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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    ElfPirate

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread IX: I have no mouth and I must S,V,M

    Quote Originally Posted by unseenmage View Post
    While I agree that Symbiotic is a mess, Incarnate Construct is a just a straight downgrade.
    Incarnate Construct sucks, true, but as it stands it currently has a negative LA, which this thread doesn't do. (Though it would be interesting to try and determine precisely what fraction of a level a featureless HD is worth, and give it an LA along the lines of "negative [1/2 racial HD] (minimum zero)", letting the player load up on more templates to make up the lost class features.)
    Last edited by PoeticallyPsyco; 2020-10-22 at 08:23 PM.
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  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread IX: I have no mouth and I must S,V,M

    Quote Originally Posted by PoeticallyPsyco View Post
    I'd also really like to do Savage Species at some point; potentially skipping a few of the truly swingy ones like Incarnate Construct and Symbiotic Creature.
    The way I always read Symbiotic Creature is... it lets you combine with a second creature, but it doesn't give you the second creature. If you want to use it as a PC, then you need to combine with your animal companion, familiar, cohort, etc.

  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread IX: I have no mouth and I must S,V,M

    The Wicker Man is a touch interesting as a -0 because it's mostly a matter of having only one thing to do that's not perfectly applicable, but unlike the standard borderline of t4 and t5 Martial, that thing makes it perfectly useful for non-lethal combat encounters because it can Encage enemies and just keep them. Three Large, and goes down from there at the standard doubling, so you can pretty easily scoop up whole bands of ruffians to turn in to the town guard.

    And for Huge enemies and up? Well, you do have hands explicitly able to hold things, are Huge yourself, and have 26 Strength. So you ought to very readily function as a conventional Martial with little investment, but you don't really have the space to get anywhere with being anything more than a beatstick. It's probably in a better position, overall, than a standard Barbarian 20, and the infamous frontloading of the Pounce works just as well with the requisite levels in play, even though I think this is a niche where Monk might actually not be a meme for the rapid access to grappling feats and movement acceleration.

    So I guess I'm saying LA +0, because it's a big monster with passable damage and battlefield control that doesn't have to be lethal? Not Ubercharger damage, but probably better than the Spiked Chain Trippers and likely more reliable battlefield control than them. Definitely solid for a t4 party, because it actually does something beyond beating face, and seems to have enough defensive chops to shrug off being Con-less.

    If I'm understanding this properly, you can by baseline, before you're even touching the PC ability scores, deal 4d8+18 Bludgeoning damage and 4d6 Fire each turn, from being able to use the two Slams every turn to do the grapples and then the Flaming Body damage. And Improved Natural Attack (Slam) adds 1d8 to each Slam for one feat, while the enhancement-carrying amulet for Natural Weapons only needs to cover two for a sensible amount. Maybe also Armor Spike damage, which is 2d6 by baseline, but I've no idea how applicable that actually is because I don't know if you can still get your BAB-based grapple checks to use the Armor Spike damage.

    And this can be split between two targets being actively pummeled and another three to twelve enemies "stored" to suffer 10d6 Fire a turn. And if you can mix in the BAB grapples, that's another two to start with and a third at probably level 14, with all the subjects being locked down relatively reliably, with a non-zero shot at Colossal enemies being locked down at the end of campaign with enough optimization.

    Edit: The big thing here is that the downsides of Construct RHD aren't critical for a Huge Grappler, and being a Construct with Immunity to Magic (Ex) means you have almost no reason to care about saving throws. Having any Hardness is a big thing for making even more a mockery of the need for saves, because the few non-magic Energy damage sources will be halved without issue, and you have a separate immunity to the most common of them. It's just layers and layers of stuff that looks simple, but usable, to me, in the context of the narrowly-good t4 build spaces.

    The question to ask here is if you'd trade the back 12 of Fighter, Monk, or Barbarian 13-15 for this thing. And I think that's a quite genuine question for just the pile of blunt no you get out of it. May also be some edge-cases with Setting Sun Swordsages, but that's a losing proposition for the more general comparison to the class because Initiators can't casually throw away 12 levels.

