Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

[Razgriez]

....
If Deathwatch 'Chapters' can use Successor Tactics, then you don't even need to paint your models black-and-silver.
If you're a Firstborn Grognard, or you just don't want to buy new models, Deathwatch is for you. You may however, have to start converting your models to make them look more better than regular Tactical Marines.
....

Oh hey, the answer to my first post in this current thread from several pages ago.

As for the conversion issue, well, that admittedly is going to be a bit tougher, since most of my old Tacticals are 3rd edition or older models. Still, it is now definitely a debate between adding some Veteran White and Gold to my Ultramarine Firstborn, or learning how to repaint them Deathwatch. Or Salamanders, because these were Tactical Marines back from the good ol' bad days when GW's views of Tactical marine box sets was "You're getting 7 Bolters, a Sgt with Backpack Banner-pole/bolt pistol/chain sword, a Missile Launcher, and a Flamer, and you'll like it! And if you don't, please buy a blister-pack of Special Weapon marines for $5-10 bucks"

So TL:DR on Unit composition for DW:

If you're Pro-Firstborn: Enjoy being made Primaris with a variable profile Bolter! And arguably better since your Bolters will always be customizable each turn, and not a case of asking/begging your opponent if you may ignore WYSIWYG and Proxy your (Heavy) Bolt Rifles as Auto-Bolters(Hellstorm)/Stalker(Executor) Bolt Rifle. Plus you still have full access to all of DW unique equipment.

If you're Pro-Primaris: You get to resurrect (partially) the mixed-unit and Elite/FastAttack/Heavy choice as Troops Cheese of yesteryear!

This... actually may still be terrifying good in general depending on the DW Tax associated with Primaris unit or not.
Fortis KT are a "nope" possibly (until GW inevitably makes it so that SIA also applies to Bolt-Rifles and overtaxing Firstborn on points or dropping Primaris points down, because GW Marketing has taken over all aspects of Space Marine Lore/Design/Rules/Etc to sell more kits), but Spectrus I can see for early game Objective Pressure. Deployment advantages, anti-reserve, and you can take a few Primaris Banshees Reivers to scare away any unit trying to push an objective. Otherwise, yea, 5 Eliminators with the already good Early Cap Infiltrators will be your standard most likely

Indomitor does well because it does the thing that Gravis units do well in general: being Tanky Beatsticks with a nice array of stats. Being able to take more of those Beatsticks as troops? Why yes, yes I do want to have these 5 Heavy Intercessors with Executor Bolt Rifles backing up the 2nd half of the squad of Aggressor/Eradicator/Inceptors that are now pushing the objective to secure it.

[Wraith]

It's a great guide CG and it's made me strongly question what army I want to collect next, but unfortunately there's this:

Furor: vs. Troops. Literally everyone has Troops, even people who don't even run Battalions. There's a reason it's 35 Points.

I know what the word 'furor' means, but said in a British accent it's pronounced the same as Fuhrer and.... yeah. I can't imagine why GW didn't catch this, it might make things a bit awkward in polite conversation.

[Squark]

So... Stormwolf transports can carry 16 models, and unlike Land Raider crusaders, have tons of multi-damage weapons. And Savage Strike is a 1 CP tactic that gives a unit of 5 models or less +1 to wound on the charge*, and doesn't say CORE.


Does this make Space Wolves Assault Centurions as good as they seem im my head?

*2 CP for 6+ models.

[JNAProductions]

So... Stormwolf transports can carry 16 models, and unlike Land Raider crusaders, have tons of multi-damage weapons. And Savage Strike is a 1 CP tactic that gives a unit of 5 models or less +1 to wound on the charge*, and doesn't say CORE.


Does this make Space Wolves Assault Centurions as good as they seem im my head?

*2 CP for 6+ models.

It's actually far better on lower-strength attacks.

S10 means you're wounding most things on 2+ already, and for the few things you wound on a 3+, it's only a 25% increase.

Whereas if you're using S4 Assault Intercessors against a T8 Knight, you go from 6+ to 5+, it doubles your damage.

[Squark]

It's actually far better on lower-strength attacks.

S10 means you're wounding most things on 2+ already, and for the few things you wound on a 3+, it's only a 25% increase.

Whereas if you're using S4 Assault Intercessors against a T8 Knight, you go from 6+ to 5+, it doubles your damage.

Except those Assault Intercessors were paste before they got to attack, because the Knight is almost certainly the one who charged. Still, you're right. Probably better used on lower-strength, high volume attacks.

[JNAProductions]

Except those Assault Intercessors were paste before they got to attack, because the Knight is almost certainly the one who charged. Still, you're right. Probably better used on lower-strength, high volume attacks.

