Sorlock vs. Sorcadin vs. Padlock

[Greywander]

I'm curious what people think of these builds, how they differ from one another, and why you would pick one over another. Looking at these three classes, all three builds (and even the triple-classed "sorlockadin") seem similar in function if different in nuance. All three (four?) builds more or less make a gish (although a sorlock could also go pure caster/magic archer).

Here's what I see each class contributing to their respective builds:

Sorcerer

The main reasons to dip into sorcerer are for full casting and metamagic. The further you go into sorcerer, the more toward the caster end of the gish spectrum you lean, but those full caster spell slots can also be used to fuel smites, leading to some incredible damage output, beyond what a paladin or bladelock could normally sustain by themselves. Divine Soul and Shadow are probably the best subclasses, but any subclass is viable.

If you don't dip far enough into either paladin or bladelock for Extra Attack, you will of course want to pick up Booming Blade, but honestly you might want to get Booming Blade anyway. You can both twin and quicken Booming Blade, allowing you to get up to three off in a single turn for the low cost of only 3 sorcery points. Eventually, Booming Blade will be strong enough that it will have a better damage/sorcery point ratio than smiting will (if we converted the spell slot into sorcery points), though smiting will remain a good way to dump a lot of damage in a single round. Even a magic archer sorlock can grab Booming Blade as a backup for when Eldritch Blast is not optimal/viable.

Sorcerer is pretty flexible with regards to how far you dip. Common breakpoints seem to be: 3rd level for metamagic, 5th level for 3rd level spells, 10th level for 5th level spells and your third metamagic, 14th level for your subclass feature, and 17th/18th for 9th level spells, your final metamagic, and/or your subclass capstone.

Paladin

Paladin is a very strong class with lots of good features early on. The main things we're here for are armor and weapon proficiencies, a fighting style, and Divine Smite, not to mention a handful of useful divine spells like Bless or Shield of Faith. If sorcerer shifts you more toward the caster side of gish, you might think that the deeper you dip into paladin, the more toward the martial end of the gish spectrum you'd lean, but this isn't entirely true. Damage output will be more or less the same, and is arguably higher with more spell slots for smites. No, what you gain by dipping further into paladin is defense. More HP, better saves, and (if Ancients paladin) damage reduction.

Paladin has some obvious breakpoints for multiclassing: 2nd level gets you your smites and weapon/armor proficiencies, 6th level for Aura of Protection and Extra Attack, 7th level gets you a subclass feature (Aura of Warding from Oath of the Ancients is well worth it), and 11th level gets you Improved Divine Smite. If you're not sticking with paladin all the way to 20, then there's not really a compelling reason to go beyond 11.

Warlock

And by warlock, I of course mean Hexblade. Even a magic archer sorlock would still benefit from the armor proficiencies, though a different patron would also be viable, if not as optimized. Warlock is an eccentric class, so you're probably here for one of the many abilities that are unique to warlocks, specifically (as opposed to the paladin, which shares many aspects with fighters and clerics, or the sorcerer, which shares a lot with wizards). Although, let's be honest: you're probably here specifically for Eldritch+Agonizing Blast, Devil's Sight+Darkness, and using CHA for weapon attacks.

Warlock has some obvious early breakpoints, but like sorcerer, gets flexible if you dip deeper into it. Common breakpoints include: 1st level for Hex Warrior, 2nd level for Agonizing Blast and Devil's Sight, 3rd level for the pact boon (Chain or Blade; Chain's good if you stop at 3, Blade is good if you go to at least 12), 9th level for those 5th level pact magic slots, 11th level for three pact magic slots, 14th level for patron capstone.

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Given all these options, I can see the appeal for playing one of these hybrid builds. I can see how each combo gives you slightly different things, but some of these differences seem subtle enough that I'm not sure which one appeals to me the most. How accurate is my analysis? What's your experience playing one of these? How do each of these perform in play?

Bonus question: if we had INT-based warlocks, what would wizlocks and artlocks look like, and how different would they be from sorlocks and padlocks, respectively? I feel like the loss of metamagic and spell-slot-based smites would change a lot, and Battle Smith would be partially redundant with Hexblade (but this frees you up to choose a different subclass for either one).

[Benny89]

Depends what you want really:

Pure Paladin - nice mix of passive patry support, tank and Nova when needed (but limited). No real viable range damage. Little MAD (DEX + CHA + CON or STR + CHA + CON). Anti-fear Aura is great but once you party has access to Heroes Feast - it's useless. There are also some nice "playstyles" that you can do with some Oaths: like control with fear aura Conquest (but useless vs enemies immune to fear, which is quite a long list), PAM GWM Vengeance on Greater Steed as pure DPS etc. But It's again limited in many cases.

EDIT: Forgot to add- Find Greater Steed is great and Improved D.Smite is nice DPR increase especially with PAM. But so is Life Drinker for example.

