New Critical Role content on D&D Beyond: Paladin Oath and re-done Cobalt Soul Monk

[CMCC]

So Marine Layer means a Wood Elf can always hide in the fog thanks to their Mask of the Wild feature, correct?

They’re heavily obscured so no need to hide. Edit: in melee they would. Good point on the wood elf. I missed that they changed the “creatures you choose” clause too.

Wow they really nerfed this thing.

[Unoriginal]

They’re heavily obscured so no need to hide. Edit: in melee they would. Good point on the wood elf.

Being heavily obscured make you unseen, but it does not make you unheard. You need to hide if you don't want the possibility of enemies locating you by sound.

You're right that Mask of the Wild doesn't change anything at range, though, since it only affects Wood Elves who are lightly obscured.

Wow they really nerfed this thing.

Yeah, if I'm reading it correctly the Paladin's enemies who are within 5ft of the Paladin are also only treating the fog like light obscurity.

Matt Mercer is a good DM in term of storytelling, and he's extremely skilled at establishing the feel of a scene almost immediately and at making memorable characters, but he does have troubles estimating how powerful X or Y mechanics are, or remembering the definition of various mechanical effects.

Funniest instance of this is when he accidentally made his affable magic item seller an expert at mind control due to not remembering what the Enchantment school was about (and thinking it was about enchanting items/buffing people).

[CMCC]

Being heavily obscured make you unseen, but it does not make you unheard. You need to hide if you don't want the possibility of enemies locating you by sound.

You're right that Mask of the Wild doesn't change anything, though, since it only affects Wood Elves who are lightly obscured.

For combat you’d still have advantage and enemies would have disadvantage in heavy obscurement. No need to hide. But for stealth you’d need to hide.

[ProsecutorGodot]

For combat you’d still have advantage and enemies would have disadvantage in heavy obscurement. No need to hide. But for stealth you’d need to hide.

The thing about this though is that the Paladin oath is heavily tailored towards melee combat, enemies within 5ft of you are also treating this fog as lightly obscured. A reach build is doable but you miss out on one of the better aspects of the already lackluster capstone.

Actually, just forget about the capstone and use a reach weapon. All of the other abilities work with it and it's the only way you have a melee weapon that gets advantage from marine layer. Though I think with this new restriction I would favor Fury of the Tides more unless remaining hidden from far off enemies is a bigger advantage.

Imagining a sea faring Paladin who whips his enemies overboard with a twirling glaive is giving me some good vibes right now.

[Unoriginal]

Actually, just forget about the capstone and use a reach weapon. All of the other abilities work with it and it's the only way you have a melee weapon that gets advantage from marine layer.

A Bugbear would be able to take advantage of it regardless of the weapon used, too.

Imagining a sea faring Paladin who whips his enemies overboard with a twirling glaive is giving me some good vibes right now.

Using a whip to do it would be awesome as well.

EDIT:

Just noticed that Fury of the Tides do work with Whirlwind Attack. And 3 levels of Sea Paladin are hardly wasted on a Ranger.

[ProsecutorGodot]

A Bugbear would be able to take advantage of it regardless of the weapon used, too.

Only downside to the bugbear strategy is that the 15th level feature is a range of 5ft without an actual reach weapon. No reason you couldn't be a bugbear and use a reach weapon though.

Huge major disgusting thing I just noticed about Stormy Waters by the way... it doesn't say willingly or even moves for that matter, just enter or exit. Doesn't that mean you could trigger it from Fury of the Tides? Disengage doesn't prevent it either.

Using a whip to do it would be awesome as well.

Any excuse to use a whip is a good thing.

Just noticed that Fury of the Tides do work with Whirlwind Attack. And 3 levels of Sea Paladin are hardly wasted on a Ranger.

If only I had a campaign to be playing this character in right now, been a while since the sheer novelty of an idea has got me so interested in playing a new character.

[CMCC]

The thing about this though is that the Paladin oath is heavily tailored towards melee combat, enemies within 5ft of you are also treating this fog as lightly obscured. A reach build is doable but you miss out on one of the better aspects of the already lackluster capstone.

Actually, just forget about the capstone and use a reach weapon. All of the other abilities work with it and it's the only way you have a melee weapon that gets advantage from marine layer. Though I think with this new restriction I would favor Fury of the Tides more unless remaining hidden from far off enemies is a bigger advantage.

Imagining a sea faring Paladin who whips his enemies overboard with a twirling glaive is giving me some good vibes right now.

I meant with the original writing of the ability. It was changed to nerf it.

[Droppeddead]

The way you worded it made it seem like you were only comparing the additional skill and language to other monk capstones.

That's just wrong. I was pointing out that they recieved a mostly useless ribbon at level 17, nothing else.

Also, I feel the need to point out, inflicting vulnerability on something is a rare and powerful ability. The fact that this can be coordinated for any damage type regardless of source is... fun.

Never said it wasn't. However, grave clerics get a better version and level 2.

Open Hand is actually the outlier here, the only other Monk capstone that can even contend in offensive power is Touch of the Long Death, which has a huge Ki cost attached to guarantee that it matches what Open Hand is guaranteed to do. Monk Capstones are actually fairly ordinary barring these two exceptions.