Assault Intercessors are cheap enough to have a couple squads-plus they're troops!

But yeah-+1 to [ROLL] is better the worse the original target number is.
Same with rerolling all.

Not the same with reroll 1s-that's a flat 7/6 improvement on any d6 roll.

[Forum Explorer]

Except those Assault Intercessors were paste before they got to attack, because the Knight is almost certainly the one who charged. Still, you're right. Probably better used on lower-strength, high volume attacks.

I think Blood Claws are still better than Assault Intecessors.

[Squark]

I think Blood Claws are still better than Assault Intecessors.

I'm still on the fence. Headstrong makes screens a pain, and taking a WGPL to disable headstrong wipes out the savings and opens you up to all the extra maluses for units above 5 models, even if you do get to fit a second power fist in the unit. Plus, Berserk Charge doesn't work for Sucessor Chapters or if you get charged or use counter-charge.

Assault Intercessors -105 points
-Power fist

Blood Claws -128 points
-Powerfist, WGPL with Powerfist.

The 2nd Powerfist is good, but you pay more points, get 1 fewer attack with it, and add a host of extra problems.

[Forum Explorer]

I'm still on the fence. Headstrong makes screens a pain, and taking a WGPL to disable headstrong wipes out the savings and opens you up to all the extra maluses for units above 5 models, even if you do get to fit a second power fist in the unit. Plus, Berserk Charge doesn't work for Sucessor Chapters or if you get charged or use counter-charge.

Assault Intercessors -105 points
-Power fist

Blood Claws -128 points
-Powerfist, WGPL with Powerfist.

The 2nd Powerfist is good, but you pay more points, get 1 fewer attack with it, and add a host of extra problems.

For Bloodclaws, I'd take them in a squad of 10. It's no worse than being at 6, and you get the extra benefits of having some more models. Also I think when you have 10 you can take extra special weapons, but I'm not 100% on that.

[Squark]

For Bloodclaws, I'd take them in a squad of 10. It's no worse than being at 6, and you get the extra benefits of having some more models. Also I think when you have 10 you can take extra special weapons, but I'm not 100% on that.

The second special weapon is unlocked at 15 Blood Claw models (Wolf Guard don't count). The special weapon also replaces your chainsword, which is not great.

If you're going to take 10 Blood Claws, though...


Blood Claws Pack -200 points
-8 Blood Claws
-Blood Claw Pack Leader with Powerfist
-Wolf Guard Pack Leader with Powerfist

Why not just take two Assault Intercessor packs? The only relevant strategem scale with unit size, so maxing put the unit seems pointless.

[Forum Explorer]

The second special weapon is unlocked at 15 Blood Claw models (Wolf Guard don't count). The special weapon also replaces your chainsword, which is not great.

If you're going to take 10 Blood Claws, though...


Blood Claws Pack -200 points
-8 Blood Claws
-Blood Claw Pack Leader with Powerfist
-Wolf Guard Pack Leader with Powerfist

Why not just take two Assault Intercessor packs? The only relevant strategem scale with unit size, so maxing put the unit seems pointless.

Because you can't put Primaris in a Stormwolf.

[Cheesegear]

Spoiler: Deathwatch Units

Show

HQ

Watch Master: One per army. Still, he comes with the normal Chapter Master Auras 6": DEATHWATCH CORE get re-roll 1s to hit. Additionally, one DEATHWATCH CORE or CHARACTER unit gets to re-roll all their hits until your next turn. As far as options go...He has none. He comes stock with a Vigil Spear and that's all you get. Rapid Fire 1, S4, AP-1, 2D. Bearing in mind that it does have access to SIA, and you can make it AP-2 or D3. In Melee, it's a Force Sword, which isn't bad at all. However, however, a Vigil Spear doesn't count as a Bolt weapon (yet), and so you can't get Bolter Discipline with it, so that's kind of lame. Finally, he has a 2+ save, which is neat.

Watch Captain Artemis: CAPTAIN. He has one move. Once per game, he can chuck a Stasis Grenade 6". Roll a 2+ and deal D6 Mortal Wounds. Using Command Re-Roll, you can re-roll to hit, sure. But the Mortal Wounds? Can't re-roll that. Pay points to miss. Pay points to fail. Terrible. However, his model is amazing and you should use it to make many conversions of cooler, better models. Having this dude count as your Captain for the Detachment would be real bad.

