]

I'm struggling to decide whether a Thunderfire Cannon is terrible, or merely okay, after the horrific nerf:
(S5, AP-1...To S4, AP-)

Techmarine with Servo-Harness - 85 Points*
Hurricane Bolter (on Stormraven) - 15 Points**

* Whilst within 3" of the Cannon, the Gunner can't be targeted by ranged attacks. The Gunner can repair Vehicles, but can't give them +1 to hit.

Just to add insult to injury, the Gunner left his master-crafted power axe behind. What codex bloat? I mean, you were only going to make 2* attacks with it if you actually got into melee (and didn't get killed beforehand if he got charged), but come on.

*3 attacks+1 from shock attack -2 for your servo arm attacks.

[9mm]

I'm trying to figure out how someone looks at a Thunderfire and thinks the explosion from it is as powerful as a frag grenade.

well considering frag grenades are Strength 3, not 4 like the Thunderfire, they clearly didn't. Though Cheese is right, it's been nerfed to the ground outside of still delivering Tremor shells. GW sold a many as it could, realized how easy it was to make your own, and over nerfed it down.

[Blackhawk748]

well considering frag grenades are Strength 3, not 4 like the Thunderfire, they clearly didn't. Though Cheese is right, it's been nerfed to the ground outside of still delivering Tremor shells. GW sold a many as it could, realized how easy it was to make your own, and over nerfed it down.

Oh... wait... I'm thinking of Frag missiles aren't I? *checks* Yup, Frag Missiles. Been forever since I used greandes.

But ya, I can't help but look at that and come to that conclusion. They were nuts for a while and now they get nerfed into the dirt. Part of why all of my Ork Mek Guns are just old Civil War cannons with wires wrapped around them and Tau Iron Guns from their tanks.

I was not paying GW prices for 2 grots and a gun.

[Wraith]

On a note vaguely related to the price efficiency of the SC! boxes, I've decided to bite the bullet and am putting my Thousand Sons up for e-doption.

I've had them for about a year and a half and have only played with them once, and then... well... *gestures broadly at everything*. Lockdown and stuff I could deal with, but the changes to the game rules have just completely killed my enthusiasm for them - best case scenario, I shell out more money for an out-of-date Psychic Awakening and hope I can jury rig something not-crap, and frankly I'm not inclined to double-down like that.

My first mistake was to buy a whole army and then realise that I have to paint an whole army, against my own advice. Time to shop for another less-crap faction and do it *carefully* this time, maybe Still kinda thinking of a Dark Angels gunline and build my own Primaris Azrael to go with my custom built Sevrin Loth, but... Eh... Space Marines again....

[Forum Explorer]

It's the ol' 'GW Completely Ruins It' play:

TfC is 99 Points - ridiculous!
TfC is S5, AP-1 - that's crazy!
TfC has a Stratagem that can let it shoot twice - OMGWTFBBQ!?

Remove all three of those good points to make it unplayable.
There...Fixed?

Yup, the Thunderfire Cannon did need a nerf. It was undercosted, too accurate, had too many shots, and delivered tremor shells which too effective against melee armies.

But they probably only needed to hit one of those things. Not all of them.

[Blackhawk748]

Yup, the Thunderfire Cannon did need a nerf. It was undercosted, too accurate, had too many shots, and delivered tremor shells which too effective against melee armies.

But they probably only needed to hit one of those things. Not all of them.

The points increase would probably have been enough. As it is, I think it's probably crap.

[Saambell]

What I feel needs to be asked is how the TFC fairs compared to that new Primaris Turret. By nerfing the TFC they may be paving the road to that thing being the replacement. Unless it sucks in which case what are they even doing?

[Cheesegear]

What I feel needs to be asked is how the TFC fairs compared to that new Primaris Turret. By nerfing the TFC they may be paving the road to that thing being the replacement.

Nah, you should just assume that if it was good in 8th, it's nerfed. Buy new models.
(Thunderfires, Centurions, Eliminators, Vicky Warsuits, Repulsors, Land Raiders, etc.)
Space Marine Heavy Support is where you see the most significant nerfs. And 'suddenly' with the drop of the new Codex, Space Marine players from 8th Ed. see their loss rate increase. I know, craaazy right. What we should infer now, is that the Space Marine Codex is barely a B-Tier Codex.

But, to answer your question, against everything that isn't a unit of 11+ models, the Firestrike is better than the TfC. The New Marine meta seems to operate around Autocannons, Grav, and Melta/Las weapons. Both kinds of Firestrike fit into those categories. But, do you actually need to buy a Firestrike?

What you really have to ask, is "Just how valuable is being able to see through walls?"
And then turn to the Whirlwind, which is a Thunderfire Cannon which doesn't suck.

[Cheesegear]

Here's where the Space Marine Codex gets...Offensive.
Heavy Support was the most competitive Role in 8th Ed. (and well into 9th Ed., too), and most Marine lists were built around the Role. So, if it was good in 8th Ed. it's been nerfed. The new competitive slot is arguably Fast Attack.
Despite nerfs, some things manage to still be good (e.g; Repulsors)

Spoiler: Heavy Support

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Hellblasters: They'd be really, really, really good...If they didn't have to Supercharge to be effective. But, they do.

Eliminators: Coming only in squads of 3, these guys pose reasonably significant threats to your opponents targets, and they make really tempting KPs since your opponent would really like to destroy them anyway. With Concealed Positions, these guys can usually be set up in a position to see your opponent's Characters, even if there are LoS-blockers on the board. There are two main ammo types that you will use - even though there are three types:

• Executioner; +1 to hit, and 'ignore the benefits of cover'. This ammo type is incredibly useful for when your opponent's Characters have abilities that give +2 to their Cover save - very similar to Eliminators' own Camo Cloaks - since now the effective AP of the ammo is AP-3, and on Turn 1, it's AP-4...And you have +1 to hit. Very strong ammo type. Unfortunately, it only deals one damage a pop, so it's usually not worth using in most situations.
• Mortis Round; AP-2, 2 Damage, deals an addition Mortal Wound on a '6' to wound. Very, strong. Ignoring Look Out, Sir! is pretty good.

Centurion Devastator Squad: Ignores 'benefits of Cover' as standard, so already pretty good. Can move-and-shoot Heavy weapons without penalties, so, good again. Ultimately, the default loadout is the best loadout, because, you guessed it...Grav-Cannons. The real choice you have to make is Hurricane Bolters or Centurion Missile Launchers. If you've been reading this far, it's not actually a choice. But, maybe it is because that's how your meta just is. For a non-CORE unit that's 85 Points per model, joke's on you, they're still one of the best units in the Codex.

Eradicator Squad: If this unit wasn't T5 with 3 Wounds, and could shoot twice with 24" anti-tanks weapons, they'd be pretty bad. Fortunately, they are all of those things, and are one of the best units in the Codex.

Devastator Squad: See those Hellblasters? Garbage. The thing that seperates Primaris Marines from Firstborn, is their weaponry. Unfortunately, Devastators brought the pain, so there is no functional difference between Devastators and Hellblasters. So the only thing that changes, is access to weapons; First, if you haven't already got Heavy Intercessors, Devastators can pick up a Heavy Bolter for Hellfire Shells, Devastators can also pick up a Missile Launcher, for Flakk Missile. And, if that wasn't enough, every single one of them can be equipped with a Grav-Cannon, making Primaris Marines a joke, because Grav-weapons are the best weapons in the book, 'cause even if you move, you're still shooting with 4 shots so -1 to hit doesn't even matter. The Armorium Cherub is the first thing you should take when you've got a few points to spend at the end of your list. But, really, you could give them any Heavy weapon (other than Plasma Cannons), and they'd still end up being one of the best damage-dealers in the Codex, because they max out at only 38 Points each. Which means you can take lots of them (i.e; 3x5 Devastators in your army isn't wrong).

Thunderfire Cannon: This unit...Isn't great. There are some good things about it. But it's still not great. At 120 Points, this thing operates like 4 bad Frag Missiles that only do D3 shots, that can shoot through walls. It should be noted, however, that the Techmarine Gunner, can't be targeted with ranged attacks, whilst he's standing next to his Cannon, which, in turn, enables him to repair Vehicles better. So, next to your Thunderfire, you can have another Vehicle (e.g; A Whirlwind?), that can take mitigated damage. However, unlike an actual Techmarine, a Techmarine Gunner is forced into taking a Servo-Harness, and can't give out +1 to hit, to Vehicles. So, why take this unit? ...*Shrug*... How valuable is seeing over Obscuring Terrain? It's...Pretty valuable. However, with Bikes, Land Speeders and various ways of deployment, Space Marines have the units with the maneuverability to get angles around Obscuring terrain that seeing through walls, isn't quite actually required. Ultimately, Thunderfire Cannons just aren't good.

Firestrike Servo-Turret: A BS2+ Heavy 6 Autocannon for only 90 Points, is very good. A BS2+ Heavy 4 Lascannon for 130 Points, is also good. However, the T5 Vehicle with only 5 Wounds is where this thing falls apart, especially since unlike a Thunderfire Cannon, Firestrikes don't have the ability to hide behind Obscuring Terrain and still shoot. Not a bad unit by any means. However, what it does, can be done by many other things in the Codex, better. If not necessarily cheaper.

SMOKESCREEN Keyword: Everything except Gladiators has it by default. Which makes it really weird that Gladiators don't just cost 5 more points and also have it by default.

Hunter: 110 Points to be worse than the Flakk Missile Stratagem. A single shot that's only very good against a single unit type. Otherwise it's 110 Points for a single Lascannon. Hard pass.

Stalker: 115 Points. Not bad. Not good. It's more Autocannons, which means it works, in the exact way that the Hunter, doesn't. It also has T8 which is...Good.

Whirlwind: 125 Points to be way better than the Thunderfire Cannon, in the exact same role (anti-horde from behind Obscuring terrain). But, not only are they better than the Thunderfire Cannon anyway, but the Whirlwind can also be upgraded to instead, fire an Autocannon that can see through walls and has Blast. Whirlwinds are decently strong units. Remember that vanilla Land Speeders can also give all Whirlwinds in your army, +1 to hit.

Predators - T7, 11 Wounds. When you put Sponsons on a Predator, they're worse than Storm Speeders...Did Storm Speeders just get good? "There is no rules bloat.":

• Destructor: A Stalker is T8, and is technically Heavy 6, whilst Pred.Destructor is Heavy 2D3, which is way worse. A Predator Autocannon does 3 Damage, and that's cool. But also a Stalker costs less...And is T8. When it comes to Vehicles; Survivability, matters. Especially for ones with 10+ Wounds.
• Annihilator: 130 Points for two Lascannons? That's a joke, right?