Again, not arguing the capstones, pointing out the uselessness of the ribbon.


So, since this is mostly just a bunch of strawmen arguments I'm not sure if I should even reply but for the sake of open dialogue I will just point out a few things.

It says that you understand all spoken languages. Someone saying words of a language they don't understand out loud, even assuming they can read the actual words, isn't speaking the language.

That's quite literally what it is though. I can't speak Russian but I now that the word 'spasiba' means "thank you in Russian". If I say that to a Russian speaking person, they will understand it. If someone says a bunch of Russian words to me including that one, I won't understand the whole of it but I will understand that particular word.

Except that with Tongue of the Moon and Sun, the Monk's comprehension of the language is based on the speaker's comprehension, as the monk is using their ki to touch the speaker's mind.

Can you quote the rules where it says this?

Can you read those words (without checking the internet)?:

Nice strawman and no. However if I did check the internet for a pronunciation guide to read those words out loud, a person who understands the language who, probably, understand me.

I would also like to point out that I've never once claimed that "Tongue of the Moon and Sun" (I'm assuming that you actually mean Tongue of the Sun and Moon, ;) ) helps anyone read alphabets that they do not already know. If they do however they can read languages they don't understand and have what they say be understood by a 13th level Monk. Again, weird but completely RAW.

So you're saying that "it's weird that they get a ribbon at level 17 where other monks get save or die attacks or radiant damage or super flurry of blows" when they're getting a ribbon AND a useful, damage-increasing feature?

Not that useful, but yes. That is what I wrote.

[diplomancer]

That's just wrong. I was pointing out that they recieved a mostly useless ribbon at level 17, nothing else.


Never said it wasn't. However, grave clerics get a better version and level 2.


Again, not arguing the capstones, pointing out the uselessness of the ribbon.


So, since this is mostly just a bunch of strawmen arguments I'm not sure if I should even reply but for the sake of open dialogue I will just point out a few things.

That's quite literally what it is though. I can't speak Russian but I now that the word 'spasiba' means "thank you in Russian". If I say that to a Russian speaking person, they will understand it. If someone says a bunch of Russian words to me including that one, I won't understand the whole of it but I will understand that particular word.


Can you quote the rules where it says this?


Nice strawman and no. However if I did check the internet for a pronunciation guide to read those words out loud, a person who understands the language who, probably, understand me.

I would also like to point out that I've never once claimed that "Tongue of the Moon and Sun" (I'm assuming that you actually mean Tongue of the Sun and Moon, ;) ) helps anyone read alphabets that they do not already know. If they do however they can read languages they don't understand and have what they say be understood by a 13th level Monk. Again, weird but completely RAW.


Not that useful, but yes. That is what I wrote.

It's interesting that you chose German, of the same language group as English, as your example.

Never mind different alphabets (though you should, since D&D even mention different scripts for different languages), read a paragraph in French following pronounciation rules of English and I very much doubt a French speaker would understand (Get a language further away than French, say Croatian, with all the weird signs, and things would get even worse). Have a vague idea of the subject, perhaps, but I'd love to be the DM with players who tried to pull that off, the amount of misdirection you can achieve would be a lot of fun.

Heck, check the Lord of the Rings scene of entering Moria; and that was GANDALF, in a language he understood.

As to the Paladin... I disagree with most people's evaluation, I think it's below average Paladin powerlevelwise. The fog ability is very good, everything else is a bit weak; quite nice if you are planning a Pal 3/Sorc X split, perhaps.

[Droppeddead]

It's interesting that you chose German, of the same language group as English, as your example.

The same point still stands for any language that has the same alphabet. It's just PIE all the way down anyways. ;)

Never mind different alphabets (though you should, since D&D even mention different scripts for different languages),

Again, the claim has never been that you can all of the sudden read alphabets you don't already know. Please refrain from that strawman.

read a paragraph in French following pronounciation rules of English and I very much doubt a French speaker would understand (Get a language further away than French, say Croatian, with all the weird signs, and things would get even worse).

Moving the goalposts but sure, it might take a few times.

Have a vague idea of the subject, perhaps, but I'd love to be the DM with players who tried to pull that off, the amount of misdirection you can achieve would be a lot of fun.

That would be a fun thing to explore, yes.

Heck, check the Lord of the Rings scene of entering Moria; and that was GANDALF, in a language he understood.

Except that he obviously didn't, and he says so himself. ;)

As to the Paladin... I disagree with most people's evaluation, I think it's below average Paladin powerlevelwise. The fog ability is very good, everything else is a bit weak; quite nice if you are planning a Pal 3/Sorc X split, perhaps.

Or maybe a Paladin/Hexblade multiclass? ;)

[diplomancer]

The same point still stands for any language that has the same alphabet. It's just PIE all the way down anyways. ;)


Again, the claim has never been that you can all of the sudden read alphabets you don't already know. Please refrain from that strawman.


Moving the goalposts but sure, it might take a few times.


That would be a fun thing to explore, yes.


Except that he obviously didn't, and he says so himself. ;)


Or maybe a Paladin/Hexblade multiclass? ;)

Gandalf understands Elvish and can read the inscription (which is in Elvish). He still got it wrong at first, because of lack of punctuation.

