The LA-assignment thread IX: I have no mouth and I must S,V,M

[Inevitability]

It might. Inevitability was probably thinking of the minimum movement rule, but I'm not sure that applies to a creature whose unpenalized speed is too slow to actually move.

That was the rule yes, and it seems to fairly unambiguously allow for 5-ft.-movement steps for any creature to me.

Not sure how I feel about rating creatures with little or no ability to move unless attached to a creature. I think it's worth an asterisk. The cerebral hood had a fly speed of 20, at least.

I'll vote +3* and -0 respectively.

Rating symbionts is harder than I thought.

I only partly agree. The Sinew should definitely get an asterisk for that since it needs a willing host, but the Mind Leech has a much easier time of things once it can get over the initial hurdle. And that can be done fairly easily by letting it ride on the party beatstick until it can dominate something.

I'll say +3 and -0* for now.

The asterisk is not necessarily 'this will be tricky to normally use'. It denotes 'this has an ability that would be completely broken if allowed, and the rating assumes you remove it'.

The problem with 'low movement speed' and 'has to find a host' is that there's no real trait to remove. Take away 1 ft. movement and... replace it with a basic human walking pace? Remove the symbiont's power restrictions when unattached? There's no obvious way to remove the problem!

Furthermore: we've rated monsters that wouldn't fit in most dungeons, monsters that need water to breathe, monsters that die from water, monsters that would get run out of any civilized place, and monsters that explode if you leave them out in the sun. None of those traits got them asterisk-ed, because the underlying assumption that they'd only be played in the campaigns that could accommodate them.

What monsters did get an asterisk? Those whose abilities would innately and effortlessly disrupt any campaign. A dryad can't be used in any campaign that involves 'going places'. A shadow can't be used in any campaign that involves interaction with humanoids. An efreet can't be used in any campaign that involves, well, the PCs having goals.

It's a subjective distinction, I admit. But it's not subjective to say that 'cannot move around very quickly unless using its inbuilt ability to override that' isn't on the same level as 'cannot go anywhere ever'. For that reason, I don't think any of these monsters is deserving of an asterisk.

[Thurbane]

Oh, fair enough. Didn't Dryad and Fossergrim have asterisks though? I thought being tied to a location would be a similar type of limitation to requiring a host.

I take your point - maybe -0 from me, then, for creatures that can't really function without a host?

[Debatra]

Considering Dryad was one of his listed examples of a thing that got an asterisk...

But yes, if we're treating the 1ft movement as at least allowing a square, then I'd go with +3 and -0.

[ixrisor]

Oh, fair enough. Didn't Dryad and Fossergrim have asterisks though? I thought being tied to a location would be a similar type of limitation to requiring a host.
I take your point - maybe -0 from me, then, for creatures that can't really function without a host?

The thing about requiring a host is - your entire party are viable hosts, as is anything you can scrounge up. A dog or pony bought with your starting equipment? Sure. That barkeeper who gave your party watered down beer? Why not? So long as one other member of the party trusts you, or you can find anything to ride on, you’re fine.

[Inevitability]

Oh, fair enough. Didn't Dryad and Fossergrim have asterisks though? I thought being tied to a location would be a similar type of limitation to requiring a host.

I take your point - maybe -0 from me, then, for creatures that can't really function without a host?

I view 'symbionts need a host' as something roughly akin to 'wizards need a component pouch'. Yes, you lose a significant chunk of power and versatility without, and realistically sometimes you won't have access to it, but those circumstances are rare, you perform at a decent level even when unattached (psion powers don't care how many fingers you have), and fixing the issue is often a matter of minutes.

Also, votes!

Mind leech:
+4: Morphic
+3: Anii, Efrate, Thurbane, Debatra, Sutr

Psionic Sinew:
+1: Morphic, Sutr
+0: Anii, Efrate
-0: Thurbane, Debatra

Near-unanimous +3 votes for the mind leech, a three-way tie resulting in +0 for the sinew.

[Inevitability]

Fiendish Symbiont, Fiendish Familiar

You're probably expecting a weird dog or cat, but no, it's a horrifying face that grafts itself to your flesh.

A brief note: fiendish symbionts come with a number of extra drawbacks. They slowly consume the wisdom of good-aligned hosts and drive them to evil in the process. They also impose severe social penalties while interacting with non-evil NPCs, even when those don't know about the symbiont. These shouldn't be an issue with the right host, but are worth taking into account nonetheless.