Gladiators - T8, 12 Wounds. REPULSOR FIELD, and can also optionally pick up the SMOKESCREEN Keyword for only 5 Points. "There is no rules bloat."

• Lancer: For 200 Points, your main battle tank is going to need more than 2 shots, even if it does have BS 2+.
• Reaper: You like 1 Damage weapons? Didn't think so. Still, it does have 24 S6, AP-1 shots, and that's not nothing. Especially in the right match-up.
• Valiant: It's a Firestrike Turret, attached to a T8 Platform, with Multi-Meltas attached. For 250 Points, it's very expensive. But at least it actually does its job, whilst also having strong defensive capabilities that makes it not free VPs to your opponent. Good job, GW. You made one variant, right.

Vindicator: It's a Firestrike Turret that can actually move more than 3" a turn. Not only that, but against ranged attacks, it has a 2+ Save - was it mentioned that a Vindicator is also T8?

Land Raiders - T8, 16 Wounds, 2+ Save. MACHINE SPIRIT Keyword. All Land Raiders cost the same amount of points, which doesn't quite make sense, but there you go. All Land Raiders can take a Multi-Melta. Multi-Meltas are good. "There is no rules bloat.":

• Land Raider: With a Twin Heavy Bolter, and two Twin Lascannons, this is by far the best Land Raider, if, Land Raiders are what you care about. Transports 10 non-Primaris models.
• Land Raider Crusader: Gain the ASSAULT LAUNCHERS Keyword. With a Twin Assault Cannon, and two Hurricane Bolters, that's a lot of 1 Damage weapons, and so not very good. However, it has a Transport Capacity of 16 non-Primaris models, which actually means that it can transport 5 Assault Centurions, which is the exact right amount of Assault Centurions to Transport.
• Land Raider Redeemer: Gain the ASSAULT LAUNCHERS Keyword. Come with Flamestorm Cannons, which only have a 12" range. So, with the 10" Move, a Redeemer only has a threat range of 22", which, in most cases, is enough...If you go first. A Redeemer 'only' has a Transport of 12 models, which is enough to carry 5 Terminators - which is the right amount of Terminators.

Repulsors: T8, 16 Wounds, 3+ Save. MACHINE SPIRIT, REPULSOR FIELD and has SMOKESCREEN by default.

• Repulsor: The cheapest they can be is 315 Points. That being said, with their defensive statline (above), they have 10 weapons, able to obliterate most Light-to-Medium Infantry - including Space Marines. Now, part of you might be saying that you could probably get 10 weapons, somewhere else, for 315 Points (total). For example, 4*Land Speeder Tornados. However, remember that each of those Land Speeders represents 2VPs, each. Whilst a Repulsor, represents a maximum of 3. Repulsors are very, very, very good. Even if they don't have FLY, like it appears that they should. Additionally, a Repulsor can transport 10 Primaris Marines. That could be 2 units of 5 Assault Intercessors. Or, it could be 5 Aggressors, which is the right amount of Aggressors. However, if you are going to 'hide' Aggressors inside a Repulsors, keep 'em cheap, with Flamestorm Gauntlets.
• Increasing the cost of the Repulsor, with the Las-Talon, Onslaught Gatling Cannon and Twin Lascannon, changes the anti-Infantry role of the Repulsor, to anti-anything on the board. Those three weapons, combined, only adds up to 30 Points. Using your 350 Point Vehicle to kill other Vehicles is certainly something you can do. But, also remember that Gladiator Valiants are things that exist...
• Repulsor Executioner: ...However this exists. Yes, it's got a Plasma weapon as its main weapon. But it's a Vehicle, so when it explodes, it only take a Mortal Wound, instead of imploding. If you're running Vehicles with Plasma weapons, you've got a Techmarine. Wounds can be Repaired. A Repulsor Exeuctioner is good at its role...But so is a Gladiator Valiant. An executioner can transport 6 Primaris Marines which is enough to Transport...Something...Who cares?

TL;DR - The 'real' commentary.
Hellblasters: Meta changed. They suck now.
Eliminators: Nerfed. Still playable, though.
Centurion Devastators: Nerfed and de-powered. Still playable, though. This kind of unit will always have a place in the current meta, unless the points costs is dramatically raised to the point of ludicrousness.
Eradicators: New unit. Power creep is real.
Devastators: Like Primaris Marines, but with Heavy weapons. Giving Firstborn parity with Primaris Marines, means that the only thing that matters, is the weapons. And Devastators have really good weapons.
Thunderfire Cannon: Received a triple nerf making them utter garbage.
Firestrike Servo-Turret: Failed Power Creep. (Does that mean it's balanced?)
Hunter: **** since its inception. Only time people ever used one, was because excatly one was a requirement for a really, really strong Formation back in 7th Ed.
Stalker: Plays to the meta. Therefore good.
Whirlwind: Plays to the meta. Therefore good.
Predators: The sucks.
Gladiator: A balanced Tank that works well. Potentially failed power creep, since one variant is so much stronger/relevant than the others.
Vindicator: Strongly buffed. Unfortunately too limited in scope.
Land Raiders: Their Transport Capacity is more relevant now that Firstborn don't suck. However, the meta has changed and LR.Crusaders have greatly fallen out of favour compared to the other two.
Repulsors: Increased in points and lost abilities (e.g; Fly). But still strong.

[Drasius]

TL;DR - The 'real' commentary.
Hellblasters: Meta changed. They suck now.
Eliminators: Nerfed. Still playable, though.
Centurion Devastators: Nerfed and de-powered. Still playable, though. This kind of unit will always have a place in the current meta, unless the points costs is dramatically raised to the point of ludicrousness.
Eradicators: New unit. Power creep is real.
Devastators: Like Primaris Marines, but with Heavy weapons. Giving Firstborn parity with Primaris Marines, means that the only thing that matters, is the weapons. And Devastators have really good weapons.
Thunderfire Cannon: Received a triple nerf making them utter garbage.
Firestrike Servo-Turret: Failed Power Creep. (Does that mean it's balanced?)
Hunter: **** since its inception. Only time people ever used one, was because excatly one was a requirement for a really, really strong Formation back in 7th Ed.
Stalker: Plays to the meta. Therefore good.
Whirlwind: Plays to the meta. Therefore good.
Predators: The sucks.
Gladiator: A balanced Tank that works well. Potentially failed power creep, since one variant is so much stronger/relevant than the others.
Vindicator: Strongly buffed. Unfortunately too limited in scope.
Land Raiders: Their Transport Capacity is more relevant now that Firstborn don't suck. However, the meta has changed and LR.Crusaders have greatly fallen out of favour compared to the other two.
Repulsors: Increased in points and lost abilities (e.g; Fly). But still strong.

Most of the things I like are mostly good? Most of the things I don't like are mostly bad? Whirlwinds are better than TFC's? Land Speeders are solid options? 2020 really is the end times.

[Cheesegear]

Guide to Space Marines (2020)
Part III - Non-Core Units

Part I - ADEPTUS ASTARTES special rules and Detachment abilities.
Part II - Your CORE units that can actually be force multiplied through Characters and Abilities.

Spoiler: Elites

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Centurion Assault Squad: Why aren't they CORE? Who knows? These guys are the best Melee unit in the book. They're what Aggressors wish they were, and their Siege Drills are what Thunder Hammers, wish they were. ASSAULT LAUNCHERS is a Keyword that's cool on Turns 1 and 2. If it takes you three turns before you Charge, you're probably better off with Hurricanes. The only reason to not use this unit, is if you're playing heavily into Abilities that give CORE units Objective Secured, or, you're army has a CHAPTER MASTER that generally really wants CORE units around it (e.g; Aggressors).

Invictor Tactical Warsuit: It isn't actually a Dreadnought and so, isn't CORE. But, since they have Concealed Positions they're pretty good. Unfortunately, they're T6 Vehicles with 11+ Wounds. So if your opponent can kill them easily, you're basically throwing the game for some reason. They take a similar position in the Codex as Centurion Assault Squads, but don't quite cost as much, aren't as good, and don't require Stratagems and CPs to deploy halfway up the board to get into Melee on Turn 1. Very aggressive unit that's not even bad.

Spoiler: Fast Attack

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Storm Speeders
Generally speaking, they're overcosted, and making them non-CORE makes them even less appealing. Fortunately, they're a VEHICLE, with exactly 10 Wounds, which is the maximum amount of Wounds you want on a Vehicle that isn't extremely durable:

- Hailstrike. For 150 Points, you have to find a better way to destroy hordes of Infantry.
- Thunderstrike. The BS2+ is very nice, since you're packing low RoF weapons. But at 175 Points, there are simply better ways to remove Vehicles from your opponent's side of the board that don't involve having a Vehicle with 10 Wounds, only being T6.
- Hammerstrike. The 'best' version of the Storm Speeder. But when you look at the competition, it's not like there is any. If it wasn't for other, cheaper things in Fast Attack that didn't give away Secondary VPs, this - or the Thunderstrike, depending on match-up - might just be the best in slot. Unfortunately, cheaper things do exist in the Fast slot...And in the Elites slot...And in the Heavy slot.

Land Speeders
Their amazing speed lends them fantastically towards packing Multi-Meltas. Their main benefit over Attack Bikes, is that they FLY. But, once again, Attack Bikes are CORE, and not Vehicles, either, meaning that you can actually force multiply them pretty hard when you try:

- Land Speeder. Cheapest version, by virtue of having only one weapon (Heavy Bolter or Multi-Melta). Oddly, the 'vanilla' Land Speeder can be used as a combo piece, giving your WHIRLWINDS +1 to hit, and that's nice. A Squadron of 3 with Multi-Meltas is 'only' 210 Points. And that's a bit of a joke. You could take two, with Multi-Meltas, and still be cheaper than a single Storm Speeder.
- Tornado. Add another gun (Assault Cannon or Heavy Flamer). Not a great variant since the only weapon that matters on a Land Speeder is the Multi-Melta. However, the Assault Cannon is good in metas where your opponents run a lot of single-wound models that have Invulnerable saves (e.g; Harlequins, Daemons). But a lot of things can do that, too. And you don't neccessarily need a Land Speeder Tornado to do it...Thunderfire Cannons and Whirlwinds will do the same job...And if you took a 'vanilla' Land Speeder, instead, that Whirlwind would even have +1 to hit.
- Typhoon. ~60 Points less than a Storm Speeder, and does the same job. Could potentially be best in slot...If you weren't getting two Attack Bikes, with Multi-Meltas, for the same cost. Still, a very strong unit, that simply isn't as strong as the 'best' unit in the Fast slot.

