The LA-assignment thread IX: I have no mouth and I must S,V,M

[Inevitability]

Fiendish Symbiont, Ghostly Visage

You might be aware of these monsters if you've ever played a Dread Necromancer, or if your DM opened the Fiend Folio from the wrong side. Essentially, it's a small incorporeal spirit that can bond with other creatures, providing them with some very cool abilities.

Unlike most other symbionts, the ghostly visage is not dead weight without a host. It can't deal damage, but it has incorporeality, a perfect fly speed, solid Dexterity/Intelligence/Charisma bonuses, bonuses to Bluff and Intimidate, and free Alertness, meaning that it makes for an interesting skillmonkey/scout.

By touching a corporeal creature (who's allowed a Will save to resist), the visage can meld with it. It's unclear to what extent it remains a separate creature, but I'd rule that it's both autonomous and lacking line of effect to anything, similarly to the gutworm. Unlike the gutworm, the visage can manifest on its host's body as a fleshy-looking incorporeal mask (which its host can see through fine), allowing it to act normally, and most notably enabling its Gaze of Terror (an AoE paralyzing gaze that doesn't grant immunity on saves and can be used at-will). Additionally, the visage's host gets immunity to Mind-Affecting effects.

The visage is a tiny incorporeal caster chassis that can also spread status, disappear into a party member when necessary, and grant said party member a very useful immunity. I think +2 LA is the very minimum here, and +3 might be more appropriate. For now, I'll play it safe and go with the second option.

[liquidformat]

so no STR or Con score Dex +4, Int +2, Wis -2, Cha +6 net 8, no turn res is an issue and I assume possessing someone has no effect on your ability to be turned since didn't see anything otherwise. With only 1 rhd seems like a great arcane caster choice better on cha based casters but still very good on int based ones too though not having hands might be an issue... Still on the fence about LA will hold off to see others thoughts first.

[Efrate]

+3 easy. Incorporealness alone is worth at least +1, stats are enough for another +1, and the SoL no immunity on success gaze is at least another.

[liquidformat]

+3 easy. Incorporealness alone is worth at least +1, stats are enough for another +1, and the SoL no immunity on success gaze is at least another.

I am honestly not convinced the gaze attack is worth an LA heck past level 5 I think it is trash and wouldn't be even worth mentioning if it weren't a free action to use. The base save is 13 and it is unclear if that is just 13 or 10+cha mod either well it isn't going to age well.

[Thurbane]

♫ Aaah, we fade to grey (fade to grey) ♫

This one's worth a full breakdown IMHO:

• Tiny Undead (Incorporeal, Symbiont).
• 1 RHD, which will be swapped out for class levels.
• Fly 10 ft (perfect).
• Darkvision 60 ft.
• Gaze of terror: 30 ft gaze attack, save or be paralyzed for 1d4 rounds. Not called out as mind affecting or a fear effect, but seems like it would be. Very powerful at will attack. The DC is low, but I can't help but feel it should be tied to HD; since the creature is listed as having no advancement, they seem to have just listed a static number. Even with a low DC, a lot of enemies have poor will saves, and everyone rolls a 1 at some point.
• Incorporeal subtype: a lot of benefits, mainly defensive, but also some drawbacks.
• Incorporeal touch: which seems to only be used to meld.
• Meld: Disappear into a host.
• Mind shielding: the host gets pseudo Mind Blank. Nice.
• Undead traits: all the usual great immunities, and some drawbacks.
• Visage: peek out from your host.
• Str -, Dex +4, Con -, Int +2, Wis -2, Cha +6: net +10, with two non-abilities.
• Alertness as a bonus feat: not a great feat, but a bonus feat is a bonus feat, and it is a pretty common req for a number of things.

No manipulative digits to speak of. They can speak. Being incorporeal has some great benefits, but also has some drawbacks, primarily gear related, and interacting with the physical world - some of which is ameliorated by having a host, I guess.

This would definitely be the strongest of the symbionts here, IMHO. As pointed out, quite capable of acting independently. An incorporeal form without limbs or digits will have it's share of problems (hard imagining body slots for this guy), but you should have no major issues progressing as a caster, psionic type, DFA, Warlock or similar.

I'll go along with LA +3 for now, but I could also see +2.

[Falontani]

Gaze of Terror is a Supernatural ability.

Supernatural: Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance. Supernatural abilities cannot be dispelled. Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise. Supernatural abilities may have a use limit or be usable at will, just like spell-like abilities. However, supernatural abilities do not provoke attacks of opportunity and never require Concentration checks. Unless otherwise noted, a supernatural ability has an effective caster level equal to the creature’s Hit Dice.
The saving throw (if any) against a supernatural ability is 10 + 1/2 the creature’s HD + the creature’s ability modifier (usually Charisma).