Padlock - Vengeance/Hexblade especially - crit fisher with big double crit smites. Can nova more during normal encounters due to short-rest recharging slots, but can nova less than Paladin or Sorcadin in boss fight due to less maximum slots per one combat. SAD CHA and good utility like access to summoned magical weapon +1, invocations (a lot of possible utility here) and access to best spammable range attack Agonizing Eldricht Blast 120 feet range. REQUIRES that you DM respects 2 short rests per 1 long rest minimum or there is no point doing this build. Life Drinker is nice boost but very very late (6/14 split and it's 18th level feature suddenly).

Sorcadin - imo the strongest of them. Meta Magic, cleric spells, sorc spells, more slots for Nova, Font of Magic, fireballs, spirit guardians, twin haste/fly, Shield + Abs.Elem. spells. Also little MAD without Hexblade dip. Once it's online it's almost unkillable and can provide buffs, AOE control/damage, range magic attacks and hard Nova on bosses. One of the strongest power-builds in 5e. You also get Shadow Blade, Spirit Weapon, Quicken Booming Blade and more goods.

All 3 are very good especially when min-maxed. So depends what you want and what you party needs and what they have.

[OldTrees1]

Multiclassing Warlock in a N:M ratio with another caster (any caster, it does not need to be Cha/Int) lets you sidegrade vancian daily casting into a slower short rest casting. This can be used to pretend to have interesting at-will abilities because you now have more uses in exchange for them not being as powerful.

A 5E Paladin / Warlock is like a 3E Crusader. I like a 4N-1 : 2N+1 ratio.
Artificer / Warlock would be similar but with a different theme. Upon review it might feel like Incarnum.
A 5E Sorcerer / Warlock is like a of 3E Warlock. An even N:N ratio works fine here.
Wizard / Warlock would be similar.

Sorcerer / Paladin often looks like the player forgot Paladins have a 3rd+ level. Warlocks, despite being a full caster, don't progress their pact magic vertically after 9th level. So multiclassing is encouraged / supported as an alternative to the new 11-17th arcanum subsystem. Sorcerers have a smoother design, so taking significant Paladin levels cuts into a subsystem you already have been focused on. This makes Sorcadins seem more like Sorcerers that dipped Paladin instead of a full multiclass. Those that commit to a multiclass might end up with Sorcerer 13/ Paladin 7 which lets them have a passive support buff (2 auras) and 3rd attack (when dual wielding and not using a cantrip attack), in exchange for losing 8th-9th level spells. But I think Sorcerer N-2/ Paladin 2 are more common.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Sorcadin's my general favorite, being really good at using the action economy and capable of doing a little bit of everything. Notably, it can also chuck an insane amount of damage at a target within two turns, albeit at a huge expenditure of resources. I think it has the best overall feel of the three.

Padlock is my friend's favorite build, stemming from the strength of all the invocations and how well it manages it's own resources. The themes seem awkward at first glance, but can be married in interesting ways when it isn't be outright ignored in favor of an interesting gameplay dynamic. It's both a lot more short rest friendly and also a lot more short rest dependent; I can certainly appreciate a padlock's strength, but unlike a sorcadin, it really needs games to play a certain way to get the most out of it.

The sorlock is a combo I frankly find unnecessary. I understand the power it brings, and in a lot of cases I think it's probably the strongest of these three. I just don't see why it's necessary. the other two at least vary the feel of your character considerably to do things you couldn't imitate otherwise. I've never seen it suggested in a way that would make for a better overall theme, either flavor-wise or for the sake of gameplay, just for overall raw power. It's the only one that carries a bit of a munchkin-y taste like that, though I'd be open to someone showing me something this does that resolves these issues.

[Pex]

Depends what you want really:

Pure Paladin - nice mix of passive patry support, tank and Nova when needed (but limited). No real viable range damage. Little MAD (DEX + CHA + CON or STR + CHA + CON). Anti-fear Aura is great but once you party has access to Heroes Feast - it's useless. There are also some nice "playstyles" that you can do with some Oaths: like control with fear aura Conquest (but useless vs enemies immune to fear, which is quite a long list), PAM GWM Vengeance on Greater Steed as pure DPS etc. But It's again limited in many cases.

EDIT: Forgot to add- Find Greater Steed is great and Improved D.Smite is nice DPR increase especially with PAM. But so is Life Drinker for example.

Heroes' Feast has a 1,000 gp component which gets consumed. The cleric is not casting this every day. It's good for the known BBEG fight that's coming up. For everyday use the Paladin Aura remains a useful benefit.

[XmonkTad]

The sorlock is a combo I frankly find unnecessary. I understand the power it brings, and in a lot of cases I think it's probably the strongest of these three. I just don't see why it's necessary. the other two at least vary the feel of your character considerably to do things you couldn't imitate otherwise. I've never seen it suggested in a way that would make for a better overall theme, either flavor-wise or for the sake of gameplay, just for overall raw power. It's the only one that carries a bit of a munchkin-y taste like that, though I'd be open to someone showing me something this does that resolves these issues.

