The LA-assignment thread IX: I have no mouth and I must S,V,M

[Dalmosh]

+1 sounds all good, but is Vultivorr worth reappraising?

Its shapeshifting doesn't seem worth a whole level, but its obviously a straight upgrade on a normal Vorr.

Haraknin and Hellhound are both currently -0 so a moot point, but Shadurakul wasn't considered good enough to be worth a level ahead of shadow mastiff.

[ExLibrisMortis]

The comparison point is probably a melee focused rogue rather than a skill monkey rogue. So I am thinking Rogue 3 (with penetrating strike)/Swashbuckler (arcane stunt if dm lets you as well as shield of blades and maybe drow swashbuckler ACF) 15/Swordsage 2 probably taking swordsage around level 8 and 11 to optimize choices and daring outlaw feat. That is a pretty standard baseline for a rogue that is scrapping the skill monkey side and optimizing melee, unfortunately I don't think it compares at all with Vorr, even at LA +1 it still under performs compared to a vorr. The other comparison point would probably be swordsage which I think balances out with a Vorr somewhere around level 10 even with LA +1. I will put together some builds for comparison later.

Keep in mind that swashbuckler is a terrible class and technically outside the comparison range for this thread. Daring Outlaw makes the most of it, sure, but it's still scraping the bottom of tier 4, and I don't think that is the best way to evaluate LA. Lower-tier builds scale much more slowly than casting builds, especially low-optimization builds. If you take a selection of low-power ECL 10 and ECL 11 builds, it's going to be very difficult to figure out which is which just looking at the power (e.g. the full attack numbers, saves, hp totals, etcetera), because everything's going to be within a couple of points, and optimization level is more important than ECL (this gets way worse at ECL 19 and 20, of course). It's only when you start looking at higher-power builds that one or two levels starts making a noticable difference--the classic "new level of spells" power bump is one example. Essentially, tier 3+ builds are much more sensitive to a one-point LA difference than tier 4- builds (and t2 more sensitive again than t3, and so on).

In this case, I don't think a Daring Outlaw build is a good point of comparison--all the class features are straight numbers, which don't scale well at all and thus aren't sensitive at all. Low-ECL sneak attackers without racial spellcasting should be compared to swordsages, as you say, or Assassin/Unseen Seer builds, or perhaps mystic ranger Swift Hunter/Sword of the Arcane Order builds. (All the while keeping in mind that at least three levels must be open for RHD, e.g. the pre-Assassin levels in an Assassin build.) Those builds scale much more quickly (hunter's eye alone outscales plain rogue levels with a little optimization) and quickly leave the voor and Daring Outlaw behind.

The nice thing about this comparison is that you don't have to look at the numbers and judge what, precisely, the appropriate attack bonus is for ECL 10 vs. ECL 11 or how the voor changes that. You can look at how easily/quickly the voor scales into its builds, compared to a swordsage or rogue or spellthief or whatever. For low-power builds, LA evaluation relies much more on the fiddly numerical comparisons, and you need a really strict and thorough baseline to compare to. In fact, given the many different optimization levels that are in use, you need a set of baselines, and that's something that's going to be difficult to create. (We all have ideas about what the the numbers should look like at a given level, of course, but nothing rigorous, I imagine.) For higher-power builds, you can look at scaling instead of specific numbers, and that allows the comparison between generalized builds instead of specific characters.

Anyway, all that is a long-winded way of explaining why I much prefer the swordsage comparison to the Daring Outlaw. Carry on, just thinking out loud...

[Morphic tide]

Bit of a note on builds using Rogue 3 as its stopping point, Arcane Trickster asks for 2d6 Sneak Attack. So if you can find a way to get the skill requirements in order, you're actually at the expected pace save for the level adjustment. Which is admittedly absolute hell without heavy-duty shenanians, because Beguiler is Intelligence based, Sha'ir and Sorcerer are terrible for skills, and Bard's still missing Disable Device. But it is a more substantial thing to look at for that Charisma bonus.

[Unavenger]

From the looks of it, I'll say +1 as well.