    (also, the archive has the Shadow Asp link to the Shadar-kai post)
    Last edited by Morphic tide; 2020-10-23 at 08:24 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread IX: I have no mouth and I must S,V,M

    Quote Originally Posted by Morphic tide View Post
    Having any Hardness is a big thing for making even more a mockery of the need for saves, because the few non-magic Energy damage sources will be halved without issue
    Having a hardness score doesn't make you take half damage from energy. Objects take half damage from energy, true, but that's independent of their hardness score.
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  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread IX: I have no mouth and I must S,V,M

    Didn't someone enter one of these in the Villainous Comps?
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  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread IX: I have no mouth and I must S,V,M

    Yellow Musk Creeper


    A semi-iconic take on the 'stuff that turns people into zombies' theme.

    Six plant RHD aren't a great start, and the stats leave something to be desired as well. Strength is a mere 10 (pitiful on a Huge creature), with only Dexterity (16) and Constitution (21) even getting a positive modifier. Saving it from being completely worthless in melee are six 15 ft-reach vine whips, which notably can be improved with Rapidstrike later on (and free Weapon Finesse means that low strength doesn't hurt as much).

    The Creeper also gets Blindsight, but explicitly has normal sight as well (unusual for plant monsters). Regeneration 5 overcome only by fire and acid is cool, too.

    Finally, the special abilities. The first, Consume Intelligence, forces the Creeper to share its space with another creature then slowly deals Intelligence damage. Frail creatures (those who don't make a Fortitude saving throw) are devoured, all others become Yellow Musk zombies (roughly equivalent to normal zombies in terms of combat utility). I'm not entirely sure about infinite free zombies at this low an ECL, so this probably deserves an asterisk. Secondly, help it get creatures into its space, the Creeper can also spray mind-altering spores, which is a pretty cool Fortitude-based save-or-lose that can be spammed quite a bit.

    Is the creeper practical to use? Not really: it's a Huge-sized plant with 5 ft. of movement, unimpressive melee presence and no real special attacks outside of spamming spores (which, admittedly, are pretty solid). However, those flaws can be worked around, leading to an unconventional yet usable PC. +0* LA.
    Last edited by Inevitability; 2020-10-28 at 03:12 AM.
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  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread IX: I have no mouth and I must S,V,M

    This is such a delightfully alien --- but creepy and unpleasant --- idea for a PC. It's probably going to be difficult for a DM to work with, especially with the infinite, but short-lifespan, better-than-zombies. So I agree that the asterisk is warranted. There's also a bit of ambiguity around the mind-affecting and intelligence-consuming special attacks, especially with regards to how someone can be rescued from them. For example, the conditions required for breaking the mind control and ending the brain-eating are different, but there aren't any provisions addressing what happens when one is broken without the other. You could hypothetically break the mind control through some means or another, leaving an uncontrolled victim inside the plant. Presumably, some kind of grapple rules might come into play at this point, but that's not addressed. Or, some text implies that you can extract a victim from the plant, but by RAW the brain-eating continues until either the victim or the creeper is dead. It shouldn't be too tough to make some decisions, but this is something the player and DM should consider beforehand.

    And it will also be tough for a player to use a musk creeper PC in a lot of situations, so that will definitely keep it from having too high an LA. In my pre-vote, I gave it +1*, mainly because of (Ex) mind-control (which bypasses many countermeasures, like the resurgence spell) and six melee attacks with reach. But, now I realize that there isn't a Trip or Improved Grab on those (which I think I had assumed before), and I'm also thinking that the mindlessness and slow movement speed are much bigger hindrances than I previously appreciated. Personally, I'm a fan of allowing free "awaken" effects for monster PCs, but I'm just starting to appreciate that that's not necessarily a given for all DMs. So, I think my vote will be LA +0* for the yellow musk creeper.

  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread IX: I have no mouth and I must S,V,M

    I very much agree this thing needs a *, but how difficult is a very low base movement speed to deal with really, since that seems the main sticking point? It has a movement speed, so every bonus in the game works, and the thing's a plenty useful blender for less build dedication than a lot of the "canon" heavy gishes. Wild Shape Ranger would get to 15 ft. movement at 7 overall HD, which is enough to cover basic PC-dom even if it's still pathetic for combat terms (you'll basically be tied up as a hideous threat to anyone trying to melee your allies), and you're getting full BAB and a per-hit damage bonus. Come Ranger 5, you get Wild Shape online, thereby letting you move around quite well and turn back into your proper self in sufficiently opportune situations for a wonderful popup blender that is a lot better than basically any Wild Shape form.

