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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default Down a rabbit hole with Ranged Disarm

    While tinkering with other projects, I reread the Ranged Disarm feat from Complete Warrior. I realized that it's kind of unclear in a few parts:

    The first part is clear enough. Ranged weapons are classified separately from Light, One, and Two handed weapons, so there is neither a bonus nor a penalty to any explicitly Ranged weapon listed in the books. That includes your thrown only weapons like darts and javelins, even shuriken.

    But... What happens with melee weapons when thrown in conjunction with the feat? Do they retain their melee size category for the throw (along with the associated size bonus or penalty) or do they default to being considered a Ranged weapon for the duration, losing any bonus or penalty to disarm derived from melee weapon classification?

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    Default Re: Down a rabbit hole with Ranged Disarm

    That is interesting. They would retain their nature as 2handed or light. They don't stop being those things because they are thrown.
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    Default Re: Down a rabbit hole with Ranged Disarm

    I remember there was some relatively well buried rule or possibly definition in the SRD that stated that thrown weapons were treated as Ranged, that could theoretically be used to justify them functioning fully as ranged weapons. I could very well be mistaken, though. I'm not having any luck tracking it down. It's also late here and I'm supposed to be up in 5 hours.

    But also melee classifications remain relevant to thrown weapons for action economy purposes, so yeah, You're right. they probably would retain their associated modifiers at that.

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    Default Re: Down a rabbit hole with Ranged Disarm

    Well, the SRD states that ranged attacks are made with ranged weapons. Some thrown weapons are melee weapons. If melee thrown weapons aren't ranged weapons then they can't make ranged attacks; negating any benefit to being able to be thrown which is not the intent of a thrown weapon.

    So there are two possibilities. First is that melee thrown weapons are thrown as melee attacks. The second is that thrown weapons are ranged weapons. With the first option you don't need the feat/precise shot. With the second option you would.

    I personally don't mind the first option, but my groups use the second.

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    Default Re: Down a rabbit hole with Ranged Disarm

    When you throw a melee weapon, it is a ranged attack. You use your dex and so on. They are not treated as melee attacks unless you are a bloodstorm blade.
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    Default Re: Down a rabbit hole with Ranged Disarm

    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    When you throw a melee weapon, it is a ranged attack. You use your dex and so on. They are not treated as melee attacks unless you are a bloodstorm blade.
    Except ranged attacks are made with ranged weapons. Literally nothing I can find says that melee thrown weapons are ranged weapons or that "thrown" implies a ranged weapon. Even the throw anything feat is written in such a way that doesn't clarify this issue.

    The rules compendium only has this to say:

    Quote Originally Posted by RC
    Melee weapons are used for making
    melee attacks, though some of them
    can be thrown as well. Ranged
    weapons are thrown weapons or
    projectile weapons that aren’t effec-
    tive in melee. Some melee weapons
    can be thrown, bridging these two
    categories.
    It clarifies nothing. Melee thrown weapons exist in this lapse of clarification. Nothing says they make ranged attacks. Inferring the answer is as salty as it sounds.
    Last edited by Darg; 2020-10-14 at 10:54 AM.

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    Default Re: Down a rabbit hole with Ranged Disarm

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    Except ranged attacks are made with ranged weapons. Literally nothing I can find says that melee thrown weapons are ranged weapons or that "thrown" implies a ranged weapon. Even the throw anything feat is written in such a way that doesn't clarify this issue.

    The rules compendium only has this to say:



    It clarifies nothing. Melee thrown weapons exist in this lapse of clarification. Nothing says they make ranged attacks. Inferring the answer is as salty as it sounds.
    {scrubbed}
    a weapon used for mellee is a mellee weapon...
    a weapon used for ranged is a ranged weapon...

    A weapon that CAN be thrown is a mellee weapon when Weilded and a ranged weapon thrown....

    A Bow is a ranged weapon when shot, and a improvised weaon in mellee
    a longsword is a Mellee weapon when you swing it , but and improvised weapon when you throw it.
    A dagger is a dagger regardless of wither you throw it or stab with it.....

    {scrubbed}
    Last edited by Peelee; 2020-10-17 at 08:35 PM.

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    Default Re: Down a rabbit hole with Ranged Disarm

    Here's where I point out for about the third time at least the WOTC Rules of the Game article on this subject:

    Throwing Melee Weapons

    You can throw any melee weapon whose statistics don't include a range increment, provided you can wield it in one or two hands. You can hurl such a weapon up to 50 feet; it effectively has a range increment of 10 feet.