Oh, Sorclock is my favorite of the multi classes by far. 1 level of hexblade can give you armour and gish potential, 2 levels can give you stellar long-range and at-will damage. But IMO, the benefit comes from the Book of Shadows invocation that a tomelock gets (or can get at 3rd). Sorcerers are super gimped on spells known. Having access to oodles of cantrips and every first and second level ritual spell is a huge amount of flexibility and it doesn't come at much of a price for the sorcerer side of things (you still get 9th level spells).

As for flavor or character feel, there's tons to sorclock as well. A Book of Ancient Secrets tome sorclock feels a bit like adding a wizard to a sorcerer. How does that feel in play? It feels more like you have answers to common questions where otherwise it was trying to get your few boxes of hammers to treat everything like a nail.

And there are tons of character RP options, but the archetype that comes to mind when I think sorclock is someone who has innate power, and feels the pull of an easy pact and the discipline to master their own inherent power. Could be really interesting to play a Divine Celestial sorclock who has chaotic good in their blood, but made a pact with a lawful good entity, and now has to deal with the guilt of always feeling sub-optimally good.

[Guy Lombard-O]

Asked this in one of the other paladin/sorcadin/etc. threads, but nobody bit:

Is it worth it for a primary paladin to dip one level of sorcerer for the cantrips (utility plus decent ranged attacks) and Absorb Elements+Shield(or Feather Fall if you're confident that FGS is likely)?

[XmonkTad]

Asked this in one of the other paladin/sorcadin/etc. threads, but nobody bit:

Is it worth it for a primary paladin to dip one level of sorcerer for the cantrips (utility plus decent ranged attacks) and Absorb Elements+Shield(or Feather Fall if you're confident that FGS is likely)?

I would not say it is worth it. The cantrips are nice, but a primary paladin doesn't get much from them (unless you're looking more for the utility like message or prestidigitation) because you get more offence and defense from MORE paladin. Paladin has fine ranged attacks with javelins, and dipping a level just for feather fall/shield/AE seems like a high cost. Magic Initiate seems like a better choice than a one level dip IMO.

[Hellpyre]

Asked this in one of the other paladin/sorcadin/etc. threads, but nobody bit:

Is it worth it for a primary paladin to dip one level of sorcerer for the cantrips (utility plus decent ranged attacks) and Absorb Elements+Shield(or Feather Fall if you're confident that FGS is likely)?

Not for a single level. You get better results dipping into Wizard or Warlock for just that little. I would recommend taking at least two levels of sorc if you want to dip, since font of magic can help you cast more higher-level slots if you want that, or convert high to low for more ability to spread smites out. Three is still probably the best point for just dipping, since it gets you metamagic, tue biggest selling point.

[Chugger]

Asked this in one of the other paladin/sorcadin/etc. threads, but nobody bit:

Is it worth it for a primary paladin to dip one level of sorcerer for the cantrips (utility plus decent ranged attacks) and Absorb Elements+Shield(or Feather Fall if you're confident that FGS is likely)?

If you're playing to 20 and you want the pal capstone (some are pretty good), it's not worth it.

If you don't care about losing the capstone, I think it is very worthwhile to get shield and absorb elements. I play a pal who 1-dipped hexblade to get shield and to be SAD, and having shield makes him insanely hard to hit. He has a +3 shield and +2 plate and a +1 ring of prot (sadly he took dueling for f.s.) - that's AC 26 which goes to 31 if he shields.

Obviously I think going 1 lvl of hexblade is better than going 1 lvl of sorc if you're using a one hand weapon. You don't get absorb ele but you do get Shield and Armor of Agathys. But going 1 lvl of sorc for Shield and Abso Ele is actually good.

[Gtdead]

These are my thoughts:

Sorlock:

I see this build as an exclusive caster. For Warlock I consider either Celestial or Hexblade as the optimal pick, and I view them as equal in power. While hexblade's curse is awesome, it uses a bonus action, which means one less quicken per combat, and it's 30 feet range, which is not where I want to be with my sorcerer. Celestial provides Sacred Flame. I don't know many monsters that have something like reflective carapace, but it's a written ability which means that some custom DM monsters may have it too. Sacred Flame is the only way to counter it.

For sorcerer, I consider subclasses with passive fly as the strongest for T4 (dragon and divine), and shadow as the strongest early.
The optimal split for me is Sorcerer 8 (max cha)/Warlock 2. From there on, either lock 3 first or sorc 17 first is fine for me. I don't have a strong preference for warlock's pact. I think both chain and tome are good options.

Of the three multiclasses, I view sorlock as the one having the best synergy. I'm fine with trading Animate Objects with EB because even though AO will do more damage, it's a high level spell and it's limited by range/damage type/weakness to aoe. EB can be cast from far away and it's more reliable.

For invocations, it's agonizing blast and Devil's Sight/Eldritch Spear/Repelling Blast depending on other choices. If warlock 3 first, Devil's Sight is the best. If vhuman with alert, Eldritch Spear. If vhuman with spell sniper, Repelling Blast. There are merits in all three options. My favorite is Alert+Spear.