The problem with "it might take a few times" is the considerable chance of misunderstanding. I'm not sure you realize how tricky language is, how even a pause in the wrong place changes the meaning of a phrase (and consider that punctuation is a relatively recent invention, not to mention the problem with scripts that omit vowel sounds).

The way Tongue of Sun and Moon is written, you have a better case if you say that the monk himself should read out loud whatever he's reading, and everyone, including himself, would undestand it. Nevertheless, since it mentions "to touch the ki of other minds", I would rule that you learn to understand what's being conveyed by the speaker. And if what the speaker is conveying is gibberish to him, it will be gibberish to you (GIGO).

[Droppeddead]

Gandalf understands Elvish and can read the inscription (which is in Elvish). He still got it wrong at first, because of lack of punctuation.

"They are wrought of ithildin that mirrors only starlight and moonlight, and sleeps until it is touched by one who speaks words now long forgotten in Middle-earth. It is long since I heard them, and I thought deeply before I could recall them to my mind.'"

This is just one of many occassions where Gandalf mention that his memory isn't always the best. Understandable, since he is quite old. This is of course completely irrelevant to the topic at hand but it still proves my point. You can read a text in a language you don't fully understand.

The problem with "it might take a few times" is the considerable chance of misunderstanding. I'm not sure you realize how tricky language is, how even a pause in the wrong place changes the meaning of a phrase (and consider that punctuation is a relatively recent invention, not to mention the problem with scripts that omit vowel sounds).

Not sure what that has to do with level 13 Monks' ability to "understand all spoken languages". Again, it's quite clear what RAW says.

The way Tongue of Sun and Moon is written, you have a better case if you say that the monk himself should read out loud whatever he's reading, and everyone, including himself, would undestand it. Nevertheless, since it mentions "to touch the ki of other minds", I would rule that you learn to understand what's being conveyed by the speaker. And if what the speaker is conveying is gibberish to him, it will be gibberish to you (GIGO).

Again, the case is quite clear. The rules say "spoken languages". It doesn't say anything about bad pronunciation, lack of grammar or weird accents or dialects. The Monks reading the words themself could certainly fit in the RAW.

Suggesting that a speaker have to understand a word for other people to understand them is just preposterous though. If we take this for example, you ask me "hey, you speak German, what does Krankenwagen mean?" and I reply "well, since you don't understand that word, neither can I" you see how weird it gets.

Again, RAW it is very simple and straight forward. That doesn't mean it makes sense.

[diplomancer]

"They are wrought of ithildin that mirrors only starlight and moonlight, and sleeps until it is touched by one who speaks words now long forgotten in Middle-earth. It is long since I heard them, and I thought deeply before I could recall them to my mind.'"

This is just one of many occassions where Gandalf mention that his memory isn't always the best. Understandable, since he is quite old. This is of course completely irrelevant to the topic at hand but it still proves my point. You can read a text in a language you don't fully understand.


Not sure what that has to do with level 13 Monks' ability to "understand all spoken languages". Again, it's quite clear what RAW says.


Again, the case is quite clear. The rules say "spoken languages". It doesn't say anything about bad pronunciation, lack of grammar or weird accents or dialects. The Monks reading the words themself could certainly fit in the RAW.

Suggesting that a speaker have to understand a word for other people to understand them is just preposterous though. If we take this for example, you ask me "hey, you speak German, what does Krankenwagen mean?" and I reply "well, since you don't understand that word, neither can I" you see how weird it gets.

Again, RAW it is very simple and straight forward. That doesn't mean it makes sense.

Is a bunch of randomly mispronounced sounds spoken by someone who has no idea what they mean "a spoken language"? You assume it is. If it isn't, as I believe, than the ability doesn't work. What if someone speaks gibberish, like in the improv game, does the monk "translate" it, or does he just realize "those are articulate sounds, but there's no language here".

Now, do the same thing you did with German, but using a whole sentence, with the phonetic alphabet as the sentence would be said, say, by a Japanese speaker who has no idea of German. Would the German speaker understand? Or would he ask the speaker to write the sentence down? Is there any chance the German speaker would hear a word and think it's another word, and thus completely misinterpret everything that's being said?

Coming back to Gandalf- he doesn't remember, immediately, the specific words used to make the Ithildin shine, that doesn't mean he doesn't speak Elvish fluently! He certainly shows no difficulty in reading the words written on the door, he only misinterprets them because there are no punctuation marks (and because he mistakenly, but naturally, assumes the password would be difficult and not just written on the door). It's a small, but significant, example of how tricky reading a language can be, even if you know it.

[Droppeddead]

Is a bunch of randomly mispronounced sounds spoken by someone who has no idea what they mean "a spoken language"? You assume it is. If it isn't, as I believe, than the ability doesn't work. What if someone speaks gibberish, like in the improv game, does the monk "translate" it, or does he just realize "those are articulate sounds, but there's no language here".

Could you please dispense with the pointless strawmen arguments and moving of goalposts? We aren't talking about "randomly mispronounced sounds", we are talking about reading actual words that you just don't know the meaning off.

