Planescape, the Outlands, and the Spire: a conceptual design experiment.

[Segev]

I may have brought this up before, but recently a thread on new settings in the 5e forum wandered into discussing spelljammer and planescape and reminded me of this concept, and I want to explore it a bit.

The Outlands are the outer plane of the "true neutral" alignment, though like all Planescape outer planes, it gets "shaded" towards its neighbors where it borders on them. In the Outlands, in particular, there are "gate towns" that exist for each of the other outer planes which share that other outer plane's alignment, and has a gate linking to that outer plane.

This ring of Gate Towns forms a sort of natural outer edge to the outlands, making it finite in boundary despite being theoretically limitless. You're traveling "alignmentward" when you head towards a gate town; it is unlikely that you can go further "towards that alignment" than the gate town is. (In fact, gate towns often have a tendency to assimilate so much from the connected plane that they'll "fall in" to the other plane, and a new, naked gate will be all that's left and a new gate town will spring up around it.) If you try to go "past" a Gate Town by continuing in the same direction you left from, you just find yourself heading further away from the "edge" of the Outlands. Maybe towards a neighboring Gate Town as you more strongly move towards one of its component alignments or another, or maybe back towards the Spire as you get less well-aligned. If you instead keep moving more precisely towards its alignment, you move closer and closer to the gate until you wind up in the other plane to which it connects.

Meanwhile, the center of the Outlands is defined and dominated by the Spire. An infinitely-tall mountain that sweeps upwards. An oddity about the Spire is that, as you get close to it, magic starts to fail. Highest-level artifacts and spells fail first, and as you get closer and closer, lower and lower level magics stop working, until there just is no magic that functions. Much closer in than that, and even life stops working. This is, I think, generally a reflection of how neutrality is bland blankness if taken to an extreme, and there's not even ennui to give meaning to time or existence there. I could be wrong, though.

The major point of this thought experiment lies in the idea that, despite being bounded by the other outer planes in a physically-limiting sense, the Outlands are truly infinite in size. This is achieved because the Spire is actually how the infinite interior of the Outlands looks from the finite exterior nearer the Gate Towns.

There is a constant sense of going "uphill" as you move "neutralward," and going "downhill" as you move "alignmentward." Maybe the gates in the Gate Towns are actually huge maws that lie at the lowest point in the local topology, and are like looking down into the neighboring outer plane. Maybe the gates are actually one big edge of the Outlands, with the city built right up against them, and it's theoretically possible to skirt the very edge of alignment-space to walk the whole way, in a giant metropolis that rings the entire Outlands...but in practice, you usually wind up circling the same alignment concepts within a particular Gate Town, and have to go a bit "neutralward" and leave the town to properly orient yourself towards another Gate Town's alignment setup, creating an illusion that each Gate Town has its own independent Gate and is separated by a rural wild part of the Outlands between them.

Meanwhile, heading towards the Spire, the actual space "around" the Spire gets bigger as you move in. From another perspective, the Outlands surround the Gate Towns, and the Spire is the infinity to which the Outlands stretch in every direction, but because heading away from alignment always means going in roughly the same "neutralward" direction, it also all points in towards the same place.

Thus, the sense of going "uphill" that gets sharper as you get closer to the Spire.


This isn't a perfect formulation, but I thought I'd drop it here for consideration on planar topology and for possible comment on how to, if not resolve some of the paradoxes, at least embrace them in a way that makes semi-logical sense in a multi-dimensional manifold sort of way.

[Millstone85]

If you try to go "past" a Gate Town by continuing in the same direction you left from, you just find yourself heading further away from the "edge" of the Outlands.

There is apparently a place called the Hinterlands. I am not sure if it is official or fanmade.

From what I gather, it shares themes with the Far Realm. If moving toward the Spire is "neutralward" and toward the gate-towns is "alignmentward", as you said, then moving past the gate-towns would be "ineffableward" as all sort of strange concepts manifest in the landscape.

It also has a rubberband effect. The walk back to the gate-towns is always a short one, no matter how deep you traveled into the Hinterlands.

[Keltest]

Personally ive always had a bit of trouble with the idea that a plane can have fixed geographic features and also be infinite. The idea that the planes could be infinite in only some areas had genuinely not occurred to me, and i find that i like it as an explanation.