Padlock:

I like only one build, and that's Hexblade 1/ Conquest Paladin X. Hex Warrior allows him to key completely of CHA and gives him an extra Wrathful Smite per short rest. Hexblade curse allows him to deal good damage when it's active and increases the chance to crit which scales with smites, so it's as close to advantage as it can get for 1h weapons. Focusing on CHA first gives him better spell DC, which is important for channel divinity, aura and Fear when he gets it.

I don't see any other synergy with the rest of the subclasses and even the hexblade/conquest isn't necessarily better than single classed Paladin on every level.

Sorcadin:

This build is close to my heart due to the survivability it offers. I personally prefer the Paladin 2/Sorcerer X split but there are great arguments for a lot of different configurations.

There is a whole topic discussing it so I don't want to go into detail cause I won't say anything new. I don't believe that Paladin 6 or 7/Sorcerer X split is a better smiter than straight paladin because the essence of the build lies in lvl 1 and 2 defensive spells from sorcerer and there won't be any slots left for many smites. The multiclass will have more slots earlier, but let's be honest: Assuming that we use all spells for smite, which isn't a likely scenario, A P7/Sorc X has about double the smite dice. While this sounds impressive, it's about 130 to 150 damage per day more. It's not super impressive, considering that single Paladin has improved smite at lvl 11 and will probably specialize more in offense. So damage isn't a consideration. But I call the Sorcadin the "Immortal god of 5e". I think it's the highest survivability build in this edition and has enough damage to be a threat.

As for subclasses, I think divine soul is the best by far. I wish divine soul was out when I played mine. I'd have picked SG at lvl 7 and it'd amazing.

If there was a INT variant of Paladin, I think an Abjurer/Paladin or a Bladesinger/Paladin would be great gish builds, but I'm not sure if it would work better overall. I'd have to research a bit to answer this, but sorcerer's metamagic give a lot of value, especially in the Pal2/CasterX split.

I don't however think that warlock with INT would work well with Wizard.

[Deathtongue]

For a melee attacker, I personally don't care much for the Pal 2 / Sorcerer X split unless your DM lets you play the oldschool Favored Soul. SCAG cantrips increasingly do not cut the mustard in a post-Xanathar's world as a replacement for Extra Attack. I know it's considered CharOP orthodoxy to assume that you don't get magical items and to theorize/build your character appropriately, but I just don't find that a reasonable assumption for game balance. 80% of home games (and every AL game) I've played in T2 onwards are reasonably generous with magical items. And even if they aren't, Shadow Blade by itself blows any melee build that doesn't have Extra Attack out of the water.

[RogueJK]

Is it worth it for a primary paladin to dip one level of sorcerer for the cantrips (utility plus decent ranged attacks) and Absorb Elements+Shield(or Feather Fall if you're confident that FGS is likely)?

Sometimes. If your Charisma is high enough to be able to successfully utilize damage cantrips, it's a good way to shore up the Paladin's main weakness against ranged/flying enemies. But if all you're after is these cantrips, you can get that through Magic Initiate.

The other benefits of the 1 level of Sorcerer over Magic Initiate are appealing, though. You get two extra cantrips and an extra 1st level spell compared to Magic Initiate, and additional castings of those 1st level spells beyond 1x/day. And higher level spell slots are nothing to sniff at, since they're handy for smiting or upcasting. There are other potential benefits from your Sorcerer Bloodline too. Draconic, Wild, or Storm don't get you many useful benefits, but 1 level of Divine Soul or Shadow Sorcerer presents some nice additional benefits.

Divine Soul gets you wider access to Cleric cantrips like the always-handy Guidance, and a nice failed saving throw "get out of jail free" card with Favored by the Gods. You can also use the free spell known (like Bless/Protection from Good or Evil) to free up a Paladin prepared spell for something else higher level, if that's a spell that your Paladin would normally prepare anyway.

Shadow Sorcerer gets you 120 foot Darkvision, which is nice for a Human or Halfling. And Strength of the Grave is handy for frontline combatants to avoid going unconscious, similar to the Half-Orc racial ability. Overall not quite as good as Divine Soul, but could still be handy if you're the only member of your party without Darkvision, for example.


I agree that Shield and Absorb Elements are usually going to be your best bet for 1st level spell choices for a 1 level Sorcerer dip. They not only add to your defense, but they give the Paladin something to do with their Reactions, which many Paladins are lacking (barring things like a Crown or Redemption Paladin, or a Paladin with Polearm Master). However, you might also consider something like Healing Word, if you're dipping Divine Soul Sorcerer and your party lacks someone else who can cast that to get unconscious allies back on their feet.


It also partly depends on when you dip. Paladin has a lot of benefits in the early levels that you don't really want to delay, and thrown weapons alone can get you by for the first Tier or so, but I think multiclassing into Sorcerer after Paladin 6 is a good option for some Paladin builds, even if you're just taking a 1 level dip and not going to go full-blown Sorcadin. Level 7+ is also the time when you start running into more flying/ranged enemies, and cantrips have doubled in damage by then, so it's an all-around good time to add them in.