Spoiler: Heavy Support

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Thunderfire Cannon: At 120 Points, this thing operates like 4 bad Frag Missiles that only do D3 shots, that can shoot through walls. It should be noted, however, that the Techmarine Gunner, can't be targeted with ranged attacks, whilst he's standing next to his Cannon, which, in turn, enables him to repair Vehicles better. So, next to your Thunderfire, you can have another Vehicle (e.g; A Whirlwind?), that can take mitigated damage. However, unlike an actual Techmarine, a Techmarine Gunner is forced into taking a Servo-Harness, and can't give out +1 to hit, to Vehicles. So, why take this unit? ...It depends how important seeing through Obscuring Terrain is. Since you're Space Marines, you can use many different Deployment Abilities to be where you need to be that that really shouldn't be an issue.

Firestrike Servo-Turret: Firestrikes don't have the ability to hide behind Obscuring Terrain and still shoot. Not a bad unit at all. Unfortunately, what it does, can be done by many other things in the Codex, better. If not necessarily cheaper.

---

All Astartes 'tank' Vehicles - except the Gladiator Datasheets - have the SMOKESCREEN Keyword.

Hunter: 110 Points to be worse than the Flakk Missile Stratagem.

Stalker: 115 Points. Not bad. Not good. It's more Autocannons, which means it works, in the exact way that the Hunter, doesn't. It also has T8 which is...Good.

Whirlwind: 125 Points to be way better than the Thunderfire Cannon, in the exact same role (anti-horde from behind Obscuring terrain). But, not only are they better than the Thunderfire Cannon anyway, but the Whirlwind can also be upgraded to instead, fire an Autocannon that can see through walls and has Blast. Whirlwinds are decently strong units. Remember that vanilla Land Speeders can also give all Whirlwinds in your army, +1 to hit.

Predators
T7, 11 Wounds. When you put Sponsons on a Predator, they're worse than Storm Speeders, which are bad:

• Destructor: A Stalker is T8, and is technically Heavy 6, whilst Pred.Destructor is Heavy 2D3, which is way worse. A Predator Autocannon does 3 Damage, and that's cool. But also a Stalker costs less...And is T8. When it comes to Vehicles; Survivability, matters. Especially for ones with 11+ Wounds.
• Annihilator: 130 Points for two Lascannons? That's a joke, right?

Gladiators
REPULSOR FIELD, SMOKESCREEN Keyword for only 5 Points - why doesn't it just have it by default like every other tank? 12 Wounds, but has T8 so isn't totally worthless:

• Lancer: For 200 Points, your main battle tank is going to need more than 2 shots, even if it does have BS 2+.
• Reaper: You like 1 Damage weapons? Didn't think so. Still, it does have 24 S6, AP-1 shots, and that's not nothing. Especially in the right match-up.
• Valiant: It's a Firestrike Turret, attached to a T8 Platform, with Multi-Meltas attached. For 250 Points, it's very expensive. But at least it actually does its job, whilst also having strong defensive capabilities that makes it not free VPs to your opponent. Good job, GW. You made one variant, right.

Vindicator: It's a Firestrike Turret that can actually move more than 3" a turn. Not only that, but against ranged attacks, it has a 2+ Save - was it mentioned that a Vindicator is also T8? Decent.

Land Raiders
MACHINE SPIRIT. T8, 16 Wounds, 2+ Save. All good things. All Land Raiders can take a Multi-Melta. Multi-Meltas are good:

• Land Raider: With a Twin Heavy Bolter, and two Twin Lascannons, this is by far the best Land Raider, if, Land Raiders are what you care about. Transports 10 Firstborn Infantry model slots.
• Land Raider Crusader: Add ASSAULT LAUNCHERS Keyword. With a Twin Assault Cannon, and two Hurricane Bolters, that's a lot of 1 Damage weapons, and so not very good. However, it has a Transport Capacity of 16 Firstborn slots, which actually means that it can transport 5 Assault Centurions, with an accompianing Character, which is the exact right amount of Assault Centurions to Transport.
• Land Raider Redeemer: Add ASSAULT LAUNCHERS Keyword. Come with Flamestorm Cannons, which only have a 12" range. So, with the 10" Move, a Redeemer only has a threat range of 22", which, in most cases, is enough...If you go first. A Redeemer 'only' has a Transport of 12 models, which is enough to carry 5 Terminators - which is the right amount of Terminators.

Repulsors:
MACHINE SPIRIT, REPULSOR FIELD and SMOKESCREEN are all solid Keywords. T8, 16 Wounds, 3+ Save. Not quite as good as a Land Raider. But near enough:

• Repulsor: The cheapest they can be is 315 Points. That being said, with their defensive statline (above), they have 10 weapons, able to obliterate most Light-to-Medium Infantry - including Space Marines. Now, part of you might be saying that you could probably get 10 weapons, somewhere else, for 315 Points (total). For example, 4*Land Speeder Tornados. However, remember that each of those Land Speeders represents 2VPs, each. Whilst a Repulsor, represents a maximum of 4. Repulsors are very, very, very good. Even if they don't have FLY, like it appears that they should. Additionally, a Repulsor can transport 10 Primaris Marines. That could be 2 units of 5 Assault Intercessors. Or, it could be 5 Aggressors, which is the right amount of Aggressors. However, if you are going to 'hide' Aggressors inside a Repulsors, keep 'em cheap, with Flamestorm Gauntlets so that they aren't 'wasting' their Shooting phases.
• Increasing the cost of the Repulsor, with the Las-Talon, Onslaught Gatling Cannon and Twin Lascannon, changes the anti-Infantry role of the Repulsor, to anti-anything on the board. Those three weapons, combined, only adds up to 30 Points. Using your 350 Point Vehicle to kill other Vehicles is certainly something you can do. But, also remember that Gladiator Valiants are things that exist...
• Repulsor Executioner: ...However this exists. Yes, it's got a Plasma weapon as its main weapon. But it's a Vehicle, so when it explodes, it only take a Mortal Wound, instead of imploding. If you're running Vehicles with Plasma weapons, you've got a Techmarine. Wounds can be Repaired. A Repulsor Exeuctioner is good at its role...But so is a Gladiator Valiant. An executioner can transport 6 Primaris Marines which is enough to Transport...Something...Who cares?

Spoiler: Dedicated Transports

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Rhino: Transports 10 non-Primaris Marines, has two Storm Bolters...Terrible. Any ranged unit that could embark in this Transport, should be on the board, shooting. Any Melee unit you own, should be using a Deployment Ability.

Razorback: Twin Heavy Bolters are good. Twin Lascannons are good. Razorbacks, however, are not good.

Impulsor: The Assault Vehicle rule is surprisingly good, since it's one of the only Vehicles in the game that allows drive-bys. A unit inside can disembark after the Impulsor has moved - however they can't Charge. They can, however, shoot. And shooting is what Astartes are mostly good at. So it's great for rolling up on Turn 1 and dropping a squad of Intercessors anywhere you want, without having to use a Deployment Ability (i.e; CPs). Unfortunately, an Impulsor can't transport GRAVIS models. So, the fact that an Impuslor would be perfect for Eradicators, is probably why it can't Transport them.

Drop Pod: One of the few units in the game (the only unit?) that can be set up in the Reinforcements step of your first turn. Carries 10 Firstborn light infantry. Neither this Transport, nor any of the units inside it, count towards your Reinforcements limit. Which means a Drop Pod is like having Reinforcements, but not having Reinforcements. Which actually means that they're extremely strong, albeit limited - any unit that Disembarks from the Drop Pod, must also end their Movement 9" away from enemy models. The main use of a Drop Pod is to slam down a Captain and unit of Grav-Devastators anywhere you want. Remember, Grav-Cannons have -1 to hit because they moved. But, with 4 shots each, and the Captain letting them re-roll 1s to hit, it's not like they care. Grav-Cannons are phenomenal. If you want to save some points, and put your Vanguard in a Drop Pod, sans Jump Packs...That works too, especially with Black Templars giving re-roll to Charges.
"Yeah, Chaplains can give +2 to Charge, too!"
Kind of. Remember, the Reinforcements step - even on Turn 1 - happens after the Movement phase, which is a long time after the Command Phase. During the Command Phase, if your Chaplain is in a Drop Pod, they're not on the board, they're not Inspiring. What you can do, is use a Primaris Chaplain on Bike, Inspire with +2 to Charge rolls, using your Bike-movement to roll up where you want to be, land the Drop Pod 'on' the Bike Chaplain, and give your Vanguard Veterans +2" Charge, from there.
"Can I deploy my entire army in Drop Pods?"
Nerf Alert: Drop Pods, and units inside Drop Pods, don't count towards your Reinforcements limit. So...Yes! ...For now.

Land Speeder Storm: Not to be confused with Storm Speeders (What is actually wrong with GW?), this unit would be really, really good, if it didn't only Transport Scouts. Since its Open-Topped - and an Assault Vehicle - your Scouts inside lose nothing at all by remaining inside it. If you are going to run Scouts, it can be worth the 55 Points to give them an extra 7, T6 Wounds that come attached to a Heavy Bolter and a Frag Missile. Additionally, a Land Speeder Storm is a Vehicle with CP-free Outflank. Which is great for coming in off the side of the board, and using the Assault Vehicle rule to drop 5 Scouts on an Objective...Which would be great if Scouts had Objective Secured, but they don't. So it's probably not worth it. Sad face.

Spoiler: Aircraft

Show

Stormhawk Interceptor: Sole use is make Storm Speeders totally irrelavent. Without Hover Jet, it's really important to plan ahead and make sure you pivot your model during the Movement phase. Otherwise just shoot all your good weapons at good targets, and you can't really go wrong with a Stormhawk. They're very good models.

Stormtalon Gunship: Sole use is to make Storm Speeders totally irrelavent by being the exact same model, except better. Compared to the Stormhawk, the Stormtalon drops to T6, 10 Wounds (like a Storm Speeder), loses a weapon system, but can Hover Jet.