Gibberish is not a "spoken language"

Now, do the same thing you did with German, but using a whole sentence, with the phonetic alphabet as the sentence would be said, say, by a Japanese speaker who has no idea of German. Would the German speaker understand? Or would he ask the speaker to write the sentence down? Is there any chance the German speaker would hear a word and think it's another word, and thus completely misinterpret everything that's being said?

Completely irrelevant to RAW.

Coming back to Gandalf- he doesn't remember, immediately, the specific words used to make the Ithildin shine, that doesn't mean he doesn't speak Elvish fluently! He certainly shows no difficulty in reading the words written on the door, he only misinterprets them because there are no punctuation marks (and because he mistakenly, but naturally, assumes the password would be difficult and not just written on the door). It's a small, but significant, example of how tricky reading a language can be, even if you know it.

Except for the whole, you know, not reading the words right part, you mean? Which, if we would go by your logic above would turn it into gibberish that no-one would be able to understand.

And again, it doesn't say anywhere in the rules that the speaker has to know the language they speak for a 13th level monk to understand it. Or if you think there is, please quote page number and paragraf.

[diplomancer]

Could you please dispense with the pointless strawmen arguments and moving of goalposts? We aren't talking about "randomly mispronounced sounds", we are talking about reading actual words that you just don't know the meaning off.

Gibberish is not a "spoken language"


Completely irrelevant to RAW.


Except for the whole, you know, not reading the words right part, you mean? Which, if we would go by your logic above would turn it into gibberish that no-one would be able to understand.

And again, it doesn't say anywhere in the rules that the speaker has to know the language they speak for a 13th level monk to understand it. Or if you think there is, please quote page number and paragraf.

One, I'm not "moving goalposts". If I read alanguage I have no idea of what it sounds like, even if it shares an alphabet that I know, I will mispronounce randomly the sounds. Because that's what it means to not have any idea about the language . Specially vowels, but also several consonantal combinations, diacritical signs, etc. So, what I would be speaking would not be a spoken language, but a mostly random combination of sounds. You are assuming it is a spoken language (or the ability does not work) you haven't made the case that it actually is.

Try to do the exercise I suggested; a whole sentence, as spoken by someone who has no idea what the sounds are like, using the phonetic alphabet. It would be incomprehensible to a native speaker, except for, perhaps, some vague meaning about the general subject. It would NOT solve any situation that might appear in an adventurer's life when knowing what's being said is relevant.

Gandalf reads the words right. He speaks Elvish after all, which is not the case you are suggesting here. Even then, he messes up the punctuation, because there's no punctuation in the door (Tolkien helpfully provides us with a picture of the door. No punctuation there; no commas, like Gandalf says it first, but also no quotes, which the correct reading requires).

My point with the Gandalf example is to point out the difficulties of going from written to spoken language even when you speak the language , specially with text with no punctuation, sometimes no vowels, etc (which is common in many language systems). If you DON'T speak the language, those difficulties are insurmountable.

A spoken language is not "sounds someone says outloud while they are reading a text in a language they don't know anything about". It is oral communication from one mind to another mind. If the first mind is not communicating anything with meaning, that's what the second mind will get.

[x3n0n]

I have lost track. Is this a fair summary of the current debate?

"Learning new languages after Tongue of the Sun and Moon is completely pointless, because spoken language is already taken care of, and any written text can be read aloud by an ally, to be comprehended by the monk."

Current counterpoint under debate: there are relevant texts that cannot be read aloud correctly, unless the reader already knows the language.

All true?

Another counterpoint: you can only write in a language that you know.

That said, the returns on learning a new language decrease significantly later in the game, especially given TotS&M. It's a good thing that's not the only thing they get at 17. :)

[Droppeddead]

I have lost track. Is this a fair summary of the current debate?

"Learning new languages after Tongue of the Sun and Moon is completely pointless, because spoken language is already taken care of, and any written text can be read aloud by an ally, to be comprehended by the monk."

That is what the rules say, yes.

Current counterpoint under debate: there are relevant texts that cannot be read aloud correctly, unless the reader already knows the language.

This is the opinion of a person, yes. That has no support in RAW

All true?

I think that some people are trying to argue that TotSaM doesn't work the way that the rules tells us how it works.

Another counterpoint: you can only write in a language that you know.

Yes. But that's not really a counterpoint since that is not what the ability is about.

That said, the returns on learning a new language decrease significantly later in the game, especially given TotS&M. It's a good thing that's not the only thing they get at 17. :)

Very true. They also get a slightly weaker version of something that grave clerics get at level 2. Nothing terrible but not fantastic for a monk.

One, I'm not "moving goalposts". If I read alanguage I have no idea of what it sounds like, even if it shares an alphabet that I know, I will mispronounce randomly the sounds.

Well you are. What you just mentioned though is a strawman.

Because that's what it means to not have any idea about the language . Specially vowels, but also several consonantal combinations, diacritical signs, etc. So, what I would be speaking would not be a spoken language, but a mostly random combination of sounds. You are assuming it is a spoken language (or the ability does not work) you haven't made the case that it actually is.

*Now* you are moving the goalposts. You not understanding the language of the word you read doesn't magically make it into *not* a language. And there's nothing random about anything since it is a specific word you are reading. And if someone who magically understands every spoken language (or uses the right app) hears it, they will understand it.