Charisma is the only ability score that would allow the DC to reach 13 based on the creature, thus it is 10 +1/2 HD + cha mod. A scaling DC on a powerful AoE ability. The Meld ability follows a similar pattern.
Next up, it seems like it qualifies as a Gaze Attack. Meaning all Gaze rules and feats can apply. The ability causes Paralysis, which may mean that it qualifies as a paralyzing attack (I certainly would allow it). So the following feats all apply to this creature's spammable gaze attack:
Ability Focus: Paralysis, Ability Focus: Gaze (these two probably don't stack with each other)
Irresistible Gaze, Narrowed Gaze, Piercing Gaze
Improved Paralysis, Contagious Paralysis

So we can reach a DC 16 + 1/2 HD + Cha Mod. We can use it as a standard action against a targeted creature to force an additional save. If a creature fails its save then they become an additional vector for the paralysis.
Finally we can use Sudden Ability Focus, Extend Supernatural Ability, and Widen Supernatural Ability to further increase the effects, albeit this is expensive as they are once/day each.

Finally this ability is Fear affect (and probably mind affecting). So immunity will be... easy to find. But Dread Witch is a natural progression for the creature if you can enter (the only way for this creature to be feared is via Turn Undead, Chill Touch, or another dread witch). I would love to see the conversation between this creature and a cleric, "I want to experience fear, please channel your god's power in front of me." "Are you crazy? The power of my god will turn you to dust!" "Please?"

I can see LA +3 as being fair. If the player does not use the gaze to it's potential then it is probably +2. The real question is what you would compare it against, and it compares favorably against a spellcaster at low levels, not so much at level 17... Of course what does?

[Rockphed]

I am officially agnostic on the LA for the evil face. I honestly don't think I have any idea to do with one. That said, this is probably thing sorcerer. At +3 it loses 9ths and is a level and a half behind other sorcerers. Is the gaze, getting all the best parts of incorporeality, and the stats worth +3?

[Caelestion]

Given the +6 Charisma? Probably, yes.

[Blue Jay]

I think I'm going to vote LA +2 for the ghostly visage. I'm a little concerned about giving incorporeality at low levels, but I don't think +3 is necessary here. The ghostly visage is probably the most playable of the symbionts in the book, because it's a little bit better at operating independently from a host, because of its fly speed. But it still can't really do anything on its own, so most of its abilities end up being passive and defensive in nature. On the other hand, when attached to a host, it doesn't penalize the host, but it gives some nice passive advantages to its host, and also gains a special attack of its own; so to me, it's definitely the most versatile symbiont in the book.

But, it will take a bit of investment from the player to get around the lack of physical manipulators, and the slow speed, and the Wisdom penalty, so I think it's okay to let it play at LA +2.

[liquidformat]

so plus side gaze attack, grants immunities to others, can attach to others, has a nice set of immunities, incorporeal

minuses movement speed is very slow, low hp, can't manipulate anything, missing most item slots, issues using items even if it has the slots, somatic components to spells.

Over all I think it is pretty well balanced at +2 after hearing everything.

[Inevitability]

Votes:

+2: 2 votes
+3: 3 votes

LA will remain at +3.

[Inevitability]

Unrelated to the ghostly visage: we're officially done with the Fiend Folio now.

Normally this would be the time when I asked people to recommend or vote on future books to cover. Sadly, over the past months my interest in this thread (as well as 3.5 in general) has greatly declined, and I figure it's time to call this thread quits.

The past 4.5 years, nine threads, and six books have been extremely fun to cover. D&D's many creative, broken, or just plain weird monsters were an amazing source of entertainment, and I can only hope that this thread has been useful to people looking to play them in their campaigns.

If anyone else wants to take over this project, I will gladly share pastes of the archive posts and help them on their way in any other necessary manner.

Thanks to everyone who's ever contributed to this project, and good gaming.

[danielxcutter]

Unrelated to the ghostly visage: we're officially done with the Fiend Folio now.

Normally this would be the time when I asked people to recommend or vote on future books to cover. Sadly, over the past months my interest in this thread (as well as 3.5 in general) has greatly declined, and I figure it's time to call this thread quits.

The past 4.5 years, nine threads, and six books have been extremely fun to cover. D&D's many creative, broken, or just plain weird monsters were an amazing source of entertainment, and I can only hope that this thread has been useful to people looking to play them in their campaigns.

If anyone else wants to take over this project, I will gladly share pastes of the archive posts and help them on their way in any other necessary manner.

Thanks to everyone who's ever contributed to this project, and good gaming.

It's a shame to see you go, but good luck in your future endeavors! You'll be sorely missed.

[Blue Jay]

Your dedication to this project had been pretty unprecedented. Thanks for this, Inevitability. Good luck in your future endeavors.