Stormraven Gunship: The most expensive model in the Codex. Because it's an AIRCRAFT, that also functions as a main battle tank. Similar to a Repulsor, for the same points, you could very easily get 4 or 5 smaller Vehicles with the same amount - and the same type - of weapons. However, in 9th Ed.'s meta, you have to remember that in a lot of cases, less is more, and you mostly come down to two game plans:

• More units on the board, gives greater board control. However, more units on the board gives your opponent better viability to score Secondary Kill Points/Victory Points. Especially if those Kill Points are Vehicles.
• Less units on the board, gives your opponents less VPs in the long run. In the short run, more of your firepower is concentrated into few units, so that if your opponent ever takes something out, even for a fractional amount of VPs, it hurts your army disproportionately.

Additionally, a Stormraven can Transport 12 Firstborn Infantry, and a single Dreadnought. As with Land Raiders previously, carrying 5 Heavy Infantry (Assault Terminators, Vanguard Veterans [with Jump Packs], and Wulfen - or 4 () Assault Centurions - is the way to go, since as Melee units, Assault Terminators and Assault Centurions don't really need to be on the board, unless they're in Melee, and riding in a Transport is a very good CP-free, Reinforcements-free way to get into your enemy's DZ on Turn 1, for a Turn 2 Charge that's actually way easier than coming in 9" away (i.e; From a table edge). Which actually means you can throw in two units of Vanguard Veterans sans Jump Packs (i.e; 10 models), since by being in your opponent's DZ anyway, it's not like you need the Jump Packs. Since a Stormraven does have Hover Jet, and on Turn 2, you don't have to have mandatory movement, and you can just hang out in your enemy's DZ. Having a Stormraven in your army, is the only reason you should ever have an Ironclad Contemptor Dreadnought.

Spoiler: Fortification

Show

Hammerfall Bunker: 175 Points for an immobile, T8, 14 Wounds VEHICLE. Also, it has BS4+. It has a Missile Launcher that has +2S on both Frag and Krak Missiles, and, in addition, it has a Heavy Bolter Array, that you should never, ever trade for a Heavy Flamer Array.
Nerf Alert: Heavy Bolter Array: The Hammerfall Bunker, can make a standard Heavy Bolter attack (3 shots) against every unit within line of sight and range, every time it shoots. It doesn't sound like much, especially because a Hammerfall is BS4+. But still, remember that Heavy Bolters do 2 Damage a pop, and being able to shoot every enemy unit on the board, is a pretty powerful ability. When you start putting two or even three Hammerfalls on the board, you will see some problems.

It needs repeating for the ones in the back:
One Hammerfall, is totally fine, in fact it might even be 'a bit ****'.
Two or Three Hammerfalls is when things start to get b0rked. Especially in a meta or on a board that restricts Obscuring Terrain pieces.

[Forum Explorer]

Home stretch, boys.

Spoiler: Dedicated Transports

Show

Rhino: Transports 10 non-Primaris Marines, has two Storm Bolters...Terrible. Any ranged unit that could embark in this Transport, should be on the board, shooting. Any Melee unit you own, should be using a Deployment Ability.

Razorback: Twin Heavy Bolters are good. Twin Lascannons are good. Razorbacks, however, are not good.

Impulsor: The Assault Vehicle rule is surprisingly good, since it's one of the only Vehicles in the game that allows drive-bys. A unit inside can disembark after the Impulsor has moved - however they can't Charge. They can, however, shoot. And shooting is what Astartes are mostly good at. So it's great for rolling up on Turn 1 and dropping a squad of Intercessors anywhere you want, without having to use a Deployment Ability (i.e; CPs). Unfortunately, an Impulsor can't transport GRAVIS models. So, the fact that an Impuslor would be perfect for Eradicators, is probably why it can't Transport them.

Drop Pod: One of the few units in the game (the only unit?) that can be set up in the Reinforcements step of your first turn. Carries 10 Firstborn light infantry. Neither this Transport, nor any of the units inside it, count towards your Reinforcements limit. Which means a Drop Pod is like having Reinforcements, but not having Reinforcements. Which actually means that they're extremely strong, albeit limited - any unit that Disembarks from the Drop Pod, must also end their Movement 9" away from enemy models. The main use of a Drop Pod is to slam down a Captain and unit of Grav-Devastators anywhere you want. Remember, Grav-Cannons have -1 to hit because they moved. But, with 4 shots each, and the Captain letting them re-roll 1s to hit, it's not like they care. Grav-Cannons are phenomenal. If you want to save some points, and put your Vanguard in a Drop Pod, sans Jump Packs...That works too, especially with Black Templars giving re-roll to Charges.
"Yeah, Chaplains can give +2 to Charge, too!"
Kind of. Remember, the Reinforcements step - even on Turn 1 - happens after the Movement phase, which is a long time after the Command Phase. During the Command Phase, if your Chaplain is in a Drop Pod, they're not on the board, they're not Inspiring. What you can do, is use a Primaris Chaplain on Bike, Inspire with +2 to Charge rolls, using your Bike-movement to roll up where you want to be, land the Drop Pod 'on' the Bike Chaplain, and give your Vanguard Veterans +2" Charge, from there.
"Can I deploy my entire army in Drop Pods?"
Nerf Alert: Drop Pods, and units inside Drop Pods, don't count towards your Reinforcements limit. So...Yes! ...For now.

Land Speeder Storm: Not to be confused with Storm Speeders (What is actually wrong with GW?), this unit would be really, really good, if it didn't only Transport Scouts. Since its Open-Topped - and an Assault Vehicle - your Scouts inside lose nothing at all by remaining inside it. If you are going to run Scouts, it can be worth the 55 Points to give them an extra 7, T6 Wounds that come attached to a Heavy Bolter and a Frag Missile. Additionally, a Land Speeder Storm is a Vehicle with CP-free Outflank. Which is great for coming in off the side of the board, and using the Assault Vehicle rule to drop 5 Scouts on an Objective...Which would be great if Scouts had Objective Secured, but they don't. So it's probably not worth it. Sad face.

Spoiler: Aircraft

Show

Stormhawk Interceptor: Sole use is make Storm Speeders totally irrelavent. Without Hover Jet, it's really important to plan ahead and make sure you pivot your model during the Movement phase. Otherwise just shoot all your good weapons at good targets, and you can't really go wrong with a Stormhawk. They're very good models.

Stormtalon Gunship: Sole use is to make Storm Speeders totally irrelavent by being the exact same model, except better. Compared to the Stormhawk, the Stormtalon drops to T6, 10 Wounds (like a Storm Speeder), loses a weapon system, but can Hover Jet.

Stormraven Gunship: The most expensive model in the Codex. Because it's an AIRCRAFT, that also functions as a main battle tank. Similar to a Repulsor, for the same points, you could very easily get 4 or 5 smaller Vehicles with the same amount - and the same type - of weapons. However, in 9th Ed.'s meta, you have to remember that in a lot of cases, less is more, and you mostly come down to two game plans:

• More units on the board, gives greater board control. However, more units on the board gives your opponent better viability to score Secondary Kill Points/Victory Points. Especially if those Kill Points are Vehicles.
• Less units on the board, gives your opponents less VPs in the long run. In the short run, more of your firepower is concentrated into few units, so that if your opponent ever takes something out, even for a fractional amount of VPs, it hurts your army disproportionately.

Additionally, a Stormraven can Transport 12 Firstborn Infantry, and a single Dreadnought. As with Land Raiders previously, carrying 5 Heavy Infantry (Assault Terminators, Vanguard Veterans [with Jump Packs], and Wulfen - or 4 () Assault Centurions - is the way to go, since as Melee units, Assault Terminators and Assault Centurions don't really need to be on the board, unless they're in Melee, and riding in a Transport is a very good CP-free, Reinforcements-free way to get into your enemy's DZ on Turn 1, for a Turn 2 Charge that's actually way easier than coming in 9" away (i.e; From a table edge). Which actually means you can throw in two units of Vanguard Veterans sans Jump Packs (i.e; 10 models), since by being in your opponent's DZ anyway, it's not like you need the Jump Packs. Since a Stormraven does have Hover Jet, and on Turn 2, you don't have to have mandatory movement, and you can just hang out in your enemy's DZ. Having a Stormraven in your army, is the only reason you should ever have an Ironclad Contemptor Dreadnought.

Spoiler: Fortification

Show

Hammerfall Bunker: 175 Points for an immobile, T8, 14 Wounds VEHICLE. Also, it has BS4+. It has a Missile Launcher that has +2S on both Frag and Krak Missiles, and, in addition, it has a Heavy Bolter Array, that you should never, ever trade for a Heavy Flamer Array.
Nerf Alert: Heavy Bolter Array: The Hammerfall Bunker, can make a standard Heavy Bolter attack (3 shots) against every unit within line of sight and range, every time it shoots. It doesn't sound like much, especially because a Hammerfall is BS4+. But still, remember that Heavy Bolters do 2 Damage a pop, and being able to shoot every enemy unit on the board, is a pretty powerful ability. When you start putting two or even three Hammerfalls on the board, you will see some problems.

It needs repeating for the ones in the back:
One Hammerfall, is totally fine, in fact it might even be 'a bit ****'.
Two or Three Hammerfalls is when things start to get b0rked. Especially in a meta or on a board that restricts Obscuring Terrain pieces.

You missed the new Statagem for Chaplins which let them Inspire in a different phase. So there's no problem with them coming out of a drop pod, popping that stratagem, and giving the +2 to charge aura out.

[Adrastos42]

[Snip]
Heavy Bolter Array: The Hammerfall Bunker, can make a standard Heavy Bolter attack (3 shots) against every unit within line of sight and range, every time it shoots.
[Snip]

I'm suddenly imaging someone bringing like 10 of these to a big 40k-apocalypse game. They run out of time during the turn one shooting phase.

Huh, are they still updating datasheets for Apocalypse?

...

Maybe? A very quick look shows none of the new things for Marines have appeared, but Sisters got their Triumph of Saint Katherine etc. so they have been updated this year at least.

The one singular game of Apocalypse I played was very fun, I'll have to see if I can get a second one all this is resolved.

[Avaris]

I'm suddenly imaging someone bringing like 10 of these to a big 40k-apocalypse game. They run out of time during the turn one shooting phase.

Huh, are they still updating datasheets for Apocalypse?

...

Maybe? A very quick look shows none of the new things for Marines have appeared, but Sisters got their Triumph of Saint Katherine etc. so they have been updated this year at least.