Not for a single level. You get better results dipping into Wizard or Warlock for just that little.

Unless you happen to be playing in a high power group whose DM lets you make boosted stat rolls (like 4d6 drop the lowest and reroll 1s), I think you'd be hard-pressed to build a Paladin with Wizard dip that would have a high enough INT to take advantage of Wizard attack cantrips, or even just meet the multiclassing requirement of INT 13+, without pulling too much from their more important stats. (Paladins are already MAD enough, needing a good STR and CHA and decent CON.) Even if manage to get up to a 13-16ish INT, you'd still be limited to utility cantrips since your INT modifier won't be competitive at higher level play, and your ASIs will need to be going towards STR/CHA anyway.

And unlike the Sorcerer or Warlock who gets additional subclass abilities at 1st level, you don't really get much else from a 1 level Wizard dip besides a handful of additional spells and slots.

The Sorcerer or Warlock gets those and more, plus don't require worrying about an additional stat.

[sithlordnergal]

Asked this in one of the other paladin/sorcadin/etc. threads, but nobody bit:

Is it worth it for a primary paladin to dip one level of sorcerer for the cantrips (utility plus decent ranged attacks) and Absorb Elements+Shield(or Feather Fall if you're confident that FGS is likely)?

Ehhh, I'd probably take a level of Warlock over Sorcerer if you want a single level dip. Hexblades get to have Shield on their spell list, you get an excellent ranged cantrip, you'll be able to become SAD, and you gain a spell slot that comes back on a Short Rest. Taking two levels of Warlock is even better because now you'll have two 1st level spell slots and Invocations.

[Hellpyre]

Unless you happen to be playing in a high power group whose DM lets you make boosted stat rolls (like 4d6 drop the lowest and reroll 1s), I think you'd be hard-pressed to build a Paladin with Wizard dip that would have a high enough INT to take advantage of Wizard attack cantrips, or even just meet the multiclassing requirement of INT 13+, without pulling too much from their more important stats. (Paladins are already MAD enough, needing a good STR and CHA and decent CON.) Even if manage to get up to a 13-16ish INT, you'd still be limited to utility cantrips since your INT modifier won't be competitive at higher level play, and your ASIs will need to be going towards STR/CHA anyway.

And unlike the Sorcerer or Warlock who gets additional subclass abilities at 1st level, you don't really get much else from a 1 level Wizard dip besides a handful of additional spells and slots.

The Sorcerer or Warlock gets those and more, plus don't require worrying about an additional stat.

Wizard also gets you access to ritual casting spells, more spells known, up to possibly all 1st level wizard spells, and an additional slot for smiting after your first SR of the day. I wouldn't expect all that much difficulty with attack cantrips if you use BB/GFB, neither of which care about your spellcasting mod, but that was why I also brought up Warlock. If you want cantrips for attack purposes (rather than utility), I'd say the other features of Warlock are generally going to be better at first level than Sorc, especially if you go for Hexblade, which makes shield available and is generally good for Paladins anyways.

EDIT: To clarify, my contention is not that Wizard is an incredible dip for Paladin, but rather that Sorc 1 is very underwhelming. Enough so that if it were available, I would rather take Wizard 1, despite the lack of attribute scaling and the lost cantrip.

[Bardon]

In regards to Padlock, I've made a very fun and effective Satyr Hexblade 1 (I know...) Ancients Paladin X. With the combination of the Satyr advantage against spells *and other magical effects* (a very important point!) and the Ancients aura he's damn hard to hurt or affect magically and of course there's the usual SAD and EB to give better ranged options.

I RP'd the Hexblade as his parents made the pact to save their village when he was a baby and he was the price. He turned to Paladin to prove that he wasn't corrupted by the Warlock "taint". The most disturbing thing is that his Patron apparently wholeheartedly approves of his decision....

Overall he's very effective and a lot of fun to play!

[Gtdead]

For a melee attacker, I personally don't care much for the Pal 2 / Sorcerer X split unless your DM lets you play the oldschool Favored Soul. SCAG cantrips increasingly do not cut the mustard in a post-Xanathar's world as a replacement for Extra Attack. I know it's considered CharOP orthodoxy to assume that you don't get magical items and to theorize/build your character appropriately, but I just don't find that a reasonable assumption for game balance. 80% of home games (and every AL game) I've played in T2 onwards are reasonably generous with magical items. And even if they aren't, Shadow Blade by itself blows any melee build that doesn't have Extra Attack out of the water.

I don't consider it a great melee attacker too. When I created my build, I picked up the MM and chose 2 monsters of every CR in random. Then I simulated a fight between these monsters and this build, Level for CR and Face to Face (no kiting tricks). Due to the high defenses, this sorcadin just doesn't die, and when you can survive 10+ rounds against these monsters all you have to do is adjust the trickle of damage. SG is amazing for this type of build. Statistically, this split can solo the whole MM and it's still a high level sorcerer that will eventually get lvl 9 spells. I think he is a bit weaker than the Paladin 6+ split in T3 (although this is just a feeling, I haven't simulated Paladin 6), but he comes back with a vengeance in T4, with permanent flying, wish etc.