Chaplain Cassius: PRIEST, CHAPLAIN. A Chaplain-on-foot, who has +1 to Inspire, and his Crozius has an extra AP. Given that he's on foot, and the Chapter that he's in, he really would prefer running Catechism of Fire, or Recitation of Focus.
Designer's Note: The Codex itself, tells you that if you include Chaplain Cassius in your army, you shouldn't include Primaris Marines in your army. Wow. Did you just read that!? GW told you not to buy Primaris Marines. Bizarre.

Codicier Natorian: LIBRARIAN. The Battle-Psyker. Every time he manifests Smite or a Witchfire Power, he has +1 to manifest. Additionally, his Force Sword has an extra AP. That's it.

---

Captain: Regular, Firstborn Captains (on foot), can pick up a Xenophase Blade. Don't really bother, since they're not as good as Thunder Hammer or Power Fist...Unless your meta is insane with Harlequin players, and to a lesser extent, Daemons.

Lieutenants: Due to the way Xenos Hunters works, and how you can just choose to have rr1s to wound, and the various ways of how you can change it. Lieutenants aren't really neccessary in a Deathwatch Detachment.

As previously mentioned, any HQ with a Jump Pack (or Bike) will do nicely, because The Beacon Angelis is a fairly unstoppable gimmick. Until or unless it gets nerfed with 'Can't be used in Round 1', you should have a Jump Pack'd HQ.

---

Troops

Deathwatch Veterans: Two Wounds and two Attacks each, at 20 Points...Doesn't that just make them Intercessors? Except not terrible? ...Yes! They come stock with a Deathwatch Boltgun (SIA) and Power Sword for +3 Points (23 Points, base). Except you can get rid of the Power Sword for an Astartes Chainsword for free, instead. So they are Intercessors and Assault Intercessors at the same time? ...Yes! ...But they can neither shoot or fight twice. Sad face. Mainly, with Deathwatch Boltguns, you're going to switch between +6", AP-1 (i.e; 'Bolt Rifles'), or +1 Damage. +1 to wound off of Hellfire Rounds, even vs. T5, is the same modifier as AP-1. But, because Kraken Bolts also give +6" range, that makes your Rapid Fire and Bolter Discipline, slightly stronger. Any model can switch their DW.Boltgun and Power Sword for:

• Deathwatch Shotgun. Fantastic! Amazing. Good job...Except they're extremely short range. Brutal out of a Drop Pod. Being free, is really, really good. In comparison to another thing, coming up.
• Stalker-Pattern Boltgun. Heavy 1, S4, AP-2, 2D. Yep. That's the one. Just like an Intercessor. However, unlike an Intercessor, Deathwatch units get SIA. Which means these guys are actually AP-3, or 3D. And just like everyone else, Deathwatch benefit from Combat Doctrines, and surprise, Heavy weapons are really, really good in any Space Marine army. If you're going to be Heavy 1 anyway, it's not a bad idea to give the Watch Sergeant Banebolts of Eryxia. That being said, Stalker Boltguns are not Sniper Rifles. Eliminators still have a place, even in a Deathwatch army, even though they don't even have SIA.
• 'Any 2 items you want.' From the Space Marines' list; This means Melee Weapons, Pistols, Combi-Weapons, Special Weapons and Storm Shields. Bear in mind that in the Deathwatch, Combi-Weapons (not including Storm Bolters) have the word 'Deathwatch' tacked on the front (e.g; Deathwatch Combi-Grav), so DW.Combi-Weapons have SIA. In what remains poor editing - and has existed for multiple editions - Deathwatch Veterans still retain the ability to trade their Deathwatch Boltgun, for a Deathwatch Boltgun. So at the very least, you can always trade your Power Sword for an Astartes Chainsword, and keep your Deathwatch Boltgun. That being said, because you're starting with a DW.Boltgun, Special Weapons are half-price, so equipping all of your Veterans with Grav-Guns and Chainswords (or Storm Shields) is absolutely a thing you can do.
• Watch Sergeants can take a Xenophase Blade. Melee isn't really where base-Veterans want to be. They look cool. But mechanically they aren't necessary. Unless Harlequins. Additionally, if the Watch Sergeant doesn't have a Storm Shield, they can take a Combat Shield in addition to their other two pieces of wargear.

Up to 4 Veterans can replace their DW.Boltgun and Power Sword for a Heavy weapon. Deathwatch are severely limited in their Heavy weapons choices. Especially since they don't have access to Tactical Squads, Scouts, Sternguard or Devastators. Where else can you get INFANTRY Heavy Bolters and Missile Launchers, if not with Deathwatch Veterans? Then again, you can just stack your unit with Special weapons. But, we do have to talk about 'em:

• Deathwatch Frag Cannon: You can't take Grav-Cannons. Is this the best you've got, then? ...No! It's short range and the fact that it costs 15 Points means that two Grav-Guns would be better. Hell, why not just give all your Deathwatch Veterans Grav-Guns?
• Infernus Heavy Bolter: Y'know...It'd be better if you just picked a Heavy Bolter, straight up, for less points.