[Kaptin Keen]

To my mind, all planes are infinite. Even Sigil is infinite. It's just not infinite in the way we imagine - you cannot just strike out in any random direction and expect it to go on forever. Rather, it's sort of fractally infinite.

Like, say you decide to travel all the way around the donut of Sigil. There are, what, 6 wards, and each ward is certainly finite in size (or seems so), but as you travel the streets, you will find that walking all the way around is a journey without end. I might well argue that the wards are in fact infinite, but that you can cross between them through gates that seem entirely ordinary. Same for Undersigil - there's always another level below, always more tunnels somewhere, leading gods only know where.

Something similar is true of the Outlands. You need to imagine directions other than compas points. Travelling west will never get you to a bordertown - and travelling CE-ward will never take you in any compass direction.

A bit abstract - but I find that satisfying in itself. The planes shouldn't be just 'like the prime, only different'. I always felt the planes should be entirely unlike the prime, but still somehow similar (somewhat, at least).

[OldTrees1]

That is an interesting take on the Spire. My only question is, what do the denizens of Sigil see when they look up towards the middle of the ring? Do they see the outlands as an axle that passes through the ring of Sigil?

Another variation on the infinite outlands is to have it use hyperbolic space. Direct lines between points take finite time, but deviate from the path and you might get further and further away from your destination.

[Segev]

That is an interesting take on the Spire. My only question is, what do the denizens of Sigil see when they look up towards the middle of the ring? Do they see the outlands as an axle that passes through the ring of Sigil?

Another variation on the infinite outlands is to have it use hyperbolic space. Direct lines between points take finite time, but deviate from the path and you might get further and further away from your destination.

I'm not entirely sure how I want to resolve Sigil in this model. PArt of my problem is that I'm having trouble finding what official works say about what Sigilites see when they look up. Does the Spire pass through the middle of the torus, or is it visible out one side of the torus but not the other? And if so, do we have canon on which side is "down" towards the Spire?

[Millstone85]

PArt of my problem is that I'm having trouble finding what official works say about what Sigilites see when they look up. Does the Spire pass through the middle of the torus, or is it visible out one side of the torus but not the other?

Spoiler: The 5e DMG gives us the reverse, a view of Sigil from the Spire.

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I am not sure where exactly these mages are standing. I guess the Spire makes a plateau just before its final peak. Anyhow, it would suggest that all of Sigil can see the Spire, though some get to look up at the peak while others would look "up" at the rest of the mountain.

Spoiler: Older art represents Sigil floating further above.

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Which would only make the Spire visible to some inhabitants.

[Quertus]

Spoiler: The 5e DMG gives us the reverse, a view of Sigil from the Spire.

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I am not sure where exactly these mages are standing. I guess the Spire makes a plateau just before its final peak. Anyhow, it would suggest that all of Sigil can see the Spire, though some get to look up at the peak while others would look "up" at the rest of the mountain.

Spoiler: Older art represents Sigil floating further above.

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Which would only make the Spire visible to some inhabitants.

Yeah, that was always my understanding, that Sigil sat at "infinity +1”.

[OldTrees1]

I'm not entirely sure how I want to resolve Sigil in this model. PArt of my problem is that I'm having trouble finding what official works say about what Sigilites see when they look up. Does the Spire pass through the middle of the torus, or is it visible out one side of the torus but not the other? And if so, do we have canon on which side is "down" towards the Spire?

In general I see the Spire depicted as a finite length that stops short of Sigil (see 2nd image). Your idea of the Spire being a visual of the infinite remaining center of the Outlands makes me expect Sigil will see the Spire pass through the ring (that 5E image).

Kinda as if the Spire were an axle.

[Segev]

In general I see the Spire depicted as a finite length that stops short of Sigil (see 2nd image). Your idea of the Spire being a visual of the infinite remaining center of the Outlands makes me expect Sigil will see the Spire pass through the ring (that 5E image).

Kinda as if the Spire were an axle.

The Spire has always been "infinitely tall." Sigil being "on top" of it has always been a paradox. On purpose.

[Bohandas]

More importantly, Sigil shouldn't be visible from the ground regardless of whether it's at infinity or infinity +1.

