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2020-10-14, 12:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
Down a rabbit hole with Ranged Disarm
While tinkering with other projects, I reread the Ranged Disarm feat from Complete Warrior. I realized that it's kind of unclear in a few parts:
The first part is clear enough. Ranged weapons are classified separately from Light, One, and Two handed weapons, so there is neither a bonus nor a penalty to any explicitly Ranged weapon listed in the books. That includes your thrown only weapons like darts and javelins, even shuriken.
But... What happens with melee weapons when thrown in conjunction with the feat? Do they retain their melee size category for the throw (along with the associated size bonus or penalty) or do they default to being considered a Ranged weapon for the duration, losing any bonus or penalty to disarm derived from melee weapon classification?
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2020-10-14, 01:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Down a rabbit hole with Ranged Disarm
That is interesting. They would retain their nature as 2handed or light. They don't stop being those things because they are thrown.
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Amazing Princess Mononoke avatar by Dispozition
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2020-10-14, 01:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
Re: Down a rabbit hole with Ranged Disarm
I remember there was some relatively well buried rule or possibly definition in the SRD that stated that thrown weapons were treated as Ranged, that could theoretically be used to justify them functioning fully as ranged weapons. I could very well be mistaken, though. I'm not having any luck tracking it down. It's also late here and I'm supposed to be up in 5 hours.
But also melee classifications remain relevant to thrown weapons for action economy purposes, so yeah, You're right. they probably would retain their associated modifiers at that.
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2020-10-14, 10:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2019
Re: Down a rabbit hole with Ranged Disarm
Well, the SRD states that ranged attacks are made with ranged weapons. Some thrown weapons are melee weapons. If melee thrown weapons aren't ranged weapons then they can't make ranged attacks; negating any benefit to being able to be thrown which is not the intent of a thrown weapon.
So there are two possibilities. First is that melee thrown weapons are thrown as melee attacks. The second is that thrown weapons are ranged weapons. With the first option you don't need the feat/precise shot. With the second option you would.
I personally don't mind the first option, but my groups use the second.
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2020-10-14, 10:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Down a rabbit hole with Ranged Disarm
When you throw a melee weapon, it is a ranged attack. You use your dex and so on. They are not treated as melee attacks unless you are a bloodstorm blade.
I've got a new fantasy TTRPG about running your own fencing school in a 3 musketeers pastiche setting. Book coming soon.
Check out my NEW sci-fi TTRPG about first contact. Cool alien races, murderous AIs, and more. New expansion featuring rules for ships! New book here NOW!
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Amazing Princess Mononoke avatar by Dispozition
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2020-10-14, 10:46 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2019
Re: Down a rabbit hole with Ranged Disarm
Except ranged attacks are made with ranged weapons. Literally nothing I can find says that melee thrown weapons are ranged weapons or that "thrown" implies a ranged weapon. Even the throw anything feat is written in such a way that doesn't clarify this issue.
The rules compendium only has this to say:
Originally Posted by RCLast edited by Darg; 2020-10-14 at 10:54 AM.
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2020-10-17, 06:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2017
Re: Down a rabbit hole with Ranged Disarm
{scrubbed}
a weapon used for mellee is a mellee weapon...
a weapon used for ranged is a ranged weapon...
A weapon that CAN be thrown is a mellee weapon when Weilded and a ranged weapon thrown....
A Bow is a ranged weapon when shot, and a improvised weaon in mellee
a longsword is a Mellee weapon when you swing it , but and improvised weapon when you throw it.
A dagger is a dagger regardless of wither you throw it or stab with it.....
{scrubbed}Last edited by Peelee; 2020-10-17 at 08:35 PM.
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2020-10-17, 07:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
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Re: Down a rabbit hole with Ranged Disarm
Here's where I point out for about the third time at least the WOTC Rules of the Game article on this subject:
Throwing Melee Weapons
You can throw any melee weapon whose statistics don't include a range increment, provided you can wield it in one or two hands. You can hurl such a weapon up to 50 feet; it effectively has a range increment of 10 feet.
You always take a -4 penalty for nonproficiency when you throw a weapon that's not meant to be thrown -- it just doesn't work well in that role. Throwing a melee weapon that's not suitable for ranged attacks requires a standard action if you can wield it in one hand. If you must use two hands to wield the weapon, throwing it requires a full-round action. Because you need a standard or full-round action to throw such a weapon once, you cannot make iterative attacks when doing so.
Some Selected Thrown Weapons
Here are a few thrown weapons worth discussing, either because they're a little strange or just because doing so will allow us to cover a few points we haven't examined yet.
Dagger: A dagger is one of several thrown weapons that you can use in melee or at range. It works just like a melee weapon when you use it in a melee attack. When you chuck the dagger at a target, you treat it as a thrown weapon. Use your Dexterity modifier for the attack roll when you throw it, and then use your Strength modifier for the damage roll if your attack hits. When you make a ranged attack by throwing a dagger, the act provokes attacks of opportunity, as noted in Part One, even though you can make melee attacks with the dagger that do not provoke attacks of opportunity.
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2020-10-17, 08:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2019
Re: Down a rabbit hole with Ranged Disarm
That is some major venom coming my way. There is no reason you should be upset by my pointing out RAW interactions. As far as I can tell, nothing RAW states that thrown weapons are ranged weapons only when thrown or at all. Improvised thrown weapons and improvised melee weapons have completely separate rules dictating how they function. Even the Throw Anything feat doesn't turn the melee weapons into ranged weapons even when thrown, but because of the claimer "as if it were a ranged weapon" you can make a ranged attack. Thrown weapons in general don't have that.