It will never do the damage that a Paladin 6 split can do, this is a given, but it comes online very early and it's a dominant presence in the field.

[Hael]

I mean, its difficult going wrong b/c there is such synergy between the classes here and they are all so versatile that you have a great deal of build options that can work. Bards can be thrown in here as well (although they're a little less trivially synergistic and needs a little more build finesse).

I'd say there is a natural build incentive though.

Padlocks (Hexadins) typically are more martial than the others. You kinda want to build them to be Dpr machines. I've had a few people play the standard 14Hex/6Pal version at our table, and they're very strong. I've also seen the 17 pal /3 lock split in AL play. They're sorta like slightly better versions of the primary mono class (slightly worse for a few lvls and slightly better for all of the rest).

Sorcadins (pal 6/7 Sorc X) kinda want to be primary tanks, so they're inclined to be less damage or backline oriented, but again you can build it so many different ways..

Sorlocks (I include the pal 2/ sorc 18 build and the hex1/pal2/Sorc 17 for completeness b/c they play similarly). The usual one is the 2-3 hex/18-17 sorc split. As far as i'm concerned, this is basically 5e's sorcerer done correctly. You are delaying spell progression for armor, rechargable spell slots and massive utility and damage capability. Still versatile, as you can build a tank out of this, but you are encouraged to be more of a backliner.

The rule of thumb is that they have a few nasty levels at some point, at which point they are weaker than their standard class, but then turn on at some point and become well above the standard point of balance.

[Sception]

Paladin has some obvious breakpoints for multiclassing: 2nd level gets you your smites and weapon/armor proficiencies, 6th level for Aura of Protection and Extra Attack, 7th level gets you a subclass feature (Aura of Warding from Oath of the Ancients is well worth it), and 11th level gets you Improved Divine Smite. If you're not sticking with paladin all the way to 20, then there's not really a compelling reason to go beyond 11.

More notable breakpoint options:

8 - if your oath aura is worth going to level seven for, then just one more level gets you an ASI, which is a big deal for a stat-hungry martial gish like paladin or any of its multiclass spin offs. You also get +1 spell slot progression if multiclassing as a sorcerer, so if all you care about in that multiclass is slot advancement for smiting more, you aren't even giving anything up. Yes, you will eventually get ASIs from your multiclass, but if you're only dipping out of paladin now that's four levels to wait for a major feature like war caster or sentinel or polearm master or even just +2 cha that you could instead have right now if you wait for just one more level.

9 - If the asi was worth waiting for, you might want to stay one level longer for 3rd level paladin spell access. Obviously for smite oriented paladins this is negligible, but some paladins care very deeply about third level spells, including Conquerors with Fear and Crowns with Spirit Guardians. Sure, in the long run a divine soul sorcadin can gain access to those spells on the sorcerer side, but 5 levels is a long time to wait for build defining options that you could be playing with right now if you stayed in paladin for just one more level.

12 - if you stuck around for improved divine smite, then you're only one level away from an ASI, which are still quite precious for paladins & paladin multiclasses, and level 12 is another even paladin level so it again advances your spell slot progression just as much as a level of sorcerer would have. Again, yes, you can get ASI's from your other class, but four more levels etc etc.

13 - if the asi was worth waiting for, then you might want to stay just one level longer for 4th level paladin spell access, and thanks to Xanathar's Improved Find Steed every paladin cares about 4th level spell access. It's maybe not worth waiting 7 levels for if all you wanted was divine smite and aura of protection, sure. But if your oath aura, improved divine smite, and two undelayed ASIs were worth waiting around until level 12 for, imo it would be a real shame not to stay one more level for your free pegasus or griffin.


If you only look at builds as completed, level 20 packages then you can miss out on the in practice experience of actually playing the character. Few games get to level 20, and those that do almost invariably spend way more time in the 5 to 15 range than they do at levels 16 to 20. A build that has it all and more at level 17 may still in practice be less good than a build that only has half of it, but delivers the most important bits sooner.

[RogueJK]

8 - if your oath aura is worth going to level seven for, then just one more level gets you an ASI

9 - If the asi was worth waiting for, you might want to stay one level longer for 3rd level paladin spell access. Obviously for smite oriented paladins this is negligible, but some paladins care very deeply about third level spells, including Conquerors with Fear and Crowns with Spirit Guardians. Sure, in the long run a divine soul sorcadin can gain access to those spells on the sorcerer side

That's why stopping at Paladin 6 can be the best option. You're only delaying your ASI and 3rd level spell access for 2 character levels.

So rather than getting an ASI at 8th and 3rd level spells at 9th, with a 6/X Sorlock or Sorcadin you're getting an ASI at 10th and 3rd level spells at 11th.

