readying a strike vs a reachy boi

[Raishoiken]

if someone attacks you using a natural weapon using their reach, is there anything stopping you from readying an action to attack that limb instead of them directly?

[Kurald Galain]

No, but you can't make a full attack that way, and it may be wasted if the enemy decides to attack someone lelse.

So yes, it's a good idea, with some downsides.

(edit) I should note that there is no rule that explicitly says that you can do this, but as it makes sense and there is also no rule explicitly against it, it falls under "things a reasonable DM would probably allow".

[ExLibrisMortis]

If you don't threaten any of their squares, you can't attack them. Simple as that.

[Thurbane]

If you don't threaten any of their squares, you can't attack them. Simple as that.

^^ This. Unfortunately, natural reach doesn't mean the creature is coming into your threatened range.

Can you take a 5 ft step as part of a readies action? That might help against some creatures.

[Psyren]

if someone attacks you using a natural weapon using their reach, is there anything stopping you from readying an action to attack that limb instead of them directly?

You mean if they have greater reach than you do and stay out of yours? No, you can't attack them by RAW, even though they are (presumably) extending a limb/appendage/etc into your square. Your threatened area represents the squares you can attack effectively, and if the opponent is outside of that then your attacks against them are ineffective.

[Darg]

If we want to be technical on the definition of holding something and pay attention to the apparent immunity some weapons have if we don't, certain natural weapons can be sundered. Sunder is quite lacking in the worn weapon department such as is the case for a spiked gauntlet unless the definition of holding something is broadened beyond the specific case of holding something in hand. By definition you grasp, carry, or support something to be holding something. In this way a spiked gauntlet is a held weapon. In the same way a wolf's paw holds it's claws which makes them held weapons. As natural weapons are part of the creature itself you are making an attack against the creature itself.

The biggest problem with attacking a creature that attacks you is that HP is an abstraction that doesn't necessitate you actually being harmed physically. A "hit" can be an attack that excessively depleted your physical/mental stamina (hence why a character can realistically have hundreds of HP). The only instances by RAW of a weapon actually entering spaces is for coup de grace, a projectile being shot or thrown, or special actions that require contact of some form such as bull rush, disarm, grapple, sunder, or tripping.

[Khedrac]

As previous posters have said, the RAW is that if you do not threaten them you cannot attack them.

Thurbane's suggesiton however is correct - If you haven't already moved in your turn you can include a 5' step as part of a readied action, this might enable you to get to a place where you can attack from, but if their reach is more than 5' greater than yours you need one of the 10' step tricks at the very least.

My personal houserule (and I think the DMs I play with use this too) is that you can ready an action to attack the part of the creature that comes within reach. Still doesn't help with creatures using manufactured weapons unless you want to break out the sunder/disarm rules.

[Psyren]

In the same way a wolf's paw holds it's claws which makes them held weapons.

That's a... uh... interesting interpretation.

[bean illus]

No, but you can't make a full attack that way, and it may be wasted if the enemy decides to attack someone lelse.

So yes, it's a good idea, with some downsides.

As previous posters have said, the RAW is that if you do not threaten them you cannot attack them.

My personal houserule (and I think the DMs I play with use this too) is that you can ready an action to attack the part of the creature that comes within reach. Still doesn't help with creatures using manufactured weapons unless you want to break out the sunder/disarm rules.

I'm with Kurald Galain and Khedrac on this one. Though i understand the rule the other posters note, it seems illogical to me that you can ready a sunder or disarm, but not a single swing at a tentacle.

But, as noted, you would get a single swing, and if the opponent doesn't attack your action is wasted. There are quite probably better options.

[Darg]

That's a... uh... interesting interpretation.

I've never used it, but it isn't technically incorrect either.

[Hiro Quester]

A creature like a giant octopus explicitly describes how you can attack the tentacle that is attacking or trying to grapple you, like a sunder attempt, even if the creature is out of your reach.

It might be reasonable to use this as the basis of a house-rule for other natural weapons with reach.

[Crake]

Can you take a 5 ft step as part of a readies action? That might help against some creatures.

You can indeed!

You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don’t otherwise move any distance during the round.

[clarkcd]

I've never used it, but it isn't technically incorrect either.

I would disagree.

Sunder
You can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding.

Sunder can only be used against a held weapon or shield.