    One can instead go for a Barbarian that doesn't trade the Fast Movement, if you want to get into something to do with Rage, like go mad with blender as a Totem Rager.
    Last edited by Morphic tide; 2020-10-25 at 02:45 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread IX: I have no mouth and I must S,V,M

    An odd case here. Infinite better than zombies at 6hd deserves an asterisk for sure, but otherwise it's a weird kind of mess. Movement is pretty easily fixed, size makes it more difficult to actually adventure. WS ranger is a good fix, but...that's about it. Anyone else get size altering or transformation at level 1? Also that strength at huge is a lick in the teeth.

    I think I can give it +0*. Size is an issue as is NI zombies, but if you can work on that and movement I think it functions fine an an EL 7 party with a level of something.

  10. - Top - End - #70
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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread IX: I have no mouth and I must S,V,M

    Anyone else get size altering or transformation at level 1?
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    Last edited by Dalmosh; 2020-10-26 at 01:12 AM.

  11. - Top - End - #71
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    Post Re: The LA-assignment thread IX: I have no mouth and I must S,V,M

    This is a bit of a weird one, tough to rate.

    • Huge Plant (with reach).
    • 6 RHD (d8 hp, medium BAB, one good save, and 2 skill points/"level" once you get an Int score).
    • Speed 5 ft: yeah, you're going to need to do something about that if you want to be an adventurer.
    • +6 natural AC.
    • 6 vine whips 1d6; musk puff ranged attack.
    • Consume Intelligence: 1d4 Int damage/round to helpless or willing creatures in reach. This results in digestion or becoming a zombie plant once you hit 0 Int, depending on a Fort save. Minionmancy, and the end result is generally better than a standard zombie, also without HD limit.
    • Musk puff: Fort save and move up and stand around for 2d8 rounds getting your Int drained.
    • Blindsight 30 ft: seems to be as well as normal sight, if I'm reading the fluff text correctly?
    • Plant traits: lots of nice immunities.
    • Regeneration 5, overcome by fire of acid. Nice.
    • Dex +6, Con +10, Int --, Cha -2: net +14 with opne non-ability. You're obviously going to need an Int score somehow to be playable.
    • Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat.
    • No racial skills.

    Very non-standard body type, can't speak; may be able to manipulate items with vines, if the DM is feeling generous.

    I'll tentatively go along with LA +0* for now.

  12. - Top - End - #72
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    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread IX: I have no mouth and I must S,V,M

    I had a player use an awakened Yellow Musk creeper in a game I ran a while back, and so I just wanted to add some information that might help people. The minionmancy can seem scary, because while the Yellow Musk Creeper can turn any creature with an Int score (who is not immune to ability damage) into a Plant Zombie, there's some limitations:
    • They can only use that zombie for two months, after which, it dies.
    • Without some way to specifically command the Plant Zombies they are effectively just drones to wander within 100 feet of the creeper that can only perform two actions: feeding it more victims, or defending it from being killed.
    • They can use weapons and armor, no other class features, feats or skills.

    The benefits of the zombies are:
    • They are plants, and not undead. It even gains low-light vision.
    • They can still use any racial Ex, Sp, and Su abilities. So technically, a Drow Plant zombie can still use their Darkness SLA, but it cannot cast spells if it used to be a Wizard, though it potentially needs to be commanded specifically to do so.
    • When the Zombie dies, another Yellow Musk creeper grows in 1 hour.


    The in-built limited lifespan of the Plant Zombies can be a balance point, but the fast growth of a new Yellow Musk creeper can be exponential growth, especially if you have access to the Plant Domain, or the Command Plants spell.
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  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread IX: I have no mouth and I must S,V,M

    +0* LA it is, yellow musk zombies up next.
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  14. - Top - End - #74
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread IX: I have no mouth and I must S,V,M

    Yellow Musk Zombies


    I bet there's some Plants vs Zombies reference I could make here.

    Anyway, the yellow musk zombie is essentially a zombie-but-plant-typed, which is still not very good. RHD changes to d8, AC goes up a bit, intelligence/dexterity/wisdom all take a hit, and the typing becomes plant. There's not even a strength bonus, which regular zombie does provide.

    The zombies are also dependent on a creeper: for two months after creation they must stay close to it and afterwards they wander for a short while before dying. This is an (Ex) ability, meaning that getting rid of it might be tricky... I guess Acorn of Far Travel still works? Like all location abilities, this is worth an asterisk.

    Few PCs are improved by tanking their stats, rendering them location-bound, and removing their low-level feats. If you really want to play this, your best bet would probably to die in some spot that your enemies like, saddle them with a yellow musk creeper infestation, and then roll something more reasonable. -0* LA.