    You always take a -4 penalty for nonproficiency when you throw a weapon that's not meant to be thrown -- it just doesn't work well in that role. Throwing a melee weapon that's not suitable for ranged attacks requires a standard action if you can wield it in one hand. If you must use two hands to wield the weapon, throwing it requires a full-round action. Because you need a standard or full-round action to throw such a weapon once, you cannot make iterative attacks when doing so.

    Some Selected Thrown Weapons

    Here are a few thrown weapons worth discussing, either because they're a little strange or just because doing so will allow us to cover a few points we haven't examined yet.

    Dagger: A dagger is one of several thrown weapons that you can use in melee or at range. It works just like a melee weapon when you use it in a melee attack. When you chuck the dagger at a target, you treat it as a thrown weapon. Use your Dexterity modifier for the attack roll when you throw it, and then use your Strength modifier for the damage roll if your attack hits. When you make a ranged attack by throwing a dagger, the act provokes attacks of opportunity, as noted in Part One, even though you can make melee attacks with the dagger that do not provoke attacks of opportunity.
    Ergo, Point Blank Shot works with daggers. A dagger is a ranged weapon, and you can make ranged attacks with it even though it can also be used as a melee weapon. More generally, when you throw an improvised weapon, it is a ranged attack right down to having a range increment of 10 feet.

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    Default Re: Down a rabbit hole with Ranged Disarm

    Quote Originally Posted by Morty_Jhones View Post
    This is some deliberate obtuse reasioning...

    a weapon used for mellee is a mellee weapon...
    a weapon used for ranged is a ranged weapon...

    A weapon that CAN be thrown is a mellee weapon when Weilded and a ranged weapon thrown....

    A Bow is a ranged weapon when shot, and a improvised weaon in mellee
    a longsword is a Mellee weapon when you swing it , but and improvised weapon when you throw it.
    A dagger is a dagger regardless of wither you throw it or stab with it.....

    You TROLL...
    That is some major venom coming my way. There is no reason you should be upset by my pointing out RAW interactions. As far as I can tell, nothing RAW states that thrown weapons are ranged weapons only when thrown or at all. Improvised thrown weapons and improvised melee weapons have completely separate rules dictating how they function. Even the Throw Anything feat doesn't turn the melee weapons into ranged weapons even when thrown, but because of the claimer "as if it were a ranged weapon" you can make a ranged attack. Thrown weapons in general don't have that.

    It's simply a hole in the rules. As you say, a dagger will be a melee weapon whether you throw or stab it. The question is whether it is also a ranged weapon or not as it needs to be to make a ranged attack. The rules are quite hush about it. Unless you would like to quote a source that says otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saintheart View Post
    Here's where I point out for about the third time at least the WOTC Rules of the Game article on this subject:

    Ergo, Point Blank Shot works with daggers. A dagger is a ranged weapon, and you can make ranged attacks with it even though it can also be used as a melee weapon. More generally, when you throw an improvised weapon, it is a ranged attack right down to having a range increment of 10 feet.
    Too bad it's not in the books. It would make your life easier. I've never actually seen that article; so, thanks for the link.
    Last edited by Darg; 2020-10-17 at 08:47 PM.

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    Default Re: Down a rabbit hole with Ranged Disarm

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    Too bad it's not in the books. It would make your life easier. I've never actually seen that article; so, thanks for the link.
    I find that, combined with the definition of what a ranged weapon actually is, makes it pretty simple to adjudicate.

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.
    As I've noted before, that sentence (which comes direct from the PHB, pages 114-116) can be read one of two ways:

    Quote Originally Posted by Variation One
    Ranged weapons are
    1. thrown weapons; or
    2. projectile weapons
    that are not effective in melee
    Quote Originally Posted by Variation Two
    Ranged weapons are
    1. thrown weapons; or
    2. projectile weapons that are not effective in melee
    Under either definition, a thrown weapon - whether it's suited to melee, such as a dagger, or not suited to melee, such as a javelin - is a ranged weapon. Any weapon can be thrown as an improvised weapon, and it's deemed to have a range increment of 10 feet as well as taking a -4 to the lack of proficiency. All Throw Anything does, really, is give you back the weapon's critical multiplier and remove the -4 penalty; it still has a range increment of 10 feet. Either way, that's enough to make it a ranged weapon when thrown.

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    Default Re: Down a rabbit hole with Ranged Disarm

    Quote Originally Posted by Saintheart View Post
    As I've noted before, that sentence (which comes direct from the PHB, pages 114-116) can be read one of two ways:

    Your interpretation isn't technically incorrect. However, to use a conjunction to bring two concepts together and then use an adjective phrase in a position to describe both to only describe one is simply poor writing and communication. Writing can't communicate inflections and pauses very well. It's either "chalk it up to author error/poor communication skills" or except it as it is written. Maybe they used voice to text? To cut back on the carpel tunnel? Honestly, it's still hard to read it the way you point out. I also don't disagree with them being ranged weapons as fighters should be able to stack the mastery feats.