It's simply a hole in the rules. As you say, a dagger will be a melee weapon whether you throw or stab it. The question is whether it is also a ranged weapon or not as it needs to be to make a ranged attack. The rules are quite hush about it. Unless you would like to quote a source that says otherwise.
Too bad it's not in the books. It would make your life easier. I've never actually seen that article; so, thanks for the link.Last edited by Darg; 2020-10-17 at 08:47 PM.
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2020-10-17, 09:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
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- Perth, West Australia
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Re: Down a rabbit hole with Ranged Disarm
I find that, combined with the definition of what a ranged weapon actually is, makes it pretty simple to adjudicate.
Originally Posted by SRD
Originally Posted by Variation OneOriginally Posted by Variation Two
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2020-10-18, 01:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2019
Re: Down a rabbit hole with Ranged Disarm
Your interpretation isn't technically incorrect. However, to use a conjunction to bring two concepts together and then use an adjective phrase in a position to describe both to only describe one is simply poor writing and communication. Writing can't communicate inflections and pauses very well. It's either "chalk it up to author error/poor communication skills" or except it as it is written. Maybe they used voice to text? To cut back on the carpel tunnel? Honestly, it's still hard to read it the way you point out. I also don't disagree with them being ranged weapons as fighters should be able to stack the mastery feats.
The biggest benefit is being able to throw your weapon as an attack instead of as a standard/full-round action. Improvised melee weapons don't have that handicap from the get go as you can instantly use them as part of an attack routine.Last edited by Darg; 2020-10-18 at 01:34 AM.
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2020-10-20, 12:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2016
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- No Longer The Frostfell
Re: Down a rabbit hole with Ranged Disarm
I'm having a difficult time parsing what the conflict/question in this thread is at this point? Is the argument being made that thrown weapons are not ranged attacks, but melee attacks? Or is this argument being made only when referring to improvised thrown weapons? Or is it none of the above?
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2020-10-21, 12:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2019
Re: Down a rabbit hole with Ranged Disarm
1) Ranged Disarm requires a ranged weapon.
2) Melee thrown weapons are melee weapons.
3) None of the books say anything about the thrown quality intrinsically making the weapon ranged.
4) If melee thrown weapons are not ranged weapons, then by definition they can't make ranged attacks.
Thus, you have Saintheart linking a rules article published by WotC that state melee thrown weapons are indeed ranged weapons. If the article didn't exist then there is a hole in the rules where it doesn't say what type of attack a thrown melee weapon is. Where does the line of liberal vs literal interpretation begin and end? No one knows because a table simply makes a decision and rolls with it.
Bonus: Ranged Disarm doesn't change the rules of disarm which means you make a melee attack to disarm with even at range.
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2020-10-21, 11:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2016
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- No Longer The Frostfell
Re: Down a rabbit hole with Ranged Disarm
1) sure, no contest on that bit.
2) melee weapons that are thrown are improvised thrown weapons. These are described in the thrown weapons section of the Player's Handbook (page 113, paragraph titled Thrown Weapons). If a melee weapon does not have any range increment, it can be used as an improvised thrown weapon. If it has a range increment, it can be used as a thrown weapon.
3) This is false. The Player's Handbook answers this specifically in one sentence:
Originally Posted by Player's Handbook, pg 112
4) So we've determined that melee weapons that are being thrown are ranged weapons, regardless of whether they are improvised or not since both improvised and non-improvised are under the same Thrown Weapons paragraph. Then you look at the very first paragraph of the weapon's category section and see the very explicit line that says "ranged, which includes both thrown and projectile weapons".
There is no need for a WoTC article. There's no need for a liberal interpretation. There's no need for an interpretation at all. The rules are clear, and distinct on the matter.
Also, if that's your "bonus" that's a crappy bonus because that would mean that you have to take a -4 improvised melee weapon penalty if you're attempting to do this with a projectile weapon, and you can't take the ranged disarm feat with something like a greatsword since it's not a ranged weapon.
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2020-10-21, 01:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2019
Re: Down a rabbit hole with Ranged Disarm
That doesn't change the fact that they are melee weapons.
The categories are laid out in the tables. It can be inferred that they are ranged weapons, but the text doesn't say all thrown weapons are ranged as there are two distinctly separate categories of thrown weapons. You have melee thrown weapons and ranged thrown weapons.
You made an inference based on the assumption of the meaning of a particular sentence which has possible alternative meanings. The more direct meaning is that the ranged category segregates thrown weapons.
That's not true. You aren't using improvising your weapon as a melee weapon. You would simply be using your melee attack modifiers for a melee attack at range. This means you would be taking the using a ranged weapon in melee penalty either as you aren't in melee because the target isn't within reach.
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2020-10-22, 03:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2016
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Re: Down a rabbit hole with Ranged Disarm
Text trumps tables. The text says that weapons that are effective to use in close combat are melee weapons and that weapons effective to use at a distance are ranged weapons, even going so far as to specifically call out projectile and thrown weapons, and the text says that thrown weapons bridge these categories.
You made an inference based on the assumption of the meaning of a particular sentence which has possible alternative meanings. The more direct meaning is that the ranged category segregates thrown weapons.
That's not true. You aren't using improvising your weapon as a melee weapon. You would simply be using your melee attack modifiers for a melee attack at range. This means you would be taking the using a ranged weapon in melee penalty either as you aren't in melee because the target isn't within reach.
If this is how you want to play your game, I can't, and truly don't want to stop you. However, you are willfully ignoring logic and even the rules. Play the game you want to play, and have fun with it. However, I don't think you'll find many who agree with your interpretation of the rules.