    (Also, something I just noticed: yellow musk zombies are actually smarter than the creepers that spawn them. The implications of this are amusing)
    Last edited by Inevitability; 2020-10-28 at 03:25 AM.
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  15. - Top - End - #75
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread IX: I have no mouth and I must S,V,M

    -0* Nothing much to see there, creeper zombie is not impressive in any way.

  16. - Top - End - #76
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    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread IX: I have no mouth and I must S,V,M

    easy -0* loose all your feats, skills, and class abilities and become unable to gain any until you die and your brain explodes with a creeper's birth or are cured. I do love the nod to the animal world zombies that these yellow musks give.

    On an interesting side note this template actually does not inhibit racial spellcasting, SLAs, and racial features that emulate class features; so it is an interesting template to toss on more exotic monsters like fey that often get spell casting or sneak attack as racial features.

    Honestly I am on the fence whether yellow musk creeper deserves an asterisk, musk puff and consume intelligence are both capped at DC 18, which even at ecl 6 isn't that hard of a fort DC to hit and only becomes easier as levels rise and harder to optimize and leverage. Also if a DM chooses to remove the ability to make musk zombies altogether I think the Creeper would be -0 at that point if there was simply a cap on the number of zombies then it would probably be +0.

    I suppose from the yellow musk creeper player point of view you want to target exotic creatures to zombafy, the best path for them might be to go cleric or druid even with the caster level hit and try to optimize a build that reduces enemies saves? Maybe hexblade would be a good choice here to get dark companion or something like that?

    Could the Awaken spell be used on Yellow Musk Creepers to make them playable, or would we have to go with something like fiendish/celestial?

    Hmm seems like going Fiendish Phrenic Yellow Musk Creeper might make this thing pretty decent.

  17. - Top - End - #77
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread IX: I have no mouth and I must V,S,M

    I agree with all of the above: LA -0* from me as well.

  18. - Top - End - #78
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread IX: I have no mouth and I must S,V,M

    I'll go ahead and back the LA -0*, but I have a decidedly different perspective on a player using a Yellow Musk Zombie, because they're explicitly the "prenatal" state of the Yellow Musk Creeper. All decision-making is coming from the "seed", not the host creature, so the character is the yet-to-be-"born" Yellow Musk Creeper. Consequently, I'd basically treat it as a one-up where the Zombie's death has the player go on as the Creeper an hour later.

    And because this is explicitly the mechanism of reproduction, Inherited Templates would be present in the "spawned" Yellow Musk Creeper. Spellwarped makes for a particularly bothersome option that also covers the need for higher Intelligence on the Zombies, though set-to templates or Awaken are required for the Creeper itself.

  19. - Top - End - #79
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread IX: I have no mouth and I must S,V,M

    Yuan-Ti Anathema


    Sadly, we're off to a poor start here: the anathema's chassis is an unimpressive 22 aberration RHD, with pretty standard stats for such a creature. Its DR, energy resistances, and SR all come in useful, though they all feel somewhat low for an Epic PC. Regeneration 5 overcome by Force and Adamantine is, again, useful, but numerically unimpressive. Six bites complement a weapon attack very nicely, especially when all deliver constitution-draining poison and have a chance to grab (then again, how many Epic foes will still be vulnerable to either?)

    In terms of magical ability, the anathema has the standard yuan-ti PLAs (Alternate Form, Chameleon, Detect Poison, Dissolving Touch, and Mass Aversion) as well as a number of SLAs (3/day Haste and Polymorph Other are probably most interesting, but 1/day Blasphemy and Unholy Aura have their uses too). That said, mid-level spells are far from enough to create a viable character.

    Finally, yuan-ti can provide yuan-ti grafts to other creatures, which depend on how you read the rules may or may not cost money. Most of these are pretty sub-par, although I suppose it can grant one or two new attacks to a natural weapons build.

    In the end, I just don't think this snakelike monster has what it takes to be an epic-level PC. -0 LA, faintly considering +0.
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  20. - Top - End - #80
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread IX: I have no mouth and I must S,V,M

    -0. 22 HD is a LOT. You are in epic territory and you cannot hang as is.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread IX: I have no mouth and I must S,V,M

    Wow, they couldn’t even be arsed to remember that Yuan-ti are usually monstrous humanoids. I could probably make a stronger Truenamer with that many levels; LA -0 all the way down.
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  22. - Top - End - #82
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread IX: I have no mouth and I must S,V,M

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Wow, they couldn’t even be arsed to remember that Yuan-ti are usually monstrous humanoids. I could probably make a stronger Truenamer with that many levels; LA -0 all the way down.
    An epic truenamer could call one of these if they cared. Definite LA -0.