    Quote Originally Posted by Saintheart View Post
    Under either definition, a thrown weapon - whether it's suited to melee, such as a dagger, or not suited to melee, such as a javelin - is a ranged weapon. Any weapon can be thrown as an improvised weapon, and it's deemed to have a range increment of 10 feet as well as taking a -4 to the lack of proficiency. All Throw Anything does, really, is give you back the weapon's critical multiplier and remove the -4 penalty; it still has a range increment of 10 feet. Either way, that's enough to make it a ranged weapon when thrown.
    The biggest benefit is being able to throw your weapon as an attack instead of as a standard/full-round action. Improvised melee weapons don't have that handicap from the get go as you can instantly use them as part of an attack routine.
    Last edited by Darg; 2020-10-18 at 01:34 AM.

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    DwarfBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Down a rabbit hole with Ranged Disarm

    I'm having a difficult time parsing what the conflict/question in this thread is at this point? Is the argument being made that thrown weapons are not ranged attacks, but melee attacks? Or is this argument being made only when referring to improvised thrown weapons? Or is it none of the above?

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    Default Re: Down a rabbit hole with Ranged Disarm

    Quote Originally Posted by AnimeTheCat View Post
    I'm having a difficult time parsing what the conflict/question in this thread is at this point? Is the argument being made that thrown weapons are not ranged attacks, but melee attacks? Or is this argument being made only when referring to improvised thrown weapons? Or is it none of the above?
    1) Ranged Disarm requires a ranged weapon.

    2) Melee thrown weapons are melee weapons.

    3) None of the books say anything about the thrown quality intrinsically making the weapon ranged.

    4) If melee thrown weapons are not ranged weapons, then by definition they can't make ranged attacks.

    Thus, you have Saintheart linking a rules article published by WotC that state melee thrown weapons are indeed ranged weapons. If the article didn't exist then there is a hole in the rules where it doesn't say what type of attack a thrown melee weapon is. Where does the line of liberal vs literal interpretation begin and end? No one knows because a table simply makes a decision and rolls with it.

    Bonus: Ranged Disarm doesn't change the rules of disarm which means you make a melee attack to disarm with even at range.

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    Default Re: Down a rabbit hole with Ranged Disarm

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    1) Ranged Disarm requires a ranged weapon.

    2) Melee thrown weapons are melee weapons.

    3) None of the books say anything about the thrown quality intrinsically making the weapon ranged.

    4) If melee thrown weapons are not ranged weapons, then by definition they can't make ranged attacks.

    Thus, you have Saintheart linking a rules article published by WotC that state melee thrown weapons are indeed ranged weapons. If the article didn't exist then there is a hole in the rules where it doesn't say what type of attack a thrown melee weapon is. Where does the line of liberal vs literal interpretation begin and end? No one knows because a table simply makes a decision and rolls with it.

    Bonus: Ranged Disarm doesn't change the rules of disarm which means you make a melee attack to disarm with even at range.
    1) sure, no contest on that bit.
    2) melee weapons that are thrown are improvised thrown weapons. These are described in the thrown weapons section of the Player's Handbook (page 113, paragraph titled Thrown Weapons). If a melee weapon does not have any range increment, it can be used as an improvised thrown weapon. If it has a range increment, it can be used as a thrown weapon.
    3) This is false. The Player's Handbook answers this specifically in one sentence:
    Quote Originally Posted by Player's Handbook, pg 112
    Weapons are grouped into several interlocking sets of categories. These categories pertain to what training is needed to become proficient in a weapon's use (simple, martial, or exotic), the weapons usefulness in either close combat (melee) or at a distance (ranged, which includes both thrown and projectile weapons), its relative encumbrance (light, on-handed, or two-handed), and its size (small, medium, or large).
    Thrown and projectile weapons are ranged weapons.
    4) So we've determined that melee weapons that are being thrown are ranged weapons, regardless of whether they are improvised or not since both improvised and non-improvised are under the same Thrown Weapons paragraph. Then you look at the very first paragraph of the weapon's category section and see the very explicit line that says "ranged, which includes both thrown and projectile weapons".

    There is no need for a WoTC article. There's no need for a liberal interpretation. There's no need for an interpretation at all. The rules are clear, and distinct on the matter.

    Also, if that's your "bonus" that's a crappy bonus because that would mean that you have to take a -4 improvised melee weapon penalty if you're attempting to do this with a projectile weapon, and you can't take the ranged disarm feat with something like a greatsword since it's not a ranged weapon.