Try to do the exercise I suggested; a whole sentence, as spoken by someone who has no idea what the sounds are like, using the phonetic alphabet. It would be incomprehensible to a native speaker, except for, perhaps, some vague meaning about the general subject. It would NOT solve any situation that might appear in an adventurer's life when knowing what's being said is relevant.

Again, can you please quote the page in the book where the rules support this? Also, what if the speaker has a lisp? Or stutters? Or has an accent? Does that mean that anyone who listens to them magically is unable to understand them? Of course not!

Gandalf reads the words right. He speaks Elvish after all, which is not the case you are suggesting here. Even then, he messes up the punctuation, because there's no punctuation in the door (Tolkien helpfully provides us with a picture of the door. No punctuation there; no commas, like Gandalf says it first, but also no quotes, which the correct reading requires).

Except that he quite obviously and literally doesn't. "Speak friend" and "say friend" is not the same thing.

My point with the Gandalf example is to point out the difficulties of going from written to spoken language even when you speak the language , specially with text with no punctuation, sometimes no vowels, etc (which is common in many language systems). If you DON'T speak the language, those difficulties are insurmountable.

And again, this is totally irrelevant for Monk's 13th level ability.

A spoken language is not "sounds someone says outloud while they are reading a text in a language they don't know anything about". It is oral communication from one mind to another mind. If the first mind is not communicating anything with meaning, that's what the second mind will get.

And here we have another example of you moving the goalposts (and also not giving us any kind of rules supporting your claims, what so ever). As already pointed out, it is perfectly possible for someone to read a word in, say German without knowing what it means and German speaker would be able to undestand it. That is quite literally how a lot of people learn languages. "Hey Fritz, what does 'merkwurdig' mean?" "It's 'strange'." "Yes, but what does it mean." ( A little humor to lighten the mood.) What you are saying is that Fritz wouldn't be able to understand the word merkwurdig because the person asking him doesn't. Which is of course not how reality works.
Or another example, you meet a young child that doesn't know certain words, simply because they haven't learned those yet. You ask what happened to his friend and the child says "he was taken away in a car that had the word 'ambulance' on the front." Now, with your logic, a monk or even just any person fluent in the language taht the kid speaks wouldn't be able to understand the word "ambulance" if the child doesn't know that specific word. Which is not how anything works.

To sum it up, none of your claims have any support in reality or, which is more important in this case, the actual rules of the game. The rules only have two criteria "spoken", which discludes reading text, and "language" which rules out gibberish, farts and other similar noices. It doesn't say anything about the pronunciation, dialects, accents, speech impediments or anything else you have brought up. "Spoken languages", that's all. "All" spoken languages.

[x3n0n]

I have lost track. Is this a fair summary of the current debate?

"Learning new languages after Tongue of the Sun and Moon is completely pointless, because spoken language is already taken care of, and any written text can be read aloud by an ally, to be comprehended by the monk."

...

Another counterpoint: you can only write in a language that you know.

Yes. But that's not really a counterpoint since that is not what the ability is about.

The ability of learning a language (like at lv17) allows you to write in that language, unlike TotS&M, so it's not *completely* pointless, even if you grant allies the ability to pronounce arbitrary written texts.

(Note that the PHB actually has multiple completely different script systems; I see no reason to think that a random character who only know languages that use elvish script would know how to voice things written in draconic or dwarvish script. I can see a reasonable argument that they should be able to pronounce things written with elvish characters, but wouldn't argue with a DM who said otherwise.)

Very true. They also get a slightly weaker version of something that grave clerics get at level 2. Nothing terrible but not fantastic for a monk.

To be fair, they get the ability to spend 3 ki on the effect, which is significantly different from spending a Channel Divinity, especially when you've got at least 17 ki.

[Droppeddead]

The ability of learning a language (like at lv17) allows you to write in that language, unlike TotS&M, so it's not *completely* pointless, even if you grant allies the ability to pronounce arbitrary written texts.

There's usually nothing arbitrary about how texts are written. Most if not all written languages have grammar. And if the language doesn't have a written version you're out of luck anyways.

(Note that the PHB actually has multiple completely different script systems; I see no reason to think that a random character who only know languages that use elvish script would know how to voice things written in draconic or dwarvish script. I can see a reasonable argument that they should be able to pronounce things written with elvish characters, but wouldn't argue with a DM who said otherwise.)

Not sure why you are building this strawman, no-one has said anything about people being able to read text in alphabets you do not know. However, not knowing the language in which a text is written doesn't magically stop you from reading said text. And yet again, there actual rules says the ability works they way I've described it. Whether or not you think the rules make sense is a different topic.

To be fair, they get the ability to spend 3 ki on the effect, which is significantly different from spending a Channel Divinity, especially when you've got at least 17 ki.

Yeah, you can use it a bit more often than a cleric can use their ability. The actual effect is objectively worse though. And again, I'm not really commenting on this particular ability, I was commenting on the ribbon ability.

[diplomancer]

There's usually nothing arbitrary about how texts are written. Most if not all written languages have grammar. And if the language doesn't have a written version you're out of luck anyways.