The fiendish familiar is Diminutive, with approximately zero positive traits while unattached. It has a small intelligence boost (all other stats are negative or neutral) and gives any spellcasting host extra bonuses. If the host is any kind of caster, they obtain bonus spells as if their relevant stat was two points higher (which can matter quite a bit: a stat of 18 gets increased to 20, meaning early-game casters get an extra level 1 spell).

Additionally, wizard familiars can learn an additional spell whenever they access a new spell level with a familiar attached. There's probably a loophole here involving level drain and gain, but 1. that loophole might already exist for regular wizards and 2. it's not like wizards were lacking ways to learn new spells.

What LA to assign? The fiendish familiar's chassis is fine for a caster: spell-sharing, targeting protection, and the intelligence boost are all useful. In a party with another spellcaster, it additionally serves as a minor power booster, who unlike many other symbionts doesn't harm their host. That said, +0 LA should probably be fine: slightly buffing a friendly caster is less powerful than stat boosts or a free feat, and for optimal utilization you'd need to double down on arcane casters. I would definitely consider a fiendish familiar as my character, but I wouldn't automatically take it over a grey elf or human.

That said, the inability to change hosts or survive if the initial one dies makes an asterisk fitting here, and DMs should allow for a way to persist after such an occasion (granting it limited independence, or allowing some kind of 'mundane' grafting to transplant the familiar, at the very least).

[danielxcutter]

Ignoring the actual LA for now, I find the name of this one rather ironic considering that you can get an actual fiendish familiar(as in a familiar with the fiendish template) already. In Core.

Also I forget, do these help Sorcerers?

[Efrate]

+0. Its meh.

[Thurbane]

I view 'symbionts need a host' as something roughly akin to 'wizards need a component pouch'. Yes, you lose a significant chunk of power and versatility without, and realistically sometimes you won't have access to it, but those circumstances are rare, you perform at a decent level even when unattached (psion powers don't care how many fingers you have), and fixing the issue is often a matter of minutes.

I take your point, but acquiring and maintaining a 5gp easily replaceable item vs. an entire separate entity are a little different for me.

Anyhow, happy to agree to disagree.

Also I forget, do these help Sorcerers?

Only fluff-wise. They can act as a "source" for your new spells known per level. You know, the ones that you get automatically anyway.

The do provide a virtual +2 to your casting stat, though. Wizards definitely get better use from them. Funnily enough, it specifically calls out Wizards, so technically other arcane casters with spell books don't get the same benefit.

On to the LA...

Fiendish Familiar: no move speed, no attacks, 60 ft darkvision, telepathy (no range listed?), Str -8, Dex -6, Int +2, Wis -2, Cha -4. No digits or any other physcial means of interacting with anything; at least they can speak. I have no issues calling this LA -0. IMHO, they are about as playable as a knowstone.

[danielxcutter]

Isn’t “needs a host” more like “water in an aquatic campaign”?

[Thurbane]

Isn’t “needs a host” more like “water in an aquatic campaign”?

Well, if a creature is completely reliant on water to function, then yes. Again, I look at the Dryad example. Sure, there are ways to get around your reliance on your tree, but it was considered noteworthy enough for an asterisk in that case.

I'm happy to roll with majority opinion, so I didn't worry about an asterisk in my last rating - but I personally consider completely and utter reliance on another being in order to function noteworthy. I mean in most cases, a symbiont should be OK to use another PC as a ride, or an animal companion or similar.

Fiendish Familiar, in particular, should have no issues convincing the party wizard or other caster to host it, for mutual benefits. The ones that drain ability scores, though, may be more of an issue.

[Dalmosh]

Even the Psionic Sinew can move by itself, and can theoretically unattach itself from a dead host and crawl away by itself. It can readily attach to willing party members if it needs to, or try to convince NPCs to accept it.

This one explicitly needs to be grafted on to the host by a specially trained fiend (or a fleshwarper, or "gifted" by a Fiend of Corruption) in order to attach to a host. If it's host dies it's stuck to a corpse with no way to free itself. I don't think that's sensibly playable.

+0*

[Inevitability]

Fiendish Symbiont, Gutworm

The gutworm manages to be both less practical and more disgusting than any of the previous symbionts. It's a 2-feet worm that freely swims through its host's bowels (somehow without causing the mother of all intestinal blockages).

It has no natural weapons and pretty terrible stats (constitution gets +2, everything else is neutral or negative). A gutworm host must consume twice as much food and gets penalties on a bunch of long-term endurance activities. The gutworm's benefits include a +2 constitution bonus, the ability to neutralize poisons once per day, and the ability to induce Rage in its host at-will.

Though these abilities are pretty cool, being confined to someone's intestines is pretty limiting, and essentially shoehorn the gutworm into being some kind of wisdom-based fulltime buffer, and even if it commits to that role a human will probably have been a better choice (getting to affect anything other than one party member beats Rage).