• Heavy Thunder Hammer: For every 5 models in the unit, one model can replace their DW.Boltgun and Power Sword with one, which is a Thunder Hammer with an extra AP, and an extra Damage...When it comes to Damage, you really want to be looking at 3 or 6. 4 Damage is...Sub-optimal. You can probably use the Heavy Thunder Hammers for some cool conversions. But they're not actually that good.

• 0-1 Black Shield. For +5 Points over a regular Veteran, a Black Shield is WS2+, and so is really good with a Heavy Thunder Hammer. However, do make a note that if a Black Shield is equipped with two Melee weapons, his Attacks is increase to 4. So he's actually better with a regular Thunder Hammer/Power Fist, and a Chainsword. That being said, a Black Shield with a pair of Lightning Claws will have 6 Attacks. But once again, being in Melee isn't really where Veterans want to be, unless you're doing something with Drop Pods. You could place them in Reinforcements. But, at 9 Power for only 5 models, you're probably making a mistake.

If playing a Power game, just call everything a Proteus Kill Team. For some reason, calling a unit of Deathwatch Veterans a 'Proteus Kill Team' gives them -2 Power somehow. They're still Troops, because all Kill Teams are Troops. Someone's really dumb.

Kill Team Cassius: This Proteus Kill Team is...Terrible. Mostly because it isn't a Proteus Kill Team. It has the SMOKESCREEN Keyword which is...Something.

• Watch Sergeant; DW. Boltgun How do you not have a second weapon? At least a Chainsword? Come on.
• Veteran; Plasma Pistol, Power Sword Yep. You don't know what you're doing. Go home.
• Veteran; DW.Boltgun, Astartes Chainsword It's a bad sign when the Space Wolf is the most intelligent one in the Team.
• Veteran; DW.Combi-Melta Where's your OTHER WEAPON!? DID YOU LOSE IT?
• Veteran; Deathwatch Frag Cannon. The only thing worse than running 4 Frag Cannons, is running only one.
• Terminator; Deathwatch Heavy Flamer, Meltagun, Power Fist, DW.Teleport Homer. You're clocking close to 50 Points on a single model. At least he synergises with the Iron Hand? Kind of?
• Veteran Biker; DW.Twin Boltgun, Power Sword. Good to know that you can't **** up Bikers.
• Vanguard Veteran; Lightning Claws (Pair), Jump Pack. A Storm Shield would've been better. Hey, since this is a Vanguard Veteran, shouldn't the unit gain the MELTA BOMBS Keyword? Oh...No? I'll go **** myself for reading the rules, I suppose.
• Vanguard Veteran; Hand Flamer, Astartes Chainsword, Jump Pack. *headdesk* And you left your MELTA BOMBS at home, too, I suppose?
• +25 Points for AQUILA Specialism.

So, for all that terribleness, you save ~20 Points, by getting models that are terrible and bad. A regular Proteus Kill Team is minimum Power 7 (Deathwatch Veterans by themselves are Power 9? What?). Kill Team Cassius is Power 3...Wait...Hang on...Did you spot it? ...This Kill Team only has 9 models in it. So that's weird way to use Combat Squads.
*Laughs in hysterically bad*

---

Elites

Deathwatch Terminator Squad: Like normal Terminators, but with the following changes:

• 3 models, regardless of the size of the unit, can take Heavy weapons.
• Can actually replace their Power Fists for any Power Weapon for less points.
• Can mix between Shootynators and Assault Terminators.

Not great. Main use for Deathwatch Terminators is for jamming them into Proteus Kill Teams for a 3-Wound model with a Storm Shield. Or to put Assault Cannons into a Deathwatch Veteran squad.

Vanguard Veterans: In addition to their normal wargear, they can now take Heavy Thunder Hammers. As with Deathwatch Veterans, a 4-Damage weapon operates in a weird no-Wounds-land, where it's too good to be used normally, but it's not good enough to be used where it would really matter. Besides, you're better off paying 1 more Point to have a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield.

Company Veterans:
Can take any normal wargear. But don't have the oppurtunity cost of losing Deathwatch Boltguns.
Any way you equip Deathwatch Veterans that doesn't involve Deathwatch-specific wargear, can be done with Company Veterans, but with the Bodyguard rule. Also you gain access to COMMAND SQUAD, which is something to consider. Supplement: Deathwatch, is not a Codex. The good things from Codex: Space Marines, are still good.