The one singular game of Apocalypse I played was very fun, I'll have to see if I can get a second one all this is resolved.

I’m expecting either an update in the new year, or alongside a new release of the rules. It’s certainly not the priority right now, with the various new releases for main 40k over the next while, but it is mentioned as a way to play in the main rulebook, so I don’t think they’ll have dropped support entirely.

[Renegade Paladin]

Bah. Old school Apocalypse is the way to go. All day with a pitch in lunch and dinner, that's how you do Apocalypse. This over in three or four hours nonsense just isn't it.

[Blackhawk748]

Bah. Old school Apocalypse is the way to go. All day with a pitch in lunch and dinner, that's how you do Apocalypse. This over in three or four hours nonsense just isn't it.

Back in my day our Apocalypse games took 2 days, and one person's turn took 2 hours! And we had 8 people to a side! And we didn't have boards, we used the floor of the room!

[LansXero]

Just to once again point out how vastly our game experiences differ, we've ran 4 group battles. 5 vs 5, 1.25k points to a player, chess clock, 3.5 hours per team, regular 40k rules. Awesome stuff, no 'full day' nonsense, everyone rushed through their turns like clockwork.

[Renegade Paladin]

1250 points to a player? There's the problem. Go big or go home; we go for 40k of 40k when we can get the players.

[Cheesegear]

Just to once again point out how vastly our game experiences differ, we've ran 4 group battles. 5 vs 5, 1.25k points to a player, chess clock, 3.5 hours per team, regular 40k rules. Awesome stuff, no 'full day' nonsense, everyone rushed through their turns like clockwork.

Pretty much.
We usually run 4 vs. 4, since that's usually everyone who will participate; 3000 Points per player.

Each turn is 30 minutes.
10 minute break.
30 minute break.
20+ minutes setup/teardown.

You can finish an Apocalypse game with 5 turns, between 6-7 hours. Well within the timeframes of a business day.

Very quickly you realise a couple of things:
At that size game, a lot of **** in your army, is actually ****. Do the important stuff that actually matters, first.
So why play 3000 Points if you can't use 1/3 of your stuff? Wouldn't it make more sense to pare down to 2500, or 2000 per player? ...Shush, you.

Waiting for other players is a massive waste of time. You don't have to wait for your team mate to finish moving before you start. If another player is already engaged, and you want to target their units, too. Find something else to do until the player you want to talk to becomes available. Waiting to resolve one unit's shooting, when you have 10 other units to go, is a waste of time.

'Take your turn', in your opponent's turn. "It's like chess." Your opponents have 30 minutes to take their turn. Most of that time, they will not be interacting with you. You can actually decide what to do well in advance of your actual turn - you can even converse with your teammates! If you only start thinking about what to do, when that timer hits, and it's your turn, you will waste a lot of time. You should already know what to do when your turn rolls around.

[LeSwordfish]

1250 points to a player? There's the problem. Go big or go home; we go for 40k of 40k when we can get the players.

+1 - no point playing "apocalypse" if each individual person has fewer points than a normal game. The whole point of it is about taking lots of stuff.

To me, the value of New-Apocalypse over Old Apocalypse is:

• Can take more stuff in the same time. 3000pts isnt enough for my armoured company.
• Can be less disciplined with the same amount of stuff and time. Running through a 3k point turn in half an hour is doable, but not with a drink in one hand and a bowl of pretzels in the other - which is, to me, an appealing part of the Apocalypse atmosphere.
• Easy to pick up, so more people can join in without needing to know the rules or slowing people down. I think you could probably run a reasonable game of New-Apocalypse with two players who put their whole collections on the board, and a bunch of other people without mega-collections who take a detachment or two each, even if they never played either 40k or apocalypse before. Doing that with Old Apocalypse wouldn't be good, since the more granular 40k rules would take a while to pick up and play at scale.

I've only played one game (but it was a pretty big one... I need to post the pictures from it!) but what I found myself missing was the power of heroes - I would personally beef up Space Marine Captains etc to make them more powerful and capable, since that lets you tell small-scale individual narratives within the big game. At the moment heroes get a bit lost and don't achieve much by themselves.

[Avaris]

I've only played one game (but it was a pretty big one... I need to post the pictures from it!) but what I found myself missing was the power of heroes - I would personally beef up Space Marine Captains etc to make them more powerful and capable, since that lets you tell small-scale individual narratives within the big game. At the moment heroes get a bit lost and don't achieve much by themselves.

Yeah, it definitely diminishes characters a lot, particularly psykers, who are reliant on drawing the right cards to actually use a power. I maintain that it’s a better overall game system than base 40k, but base 40k delivers things Apocalypse cannot.

[Cheesegear]

Started a Building on a Budget for Space Marines:

Remembered that GW is whale-hunting.
Remembered that GW price-hiked.

...Oh.

How to Start a *New* Army in 9th Ed.

Get lucky, and hope that someone is selling the exact models you want on an auction site.
Learn how to strip paint.

[9mm]

I still find it funny that I backed into a space marine army though kill team. Though I wouldn't call that the budget option.

[Squark]

Speaking of Kill Team, I picked up the last SC! Deathwatch box at my FLGS, figuring I could finally pick up the Venerable Dreadnaught I need to build Murderfang and give Bjorn his other weapon options, and get a discounted Deathwatch Kill Team in the bargain. So, I have 11 Deathwatch Veterans (Anyone who complains about Artemis being Kitbashed into the Sergeant is not worth playing with). Any suggestions on how to build them?

[Adrastos42]

The new supplement is out... Tomorrow? I think? So it's probably worth waiting a few days before committing to builds.

[Squark]

The new supplement is out... Tomorrow? I think? So it's probably worth waiting a few days before committing to builds.

... GW needs to be more diverse when naming things. I meant the Kill team game. I probably whould have put the word roster in there or something.

[Adrastos42]

... GW needs to be more diverse when naming things. I meant the Kill team game. I probably whould have put the word roster in there or something.

Oh, right! Apologies, your post being about the kill team game is the most obvious interpretation in context now I've re-read it, but I guess I wasn't paying attention the first time.

I have no idea about Kill Team, but I did find Cheesegear's guide from 2018, part two of which discusses Deathwatch kill teams?

https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...6&postcount=47

https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...6&postcount=59

https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...&postcount=106

With the caveat that it's from 2018 so metas and rules may have changed entirely.

Edit: Oh hey, Cheese did a much more recent and comprehensive guide to them as well:
https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24478813&postcount=843

[Cheesegear]

Guide to Deathwatch (2020)

Spoiler: Deathwatch Detachment

Show

Refresher
Chapter Tactics - Xenos Hunters: Deathwatch gain re-roll 1s to hit in Melee only, vs. TYRANIDS, AELDARI, ORK, NECRONS or T'AU EMPIRE units. Additionally, after Deployment, gain re-roll 1s to wound vs. any Battlefield Role you choose. At least the second half of Deathwatch Chapter Tactics isn't opponent-specific, and you're not totally useless when you come up against opposing Imperium or Chaos armies.

Non-Codex Compliant Chapter: A Deathwatch Detachment can't include:

• Troops. Tactical Squads
• Elites. Sternguard or Scouts
• Fast Attack. Assault Squads, Bike Squads or Attack Bike Squads
• Heavy Support. Devastator Squads

The biggest loss here, is Devastators.
Nerf Alert: Centurions are fair game?

Additonally, DEATHWATCH CAPTAINS can't be made CHAPTER MASTERS.

Successor Chapters: There are no Deathwatch Successor Chapters.

Special-Issue Ammunition: All Codex Supplement: Deathwatch units - not Codex: Space Marines units - have Special-Issue Ammunition (SIA), which allows you to choose a modifier to add to your weapon when you choose each model to shoot (yes, model, not unit):

• Dragonfire Bolts. Ignores benefits of Cover.
• Hellfire Rounds. Against non-VEHICLE, and non-TITANIC units, gain +1 to wound. All SIA weapons are only S4, so this goes a long way to having your own Infantry be able to take out heavier Troops like Plague Marines and Custodes.
• Kraken Bolts. +6" range, and increase the AP by -1. This turns your Boltguns, into Bolt Rifles. Primaris Marines? ...Get outta here!
• Vengeance Rounds. +1 Damage. This is a massive, huge buff to Boltguns, and a massive buff to Stalker-Pattern Boltguns. This is big on SPBs, because what good is Damage if you can't wound in the first place? This is in addition to Stalkers being one of the better weapons anyway, because of the flat-2 Damage.

---

If every model in your army has the DEATHWATCH Keyword, gain Mission Tactics.

Mission Tactics: When you have a DEATHWATCH Detachment, do not use the normal for Combat Doctrines. Instead, at the start of each Battle Round, you can choose which Doctrine is active. However, each Doctrine is only usable a number of times per Battle:
Devastator - 1 use per game,
Tactical - 2 uses,
Assault - 3 uses.
This is a non-ability. Since Heavy weapons, remain Heavy weapons, and are still the best weapons in your army. It's extremely unlikely that you wont be using Devastator Doctrine on Turn 1 anyway. However, the big change involves being able to use Assault Doctrine on Turn 2. There are many, many, many instances where this would be extremely useful.

Spoiler: Deathwatch Stratagems

Show

Death to the Alien!: In the Fight phase, one of your units gains +1 Attacks vs TYRANIDS, AELDARI, ORK, NECRONS or T'AU EMPIRE units. Thankfully, this is an optional Stratagem, and not a mandatory ability that you pay points and opportunity costs for.

Prognosticating Volley: A unit in the Shooting phase may ignore any or all hit roll and Ballistic Skill modifiers against an AELDARI unit. Solid. Since you don't ignore positive modifiers, you get to choose what you are and aren't affected by.

Synaptic Severance: Shooting or Fight phase. Against a TYRANIDS SYNAPSE unit, a '6' to hit automatically wounds. Fairly self-explanatory. Remember that Tyranids use Tyranid Primes and Zoanthropes, so you have to use Eliminators to ignore Look Out, Sir!.

Adaptive Tactics (2): Once per Battle. If a WATCH MASTER is on the Battlefield, change the Battlefield Role under Xenos Hunters. Nice. Destroy all your opponent's Heavy Support? ...Now what? ...Change the Role to Elites or Troops, and you're back in business.

Atonement Through Honour: In your opponent's Charge phase, a unit that contains a [Black Shield] can perform a Heroic Intervention.