On top of that, there's the lack of methods to transplant gutworms between hosts (with anything I can think of being both extremely gross and extremely impractical) and no-save instakill vulnerability to Remove Disease. In that light, I think -0* LA is the only fitting option here: the gutworm is not 'playable' in any practical sense, and even with accommodations made it'll still be very bad.

[Efrate]

-0* When you have a low level spell that's instagibs you no save it's not practical. Plus it does not really have a clear path.

[Falontani]

I have a stupid Windrider silverwood arcanist build that would hilarious to use with this, but....
-0 my first ever vote.

[Thurbane]

Hangry Tapeworm: 5 ft move, no natural attacks, Darkvision 60 ft (enjoy your view from inside someone's bowels); +2 to host Con; let host rage as a 1st level Barbarian at will, no fatigue afterwards (could be really nice for the right rage-based build); killed by Remove Disease; host needs to eat more; host gets some endurance related penalties; Neutralize Poison on host 1/day; no limbs; doesn't speak; Str -6, Dex -6, Con +2, Int -6, Cha -4.

More than happy to agree with LA -0* here. No clear progression path, and will encounter difficulties as a caster (no hands, and may not be able to speak verbal components, depending on your reading of their fluff). Maybe psionics? As noted, with no line of effect, may be limited to buffing your host.

Could be quite beneficial for the right host, though. If you have abilities that only activate while raging, you have an unlimited source. The drawbacks of this symbiont are relatively minor in the grand scheme of things.

[unseenmage]

Hangry Tapeworm: 5 ft move, no natural attacks, Darkvision 60 ft (enjoy your view from inside someone's bowels); +2 to host Con; let host rage as a 1st level Barbarian at will, no fatigue afterwards (could be really nice for the right rage-based build); killed by Remove Disease; host needs to eat more; host gets some endurance related penalties; Neutralize Poison on host 1/day; no limbs; doesn't speak; Str -6, Dex -6, Con +2, Int -6, Cha -4.

More than happy to agree with LA -0* here. No clear progression path, and will encounter difficulties as a caster (no hands, and may not be able to speak verbal components, depending on your reading of their fluff). Maybe psionics? As noted, with no line of effect, may be limited to buffing your host.

Could be quite beneficial for the right host, though. If you have abilities that only activate while raging, you have an unlimited source. The drawbacks of this symbiont are relatively minor in the grand scheme of things.

Should be noted that there are creatures whose bowels can be found on their outside. Zombies could easily and mohrg explicitly do.

[danielxcutter]

Hangry Tapeworm: 5 ft move, no natural attacks, Darkvision 60 ft (enjoy your view from inside someone's bowels); +2 to host Con; let host rage as a 1st level Barbarian at will, no fatigue afterwards (could be really nice for the right rage-based build); killed by Remove Disease; host needs to eat more; host gets some endurance related penalties; Neutralize Poison on host 1/day; no limbs; doesn't speak; Str -6, Dex -6, Con +2, Int -6, Cha -4.

More than happy to agree with LA -0* here. No clear progression path, and will encounter difficulties as a caster (no hands, and may not be able to speak verbal components, depending on your reading of their fluff). Maybe psionics? As noted, with no line of effect, may be limited to buffing your host.

Could be quite beneficial for the right host, though. If you have abilities that only activate while raging, you have an unlimited source. The drawbacks of this symbiont are relatively minor in the grand scheme of things.

Hangry Tapeworm

*hysterical giggles*

[Rockphed]

*hysterical giggles*

Having just read all eight threads, thurbane's breakdowns are one of the best parts of this thread.

[Falontani]

Having just read all eight threads, thurbane's breakdowns are one of the best parts of this thread.

That and Inevitability's Inevitable puns. Not the creature, the fact that he will do them. 100% agreed.

[Inevitability]

Fiendish Symbiont, Soul Tick

Most of the strange traits of this tick shouldn't come as a surprise: Fine size, abysmal speed, and a weak bite attack that does nothing but attach it to a host. The tick has a respectable stat array, with large bonuses to Dexterity and Intelligence, a small Charisma penalty, and terrible Strength: not bad for an arcane caster (or psion) of some kind.

The tick's effects on its host are worth mentioning: it causes a permanent -1 constitution reduction (with the option to overfeed and deal more damage, but that's rather pointless), automatically Empowers all Death, Evil, and negative energy spells (note that a number of metamagic feats can turn any spell into a valid target, often with only 1 or 2 level increases in addition to their regular effects), and potentially prevents Good, Chaos, and positive energy spells from working.