---

Fast Attack

Veteran Bike Squad: Non-CORE. When did Bikers stop being Core? Why? What's the Narrative? Twin Deathwatch Boltgun. Really good. Instead of 2 Special weapons, the whole squad can be equipped with Power Weapons. Can be accompanied by a Veteran Attack Bike. Multi-Meltas are always good, especially when the rest of the squad doesn't have Special weapons (e.g; Grav-Guns). Once again, it's hard to tell where Veteran Bikers fit in, because for 0 Points you can make the models Troops, as long as you take a unit of Deathwatch Veterans, too. Which you will. Also, Proteus Kill Teams gain the CORE Keyword, so **** you, GW. Your Codex makes no sense.

[Squark]

Once again, GW doesn't address how Combat Squads works when the unit has an Attack Bike (becomes an odd number of models).[/spoiler]

Per the main codex, you split the unit up as evenly as possible. Actually, as far as I can tell, the attack bike is mandatory if you want to combat squad, since you can only combat squad with the maximum number of models possible.

So just forget the sidecar has an extra guy, and just do what the rules say, regardless of what would make sense!

[Cheesegear]

Per the main codex, you split the unit up as evenly as possible.

I never read and/or glossed over the 'as possible' clause. That means Kill Team Cassius, as bad as it is, can also Combat Squad...Into two even worse squads.

[hamishspence]

Watch Master: One per army. Interestingly, if your army includes a CAPTAIN, you can make it a CHAPTER MASTER and have both. But that's the kind of mistakes you get when you turn a standalone 'Chapter' into a Supplement. Still, he comes with the normal Aura 6":

The core 9e codex specifically states a Deathwatch Captain cannot take Chapter Master - is there a rule for Watch Master that specifically allows you to override that?

[Cheesegear]

The core 9e codex specifically states a Deathwatch Captain cannot take Chapter Master

Found it. I hate when GW drops a load of Keywords in the same sentence. It makes my eyes glaze over. If GW wants to spam Keywords, they should really change the formatting to bullet points.

[hamishspence]

Recommended Successor Tactics: TBD. Because of probable Nerf Alert.

If Deathwatch 'Chapters' can use Successor Tactics, then you don't even need to paint your models black-and-silver.
If you're a Firstborn Grognard, or you just don't want to buy new models, Deathwatch is for you. You may however, have to start converting your models to make them look more better than regular Tactical Marines.

The Successor Tactics rule specifically states "If your chapter does not have an associated Chapter Tactic on pages 94-95, you must instead create their Chapter Tactic by selecting rules from the list here".

"Deathwatch" is on page 95 - so you can't create a Successor Chapter that uses Deathwatch Veterans Kill Teams rules, but has the two best Successor Chapter tactics - if you use Deathwatch Veterans Kill Teams, you must use the page 95 Chapter Tactic for Deathwatch on them.

[Cheesegear]

"Deathwatch" is on page 95 - so you can't create a Successor Chapter that uses Deathwatch Veterans Kill Teams rules, but has the two best Successor Chapter tactics - if you use Deathwatch Veterans Kill Teams, you must use the page 95 Chapter Tactic for Deathwatch on them.

The rule I'm looking for is on page 124 - Successor Chapters:

If your unit is not from the Deathwatch or a First Founding Chapter [...], it is from a Successor Chapter, and you must decide which of the aforementioned First Founding Chapters it is a Successor of.

So no.
No Deathwatch Successor Chapters.
I lied.
Time to start hard-repainting your Firstborn. I've got a lot of camo schemes ready.

[Squark]

The rule I'm looking for is on page 124 - Successor Chapters:

If your unit is not from the Deathwatch or a First Founding Chapter [...], it is from a Successor Chapter, and you must decide which of the aforementioned First Founding Chapters it is a Successor of.

So no.
No Deathwatch Successor Chapters.
I lied.
Time to start hard-repainting your Firstborn. I've got a lot of camo schemes ready.

... Did they actually define First Founding Chapter in the rules section, or are they counting on people to dive through the fluff to know that Black Templars, Crimson Fists, and Flesh Tearers are not first founding chapters?

Edit: Okay, Inheritors of the Primarch at least lists them, but the App isn't great for this.

[Cheesegear]

... Did they actually define First Founding Chapter in the rules section...

They do, that's what the '[...]', is.