  23. - Top - End - #83
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    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread IX: I have no mouth and I must S,V,M

    Easy -0 LA

  24. - Top - End - #84
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread IX: I have no mouth and I must S,V,M

    Come on guys, be more optimistic! It'll only take you to ECL 40 to hit level-appropriate abilities!

    Uh, yeah. LA -0.
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  25. - Top - End - #85
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread IX: I have no mouth and I must S,V,M

    It has a couple of decent SLAs, but nothing to warrant 22 RHD of a poor kind. Definitely LA -0.

  26. - Top - End - #86
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread IX: I have no mouth and I must S,V,M

    LA -0 vote for me, as well.
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  27. - Top - End - #87
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread IX: I have no mouth and I must S,V,M

    Aberration RHD, Regen that everybody and his dog has a way to shut down at that level, a handful of spell-likes and the like that are 10ish levels behind the curve ... there's words to accurately describe this as an epic-level PC, but none of them are fit for polite company. -0

  28. - Top - End - #88
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread IX: I have no mouth and I must S,V,M

    Next update will cover all yugoloths, but it won't be for a few more days on account of high workload. Thank y'all for being patient!
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  29. - Top - End - #89
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread IX: I have no mouth and I must S,V,M

    Yugoloth


    The less photogenic, less interesting, Neutral Evil counterpart to demons and devils!

    All yugoloth have a mild variation on the traditional fiend resistances: immunity to poison and acid, resistance to fire, cold, and electric. They're also all telepathic.

    Piscoloth

    Best known for... it's eight-strips appearance run in OotS?

    Their chassis is decidedly mediocre: nine outsider RHD aren't bad, but medium size and moderate stats disappoint. Two pinchers and eight tentacles sound cool, but note that the latter can only paralyze (still good, but worthless against certain foes). The pinchers themselves deal a decent 2d6 damage and have Augmented Criticals to boot. Some SR and DR round off the chassis.

    More interesting is the boatload of SLAs that piscoloths get. At-will Protection From Good and Detect Magic are solid utility, See Invisibility and Blink are great buffs, and 3/day Meld Into Stone, Stinking Cloud, and Phantasmal Killer all have their uses as well. It's not enough to exclusively rely on, but it sure helps! Also there's the ability to summon skeroloths, more on those down below.

    Considering that spells are cool, good RHD are cool, and eight paralyzing attacks a round are cool, I'm going to go and assign +1 LA here.

    Skeroloth

    The skeroloth is smaller, skulkier, and considerably scrawnier than its counterpart. Four outsider RHD, small size, and stats clearly tailored towards a less physical role (+6 dexterity, +2 constitution, -2 wisdom, -6 intelligence). The skeroloth gets a Climb and Burrow speed, which actually bypasses a lot of obstacles at low levels, as well as the very interesting combination of four (weak) claws and 1d6 sneak attack. Add in Craven, strength bonuses, rogue levels, and other static damage increasers, and you are looking at a very potent sneak attacker.

    Skeroloths aren't just martial either: they get the ability to summon others of their kind (albeit unreliably) and they have a number of usable SLAs. At-will Daze, Detect Good, and Jump all have their small uses, and 3/day Burning Hands and Expeditious Retreat are similarly nice to have. Nothing world-ending here, though.

    Finally, skeroloths can 'cringe' and compel foes to attack someone other than them: nice to stay alive in a pinch but mostly pointless.

    +0 LA should be fine: a 5th-level rogue and a 1st-level skeroloth rogue both have a lot going for them, but the former's higher sneak attack (and therefore PrC access) and better skills make me believe neither will dominate the other.
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  30. - Top - End - #90
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread IX: I have no mouth and I must S,V,M

    And TIL what the daemon summoned by Zz'dtri was actually called. You know, even considering that OotS' artstyle makes a lot of monsters easier on the eyes, that is one ugly bastard.
    Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.

    Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
    We also have a TvTropes page!

    Currently playing: Red Hand of Doom(campaign journal) Campaign still going on, but journal discontinued until further notice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
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