Gauntlet, Spiked
Simple Light Melee

The spiked gauntlet is a light melee weapon. All manufactured weapons, barring magical enchantments, must be held to be used in melee. Therefore a spiked gauntlet is a held weapon.

Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature.

Natural weapons are not held by the creature, they are part of the creature. There is no mechanical difference between a bite attack, a claw attack, a sting attack or a tentacle attack. They can not be sundered as targeting individual parts of a creature is not permitted in the RAW. It is implied due to high AC of some creatures that you have to hit a specific part of them but that is as close as you get.

to have or maintain in the grasp

As you mentioned the actual dictionary definition of the word, at no point would a wolf be considered to to have or maintain in the grasp its claws, an octopus wouldn't be considered to to have or maintain in the grasp its tentacles and a scorpion would not be considered to to have or maintain in the grasp its tail.

[Darg]

I would disagree.



Sunder can only be used against a held weapon or shield.



The spiked gauntlet is a light melee weapon. All manufactured weapons, barring magical enchantments, must be held to be used in melee. Therefore a spiked gauntlet is a held weapon.



Natural weapons are not held by the creature, they are part of the creature. There is no mechanical difference between a bite attack, a claw attack, a sting attack or a tentacle attack. They can not be sundered as targeting individual parts of a creature is not permitted in the RAW. It is implied due to high AC of some creatures that you have to hit a specific part of them but that is as close as you get.



As you mentioned the actual dictionary definition of the word, at no point would a wolf be considered to to have or maintain in the grasp its claws, an octopus wouldn't be considered to to have or maintain in the grasp its tentacles and a scorpion would not be considered to to have or maintain in the grasp its tail.

Hold has so many definitions and you are only using a single one. I definitely disagree with your argument that a gauntlet is grasped with your hand. You don't have to grasp a gauntlet for it to be held by your hand. Heck, you can extend your fingers or grasp something else and still maintain a hold on the gauntlets. I also mentioned only certain natural attacks can be considered "held." An octopus doesn't hold its tentacles as its the tentacles that support it. On the other hand, a mindflayer supports/carries its tentacles with its face.

Your explanation still doesn't solve the issue of armor spikes. You aren't holding it in your grasp at all and you don't have to hold it in your hand to use it even though it is a manufactured weapon. Sunder doesn't allow sundering worn weapons and sundering the armor does not destroy the spike. The only way it can be sundered is if "held" has an actually broader definition than "being in hand."

I only mentioned the sundering as a technical hurdle, not a beneficial gameplay mechanic. I also mentioned that readying an action to sunder something is also pretty pointless as the only times it could actually be useful is when there really isn't really a need for it or it's too late. That is unless you want an active way to swipe an arrow out of the air.

[clarkcd]

Hold has so many definitions and you are only using a single one.

Sure. Most words have multiple definitions but I am using the one that is most applicable to the situation.

LINK

From the above link there are 10 basic definitions to the word hold. They can't all apply at once.

Regardless of spiked gauntlets or spiked armor the point you originally made was that some natural attacks could be sundered and some could not and that is not in the RAW anywhere. ALL natural weapons are treated the same. ALL natural weapons are a part of the creature. ALL natural weapons are immune from sunder.

[Morty_Jhones]

Yes you can, ready an action to strike at a creatures tentical/long arm as it attacks you...

you are making a, ready action - Aimed strike.

You take a -2 penalty to hit if its an arm or leg of a Large creature and +/-2 per size catogery up or down the target is.
If your target is over 2 size catogerys larger than yourself you may only target body or legs (stomps)

if you hit and inflict more than one quater the creatures total HP (real or subdule damage) you render the limb unusable.

hope this helps.

[liquidformat]

Sure. Most words have multiple definitions but I am using the one that is most applicable to the situation.

LINK

From the above link there are 10 basic definitions to the word hold. They can't all apply at once.

Regardless of spiked gauntlets or spiked armor the point you originally made was that some natural attacks could be sundered and some could not and that is not in the RAW anywhere. ALL natural weapons are treated the same. ALL natural weapons are a part of the creature. ALL natural weapons are immune from sunder.

It would be great if you actually read, at the very least things already mentioned in the thread before making such statements...

A creature like a giant octopus explicitly describes how you can attack the tentacle that is attacking or trying to grapple you, like a sunder attempt, even if the creature is out of your reach.