[Squark]

So... First impressions of the new Space Wolves Supplement

-There's quite a few things dedicated to making up for the lack of a Chapter Tactic that helps you get into melee sooner, as well as a Stratagem and Psychic Power to put things into the Assault Doctrine immediately. These go some way towards making up for problems, but I have this nagging feeling this is throwing good money after bad.
-Hunter, Aura of Majesty, and Resolve of the Bear look intersting for Warlord traits, but the saga not triggering until the end of the phase makes the auras impractical. That being said, Bjorn is eligible for Wisdom of the Ancients now, so you could get a Dreadnought Character with a 9" aura of re-roll 1's to hit and to wound, which is hillarious.
-Armour of Russ and Wulfen Stone are still amazing. Other relics less so.
-Most of the secondary Objectives were intended to be fluffy, and are thus predictably bad. Getting 3 VPs/round for having at least two units that charged or end your turn engaged might be decent if you like Incursors, though.
-Blood Claws are at relative parity with Assault Intercessors, so are worth considering if you want to use a Firstborn transport (Stormwolves should be carrying Assault Centurions, though). Grey Hunters are left in a really awkward spot, though.
-Hounds of Morkai are a bad joke outside of Crusade, where you can leave them out of your army until you come up against Grey Knights or Thousand Sons
-Wulfen got hit with the "Thunderfire Cannon Effect." They might fare a little better after points adjustments, at least.
-Thunderwolf Cavalry seem like the perfect escort for a Smash Wolf Priest
-Long Fangs have lost most of their unique identity, but can 5 Heavy weapons, a special weapon, and a combi-weapon in a drop pod, for when you absolutely must delete something turn 1.


Overall, I don't find the supplement amazing, but it does seem to let Space Wolves do what they want to do, provided you weren't die-hard fans of Wulfen and Wolf Priests healing.

[Cheesegear]

Haha. Forgot about David Bowies...

Flier

Corvus Blackstar: T7 and 14 Wounds makes this a flying Tank, except it also has all the usual benefits of being an AIRCRAFT (e.g; -1 to hit as standard). It's really, really good at killing hordes, with its Twin Assault Cannon, 2*2D3 Heavy Bolters with Blast, and optional Hurricane Bolter. Unfortunately, if you paid attention to the Codex: Space Marines Guide, you know that hordes aren't really that important, and dealing massive amounts of 1 Damage, isn't actually that good. Even if your opponent is playing Orks or Tyranids, you're likely to win anyway, because you're ****ing Deathwatch, and how do you lose against Xenos armies that don't even have a Codex yet? Luckily, Stormstrike Missile Launchers are free, and so is the Twin Lascannon, and Hurricane Bolter is optional...And now your Blackstar is good for chunking down Vehicles. Additionally, in the Movement phase, if the Blackstar moves over an enemy unit, roll a 6 for each model in the unit (to a max. of 10d6); Each success is a Mortal Wound. This is very strong if your opponent has used Concealed Positions or similar to pick up board control, and you can very easily move over a unit. It only has two weapons (and optional third), so the reason it's so expensive is because it's also a Transport. It can Transport 12 Firstborn models, with the usual stipulations on Jump Pack and Terminator models*. Additionally, a Corvus Blackstar is the only Transport in the game that can carry BIKERS, which sounds pretty cool, until you remember that Bikes have Twin Deathwatch Boltguns and would like to be on the board. Not least because Veteran Bikers are equipped with Melee weapons, and by using Brotherhood of Veterans, they can grab Lightning Assault (White Scars), which allows them to Advance and Charge in the same turn...Point is, don't Transport Bikers. Do a Turn 1 Charge, instead. Finally, remember that Corvus Blackstars are exceptionally strong - compared to say, Stormravens - because of Shroud Field, which means that they can rarely ever be shot at, on Turn 1 if you go second, which allows you to keep the Blackstar alive, and the valuable unit inside. Additionally, for +5 Points, the Blackstar can have one of the following:

• Gains Ignores Cover, or
• +1 save vs. Attacks made by enemy AIRCRAFT. Solid choice in an Aeldari meta. Also you're Deathwatch. Win more, amirite?

*Nerf Alert. CENTURIONS, being INFANTRY, only take up a single space in a Blackstar because copy-paste rules don't account for Centurions being part of the army roster. Expect this to be rectified.

---

And it wouldn't surprise me at all, if GW 'corrected' the fact that Deathwatch were allowed Centurions at all.

Brotherhood of Veterans: Used in your Command phase, and ends at the end of your turn. Lose rr1s to wound vs. a Role. That could be fine, depending on circumstance.