Additionally, the soul tick shrouds itself and its host in a Protection from Good and Chaos aura, which is extremely useful for all the reasons that Protection is useful. Finally, it makes its host a valid target for evil-targeting spells like Holy Smite.

The soul tick makes for a reasonable caster, and while its effects on a host are somewhat of a mixed bag, it can definitely be useful in the right party. Free Protection is surprisingly strong, so are shared spells, and the tick can switch hosts more easily than some other symbionts (cough gutworm cough). +1 LA should be fine.

[Thurbane]

Soul tick: fine outsider, 1 RHD; 5 ft speed; non-damaging bite; darkvision 60 ft; telepathy (again, no range listed - is it with the host only?); attach on a bite; drain 1 point of Con/day, or 1d4 to punish the host; empower the hosts spells with the death or evil desciptor, or that use negative energy; impede magic with the chaos or good descriptor, or that use positive energy; constant protection from good or chaos; host is vulnerable to holy attacks as if it were evil; Str -10, Dex +6, Int +4, Cha -2. The don't speak, but understand Infernal. No manipulative digits. Could it use a mouth-pick weapon?

I'll grudgingly give this one an LA +0. Again, I'm guessing some kind of psionic class would be the best progression; or maybe Warlock or DFA?

Their Enhance Magic ability would work well for a caster with the Corrupt Spell feat, or a Diabolist. Even for someone like a Dread Necro.

[edit] Just double checked; telpathy is with host only:

Telepathy (Su): A fiendish symbiont can communicate telepathically with its host creature, if the host has a language.

[danielxcutter]

Huh isn’t continuous Protection from [Alignment] essentially Mind Blank-lite? Not quite as comprehensive against mind-affecting spells and doesn’t protect against scrying at all, but since it totally shut downs enemy compulsions and those tend to be the most devastating in that category by far...

[Blue Jay]

I agree with LA +0 for the soul tick. Honestly, with how weird the symbionts are, I thought a symbiont PC would create an interesting addition to a party, but the mechanics on these just aren't as interesting as I originally thought: it seems like just refluffing a standard-race character would be just as interesting as using one of these (unless you really want to do the host-switching thing a lot)

[Sutr]

Deciding not to vote, but how is a creature that shares spells with another pc not worth LA?

[danielxcutter]

Deciding not to vote, but how is a creature that shares spells with another pc not worth LA?

Because there’s a limit as to how much power such spells can give, I presume.

I mean I think there’s a cheese build for that but still.

[Morphic tide]

I'll stick to my opinion of the spell-sharing giving a minimum "base load" of ECL 3, and think the Soul Tick still fits for this even as they mess with healing. As explained previously about save bonuses and Psionics, ability score bonuses and allowance to totally focus on Manifesting ability will allow for the scaling save-based Powers to be considerably cheaper for improved effect, so a Telepath or Egoist will generally last longer if they're leveraging their save bonuses, and physically are a free HP bank for Empathic Transfer and Share Pain in most situations to reduce PP expenditure on Body Adjustment, which is also copied on the host.

[Efrate]

Fractional HD become full HD with class levels right? This is a very good psion base. Size plus just partial cover and protection gives you a base AC of at least 22 when attached. At low levels that's pretty obscene. If it had blindsight and/or the capability of speech (pearl of speech maybe work? it has a mouth.) I would make this a snap +3 or more. Its very good as a psion. I still do not think I could justify anything less than a +2. I wish we had more information about its telepathy. It is somewhat pigeonholed into a very high tier class, but it can be VERY good and near untouchable as said class. just attach with tour head poking above an ear and you can very easily break near any LoE by having host turn head slightly to the side.

[Blue Jay]

Well, the views on the soul tick are apparently quite disparate, so I want to revisit my vote. I don't really see it as very powerful. Sure, it's got a +4 to Int and it's Fine size, which make for a nice psion; and you can make warlock or DFA work (though it's not necessarily good for that purpose). But, it's really dependent on a host for mobility and for doing other mundane tasks like opening doors and carrying things. Plus, I think a host is always going to be a major liability, except where you do something like use a Leadership cohort as your host (but that has more to do with Leadership being an overpowered feat than with the power of the soul tick in particular). And I don't really know how its body slots for magic items will play out.

I guess it's not really a net-zero ability bundle, so I suppose I should vote for LA +1 or something, but I'm just not sure. I certainly wouldn't go higher than that.

[Inevitability]

Votes on the hell tick:

+0: 1 vote
+1: 1 vote
+2: 2 votes

Morphic's vote was a bit unclear but I think +1 is a fair compromise here, will update the entry.