[Blue Jay]

+1 sounds all good, but is Vultivorr worth reappraising?

Its shapeshifting doesn't seem worth a whole level, but its obviously a straight upgrade on a normal Vorr.

Haraknin and Hellhound are both currently -0 so a moot point, but Shadurakul wasn't considered good enough to be worth a level ahead of shadow mastiff.

I agree with LA +1 for the vorr, but like you, I don't think the vultivor is worth an extra point of LA, so it can stay where it is.

And again, that insane Shadow Form DR slipped under the update booklet's radar. If pressed, I'd probably just have to call it DR 20/magic, but the player would probably be rather disappointed to hear that.

[Caelestion]

LA +1 from me too. Anything that is a straight upgrade on the closest comparable class is not LA 0.

[Inevitability]

Big majority for +1, I'll update the LA and move on to the wendigo!

[Inevitability]

Wendigo

D&D art at its finest: a weird contorted position, perfectly visible abs in spite of fur being all around them, and whatever is going on with that shoulder.

An impressive number of creatures can become wendigos (humanoids and monstrous humanoids, but also giants, animals, and magical beasts). I never actually knew you could apply this to nonhumanoids, so I guess it's time to go hit my players with a ravenous lightning-fast roper!

Wendigos get a base 120 ft. fly speed (amazing), a deflection bonus to AC equal to their charisma, the Cold subtype, regeneration 5 only overcome by fire, and some hefty ability bonuses (+8 dexterity, +4 strength/constitution/charisma, +2 wisdom). They also get a bite attack (1d6 damage if medium) that's mostly notable for transmitting wendigo disease (not too relevant for PCs, though). Damage die aside, the bite has some impressive stats: it crits on an 18-20 roll, deals triple damage on critical hits (plus three points of bleed), and gets 1.5 times the monster's strength modifier to damage.

Furthermore, wendigo can Wind Walk at will. If they use this to stalk a creature, they can gradually reduce its wisdom and impose further penalties on wisdom-based skills. Finally, Wendigo get +8 to Hide, Move Silently, and Survival.

Aside from the large fire weakness (more fun monster ideas: aquatic wendigo), this is a very interesting template that boosts movement, AC, stats, and miscellaneous defenses, while also granting an useful bite. I think +2 LA is the very minimum here, and +3 might even be in order. Do discuss!

[Falontani]

Don't wendigos lose access to all of their other natural weaponry? While it won't usually affect humanoids, ropers and most animals will definitely dislike losing their shtick.

[liquidformat]

more fun monster ideas: aquatic wendigo

Best part aquatic wendigo can't swim seems like a good template for something that already has the fire subtype.

You also get Track as a bonus feat and you become fey, and it doesn't say anything about recalculating your former HD besides rhd are now d6. Can someone remind me how acquired templates are handled with RHD?

Don't wendigos lose access to all of their other natural weaponry? While it won't usually affect humanoids, ropers and most animals will definitely dislike losing their shtick.

Actually this ends up being mostly in the Roper's favor as their drag strands are special attacks which the Wendigo explicitly keeps.

Its a shame Maddening Whispers is only useable once per day, the text is pretty up in the air about using it so you could probably just sit around and spam it if it was useable more than once a day. I'm going to hold off for the moment and think it over before rating.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Looking at the half-dragon--which got +2, albeit with some comments that it was weak at that LA--I think this is better, with similar-but-better ability boosts, crazy fly speed, and regeneration. It's either a strong +2 (viable even for lower-power casters), or a weak +3 (for noncasters only). I'll go with +2, but I won't protest a +3.

[Efrate]

I adore this template; it's a quick way to supercharge a special monster encounter. It's at least a +2, +3 wouldn't be amiss. It's a great way to add some weird horror to someone being haunted on an overland adventure.