• Dark Angels: ...No.
• White Scars: Veteran Bikers lose the ability to take Special weapons, in favour of taking Melee weapons. Bikers are now a Melee unit, which is exactly the kind of unit that White Scars are missing. But, you're Deathwatch. This is perfect.
• Space Wolves: Can be useful if you're running Vanguard Veterans and spamming Power Fists/Thunder Hammers/Heavy Thunder Hammers.
• Imperial Fists: Extra hits with your Deathwatch Boltguns and ignore Light Cover? Yes.
• Crimson Fists: Extra hits with your Deathwatch Boltguns and +1 to hit vs. hordes? ...Yes. But not as applicable as Imperial Fists.
• Black Templars: If you aren't going to abuse the **** out of Veteran Bikers, use Righteous Zeal, and slingshot using The Beacon Angelis.
• Blood Angels: If you aren't going to abuse the **** out of Veteran Bikers, use Red Thirst, and slingshot using The Beacon Angelis.
• Flesh Tearers: The bonus-to-Charge from Blood Angels, is better. The re-roll-to-Charge bonus from Black Templars, is better.
• Iron Hands: Barely works, since BoV doesn't work in your opponent's turn. Unless you've got Engaged Terminators, and you don't expect them to win the melee.
• Ultramarines: Fall Back and Shoot is very good.
• Salamanders: Lose re-roll 1s to wound vs. Role, and gain one re-roll to wound vs. anything? #NotWorth.
• Raven Guard: Only works in your opponent's Shooting phase, which is exactly when BoV doesn't work.
• Successor Tactics: You only get to pick one, not two. No individual Successor Tactic is as good as a GW Faction's.

---

Turn 1
Command Phase; Brotherhood of Veterans (White Scars; 2 CPs) on a unit of Veteran Bikers. You know what to do.
Command Phase; Primaris Chaplain on Bike or Chaplain with Jump Pack, pops Canticle of Hate gaining Aura; Core units have +2" Charge. Remembering that Veteran Bikers in Kill Teams, gain the Core Keyword. But they don't need it (they're already moving 20" anyway). But they have it.

Movement;
Librarian with Jump Pack moves into position.
Chaplain moves into position.
Incursors are now 3" away from enemy models.
Reinforcements; Strong, Core Melee unit (e.g. Deathwatch Terminators, Vanguard, Bladeguard) is slingshotted via Beacon Angelis to appear next to Librarian and Chaplain.

Psychic phase; Librarian manifests Veil of Time on the unit that just appeared next to him via the Beacon.

"I declare a Charge with everything. Hope you don't play Xenos."

Whole thing took 2 CPs, a 3+ Inspire, a WC6 Power, and a Relic.
The only part your opponent can stop, is Veil of Time, maybe.
"aLphA striKeS woN'T ExiSt iN 9th."
Even if some of it doesn't go off, Incursors and Veteran Bikers will still get guaranteed charges no matter what.
(Incursors are mistake. If Reivers were Troops, at least they wouldn't have Concealed Positions.)

---

With Imperial Fists taking a nerf (I admit, it is justified, though...Unlike 400 Point Guilliman), and Deathwatch giving me almost exactly what I've wanted since 8th Ed. (with or without Centurions) started (yes, 8th, not 9th...See my Deathwatch Ultramarines army), I know what I'll be doing. I'm kind of hyped for Deathwatch Bladeguard. I have conversions planned.

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Finally, Deathwatch Combat Patrol:
P.Lieutenant; Not actually useful in a Deathwatch army. Especially not at 'Combat Patrol' level where choosing a Role from Xenos Hunters will already apply to everything good.
Intercessors; Deathwatch Veterans having actual parity with Intercessors, whilst being fully customizable in many, many ways (including the ways in which Intercessors are useful), make Intercessors objectively bad in the Deathwatch Faction. Deathwatch Veterans are exactly the same, but also way better, in the same slot. The main difference between Deathwatch Veterans and Intercessors lies in Shoot and/or Fight twice. But Deathwatch are already chewing through their CPs as it is.
P.Apothecary; As I said in my original Guide to Space Marines, it's hard to justify a P.Apothecary, when the Apothecary does the same job, but can be proc'd through with Command Squads. Given the way that Drop Pods and Corvus Blackstars work, and the way that Deathwatch love those things; I struggle to justify a P.Apothecary in a Deathwatch list.
Aggressors; Until Heavy Intercessors are released, hard to justify. But when Heavy Intercessors do show up...Get hyped.

---

Space Wolves next. I'm seeing positive things. But they said positive things about the last Space Wolves Codex, too, and that was dead on arrival.
I have a feeling it might end up simply being ipso facto; Space Marines are good. Space Wolves are Space Marines. Space Wolves are good.