Not sure why you are building this strawman, no-one has said anything about people being able to read text in alphabets you do not know. However, not knowing the language in which a text is written doesn't magically stop you from reading said text. And yet again, there actual rules says the ability works they way I've described it. Whether or not you think the rules make sense is a different topic.


Yeah, you can use it a bit more often than a cleric can use their ability. The actual effect is objectively worse though. And again, I'm not really commenting on this particular ability, I was commenting on the ribbon ability.

I am positively sure, that, on this very thread, I could pick up any post, and read a sentence from it as a Portuguese speaker (which I am), and you would not know what post and sentence I am referring if you heard it (as long as you don't speak Portuguese). Languages, and phonetics, simply don't work the way you seem to think they do. You want to give monks the ability to undestand randomly spoken sounds, be my guest, it's certainly not overpowered or broken, but that is NOT what Tongue of Sun and Moon does, definitely not by RAI or as the only possible RAW.

[x3n0n]

There's usually nothing arbitrary about how texts are written. Most if not all written languages have grammar. And if the language doesn't have a written version you're out of luck anyways.

My claim: it is useful to write in languages other than Common (especially as a scribe/scholar), and TotS&M does not allow my character to write in languages I don't know, so I get *some* benefit from learning a language even after getting TotS&M.

If I play a CS monk into tier 4, I will treat the ribbon as a ribbon: flavorful, with minimal mechanical value. (I will be happy about the knowledge Expertise.)

I will also hope that I have an ally with a powerful burst damage option of a type other then bludgeoning, like radiant (smite) or piercing (sneak attack) or a burst spell like Disintegrate. If not, then it will be much harder to take advantage of the vulnerability feature. I do like that it can tell a cool story of party teamwork, where you name a specific ally to help.

[Unoriginal]

Except that he quite obviously and literally doesn't. "Speak friend" and "say friend" is not the same thing.

It is in the language Tolkien invented for his elves. "Speak" and "say" are literally the same word in the Sindarin language (in the imperative form, at least).

"Pedo Mellon a Minno" can be translated equally validly into "speak friend and enter" and "say friend and enter".


Another example: the Latin word "acies" means at the same time "edge", "sharp", "point" "battle line", "battle", "engagement" (as in, military engagement) and "steel". Furthermore, Latin does not have articles the same way as English, and written Latin does not have punctuation or capitalization in a sentence, leaving open the possibility of "acies" being used as a name without indicator, or with a definitive article, indefinite article, or no article at all. And since "acies" is a fifth-declension noun, it can be a nominative (singular or plural), an accusative (plural) or a vocative (plural or singular).

Meanwhile, the Latin verb "timeo" means "I fear", "I am afraid of", "I apprehend", or "I am apprehensive of". And the interrogative particle can be present or not depending on style and context

In other words, the Latin sentence "timeo acies" can mean, with equal validity:


-"O Edges, I fear"

-"I am apprehensive of battles"

-"I, Steel, apprehend"

-"I am afraid of the points"

-"I fear the engagements"

-"Am I afraid of battle lines?"


And that's only a fraction of the possibilities.


Now, let's imagine that, as you suggest is RAW, someone who doesn't speak Latin reads "timeo acies" aloud in presence of a Monk with Tongue of the Sun and Moon. What does the Monk hear or understand?

[diplomancer]

It is in the language Tolkien invented for his elves. "Speak" and "say" are literally the same word in the Sindarin language (in the imperative form, at least).

"Pedo Mellon a Minno" can be translated equally validly into "speak friend and enter" and "say friend and enter".


Another example: the Latin word "acies" means at the same time "edge", "sharp", "point" "battle line", "battle", "engagement" (as in, military engagement) and "steel". Furthermore, Latin does not have articles the same way as English, and written Latin does not have punctuation or capitalization in a sentence, leaving open the possibility of "acies" being used as a name without indicator, or with a definitive article, indefinite article, or no article at all. And since "acies" is a fifth-declension noun, it can be a nominative (singular or plural), an accusative (plural) or a vocative (plural or singular).

Meanwhile, the Latin verb "timeo" means "I fear", "I am afraid of", "I apprehend", or "I am apprehensive of". And the interrogative particle can be present or not depending on style and context

In other words, the Latin sentence "timeo acies" can mean, with equal validity:


-"O Edges, I fear"

-"I am apprehensive of battles"

-"I, Steel, apprehend"

-"I am afraid of the points"

-"I fear the engagements"

-"Am I afraid of battle lines?"


And that's only a fraction of the possibilities.


Now, let's imagine that, as you suggest is RAW, someone who doesn't speak Latin reads "timeo acies" aloud in presence of a Monk with Tongue of the Sun and Moon. What does the Monk hear or understand?

Thank you! And let's not get started on tonal languages now...

[Droppeddead]

My claim: it is useful to write in languages other than Common (especially as a scribe/scholar), and TotS&M does not allow my character to write in languages I don't know, so I get *some* benefit from learning a language even after getting TotS&M.

Never said that it wasn't.

If I play a CS monk into tier 4, I will treat the ribbon as a ribbon: flavorful, with minimal mechanical value. (I will be happy about the knowledge Expertise.)

Never even mentioned anything about the expertise.