By comparison, the stars in the Hubble Deep Field are a finite distance away and much larger and more luminous, and are only visible by doing a very long exposure through a stupendously powerful telescope

[Millstone85]

To me, the Outer Planes are clusters of astral dominions. These demiplanes continue to be incorporated, released to drift once more through the Astral, or transferred from one outer plane to another. And a dominion adopts the background wallpaper, so to speak, of any outer plane it is currently part of.

For example, if a dominion exemplifies the ideals of Law and Good, then it will appear to be on the side of a mountain of which the heights are shrouded in light, or on a coast where that mountain meets a pristine sea, or maybe on an island a short distance from that coast. Travelling from one dominion to another might involve a mountain hike that is never going to be twice the same, as connections form and disappear like dendrites between neurons.

Gorion's Ward: I suppose you're going to tell me Irenicus has been waiting behind that strange doorway this entire time?
Fiend: Of course not. He moves fast, yet you close on him quickly. The tests you make are clever, o young Lady of Murder. Your power here is strong.
[...]
Gorion's Ward: And what then? The door will be open and Irenicus will be there?
Fiend: The way to your soul shall be revealed, but you only perceive it as a door. A pity that mortal minds can encompass more power than their faculties can comprehend.

Also, very influent dominions might become landmarks visible through the whole plane, and either easily reachable (e.g. the gate-towns) or ever in the distance (e.g. Sigil).

[Zombimode]

The Spire has always been "infinitely tall." Sigil being "on top" of it has always been a paradox. On purpose.

Hm, not really. The Spire has both a start and an end (base in the outlands and the Top where Sigil is located). If the Spire would be of finite length you could travel with finite speed from one end to the other in finite time. Since you can't travel with finite speed from one end to the other (in finite time) the Spire is not of finite length. In other words it is "infinitely tall". You can still travel from one end to the other with "infinite" speed (aka Teleportation). No paradox.

[Eldan]

I seem to remember the old Planescape books mentioning that you can't see the Spire from Sigil at all, the sky is perfectly empty in all directions. It is canonical that people have tried climbing the spire to the height of Sigil and had to give up after several weeks, being no closer.

And the Outlands have really weird geography. A bit like the fractal infinity mentioned above: in the outlands, travelling between two points always takes "some weeks" (it's a random dice roll in the old Planescape books.) Meaning you can travel from point A to point B and take 2d6 weeks (or whatever), or travel from point A to point C and take 2d6 weeks for that and then from C to B and also take 2d6 weeks for that.

And occasionally, you just find new places that weren't there before on the way.

[Bohandas]

I thought Sigil was on the inside of the ring anyway, so of course you wouldn't be able to see the Spire

[Tanarii]

Interesting things here that don't match my assumptions / memory of Planescape.

If you try to go "past" a Gate Town by continuing in the same direction you left from, you just find yourself heading further away from the "edge" of the Outlands.

I don't recall the gate towns being the outermost edge of the Concordant Opposition. Don't suppose you have a page reference?

I thought Sigil was on the inside of the ring anyway, so of course you wouldn't be able to see the Spire

Same. I thought looking up in sigil meant seeing more sigil.

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Edit: the most important thing to remember about Planescape tho ... it's pronounced Si-gull.

[Bohandas]

Interesting things here that don't match my assumptions / memory of Planescape. I don't recall the gate towns being the outermost edge of the Concordant Opposition.

They're not. Although the area beyond them is like that staircase in Mario 64 where it just goes on without anything happening and no matter how far you go you never get any further from where you started.

EDIT:

Or like transfinite numbers, where step omega is strictly before step omega+1 and yet after step omega+1 you've still done the same number of steps (aleph-null) as you had done when you were still on step omega

You can keep going in that direction indefinitely, but you can't actually get any further.

EDIT:

However, that bundry is, in any case, a little ways beyond the gate towns

[Eldan]

I thought Sigil was on the inside of the ring anyway, so of course you wouldn't be able to see the Spire

It's more like a ringworld in sci fi. Looking up, you see a lot of empty grey sky and a thin grey band of Sigil opposite you.

[Bohandas]

It's pretty clearly a torus rather than a band in most of the illustrations

[Eldan]

Yeah, but it doesn't cover the entire sky. There's some on either side.

[Millstone85]

Here is my understanding of the shape of Sigil:

• Start with an hollow cylinder.
• Cut off a band along the length.
• Bend what remains into a torus.

Spoiler: 4e had a picture where the cut-off band was, like, 1/16 of the cylinder?