Sanction of the Black Vault: Army List. If your Warlord is a Deathwatch model, a Deathwatch 'Sergeant' in your army may be given one of a few Relics. Marked with '*'.

A Vigil Unmatched: Army List. Your non-named Deathwatch Warlord gets a second Deathwatch Warlord Trait.

Stem the Green Tide (2): When an ORK unit declares a Charge, Overwatch. Additionally, if the targeted unit suffers any casualties from the Overwatch, they get -2 on their Charge roll.

Priority Doctrine Adoption: You may only use this Stratagem if you have a DEATHWATCH army. You choose a unit that can use any Combat Doctrine it wants that Round, whilst the rest of your army uses the one you really picked. Very useful.

Targeting Scramblers: After a T'AU EMPIRE unit has shot one of yours, remove all Markerlight counters from your unit. This either is, or isn't, a total waste of time. Your opponent shoots you with a bunch of Markerlights, taking time out of the game rolling to hit. Then you pay 1 CP to say 'That didn't happen.' ...So why did your opponent even bother rolling dice?

Overkill: Target NECRONS unit gets -1 to Reanimation Protocols from one of your unit's attacks.

Brotherhood of Veterans (2): Command phase. One Deathwatch unit in your army gains a Chapter Tactic or Successor Tactic of your choosing, instead of Xenos Hunters until the end of your turn.
(As a massive Deathwatch RPG nerd...YES! MORE OF EXACTLY THIS, PLEASE.)

• Dark Angels: ...No.
• White Scars: Veteran Bikers lose the ability to take Special weapons, in favour of taking Melee weapons. Bikers are now a Melee unit, which is exactly the kind of unit that White Scars are missing. But, you're Deathwatch. This is perfect.
• Space Wolves: Can be useful if you're running Vanguard Veterans and spamming Power Fists/Thunder Hammers/Heavy Thunder Hammers. But equally, you should be slingshotting Vanguard Veterans, and getting them Engaged in the first place.
• Imperial Fists: Extra hits with your Deathwatch Boltguns and ignore Light Cover? Yes.
• Crimson Fists: Extra hits with your Deathwatch Boltguns and +1 to hit vs. hordes? ...Yes. But not as applicable as Imperial Fists.
• Black Templars: If you aren't going to abuse the **** out of Veteran Bikers, use Righteous Zeal, and slingshot using The Beacon Angelis.
• Blood Angels: If you aren't going to abuse the **** out of Veteran Bikers, use Red Thirst, and slingshot using The Beacon Angelis.
• Flesh Tearers: The bonus-to-Charge from Blood Angels, is better. The re-roll-to-Charge bonus from Black Templars, is better.
• Iron Hands: Not that useful since BoV doesn't work in your opponent's turn. At least it works against Melee attacks?
• Ultramarines: Fall Back and Shoot is very good.
• Salamanders: Lose re-roll 1s to wound vs. Role, and gain one re-roll to wound vs. anything? #NotWorth.
• Raven Guard: BoV doesn't work in your opponent's turn.
• Successor Tactics: You only get to pick one, not two. No individual Successor Tactic is as good as a GW Chapter's.

Disruptive Launch: A JUMP PACK unit - or a Kill Team with Jump Pack model in it - can Fall Back and Shoot in the same turn. Baller.

Teleportarium: An INFANTRY, DREADNOUGHT or BIKER unit gains the Teleport Strike ability. Very strong Stratagem. However, remember that when targeting Infantry, Drop Pods can come down on Turn 1, and don't count towards Reinforcement limits. Putting a Dreadnought into Reinforcements sounds pretty good, except wait...
Brotherhood of Veterans would be broken with this if BoV didn't happen in the Command Phase. Instead, use Beacon Angelis and/or Veteran Bikers.

Relentless Assault: A BIKER unit - or a Kill Team with a Biker model in it - can Fall Back and Charge in the same turn.

Shroud Field (2): First Battle Round. A Corvus Blackstar is immune to ranged attacks unless it's the closest model to the attacker. Very good, since Turn 1 is usually the only turn that matters.

Clavis: Select an enemy VEHICLE within 1" of one a WATCH MASTER. The Vehicle takes D3 Mortal Wounds and gains Always Strikes Last until the end of the phase.

Special-Issue Loadout (2) An Infantry unit with Bolt weapons that do not have Special Issue Ammunition special rule, gain it, but their Type is changed to Heavy 1. Can not be used with Bolt Sniper Rifles - that's arguably what Banebolts of Eyrxia or Artificer Bolt Rounds are for.

Spoiler: Kill Team Specialisms

Show

Your army can't include multiple more than one Kill Team of the same type.

Aquila: For 25 Points, the unit can re-roll 1s to wound vs. two Battlefield Roles.

• KILL TEAM CASSIUS is automatically an AQUILA Kill Team, but does not count as being one. So, you can have two Aquila Kill Teams, so long as one of them is Kill Team Cassius. Except Kill Team Cassius is pretty bad.

Venator: Re-roll 1s to wound vs. Fliers and Fast Attack. If you already picked one of those Roles from Xenos Hunters, re-roll to wound against that Role - but still only rr1s vs. the other one.

Malleus: Re-roll 1s to wound vs. Heavy Support, Lords of War, and Dedicated Transports. If you picked one of those Roles from Xenos Hunters, re-roll to wound - but still only rr1s vs. the other two. For 35 Points, probably not worth it, unless you know your opponents are only Iron Hands players spamming Repulsors.

Dominatus: vs. Elites. Easy pick for 25 Points, since everyone has Elites.

Furor: vs. Troops. Literally everyone has Troops, even people who don't even run Battalions. There's a reason it's 35 Points.

Purgatus: vs. HQs. Got a lot of Sniper Attacks, do you? ...You actually might. PURGATUS ELIMINATORS are really strong until more Bodyguard units get added to the game.

Spoiler: Powers and Stuff

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Warlord Traits
1. A DEATHWATCH CORE unit within 6" can pick up a second Xenos Hunters Role.
2. Pick a Chapter-specific Warlord Trait from Codex: Space Marines. Replace all Chapter Keywords in that Warlord Trait with DEATHWATCH. If your Warlord has specific Heraldry to a Chapter, you must pick that Chapter. **** you, GW. I'll do what I want.
3. Aura 6". Command Phase. Choose an enemy unit on the board, your Warlord does not need line of sight. DEATHWATCH CORE units in the Aura 'ignore the benefits of cover' vs. that unit. Changing a new target every turn makes this extremely strong.
4. Aura 6". DEATHWATCH CORE or CHARACTER units in the Aura can perform Actions and make Ranged attacks in the same turn.
5. Your Warlord can take Adamantine Mantle, Master-Crafted Weapon or Digital Weapons in addition to any other Relic they may have. You still can't have the same Relic twice in your army.
6. Aura 6". DEATHWATCH CORE units re-roll Morale tests. In addition, per Command phase, one unit within range gains Objective Secured until your next turn.

Relics
The Beacon Angelis: Once per battle. During the Reinforcements phase, an INFANTRY or BIKER unit that did not arrive from Reinforcements this turn, and isn't still in Reinforcements, can be placed wholly within 6" of the bearer, and more than 9" away from enemy models. This is perfect for Jump Pack Characters who move 12" (+/- Advance) on Turn 1, and then slingshot one of your Melee units forwards. This is especially good with the Brotherhood of Veterans Stratagem, where you can pick up re-rolls to Charge (Black Templars) or +1 to Charge and to Wound (Blood Angels). Beacon Angelis is crazy good, and always has been in every edition.

Dominus Aegis: Replaces a Shield. Instead of giving yourself a 4+ Invulnerable (e.g; Storm Shield), the model gains an Aura 6" DEATHWATCH CORE and CHARACTER models gain 5+ Invulnerable.
'Replacing' a Storm Shield, means you do not gain the benefit of having a Storm Shield. You have a Dominus Aegis, not a Storm Shield.

Osseus Key: WATCH MASTER. Enemy Vehicles within 12" have -1 to hit and -1 Attack.

The Thief of Secrets: [Power Sword or Xenophase Blade]. It's a Xenophase Blade that deals 2 Damage to Xenos models, instead of 1. Hard numbers, The Burning Blade is way better, since it's S7, AP-5 and deals 2 Damage no matter the target. But, Thief of Secrets ignores Invulnerables. So it's meta-dependent. But seriously, The Burning Blade is so ****ing good.

The Tome of Ectoclades: Once per battle. Select a Datasheet - not Battlefield Role - in your opponent's army; Until your next turn, gain Aura 6": DEATHWATCH [B]CORE units gain re-rolls to wound that Datasheet.

Adamantine Mantle: Ignore Wounds (5+). Goes great with a Storm Shield.

Master-Crafted Weapon*: Choose a non-Relic, that isn't already a Master-Crafted Weapon (e.g; Master-Crafted Auto Bolt Rifle). Give it +1 Damage. Master-Crafted Siege Drills is pretty lulz.

Digital Weapons*: Each time the model Fights, make an additional special attack; If the special attack hits, deal a Mortal Wound.

Artificer Armour*: 2+ Save. 5+ Invulnerable. It's Terminator Armour, that isn't. Means you get to ride in Vehicles and stuff without taking extra space.

The Blackweave Shroud: +1 Toughness, and gain Ignore Mortal Wounds (4+). Oh wow.

Spear of the First Vigil: Vigil Spear. It's Rapid Fire 2, and deals 3 Damage in Melee, instead of D3.

The Soul Fortress: LIBRARIAN. The model can ignore any and all modifiers to Psychic Tests. Additionally, Psychic Hood range is 24". Holy **** that's so good. It's a shame you can only take like two Relics in your army. This is by no means bad. Not at all. It's just that other Relics are Just Better (yep, better than this), and thus have priority.

Banebolts of Eryxia*: A Bolt weapon of the bearer's choice gains an alternate fire mode: One shot. S6, AP-2, 3D. Eliminator Sergeants ignore Look Out, Sir! Just thought that should be mentioned for no reason.

Vhorkan-Pattern Auspicator: Aura 6". DEATHWATCH [B]CORE models gain +1 to hit vs. models with FLY.
The fluff for this has some of the dumbest words I've ever seen.

Artificer Bolt Cache*: The bearer's Bolt weapons gain the Special Issue Ammunition ability. Even a Devastator Centurion Sergeant with two Heavy Bolters and a Hurricane Bolter? I don't think you've thought this through.