I will also hope that I have an ally with a powerful burst damage option of a type other then bludgeoning, like radiant (smite) or piercing (sneak attack) or a burst spell like Disintegrate. If not, then it will be much harder to take advantage of the vulnerability feature. I do like that it can tell a cool story of party teamwork, where you name a specific ally to help.

Again, not sure what that has to do with anything that is being discussed. Yes, being able to boost an ally's attack is good, it's just not as good as the grave cleric's level 2 ability.

I am positively sure, that, on this very thread, I could pick up any post, and read a sentence from it as a Portuguese speaker (which I am), and you would not know what post and sentence I am referring if you heard it (as long as you don't speak Portuguese). Languages, and phonetics, simply don't work the way you seem to think they do. You want to give monks the ability to undestand randomly spoken sounds, be my guest, it's certainly not overpowered or broken, but that is NOT what Tongue of Sun and Moon does, definitely not by RAI or as the only possible RAW.

Well, of course I wouldn't because I am not a level 13 Monk tha can also run on water and punch ghosts. Also, when you keep on using the same boring strawman it just gets old and boring. I've never said that *I* want to give monks "the ability to undestand randomly spoken sounds", you are simply lying at this point. A "spoken language" is not "randomly spoken sounds" any more than random letters is a written language. But if you tell me how to arrange a set number of letters I will still be able to write that word even if I don't know what it means and if you know what it means, you will be able to read it.

And again, do you have anything that disproves the RAW that I have quoted? Page number and paragraf please.

[QUOTE=Unoriginal;24759416]It is in the language Tolkien invented for his elves. "Speak" and "say" are literally the same word in the Sindarin language (in the imperative form, at least). [quote]

Now, let's imagine that, as you suggest is RAW, someone who doesn't speak Latin reads "timeo acies" aloud in presence of a Monk with Tongue of the Sun and Moon. What does the Monk hear or understand?

And "ring" and "ring" can mean completely different things in English yet most people are fully capable of making the distinction from the context. Are you seriously suggesting that Monks would be completely unable to deal with homonymes? Could you quote a page from the rules that explains this? Again, the RAW are abundantly clear on this.

[Unoriginal]

And "ring" and "ring" can mean completely different things in English yet most people are fully capable of making the distinction from the context.

The context of the words being said is "someone saying the words without understanding the meaning or the context of the sentence."

Are you seriously suggesting that Monks would be completely unable to deal with homonymes? Could you quote a page from the rules that explains this? Again, the RAW are abundantly clear on this.

If the RAW is as clear on the topic as you're saying, then you should have no issue answering the question:

What does a Monk with Tongue of the Sun and Moon hear or understand when someone who doesn't speak Latin reads the sentence "timeo acies" out loud?


Just to make clear, as to avoid people misconstructing other people's point, my claim is that the Monk understands spoken languages because, as the rules say, they're connecting with their interlocutors' minds via ki, and in consequence that it doesn't work if their interlocutors say something without knowing what it means.

[Amnestic]

Again, the RAW are abundantly clear on this.

I think this discussion is needlessly pedantic about a niche situation that will almost never occur in game.

But the core disagreement seems to be what it means to be a "spoken language". From the PHB (pg. 123):

Your race indicates the languages your character can speak by default, and your background might give you access to one or more additional languages of your choice. Note these languages on your character sheet

If you read letters off a page, it's not the same as speaking the language, because to be a 'spoken language', it'd have to be a language you speak, and therefore one you're fluent in anyway. If you're not fluent in it - even if you can read the letters, you can't speak it. That's RAW, right?

Or maybe not. Honestly it doesn't matter. When're you ever going to be running around with a 13+ monk and this situation actually comes up since Comprehend Languages is a 1st level ritual spell which deals with written language. And you've probably also got a half dozen scrolls of it from random loot while you're at it.

[Droppeddead]

I think this discussion is needlessly pedantic about a niche situation that will almost never occur in game.

I agree. It's weird that people can't accept the rules.

But the core disagreement seems to be what it means to be a "spoken language". From the PHB (pg. 123):

I think the main problem is that people can't seem to understand that sometimes the rules as written are a bit weird and open up for a bit of shennanigans every once in a while. Like the peasant railgun.

[QUOTE

]If you read letters off a page, it's not the same as speaking the language

, because to be a 'spoken language', it'd have to be a language you speak, and therefore one you're fluent in anyway. If you're not fluent in it - even if you can read the letters, you can't speak it. That's RAW, right?[/QUOTE]
Uhm, yes. Saying a word out loud is the literal definition of speaking a language. And no, you don't have to be fluent in a language to be able to speak it. That is both a strawman and moving the goalposts of what "spoken language" means. See my example with teh child who doesn't know what an ambulance is. Does not knowing a particular word in your own language mean that you can't "speak" it? No, of course it doesn't.

Or maybe not. Honestly it doesn't matter. When're you ever going to be running around with a 13+ monk and this situation actually comes up since Comprehend Languages is a 1st level ritual spell which deals with written language. And you've probably also got a half dozen scrolls of it from random loot while you're at it.

Exactly. When I just threw out a comment about monk abilities I didn't imagine that it was this important and personal to so many people.