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It is clearly more on the 5e illustration.

[Tanarii]

Here is my understanding of the shape of Sigil:

• Start with an hollow cylinder.
• Cut off a band along the length.
• Bend what remains into a torus.

Spoiler: 4e had a picture where the cut-off band was, like, 1/16 of the cylinder?

Show

It is clearly more on the 5e illustration.

Thanks! Turns out I was envisioning it right, on the inside of the torus. The missing slice part is interesting though. It means the question of if you can see the spire / if it runs through the center is still relevant.

[Segev]

Thanks! Turns out I was envisioning it right, on the inside of the torus. The missing slice part is interesting though. It means the question of if you can see the spire / if it runs through the center is still relevant.

In 2e, it looked more like this (the map is actually from the 2e box set):

Spoiler

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Can't link this image directly, so here's the page it's on

Spoiler

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[Millstone85]

In 2e, it looked more like this (the map is actually from the 2e box set)

I thought the 5e illustration did a bad job at capturing the concavity of the city, but now I realize that I was imagining it. They brought back the 2e version.

[Tanarii]

In 2e, it looked more like this (the map is actually from the 2e box set):

Spoiler

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Can't link this image directly, so here's the page it's on

Spoiler

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Reading the thread you linked, looks like the best description for both 2e and 3e is neither ring nor torus, but the inside of a tire. That's still fairly consistent with the map you linked, as it could be curled in on the long edge as long as they don't touch. The only real question is how big the "gap" is relative to width of the city.

[OldTrees1]

Tire Sigil it is! Yay what information can be gained from random questions about seeing the Spire from Sigil.

[Tanarii]

Right? I appreciate Bohandas's answer on what's past the gate towns too.

[Segev]

Reading the thread you linked, looks like the best description for both 2e and 3e is neither ring nor torus, but the inside of a tire. That's still fairly consistent with the map you linked, as it could be curled in on the long edge as long as they don't touch. The only real question is how big the "gap" is relative to width of the city.

Tire Sigil it is! Yay what information can be gained from random questions about seeing the Spire from Sigil.

My view of Sigil has always been the map one, and I look at it and see a sort of half-pipe wrapped into a torus, or a hollow torus with the center cut out. So tire-ish, but not QUITE. I can see the "solid torus, with the center cut out" interpretation, too, especially given references to "undersigil" being a warren of passages beneath the city streets that go down some distance.

I dislike the very narrow opening up top because it doesn't really jive with the way the city is described as looking; such an arrangement would lead to internal lighting or to it being dark all the time, rather than regularly lit by the sun passing way overhead and lighting up one side then the other.

Right? I appreciate Bohandas's answer on what's past the gate towns too.

That was interesting; I don't recall that I've heard that explanation before.

[Bohandas]

Spoiler

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I want to know where the rest of that river towards the top right is

That was interesting; I don't recall that I've heard that explanation before.

That's how I interpreted this passage from 3e Manual of the Planes:

One notable aspect of the mutable nature of distance is that once a traveler gets outside the ring of portal towns, another portal town is never more than a few weeks away. No matter where travelers are beyond the ring of portal towns, the nearest town is 4d8×10 miles away. A traveler can effectively travel two thousand miles outward from the spire, then turn around to find a portal town only 4d8×10 miles away.

IIRC it was similar but different in 2e and EVERYTHING beyond the inner rings was 3d6 days travel away from a gate town and the gate towns could only be traversed in order

[Eldan]

My view of Sigil has always been the map one, and I look at it and see a sort of half-pipe wrapped into a torus, or a hollow torus with the center cut out. So tire-ish, but not QUITE. I can see the "solid torus, with the center cut out" interpretation, too, especially given references to "undersigil" being a warren of passages beneath the city streets that go down some distance.

I dislike the very narrow opening up top because it doesn't really jive with the way the city is described as looking; such an arrangement would lead to internal lighting or to it being dark all the time, rather than regularly lit by the sun passing way overhead and lighting up one side then the other.

Sigil specifically has no sun, just diffuse light, as far as I remember from 2E. As a consequence, it's also impossible to keep plants alive in the city without significant amounts of druidic magic and most animals don't do so well, too. (There's Cranium rats that take out most other vermin, and apart from that, there's some weird donkey with tentacles that's used as a draft animal (horses don't make it long) and a mutated carion-feeding raven.)