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    Default Re: Down a rabbit hole with Ranged Disarm

    Quote Originally Posted by AnimeTheCat View Post
    2) melee weapons that are thrown are improvised thrown weapons. These are described in the thrown weapons section of the Player's Handbook (page 113, paragraph titled Thrown Weapons). If a melee weapon does not have any range increment, it can be used as an improvised thrown weapon. If it has a range increment, it can be used as a thrown weapon.
    That doesn't change the fact that they are melee weapons.

    Quote Originally Posted by AnimeTheCat View Post
    3) This is false. The Player's Handbook answers this specifically in one sentence:

    Thrown and projectile weapons are ranged weapons.
    The categories are laid out in the tables. It can be inferred that they are ranged weapons, but the text doesn't say all thrown weapons are ranged as there are two distinctly separate categories of thrown weapons. You have melee thrown weapons and ranged thrown weapons.

    Quote Originally Posted by AnimeTheCat View Post
    4) So we've determined that melee weapons that are being thrown are ranged weapons, regardless of whether they are improvised or not since both improvised and non-improvised are under the same Thrown Weapons paragraph. Then you look at the very first paragraph of the weapon's category section and see the very explicit line that says "ranged, which includes both thrown and projectile weapons".

    There is no need for a WoTC article. There's no need for a liberal interpretation. There's no need for an interpretation at all. The rules are clear, and distinct on the matter.
    You made an inference based on the assumption of the meaning of a particular sentence which has possible alternative meanings. The more direct meaning is that the ranged category segregates thrown weapons.

    Quote Originally Posted by AnimeTheCat View Post
    Also, if that's your "bonus" that's a crappy bonus because that would mean that you have to take a -4 improvised melee weapon penalty if you're attempting to do this with a projectile weapon, and you can't take the ranged disarm feat with something like a greatsword since it's not a ranged weapon.
    That's not true. You aren't using improvising your weapon as a melee weapon. You would simply be using your melee attack modifiers for a melee attack at range. This means you would be taking the using a ranged weapon in melee penalty either as you aren't in melee because the target isn't within reach.

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    Default Re: Down a rabbit hole with Ranged Disarm

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    That doesn't change the fact that they are melee weapons.



    The categories are laid out in the tables. It can be inferred that they are ranged weapons, but the text doesn't say all thrown weapons are ranged as there are two distinctly separate categories of thrown weapons. You have melee thrown weapons and ranged thrown weapons.
    Text trumps tables. The text says that weapons that are effective to use in close combat are melee weapons and that weapons effective to use at a distance are ranged weapons, even going so far as to specifically call out projectile and thrown weapons, and the text says that thrown weapons bridge these categories.

    You made an inference based on the assumption of the meaning of a particular sentence which has possible alternative meanings. The more direct meaning is that the ranged category segregates thrown weapons.
    Does the second sentence of the first paragraph, second item in the list of items separated by commas, under the heading Weapon Categories say "...effective at a distance (ranged, which includes both thrown and projectile weapons),..." or does it say "...effective at a distance (ranged, which is different from both thrown and projectile weapons),..." or... whatever it is that you're trying to say it says but it doesn't say.

    That's not true. You aren't using improvising your weapon as a melee weapon. You would simply be using your melee attack modifiers for a melee attack at range. This means you would be taking the using a ranged weapon in melee penalty either as you aren't in melee because the target isn't within reach.
    sure... I guess (but not really). That would work except for the fact that you have to pick a ranged weapon that you are proficient with, and that you can make a disarm attempt with that weapon against a target that you are within 30 feet of. So by your logic, I would take my longbow and make a melee attack with it, or my arrow whichever you prefer. Either way, neither of those are melee weapons and thus would take a -4 penalty on the attack roll with them for being improvised weapons in melee combat, as they are not suited for melee combat. You literally can't take the ranged disarm feat with a weapon that is not a ranged weapon. Your interpretation may work for some thrown weapons, such as daggers, throwing axes, and spears, but it would not work with javelins, nets, shuriken, or darts. All of the latter are not appropriate for melee combat, and thus would carry a -4 penalty to hit with them as you're resolving your disarm as a melee attack. Though, if you're ruling that those (daggers, throwing axes, spears, etc) are melee weapons, you can't take the Ranged Disarm feat with them anyway, so no matter what way you cut it, you'll take a -4 penalty to the attack roll (probably more) because you're using a weapon to make a melee attack that is not suited to make a melee attack.

    If this is how you want to play your game, I can't, and truly don't want to stop you. However, you are willfully ignoring logic and even the rules. Play the game you want to play, and have fun with it. However, I don't think you'll find many who agree with your interpretation of the rules.

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