But I do agree that for some Oaths (like Ancients, or Vengeance if you're doing a Polearm Master/Sentinel build), holding out for Paladin 7 is worth it, and that throws off the above scenario a bit. And Conquest benefits more than others from sticking straight through to Paladin 9, as all their abilities build on top of each other through 9th level (since you'll typically want Aura of Conquest and access to Fear ASAP).

[Sception]

yep, it definitely varies build by build. For a conqueror, when you get to level 12 you'll kind wish you had gone pal7/sor6 because that combo has aura of conquest and fear and heighten and enough sorcery points to heighten twice a day before cutting into spell slots. There will be days when that character locks down multiple enemies for entire combats with aura of conquest thanks to being able to force disadvantage (or cancel advantage) on the initial saves while the single classed conqueror finds them effectively a paladin without a subclass because everything passes their saves. Any conqueror knows there's going to be times especially at high levels when enemies are flat immune to frighten, and you go into the build willing to accept that, but what they don't tell you is how ubiquitous sky high wisdom saves and/or spell resistance are on higher level monsters, even brute and minion types, and unlike the conquest sorcadin, the single classed conqueror has no way to get around that.

But that said, if you did go for pal7/sor6, then you would have wished you had just stuck with paladin at level 8 when the pal gets +2 cha, and level 9 when the paladin gets fear and you don't yet, and level 10 when the paladin has semi-friendly fear thanks to aura of courage and you don't even have fear at all yet, and level 11 when the paladin has improved divine smite and you still don't even have fear.

From level 12 on your your frighten effects are just better than the paladin's thanks to being able to force disadvantage on saves a few times a day, and the pure paladin will never catch up to that. As levels get higher and higher, the pure paladin conqueror will find themselves less and less able to utilize their primary mechanical and narrative gimmick, while it remains a much more viable tactic for the sorcadin, and when you are confronted with enemies that are outright immune the sorcadin will have more spell slots to smite them away with.

But how often do campaigns spend more time at levels 12+ than they do at levels 8 to 11? In my experience, not many. And at levels 13+ the paladin's new best friend the big beautiful flying horse is one heck of a consolation prize for coming in second.


But that's just conquerors, who are a rare paladin oath in that they really like their level 7 aura AND their level 9 oath spells (AND their CDs AND their level 15 feature - even if the latter is still poor incentive to stick with paladin past improved find steed). None of their features are the best, but there aren't any outright duds that make for easy jumping out points. Crown might really want spirit guardians, but with a questionable level 7 ability (basically redemption minus the range), is it really worth their time to stick around that long to get it, when they could duck into divine soul after level six and get spirit guardians only two levels later anyway? Ancients absolutely want that level 7 aura, and might stick around for the ASI at level 8 afterwards, since level 8 advances their spell slot progression as well, but do they care about 3rd level paladin spells enough to make level 9 worth it? And if level 9 isn't can they really justify sticking through to level 11 for improved divine smite?


Eh, maybe. Depends on the character and the build and the player and the game. regardless, I'd still say 8, 9, 12, and 13 are additional break points worth at least thinking about holding out on paladin multiclass builds if and only if you already know you want to stay to level 7 for the oath feature regardless. IE, conquerors, breakers, ancients, maybe devotees, maybe redeemers, but probably not avengers.

Crowns are a special case in that their level 7 feature isn't great so theoretically they shouldn't ever take more than paladin 6 if they intend to multiclass at all, but on the other hand spirit guardians at level 9 is about the only reason to go crown in the first place, and those that do stick around to 9 (and might decide to just stick around for 11, 12, even 13 at that point) aren't going to feel bad about doing so. Crown 9 or 9+ in particular is something to consider on multiclass paladins where the other side isn't going to be a divine soul and so won't get spirit guardians otherwise. EG crown/dragon souls, or crown/sword bards, or crown hexadins that plan to go deeper into hexblade instead of branching out into sorcerer.

but that's really getting into the weeds.

[Pex]

Crown might really want spirit guardians, but with a questionable level 7 ability (basically redemption minus the range), is it really worth their time to stick around that long to get it, when they could duck into divine soul after level six and get spirit guardians only two levels later anyway?

Doesn't work that way. Two levels of Divine Soul gets you 3rd level spell slots but you only have 1st level sorcerer/cleric spells to choose from. You still need 5 levels of Divine Soul to choose 3rd level sorcerer/cleric spells, so you're an 11th level character at 6 Crown/5 Divine Soul to get Spirit Guardians. Single class Crown got it at level 9.

[Sception]

Doesn't work that way. Two levels of Divine Soul gets you 3rd level spell slots but you only have 1st level sorcerer/cleric spells to choose from. You still need 5 levels of Divine Soul to choose 3rd level sorcerer/cleric spells, so you're an 11th level character at 6 Crown/5 Divine Soul to get Spirit Guardians. Single class Crown got it at level 9.

That's exactly what I said though.

Pure crown gets spirit guardians at level 9.