[Adrastos42]

Much thanks for the guide, Cheesegear. Now I just need to actually pick up the supplement and I can finish building the DW Veterans I put on pause months ago:D

And that's very interesting about the brotherhood of veterans-biker combo, I was thinking of getting kill team Cassius to convert and split between units, seems like using the white scar biker from that as a biker sergeant would be fluffy and strong:D

I'm curious, are there any non-deathwatch units from the main dex that jump out as far better in a Deathwatch army? I know you've said Lieutenants are much worse when you already have a source of rr wounds.


(posted from mobile)

[Cheesegear]

I'm curious, are there any non-deathwatch units from the main dex that jump out as far better in a Deathwatch army?

Anything that isn't Troops, that becomes Troops by way of the Kill Team rules.
And of course I'm waiting for Centurion Devastators to get nerfed so that Centurion Devastator Sergeants can't give all their Bolt weapons special ammo.
(e.g; Core Sergeants only. **** you.)
I'm waiting for Eliminator Sergeants to get nerfed so they can't take Banebolts.
Terminators and Vanguard can be slingshootted.

Incurors and anything Melee-related are slightly better, since now you can choose when Assault Doctrine happens (e.g; Turn 1 and 2), instead of waiting 'til Turn 3/4, if you want to go all out with Incursors and Vicky Warsuits, you'll have AP-1 from go.

[Requizen]

So, here's the beginnings of a roster

Spoiler

Show

Deathwach Veteran Gunner (Heavy) with Frag Cannon -21 points
Deathwatch Veteran Gunner (Demolitions) with Frag Cannon -21 points
Deathwatch Veteran Gunner with Infernus Heavy bolter -18 points (Look, the combi-heavy flamer makes me smile, okay?)
Deathwatch Veteran (Veteran) with heavy thunder hammer -21 points
Black Shield (Zealot) with Power sword and Storm Shield -21 points
Deathwatch Veteran (Sniper) with Combi-plasma -17 points
Deathwatch Veteran with combi-plasma -17 points
Watch Sergeant (Leader) with Power Maul(?) and storm shield -21 points
Deathwatch Veteran with Shotgun -15 points
Deathwatch Veteran with Shotgun -15 points
Deathwatch Veteran -14 points

(Artemis will be kitbashed into either the Sergeant or Black shield).

Any suggestions?

Looks fine overall, you might want to have a 4 Frag Cannon setup but that might be overkill. What's your "default" list from the roster? It's good to have a few lists you can jump to without trying to add up points at the table.

[Squark]

Looks fine overall, you might want to have a 4 Frag Cannon setup but that might be overkill. What's your "default" list from the roster? It's good to have a few lists you can jump to without trying to add up points at the table.

The roster is built with what I can do with 2 blisters of veterans and Artemis. Adding more frag cannons is something I should do, but I'm working with what I have at the moment.

First Space Marine and Necrons FAQ are up

Primaris Apothecaries are now Primaris, Apothecary as predicted. Also, Black Templars finally got their index, and the Forgeworld legends PDF is up.

[9mm]

The roster is built with what I can do with 2 blisters of veterans and Artemis. Adding more frag cannons is something I should do, but I'm working with what I have at the moment.

First Space Marine and Necrons FAQ are up

Primaris Apothecaries are now Primaris, Apothecary as predicted. Also, Black Templars finally got their index, and the Forgeworld legends PDF is up.

huh, really expected more in the space marine one; well ATV shenanigans will continue for the foreseeable future.

[bluntpencil]

@Cheesegear

Re: Deathwatch Veteran Bikers...

They don't have Deathwatch Twin Bolters. Only the Biker in Kill-Team Cassius has this. Dumb, but that's what it is.

[JNAProductions]

What tools do White Scars have to put something in the Assault Doctrine early?

[Cheesegear]

Veteran Bikers don't have Deathwatch Twin Bolters. Only the Biker in Kill-Team Cassius has this. Dumb, but that's what it is.

1. That's real dumb.
2. I haven't played any games with Bikers yet, so I haven't cheated.
3. Luckily, Twin Boltguns isn't the reason I call Veteran Bikers good, and in fact, the way they are good, you can't use them anyway. You could do the same Advance and Charge with Outriders, and you still wouldn't be able to use their Rapid Fire, Twin Bolt Rifles. So no change.

I'll fix it.

What tools do White Scars have to put something in the Assault Doctrine early?

Adaptive Strategy (2 CPs). Until the start of your next turn, a Core unit has all the Doctrines.