[Thurbane]

• Type change to Fey, and gain Cold Subtype (with the usual immunity and vulnerability).
• HD change to d6 (doesn't specify racial HD only. Odd)
• Fly 120 (perfect), lose all other movement modes. Hey, who needs em when you can fly like that?
• Deflection bonus to AC equal to Cha mod. Nice.
• Bite becomes your sole attack. Does that preclude weapon use with your hands/limbs?
• Disease - turn others into cannibals and Wendigos. Not much use for a PC, you don't gain any control over your victims.
• Maddening Whispers - 1d3 Wis damage, save negates, to one chosen victim only.
• Ravenous Bite - bite attack has increased critical threat range, and inflicts bleeding wounds.
• Corner of the Eye - your chosen victim takes -2 to Wis based skill checks.
• Regeneration 5 - overcome by fire.
• Wind Walk at will - move action to activate/deactivate. Nice.
• Str +4,Dex +8, Con +4, Wis +2, Cha +4: net +22, no penalties.
• +8 racial bonus on Hide, Move Silently, and Survival.
• Track as a bonus feat.

So, you get a lot of good stuff, but I'm concerned you can no longer wield weapons (except Mouthpick). I guess caster or skillmonkey would be viable in any case.

I'll agree with LA +3, but could also see it as a strong +2.

[Caelestion]

The deflection, regen, flight and excellent stats are very nice. The deadly bite even makes up for any attacks lost. The only thing that gives me pause before saying LA +3 is that you become a fey and likely get an RHD decrease.

[liquidformat]

The deadly bite even makes up for any attacks lost.

I mean you are doing 1d6 bite damage as medium or 2d4 as large that isn't that impressive even with 18-20/x3. Crit fishing really isn't that great of a strategy without a lot of optimization.

Concerns I am having with Windingo from reading through it. All your HD change to d6 and bite becomes your only attack, note this doesn't say you loose other natural attacks but this is your SOLE attack. Heck a strict DM might even say no touch attacks unless they are delivered with your bite...

Granted if you are rogue, wizard, sorcerer or similarly low hp class this might be no change or an upgrade but only being able to make bite attacks is a large concern for any non-caster builds. With that said I still can't see going below +2 as that would make this a gimme for all casters who are ok with being evil. I think I will stay with +2 LA since we can't change LA based on class choice, if we could I would say this is +1 for non casters and +3 for casters.

[Caelestion]

If you had the sort of "strict" GM that enforces your class dice changing to d6s as well, a non-caster (with the possible exception of a rogue) is not going to take the template regardless, are they?

[danielxcutter]

To be fair, many classes with higher than a d6 don't want this template that badly when things like draconic goliaths are on the table.

[Remuko]

i cant make heads or tails of this tbh. it doesnt feel worth as much as people are saying. throw me in for +2 i guess, just to try to stop this from getting +3 and being worthless.

[liquidformat]

If you had the sort of "strict" GM that enforces your class dice changing to d6s as well, a non-caster (with the possible exception of a rogue) is not going to take the template regardless, are they?

I think the kicker is more the question of how your dm interprets sole attack than d6s. If your dm thinks that just means no natural weapons but still can use weapon attacks and attacks gained through class levels I could see a totemist, dragonfire adept or maybe even Psychic Warrior still jumping onboard even if they have d6s. On the other hand if your dm interprets sole attack as you only get a bite attack period, then yeah only casters and probably not even rogue...

[danielxcutter]

...Aren't spells listed under special attacks?

[liquidformat]

...Aren't spells listed under special attacks?

The template explicitly allows you to keep all special attacks of the base creature so spells are still fine it is just things like natural weapons and questionably the ability to use manufactured weapons as well as natural attacks gained through class levels that is a concern.

[Debatra]

I always err on the side of lower LA on borderline cases. Put me down for +2.

[Inevitability]

+2: 5 votes
+3: 2 votes

Note that this rating involved me interpreting some votes to the best of my ability (bold your votes, people!).

[Inevitability]

Wicker Man

I gotta hand it to them: a building-sized flaming effigy that tries to grab you and store you in its chest cavity is nothing if not creative.