Eye of Abiding: The bearer can ignore any or all modifiers to his Weapon Skill or Ballistic Skill (you know, from something like a Power Fist or Thunder Hammer). On an unmodified 'would [sic] roll' of 6, the attack ignores Invulnerable saves. So you're telling me that a Deathwatch Captain can have a Thunder Hammer or Power Fist, with no negs to hit, that has a chance to ignore Invulnerable saves? Pack it up. Go home. We're done here.

*Can be given to Sergeants, via Sanction of the Black Vault.

Xenopurge Discpline
1. WC6, 18". If target unit Overwatches, it hits on a 5+. Gains Always Strike First, and gains +1 to hit with Melee attacks. Slingshot with Beacon Angelis. Do it.
2. WC6, 18". Target DEATHWATCH INFANTRY or BIKER unit gains Ignore Wounds (5+).
3. WC7, 18". Target unit gains -1 Attacks, and can only declare Charges against the closest target.
4. WC6, Aura 9". Roll a 6 for each enemy model within range. Those models' units take Mortal Wounds. (The only Witchfire, for Codicier Natorian, if you want him)
5. WC6, 12". If target DEATHWATCH INFANTRY neither Shoots, Charges or Fights (perhaps it's performing an Action), your opponent can't target them with ranged attacks in their turn unless your unit is the closest target, or, your opponent is within 12".
6. WC7, 18". Target CHARACTER takes a Mortal Wound, and reduce the range of that Character's Auras by 3". If the result of the Psychic test used to manifest this Power, was greater than the target's Leadership, turn their Auras off, instead.

Secondary Objectives
If you have a DEATHWATCH Army, you can choose one of the following, instead of one of your normal Secondaries:

The Long Vigil (Battlefield Supremacy)
Start of turn. If there are no enemy units - excluding AIRCRAFT - and, at least one DEATHWATCH unit in your Deployment Zone, gain 5 VPs.
Can't be scored in Round 1.

Cull Order (Purge the Enemy) ...Jesus.
After Deployment, your opponent chooses a Battlefield Role from their army, then you choose one, then your opponent chooses a second.
End of Battle. Gain 5 VPs per Role, if you destroyed every model in your opponent's army from that Role.

Cripple Stronghold (Shadow Operations)
After Deployment, your opponent chooses an Objective Marker.

(Action): At the start of your Movement phase, DEATHWATCH INFANTRY can take a turd on the opponent's Objective. It takes until the start of your next Command phase. Gain 6 VPs each time you manage to pull it off.
This Secondary is ****ed, because the Action can only be performed if you're already on it at the start of your turn. As opposed to taking the Action at the end of the Movement phase. This Action is awful. Never pick. Especially because your opponent is going to obviously pick the Objective that they can castle on, which means you'll never, ever achieve this Objective if your opponent isn't made of straw.

Suffer Not the Alien (No Mercy, No Respite)
Score one, whole, VP every time you destroy TYRANIDS, AELDARI, ORK, NECRONS or T'AU EMPIRE unit.
Ork Player: "Yeah, in order to prevent my opponent automatically picking Thin Their Ranks, I just wont play a horde. There are other army builds that make Tyranids and Orks, etc. work."
Deathwatch: "...Sure, buddy."
Only downside to this Objective is that it's Faction-specific. AGENTS OF THE IMPERIUM, can't contribute.

Spoiler: Kill Teams

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All KILL TEAM units are Troops. Remember that Deathwatch units still have the Combat Squads rule, which allows them to split into units of 5 if they have the maximum of 10 models.
KILL TEAM CASSIUS only has 9 models, and can Combat Squad. But that's why they're special...And also they're bad.

Mixed Units:

• Toughness. When targeted, your unit uses the majority Toughness of the models in the unit. When tied, the controlling player chooses what the unit's Toughness is.
• Keywords. Everything makes sense. Except for when it explicitly comes to terrain rules, all models in the unit count as INFANTRY, even if the unit contains BIKERS.

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Proteus Kill Team: Deathwatch Veterans. Can include Terminators, Veteran Bikers and Vanguard Veterans. The major point of contention here, is that by using Combat Squads, you can effectively pick up Veteran Bikers in the Troops slot. That is, three Wound, T5 models with Objective Secured, with Twin Boltguns. Very, very strong Kill Team, if only because of Bikes effectively being made Troops.

• If the unit contains any Vanguard Veterans, it gains the MELTA BOMBS Keyword. Which, again, leads to Deathwatch Veterans (x5), Vanguard Veteran, Veteran Bikers (x4) being pretty good. However, in order to qualify as BIKERS, a whole unit must be Bikers, and that's what will allow for White Scars' Lightning Assault...In the Troops slot...With Objective Secured.

Fortis Kill Team: Intercessors. Can include Assault Intercessors, Outriders and Hellblasters. With Deathwatch Veterans having 2 Attacks each, they are on full parity with Primaris Marines. Intercessors do not Deathwatch Boltguns. Assault Intercessors are not even close to being the same as Vanguard Veterans. Hellblasters have dropped out of the meta. Leaving only Outriders to be the only effective part of this Kill Team. However, before you get Outriders in the Troops slot, you have to take the Intercessors first...Except there's no point in doing that. Horrific use of Primaris Marines within the Deathwatch.

Indomitor Kill Team: Heavy Intercessors. Can include Aggressors, Inceptors and Eradicators. Using Combat Squads, you can get some phenomenal units in the Troops (Objective Secured) slot.

Spectrus Kill Team: Infiltrators. Can include Incursors, Reivers and Eliminators. Currently, this is the only way to get units of 5 Eliminators...In the Troops slot. Jesus. Interestingly, you can split your Infiltrators (one model into the 'other' squad) which allows you to spread out your Omni-Scramblers for the same points cost. Pretty good. However, being that this is a Phobos unit, nobody's Boltguns are any good. They don't have SIA, and they're not Bolt Rifles, either. This is all mostly terrible. Lots of gimmicks to be found using this unit and its various Keywords. But it's not actually an effective unit.

Spoiler: Deathwatch Units

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HQ

Watch Master: One per army. Still, he comes with the normal Chapter Master Auras 6": DEATHWATCH CORE get re-roll 1s to hit. Additionally, one DEATHWATCH CORE or CHARACTER unit gets to re-roll all their hits until your next turn. As far as options go...He has none. He comes stock with a Vigil Spear and that's all you get. Rapid Fire 1, S4, AP-1, 2D. Bearing in mind that it does have access to SIA, and you can make it AP-2 or D3. In Melee, it's a Force Sword, which isn't bad at all. However, however, a Vigil Spear doesn't count as a Bolt weapon (yet), and so you can't get Bolter Discipline with it, so that's kind of lame. Finally, he has a 2+ save, which is neat.

Watch Captain Artemis: CAPTAIN. He has one move. Once per game, he can chuck a Stasis Grenade 6". Roll a 2+ and deal D6 Mortal Wounds. Using Command Re-Roll, you can re-roll to hit, sure. But the Mortal Wounds? Can't re-roll that. Pay points to miss. Pay points to fail. Terrible. However, his model is amazing and you should use it to make many conversions of cooler, better models. Having this dude count as your Captain for the Detachment would be real bad.

Chaplain Cassius: PRIEST, CHAPLAIN. A Chaplain-on-foot, who has +1 to Inspire, and his Crozius has an extra AP. Given that he's on foot, and the Chapter that he's in, he really would prefer running Catechism of Fire, or Recitation of Focus.
Designer's Note: The Codex itself, tells you that if you include Chaplain Cassius in your army, you shouldn't include Primaris Marines in your army. Wow. Did you just read that!? GW told you not to buy Primaris Marines. Bizarre.

Codicier Natorian: LIBRARIAN. The Battle-Psyker. Every time he manifests Smite or a Witchfire Power, he has +1 to manifest. Additionally, his Force Sword has an extra AP. That's it.

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Captain: Regular, Firstborn Captains (on foot), can pick up a Xenophase Blade. Don't really bother, since they're not as good as Thunder Hammer or Power Fist...Unless your meta is insane with Harlequin players, and to a lesser extent, Daemons.

Lieutenants: Due to the way Xenos Hunters works, and how you can just choose to have rr1s to wound, and the various ways of how you can change it. Lieutenants aren't really neccessary in a Deathwatch Detachment.

As previously mentioned, any HQ with a Jump Pack (or Bike) will do nicely, because The Beacon Angelis is a fairly unstoppable gimmick. Until or unless it gets nerfed with 'Can't be used in Round 1', you should have a Jump Pack'd HQ.

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Troops

Deathwatch Veterans: Two Wounds and two Attacks each, at 20 Points...Doesn't that just make them Intercessors? Except not terrible? ...Yes! They come stock with a Deathwatch Boltgun (SIA) and Power Sword for +3 Points (23 Points, base). Except you can get rid of the Power Sword for an Astartes Chainsword for free, instead. So they are Intercessors and Assault Intercessors at the same time? ...Yes! ...But they can neither shoot or fight twice. Sad face. Mainly, with Deathwatch Boltguns, you're going to switch between +6", AP-1 (i.e; 'Bolt Rifles'), or +1 Damage. +1 to wound off of Hellfire Rounds, even vs. T5, is the same modifier as AP-1. But, because Kraken Bolts also give +6" range, that makes your Rapid Fire and Bolter Discipline, slightly stronger. Any model can switch their DW.Boltgun and Power Sword for:

• Deathwatch Shotgun. Fantastic! Amazing. Good job...Except they're extremely short range. Brutal out of a Drop Pod. Being free, is really, really good. In comparison to another thing, coming up.
• Stalker-Pattern Boltgun. Heavy 1, S4, AP-2, 2D. Yep. That's the one. Just like an Intercessor. However, unlike an Intercessor, Deathwatch units get SIA. Which means these guys are actually AP-3, or 3D. And just like everyone else, Deathwatch benefit from Combat Doctrines, and surprise, Heavy weapons are really, really good in any Space Marine army. If you're going to be Heavy 1 anyway, it's not a bad idea to give the Watch Sergeant Banebolts of Eryxia. That being said, Stalker Boltguns are not Sniper Rifles. Eliminators still have a place, even in a Deathwatch army, even though they don't even have SIA.
• 'Any 2 items you want.' From the Space Marines' list; This means Melee Weapons, Pistols, Combi-Weapons, Special Weapons and Storm Shields. Bear in mind that in the Deathwatch, Combi-Weapons (not including Storm Bolters) have the word 'Deathwatch' tacked on the front (e.g; Deathwatch Combi-Grav), so DW.Combi-Weapons have SIA. In what remains poor editing - and has existed for multiple editions - Deathwatch Veterans still retain the ability to trade their Deathwatch Boltgun, for a Deathwatch Boltgun. So at the very least, you can always trade your Power Sword for an Astartes Chainsword, and keep your Deathwatch Boltgun. That being said, because you're starting with a DW.Boltgun, Special Weapons are half-price, so equipping all of your Veterans with Grav-Guns and Chainswords (or Storm Shields) is absolutely a thing you can do.
• Watch Sergeants can take a Xenophase Blade. Melee isn't really where base-Veterans want to be. They look cool. But mechanically they aren't necessary. Unless Harlequins. Additionally, if the Watch Sergeant doesn't have a Storm Shield, they can take a Combat Shield in addition to their other two pieces of wargear.