[Efrate]

Good luck in your future endeavors! It has been fun! If anyone takes up the mantle and continues do not be a stranger.

[Debatra]

It's been fun. Hopefully it will continue to be.

If someone else wants to step up, my vote for next book will be Libris Mortis.

If nobody else wants to step up, I guess I could try. Though I want to emphasize that I only want to if nobody else wants the job. I'm not entirely sure I'd do it justice, though I'd rather it be a little poorer than letting it die.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Thanks Inevitability! Your archives are of great use in our legacy games.

If this does continue LM would be cool.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Sad to see you go, but it was definitely a good run!

[Remuko]

Sad to see you go, but I understand. I wasnt comfortable rating the symbionts so I had been biding my time waiting for the next book. If this is where it ends, It's been a satisfying run. I suppose like your username, it was an Inevitability that it would come to this (tho you were still a Dire_Stirge iirc when this project started :P )

[Thurbane]

Unrelated to the ghostly visage: we're officially done with the Fiend Folio now.

Normally this would be the time when I asked people to recommend or vote on future books to cover. Sadly, over the past months my interest in this thread (as well as 3.5 in general) has greatly declined, and I figure it's time to call this thread quits.

The past 4.5 years, nine threads, and six books have been extremely fun to cover. D&D's many creative, broken, or just plain weird monsters were an amazing source of entertainment, and I can only hope that this thread has been useful to people looking to play them in their campaigns.

If anyone else wants to take over this project, I will gladly share pastes of the archive posts and help them on their way in any other necessary manner.

Thanks to everyone who's ever contributed to this project, and good gaming.

Thanks for all of your great work. I have massively enjoyed this series of threads.

[Batcathat]

Despite not having taken part of the discussions (apart from maybe a sarcastic quip or two), I have enjoyed these threads (I only started following them about a year ago but I went back and read through much of the archive) and appreciate the effort. Well done.

[Unavenger]

It's been fun. Hopefully it will continue to be.

If someone else wants to step up, my vote for next book will be Libris Mortis.

If nobody else wants to step up, I guess I could try. Though I want to emphasize that I only want to if nobody else wants the job. I'm not entirely sure I'd do it justice, though I'd rather it be a little poorer than letting it die.

I think you'd do a good job, if that helps.

[liquidformat]

Thanks Inevitability for this project, its been wonderful!

[No brains]

Ah, so I see that the thread title was saved for now because this announcement is just as distressing. Well played.

Thank you for all the effort making jokes out of silly statistics around the game. I'm glad we got to play your idea as far as we did and I'm impressed at the level of work you put into this. Thanks for keeping 3.5 alive for me too.

[Luccan]

I don't think I've done much to help the threads but it's been very useful and fun. Thanks Inevitability. Your dedication is admirable and I wish you luck in your future endeavors

[Blue Jay]

It's been fun. Hopefully it will continue to be.

If someone else wants to step up, my vote for next book will be Libris Mortis.

If nobody else wants to step up, I guess I could try. Though I want to emphasize that I only want to if nobody else wants the job. I'm not entirely sure I'd do it justice, though I'd rather it be a little poorer than letting it die.

If you want to pick up the reins, I'd support you. I feel like Thurbane would be another excellent choice to lead.

And, if this is going to continue, Libris Mortis seems good to me too.

[Thurbane]

If you want to pick up the reins, I'd support you. I feel like Thurbane would be another excellent choice to lead.

And, if this is going to continue, Libris Mortis seems good to me too.

I also support Debatra. I'd love to take over, but I'm afraid I don't really have the time to dedicate at the moment.

Happy with Libris Mortis as well. I think we should get the smaller books out of the way before tackling the other MMs and big stuff.

[Dalmosh]

I seldom post here as my crunch mastery is too geared to low-level play to be very relevant in most cases, but this thread content is one of my favourite 3.5 related things on the internet.

I was really hoping to see Libris Mortis next too, and I'd be thrilled if somebody wanted to step up and keep Inevitability's train rolling.

[unseenmage]

So long and thanks for all the fish-monsters, among others.
One if my fav threads to lurk. Your work's been appreciated.

[Debatra]

I also support Debatra. I'd love to take over, but I'm afraid I don't really have the time to dedicate at the moment.

Happy with Libris Mortis as well. I think we should get the smaller books out of the way before tackling the other MMs and big stuff.

Gotta be honest; I was really hoping you'd want to take over. Your breakdowns have been invaluable. Though for that same reason, your vote of confidence means a lot.

Okay, fine then. I'll give it a few days for others to chime in; but if there are no objections, I'll be taking us forward with Libris Mortis.

New year, new book, new guy at the helm, same old broken monsters.