An opponent can attack a giant octopus’s tentacles with a sunder attempt as if they were weapons. A giant octopus’s tentacles have 10 hit points each. If a giant octopus is currently grappling a target with the tentacle that is being attacked, it usually uses another limb to make its attack of opportunity against the opponent making the sunder attempt. Severing one of a giant octopus’s tentacles deals 5 points of damage to the creature.

It would also be good to fully read the things you link to:

You don’t use an opposed attack roll to damage a carried or worn object. Instead, just make an attack roll against the object’s AC. A carried or worn object’s AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier + the Dexterity modifier of the carrying or wearing character. Attacking a carried or worn object provokes an attack of opportunity just as attacking a held object does. To attempt to snatch away an item worn by a defender rather than damage it, see Disarm. You can’t sunder armor worn by another character.

Things like armor or gauntlets being worn items would be subject to the rules of sundering a carried or worn item.

If Pathfinder is on the table then I would suggest looking at Called Shot Rules even if you aren't using PF it is still probably a decent place to start along with the Giant Octopus rules to come up with some rules at your table.

[clarkcd]

It would be great if you actually read, at the very least things already mentioned in the thread before making such statements...

You are correct that I didn't read every other post in this thread because I don't care about them. Every reference I was making was to refute the assertion that Darg made about being able to sunder a wolf's claws and nothing more.

You can't sunder a wolf's claws because the wolf does not hold them. That is the length and breadth of my interest in this thread. Nothing you mentioned contradicts this. The octopus tentacle sundering is specifically mentioned in the entry for an octopus because it is an exception to the general rule that natural weapons can not be sundered. A wolf has no such entry. A wolf's claws can not be sundered.

It would also be good to fully read the things you link to:

I fully read what I linked to. The part you quoted has nothing to do with the assertion that Darg made about being able to sunder a wolf's claws because they hold them in their paws.

House rule away because it's your game and I don't care what you do in your game to have fun. By the RAW:

Wolves do not hold their claws.
Wolves do not wear their claws.
Wolves do not carry their claws.
Wolf claws can not be sundered.

[liquidformat]

You are correct that I didn't read every other post in this thread because I don't care about them. Every reference I was making was to refute the assertion that Darg made about being able to sunder a wolf's claws and nothing more.

You can't sunder a wolf's claws because the wolf does not hold them. That is the length and breadth of my interest in this thread. Nothing you mentioned contradicts this. The octopus tentacle sundering is specifically mentioned in the entry for an octopus because it is an exception to the general rule that natural weapons can not be sundered. A wolf has no such entry. A wolf's claws can not be sundered.



I fully read what I linked to. The part you quoted has nothing to do with the assertion that Darg made about being able to sunder a wolf's claws because they hold them in their paws.

House rule away because it's your game and I don't care what you do in your game to have fun. By the RAW:

Wolves do not hold their claws.
Wolves do not wear their claws.
Wolves do not carry their claws.
Wolf claws can not be sundered.

That's all well and good, and yet it wasn't your only claim. What you said is:

was that some natural attacks could be sundered and some could not and that is not in the RAW anywhere. ALL natural weapons are treated the same. ALL natural weapons are a part of the creature. ALL natural weapons are immune from sunder.

which is proven incorrect by the giant octopus link;

and

Sunder can only be used against a held weapon or shield.



The spiked gauntlet is a light melee weapon. All manufactured weapons, barring magical enchantments, must be held to be used in melee. Therefore a spiked gauntlet is a held weapon.

which is proven wrong by your own link, sunder can be used on worn and carried items not just held items and a spiked gauntlet is a worn item not a carried item.

[clarkcd]

That's all well and good, and yet it wasn't your only claim. What you said is:

which is proven incorrect by the giant octopus link;

Again, all of my quotes were within the context of disproving that a wolves claws could be sundered. Nothing I wrote should be taken in the larger context of all monster entries. You correctly pointed out that there are specific exceptions to the general rule and I have conceded the point.

which is proven wrong by your own link, sunder can be used on worn and carried items not just held items and a spiked gauntlet is a worn item not a carried item.

Regardless of the specificity of when you can use sunder the general point I was trying to make stands true. Whether you classify a spiked gauntlet as held, worn or carried it can be sundered legally as RAW and does not have any bearing, due to its similarity to a wolf claw, on whether you can sunder a wolf claw.

I will further concede that a broader view of the sunder rule would have more easily proven that a wolf claw could not be sundered.