The context of the words being said is "someone saying the words without understanding the meaning or the context of the sentence."

And, once again for the people in the back, even though the speaker doesn't understand the words they are saying doesn't mean that people listening will magically be unable to understand those same words.

If the RAW is as clear on the topic as you're saying, then you should have no issue answering the question:

You're being intellectually dishonest. I have quoted the sources for my claims, you have not. If you don't answer my questions, why should I answer yours?

What does a Monk with Tongue of the Sun and Moon hear or understand when someone who doesn't speak Latin reads the sentence "timeo acies" out loud?

The same that anyone who understands Latin would hear, of course.

Just to make clear, as to avoid people misconstructing other people's point, my claim is that the Monk understands spoken languages because, as the rules say, they're connecting with their interlocutors' minds via ki, and in consequence that it doesn't work if their interlocutors say something without knowing what it means.

Yes, and the only condition that needs required for the monk to understand the person is that it needs to be a "spoken language". Doesn't say anything about homonyms not working, doesn't say anything about people not being allowed to read or accents or slang anything else you and others claim. And again, refer back to all the numerous examples and demonstrations of how language and communications actually work. If you read a word in a language I know and you don't I will be able to understand you. It's not any different from being in school and asking your teacher "What does Krankenwagen mean?"

[KorvinStarmast]

So Mercer still hasn't a clue about balance (paladin). Stop the presses!

Tolkien digression into Latin

Did Boromir wind¹ his horn or wind his² horn?

Wind¹ rhymes with grinned
Wind² rhymed with fined.

[diplomancer]

RAI is abundantly clear. If designers wanted the ability to work the way you think it does, why add the "spoken" clause? To create a needlessly complicated loophole? Just say "you can understand all language", period.

What about RAW? RAW, as has been pointed out, depends on what a spoken language is. Looking at a text you don't understand and reading it out aloud while horribly mispronouncing every single word until it becomes a complete mess does not constitute "spoken language". That you don't know how languages and phonetics work, specially how somewhat arbitrary phonetic rules are between different language systems, is not my problem.

For instance if you said the Portuguese word "acho" ("I think", or "I find", sounds something like "AH-shu") , using the words of English pronounciation, which might make it sound something like a sneeze, I'd have a hard time understanding that you mean "acho", even being a native portuguese speaker. Now think of that problem for a whole sentence, paragraph, or text. There might be plenty of situations where I simply won't know what you mean, and many others where I might think I understand but it's actually something entirely different (because you mispronounced the word so badly that I understood a different word).

Now think of tonal languages. How does someone who does not speak the language, but knows the script used, COULD say the text correctly when they read it? And if the reader said it wrong, saying A where the text says B, how is "touching other people's mind with his ki" going to help the monk understand it? What about language systems that don't write down vowels (because their speakers simply KNOW, from context, which vowels are supposed to be put where when speaking the word)?


So, RAI, it doesn't work. RAW, it MIGHT work, if DM doesn't know how languages and phonetics work.

[Droppeddead]

RAI is abundantly clear. If designers wanted the ability to work the way you think it does, why add the "spoken" clause? To create a needlessly complicated loophole? Just say "you can understand all language", period.

Irrelevant. We are not discussing RAI. RAW is clear, you have yet to present anything that supports your claim.

What about RAW? RAW, as has been pointed out, depends on what a spoken language is. Looking at a text you don't understand and reading it out aloud while horribly mispronouncing every single word until it becomes a complete mess does not constitute "spoken language". That you don't know how languages and phonetics work, specially how somewhat arbitrary phonetic rules are between different language systems, is not my problem.

Again, you are moving the goalposts as to what makes up a language and you are making a strawman argument about random sounds being a language. If you say a word in a language, even if you don't understand it or doesn't pronunce it perfectly, you are speaking that word. It's really *that* simple.

For instance if you said the Portuguese word "acho" ("I think", or "I find", sounds something like "AH-shu") , using the words of English pronounciation, which might make it sound something like a sneeze, I'd have a hard time understanding that you mean "acho", even being a native portuguese speaker. Now think of that problem for a whole sentence, paragraph, or text. There might be plenty of situations where I simply won't know what you mean, and many others where I might think I understand but it's actually something entirely different (because you mispronounced the word so badly that I understood a different word).

Again, irrelevant. Otherwise you would have to take into account dialects, accents, words changing meaning over time, slang, et cetera. The claim that Monks wouldn't be able to understand homonyms is just absurd and has no support in the rules.

Now think of tonal languages. How does someone who does not speak the language, but knows the script used, COULD say the text correctly when they read it? And if the reader said it wrong, saying A where the text says B, how is "touching other people's mind with his ki" going to help the monk understand it? What about language systems that don't write down vowels (because their speakers simply KNOW, from context, which vowels are supposed to be put where when speaking the word)?

Again, irrelevant.

So, RAI, it doesn't work. RAW, it MIGHT work, if DM doesn't know how languages and phonetics work.

Except for the fact that "RAI" is just your opinion and RAW is abundantly clear and doesn't support your claims. In D&D 5E languages are very simplified and there are no rules for speech impediments, slang, dialects or accents to take into account.

Now please quote a rule that supports your claim or at least admit that there isn't such a rule.