As a PC, however, it fails to impress. Huge size and 28 strength are nice, but 12 RHD are a steep price, no intelligence sucks, and ambiguously prehensile digits don't help. The wicker man also has few offensive traits outside of grappling, with its other abilities (Magic Immunity, Fire Immunity, Hardness 5, Piercing Immunity) all being defense-focused.

I feel like this would compare reasonably to a Tier 5 character, but I don't think it's on par with the Tier 3-4 benchmark used here. -0 LA but not absolutely terrible.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Agreed, -0.

Wicker men are based on a particular type of human sacrifice alledgedly performed by the Celts. Like other gruesome Roman tales about the Celts any people Romans ever fought, it's probably nonsense, but it makes for an interesting monster concept.

[Efrate]

-0. It's an okay horror-y encounter or a story setpiece but as a pc it doesnt get there.

[Thurbane]

"The bees, the bees!"

• Huge Construct
• 12 RHD (d10 HD, medium BAB, no good saves, and 2 skill points/"level" once you get an Int score - sadly, no racial skills though).
• Speed 40 ft (can't run - was that dropped in 3.5?).
• 2 slams 2d8.
• Encage: trap grappled victims in your chest.
• Improved Grab: standard for a lot of large melee type monsters.
• Construct traits: the usual goodies and drawbacks.
• Fire immunity: without the accompanying vulnerability to cold - nice.
• Flaming body: when exposed to flame, set foes on fire, damage grapplers, and damage anyone in your chest. 10 minutes at a time, 5 minute cooldown.
• Hardness 5: small number, but hardness is generally better than DR in most aspects.
• immunity to magic: presumably updated to be inline with golems etc. so only against spells that are SR: yes. Entangle spells heal you.
• immunity to piercing: nice.
• Str +18, Dex -2, Con --, Int --, Cha -10: presumably you'll be getting Awakened to be a PC, which leaves you with +18 Str, -2 Dex and no Con score.

Huge humanoid in form, and looks like it could manipulate objects.

It gets some OK stuff, but I don't think you get enough to make up for 12 awful RHD.

LA -0 from me too.

[liquidformat]

"The bees, the bees!"

• Huge Construct
• 12 RHD (d10 HD, medium BAB, no good saves, and 2 skill points/"level" once you get an Int score - sadly, no racial skills though).
• Speed 40 ft (can't run - was that dropped in 3.5?).
• 2 slams 2d8.
• Encage: trap grappled victims in your chest.
• Improved Grab: standard for a lot of large melee type monsters.
• Construct traits: the usual goodies and drawbacks.
• Fire immunity: without the accompanying vulnerability to cold - nice.
• Flaming body: when exposed to flame, set foes on fire, damage grapplers, and damage anyone in your chest. 10 minutes at a time, 5 minute cooldown.
• Hardness 5: small number, but hardness is generally better than DR in most aspects.
• immunity to magic: presumably updated to be inline with golems etc. so only against spells that are SR: yes. Entangle spells heal you.
• immunity to piercing: nice.
• Str +18, Dex -2, Con --, Int --, Cha -10: presumably you'll be getting Awakened to be a PC, which leaves you with +18 Str, -2 Dex and no Con score.

Huge humanoid in form, and looks like it could manipulate objects.

It gets some OK stuff, but I don't think you get enough to make up for 12 awful RHD.

LA -0 from me too.

Yeah and awaken construct should apply but doesn't do enough to offset 12 rhd... -0 LA seems right here.

So did we decide what the next book will be?

[PoeticallyPsyco]

I think I've seen a bunch of people wanting to do the "Monster Manual VI", or all the online monsters and stuff. Which sounds cool to me. I'd also really like to do Savage Species at some point; potentially skipping a few of the truly swingy ones like Incarnate Construct and Symbiotic Creature.

[unseenmage]

I think I've seen a bunch of people wanting to do the "Monster Manual VI", or all the online monsters and stuff. Which sounds cool to me. I'd also really like to do Savage Species at some point; potentially skipping a few of the truly swingy ones like Incarnate Construct and Symbiotic Creature.

While I agree that Symbiotic is a mess, Incarnate Construct is a just a straight downgrade.