Up to 4 Veterans can replace their DW.Boltgun and Power Sword for a Heavy weapon. Deathwatch are severely limited in their Heavy weapons choices. Especially since they don't have access to Tactical Squads, Scouts, Sternguard or Devastators. Where else can you get INFANTRY Heavy Bolters and Missile Launchers, if not with Deathwatch Veterans? Then again, you can just stack your unit with Special weapons. But, we do have to talk about 'em:

• Deathwatch Frag Cannon: You can't take Grav-Cannons. Is this the best you've got, then? ...No! It's short range and the fact that it costs 15 Points means that two Grav-Guns would be better. Hell, why not just give all your Deathwatch Veterans Grav-Guns?
• Infernus Heavy Bolter: Y'know...It'd be better if you just picked a Heavy Bolter, straight up, for less points.

• Heavy Thunder Hammer: For every 5 models in the unit, one model can replace their DW.Boltgun and Power Sword with one, which is a Thunder Hammer with an extra AP, and an extra Damage...When it comes to Damage, you really want to be looking at 3 or 6. 4 Damage is...Sub-optimal. You can probably use the Heavy Thunder Hammers for some cool conversions. But they're not actually that good.

• 0-1 Black Shield. For +5 Points over a regular Veteran, a Black Shield is WS2+, and so is really good with a Heavy Thunder Hammer. However, do make a note that if a Black Shield is equipped with two Melee weapons, his Attacks is increase to 4. So he's actually better with a regular Thunder Hammer/Power Fist, and a Chainsword. That being said, a Black Shield with a pair of Lightning Claws will have 6 Attacks. But once again, being in Melee isn't really where Veterans want to be, unless you're doing something with Drop Pods. You could place them in Reinforcements. But, at 9 Power for only 5 models, you're probably making a mistake.

If playing a Power game, just call everything a Proteus Kill Team. For some reason, calling a unit of Deathwatch Veterans a 'Proteus Kill Team' gives them -2 Power somehow. They're still Troops, because all Kill Teams are Troops. Someone's really dumb.

Kill Team Cassius: This Proteus Kill Team is...Terrible. Mostly because it isn't a Proteus Kill Team. It has the SMOKESCREEN Keyword which is...Something.

• Watch Sergeant; DW. Boltgun How do you not have a second weapon? At least a Chainsword? Come on.
• Veteran; Plasma Pistol, Power Sword Yep. You don't know what you're doing. Go home.
• Veteran; DW.Boltgun, Astartes Chainsword It's a bad sign when the Space Wolf is the most intelligent one in the Team.
• Veteran; DW.Combi-Melta Where's your OTHER WEAPON!? DID YOU LOSE IT?
• Veteran; Deathwatch Frag Cannon. The only thing worse than running 4 Frag Cannons, is running only one.
• Terminator; Deathwatch Heavy Flamer, Meltagun, Power Fist, DW.Teleport Homer. You're clocking close to 50 Points on a single model. At least he synergises with the Iron Hand? Kind of?
• Veteran Biker; DW.Twin Boltgun, Power Sword. Good to know that you can't **** up Bikers. And in fact because he has a Twin Deathwatch Boltgun (SIA), he's even better than a regular Biker. Shame he's one of the only good models in the entire Team.
• Vanguard Veteran; Lightning Claws (Pair), Jump Pack. A Storm Shield would've been better. Hey, since this is a Vanguard Veteran, shouldn't the unit gain the MELTA BOMBS Keyword? Oh...No? I'll go **** myself for reading the rules, I suppose.
• Vanguard Veteran; Hand Flamer, Astartes Chainsword, Jump Pack. *headdesk* And you left your MELTA BOMBS at home, too, I suppose?
• +25 Points for AQUILA Specialism.

So, for all that terribleness, you save ~20 Points, by getting models that are terrible and bad. A regular Proteus Kill Team is minimum Power 7 (Deathwatch Veterans by themselves are Power 9? What?). Kill Team Cassius is Power 3...Wait...Hang on...Did you spot it? ...This Kill Team only has 9 models in it. So that's weird way to use Combat Squads.
*Laughs in hysterically bad*

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Elites

Deathwatch Terminator Squad: Like normal Terminators, but with the following changes:

• 3 models, regardless of the size of the unit, can take Heavy weapons.
• Can actually replace their Power Fists for any Power Weapon for less points.
• Can mix between Shootynators and Assault Terminators.

Not great. Main use for Deathwatch Terminators is for jamming them into Proteus Kill Teams for a 3-Wound model with a Storm Shield. Or to put Assault Cannons into a Deathwatch Veteran squad.

Vanguard Veterans: In addition to their normal wargear, they can now take Heavy Thunder Hammers. As with Deathwatch Veterans, a 4-Damage weapon operates in a weird no-Wounds-land, where it's too good to be used normally, but it's not good enough to be used where it would really matter. Besides, you're better off paying 1 more Point to have a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield.

Company Veterans:
Can take any normal wargear. But don't have the oppurtunity cost of losing Deathwatch Boltguns.
Any way you equip Deathwatch Veterans that doesn't involve Deathwatch-specific wargear, can be done with Company Veterans, but with the Bodyguard rule. Also you gain access to COMMAND SQUAD, which is something to consider. Supplement: Deathwatch, is not a Codex. The good things from Codex: Space Marines, are still good.

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Fast Attack

Veteran Bike Squad: Non-CORE. When did Bikers stop being Core? Why? What's the Narrative? Twin Boltgun. Instead of 2 Special weapons, the whole squad can be equipped with Power Weapons. This makes Veteran Bikers really strong using Brotherhood of Veterans to pick up Lightning Assault (White Scars Chapter Tactics) to make a Turn 1 Charge. Very, very good. Can be accompanied by a Veteran Attack Bike. Since you're Advancing and Charging, it's not like you can use the Twin Boltguns on the front anyway, and it's the same if you took Outriders, instead with their AP-1 Twin Bolt Rifles...You can't use 'em anyway. Multi-Meltas are always good, especially when the rest of the squad doesn't have Special weapons (e.g; Grav-Guns). Once again, it's hard to tell where Veteran Bikers fit in, because for 0 Points you can make the models Troops, as long as you take a unit of Deathwatch Veterans, too. Which you will. Also, Proteus Kill Teams gain the CORE Keyword, so **** you, GW. Your Codex makes no sense.

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Flier

Corvus Blackstar: T7 and 14 Wounds makes this a flying Tank, except it also has all the usual benefits of being an AIRCRAFT (e.g; -1 to hit as standard). It's really, really good at killing hordes, with its Twin Assault Cannon, 2*2D3 Heavy Bolters with Blast, and optional Hurricane Bolter. Unfortunately, if you paid attention to the Codex: Space Marines Guide, you know that hordes aren't really that important, and dealing massive amounts of 1 Damage, isn't actually that good. Even if your opponent is playing Orks or Tyranids, you're likely to win anyway, because you're ****ing Deathwatch, and how do you lose against Xenos armies that don't even have a Codex yet? Luckily, Stormstrike Missile Launchers are free, and so is the Twin Lascannon, and Hurricane Bolter is optional...And now your Blackstar is good for chunking down Vehicles. Additionally, in the Movement phase, if the Blackstar moves over an enemy unit, roll a 6 for each model in the unit (to a max. of 10d6); Each success is a Mortal Wound. This is very strong if your opponent has used Concealed Positions or similar to pick up board control, and you can very easily move over a unit. It only has two weapons (and optional third), so the reason it's so expensive is because it's also a Transport. It can Transport 12 Firstborn models, with the usual stipulations on Jump Pack and Terminator models*. Additionally, a Corvus Blackstar is the only Transport in the game that can carry BIKERS, which sounds pretty cool, until you remember that Bikes have Twin Deathwatch Boltguns and would like to be on the board. Not least because Veteran Bikers are equipped with Melee weapons, and by using Brotherhood of Veterans, they can grab Lightning Assault (White Scars), which allows them to Advance and Charge in the same turn...Point is, don't Transport Bikers. Do a Turn 1 Charge, instead. Finally, remember that Corvus Blackstars are exceptionally strong - compared to say, Stormravens - because of Shroud Field, which means that they can rarely ever be shot at, on Turn 1 if you go second, which allows you to keep the Blackstar alive, and the valuable unit inside. Additionally, for +5 Points, the Blackstar can have one of the following:

• Gains Ignores Cover, or
• +1 save vs. Attacks made by enemy AIRCRAFT. Solid choice in an Aeldari meta. Also you're Deathwatch. Win more, amirite?

*Nerf Alert. CENTURIONS, being INFANTRY, only take up a single space in a Blackstar because copy-paste rules don't account for Centurions being part of the army roster. Expect this to be rectified.

[Squark]

So, here's the beginnings of a roster

Spoiler

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Deathwach Veteran Gunner (Heavy) with Frag Cannon -21 points
Deathwatch Veteran Gunner (Demolitions) with Frag Cannon -21 points
Deathwatch Veteran Gunner with Infernus Heavy bolter -18 points (Look, the combi-heavy flamer makes me smile, okay?)
Deathwatch Veteran (Veteran) with heavy thunder hammer -21 points
Black Shield (Zealot) with Power sword and Storm Shield -21 points
Deathwatch Veteran (Sniper) with Combi-plasma -17 points
Deathwatch Veteran with combi-plasma -17 points
Watch Sergeant (Leader) with Power Maul(?) and storm shield -21 points
Deathwatch Veteran with Shotgun -15 points
Deathwatch Veteran with Shotgun -15 points
Deathwatch Veteran -14 points

(Artemis will be kitbashed into either the Sergeant or Black shield).

Any suggestions?