Crown 6 / Divine Soul 5 gets spirit guardians at level 11.

level 11 is two levels after 9, so multiclassing out earlier only makes you wait two extra levels to get spirit guardians.

The point is that if an oath of the crown paladin intends to multiclass into divine soul sorcerer, then it probably isn't worth waiting around for spirit guardians at level 9 before multiclassing, because they'd only have to wait two additional levels to get the spell if they instead drop out after aura of protection at level 6, and the extra goodies of 5 levels of sorcerer (favor of the gods, shield, endure elements, quicken, twin, misty step, spiritual weapon) are easily worth that wait.


Again though, spirit guardians is the main reason to go crown in the first place. I mean, warding bond is also good, but divine soul can provide that, too. So if you're going to multiclass into divine soul then you probably should be taking a different oath in the first place, and saving oath of the crown for a paladin who either isn't intending to multiclass or is intending to take at least 9 levels of paladin (and if you're taking 9 levels anyway then you might want to stay for 11, 12, or 13) before multiclassing into something that doesn't get spirit guardians, like draconic sorcerer or hexblade.

[Pex]

Ok. Misunderstood your starting character/class level point.

[MinotaurWarrior]

Bonus Q:

Wizlocks: I wonder if more Wizlocks would be wizard dips for the school features. Chronurgist, War Wizard, Diviner, Bladesinger, Abjurer, Illusionist, would all make good dips.

Artlocks: The biggest synergies I personally see are just that you get reliable access to enhanced arcane foci and spell-storing gets you around the issue of wanting to concentrate on hex *and* other spells. But overall I don't see anywhere near as much synergy here as the padlock.

[Hellpyre]

Bonus Q:

Wizlocks: I wonder if more Wizlocks would be wizard dips for the school features. Chronurgist, War Wizard, Diviner, Bladesinger, Abjurer, Illusionist, would all make good dips.

They really are not terribly good, even the relatively better options. Diviner for non-Bladelocks and War Wizard for Bladelock are likely to be the best schools for a two-level dip, but what you give up to get there is usually going to be too much.

As for the others - Abjurer needs Wizard levels to scale Arcane Ward, Illusionist is just worse than Misty Visions, and Bladesinger needs a decent INT mod to be helpful. Chronurgy is at least somewhat decent. The reroll is not quite as good as Portent, but even a +1 to initiative is a nice benefit.

[MinotaurWarrior]

They really are not terribly good, even the relatively better options. Diviner for non-Bladelocks and War Wizard for Bladelock are likely to be the best schools for a two-level dip, but what you give up to get there is usually going to be too much.

As for the others - Abjurer needs Wizard levels to scale Arcane Ward, Illusionist is just worse than Misty Visions, and Bladesinger needs a decent INT mod to be helpful. Chronurgy is at least somewhat decent. The reroll is not quite as good as Portent, but even a +1 to initiative is a nice benefit.

Well this is a hypothetical world where warlocks are an Int class. So chronurgist would be +5 Initiative, Bladesinger is +5 AC, etc.

Also, arcane ward scales with spell slot too, and even at a low value, the at will HP is nice.

Illusionist 'stacks' with misty vision. It's very dm / campaign style dependent, but if you're mostly solving situations with creative illusions, the extra volume / location is a big buff.

[Hellpyre]

Well this is a hypothetical world where warlocks are an Int class. So chronurgist would be +5 Initiative, Bladesinger is +5 AC, etc.

You...uh...did not make that assumption clear in proposing the question. That certainly changes the effectiveness of some of them by quite a bit.

Also, arcane ward scales with spell slot too, and even at a low value, the at will HP is nice.

Illusionist 'stacks' with misty vision. It's very dm / campaign style dependent, but if you're mostly solving situations with creative illusions, the extra volume / location is a big buff.

Arcane ward is somewhat better if it has a cap of 9 tHP instead of 5, but it's still hampered by the small size of the initial buffer in combat, which is one of its largest benefits.

Illusionist still has the issue that your minor illusions are static, which limits the benefit of getting the sound out on the same action instead of precasting it with the 'discrete sounds' clause to have them overlap anyways. And since it only applies to the cantrip, you still need two actions for sound with your silent imagess, which are a much more dynamic illusion for an illusion specialist.

[paladinn]

Go Sorlocadin.. best of all worlds. My favorite character was a vengeance paladin/ hexblade/ divine soul MC. Not optimized but a Lot of fun, and so much synergy between the three. Smites, E-blast, healing, fireball.. the guy could do it all. And Cha-SADness!

[CMCC]

Is sorlockadin the most powerful? It’s basically a SAD sorcadin who can crit on a 19-20.

Go Sorlocadin.. best of all worlds. My favorite character was a vengeance paladin/ hexblade/ divine soul MC. Not optimized but a Lot of fun, and so much synergy between the three. Smites, E-blast, healing, fireball.. the guy could do it all. And Cha-SADness!

I asked in the other thread, but what was your breakdown for this build?