Baldur's Gate 3's Fast Hands (Thief) Is Awesome

[bendking]

What do you guys think about this change to Thief? I always found him to be a lackluster sub-class for Rogue, with Arcane Trickster being the clear winner, but this change is incredible: Fast Hands simply gives you an additional Bonus Action per turn.
I do worry that it might be a bit too strong, but considering the number of combat options and damage Arcane Trickster gives the Rogue I think this might be balanced.

[Eldariel]

I personally found Thief one of the best non-caster classes in the game simply on the back of Fast Hands and Use Magic Device. Fast Hands opens up so much stuff you can't normally do. But I can see this being a nice increase in power; probably more something needed than something broken. In general, I think non-casters should get access to better action economy and just more actions to remain comparatively interesting with casters, and this fits that mold just fine.

[bendking]

I personally found Thief one of the best non-caster classes in the game simply on the back of Fast Hands and Use Magic Device. Fast Hands opens up so much stuff you can't normally do. But I can see this being a nice increase in power; probably more something needed than something broken. In general, I think non-casters should get access to better action economy and just more actions to remain comparatively interesting with casters, and this fits that mold just fine.

Yes, the feature becomes extremely potent in conjunction with UMD. But statistically, most campaigns don't make it to level 13, so Thief remains the worst Rogue for most players.
EDIT: My bad, it seems you can't use a magic device as a part of the Use an Object action. Still, UMD is really strong, but Fast Hands doesn't come close to the power level of 1/3 casting and Booming Blade on a Rogue.

[Eldariel]

Yes, the feature becomes extremely potent in conjunction with UMD. But statistically, most campaigns don't make it to level 13, so Thief remains the worst Rogue for most players.
EDIT: My bad, it seems you can't use a magic device as a part of the Use an Object action. Still, UMD is really strong, but Fast Hands doesn't come close to the power level of 1/3 casting and Booming Blade on a Rogue.

Of course not; nothing competes with casting in this game. But Thief with e.g. Healer is still pretty cool and if you get creative with Fast Hands, you can do a very good "badass mundane" impression. It's one of the few ways mundanes have to do cool stuff casters don't have access to. Compared to e.g. Assassin or Mastermind or Swashbuckler, I'd prefer the Thief. Of course, casting is bull**** so ultimately Arcane Trickster reigns supreme but among the mundanes, Thief is pretty decent.

[Kane0]

Sounds like my first character is definitely going to be a rogue/ranger MC, it just gets better and better

[bendking]

Of course not; nothing competes with casting in this game. But Thief with e.g. Healer is still pretty cool and if you get creative with Fast Hands, you can do a very good "badass mundane" impression. It's one of the few ways mundanes have to do cool stuff casters don't have access to. Compared to e.g. Assassin or Mastermind or Swashbuckler, I'd prefer the Thief. Of course, casting is bull**** so ultimately Arcane Trickster reigns supreme but among the mundanes, Thief is pretty decent.

Fair enough, I guess I just feel like the other sub-classes should be buffed to AT's level, not the other way around, since Rogue is far from the strongest class, especially late-game.

[Eldariel]

Fair enough, I guess I just feel like the other sub-classes should be buffed to AT's level, not the other way around, since Rogue is far from the strongest class, especially late-game.

Oh, I completely agree, I wish it were that way: I wish all classes kept getting cool stuff throughout the levels so that a high level anything would be approximately similar in terms of having powerful stuff nobody else can really do, and enough different good stuff to keep all the classes interesting. My analysis was merely of how it is right now.

[ff7hero]

Fair enough, I guess I just feel like the other sub-classes should be buffed to AT's level, not the other way around, since Rogue is far from the strongest class, especially late-game.

If you want late game power, and your DM isn't a total magic item miser, Thief gets an insane power bump at level 13. Arcane Tricksters wish they could cast Simulacrum (or Wish haha).

[elyktsorb]

If Fast Hands enables you to do the same item interaction stuff as a bonus action on top of giving you a bonus one, that does sound neat. That would enable you to do stuff like poison a weapon, attack, and then back away from an enemy without repercussion. Or you could make your regular attack and your bonus action off hand attack and still get away with disengage.

[bendking]

If Fast Hands enables you to do the same item interaction stuff as a bonus action on top of giving you a bonus one, that does sound neat. That would enable you to do stuff like poison a weapon, attack, and then back away from an enemy without repercussion. Or you could make your regular attack and your bonus action off hand attack and still get away with disengage.

I think it does not grant the Use an Object as bonus action, but it's still a great buff which makes sense for the video-game format.

[elyktsorb]

I think it does not grant the Use an Object as bonus action, but it's still a great buff which makes sense for the video-game format.

I mean that would still enable most of the good stuff like being able to attack with an offhand weapon and disengage.

[Dork_Forge]

I think it does not grant the Use an Object as bonus action, but it's still a great buff which makes sense for the video-game format.

So does it replace the 5e Fast Hands with just another bonus action?

[ProsecutorGodot]

So does it replace the 5e Fast Hands with just another bonus action?

Yes, and most object interactions are bonus actions by default.

Another thing to note, off hand attacks are not reliant on having used your action to attack and you can do it twice as a thief.

The only bummer is that sneak attack is a special action so neither your off hand or opportunity attack proc it.

[Dork_Forge]

Yes, and most object interactions are bonus actions by default.

Another thing to note, off hand attacks are not reliant on having used your action to attack and you can do it twice as a thief.

The only bummer is that sneak attack is a special action so neither your off hand or opportunity attack proc it.

Fast Hands isn't just just Use an Object though, so they made it more powerful but stripped away the... Thiefyness of it? Unless you can do things like pick locks as a bonus action.

The not needing to make a main attack definitely makes it more powerful (though Sneak Attack seems to be a balance). So you could off hand attack twice and main action dodge?

[Lunali]

Yes, and most object interactions are bonus actions by default.

Another thing to note, off hand attacks are not reliant on having used your action to attack and you can do it twice as a thief.

The only bummer is that sneak attack is a special action so neither your off hand or opportunity attack proc it.

So BG3 gives everyone fast hands and gives thief an extra bonus action, then it tosses out the reason why rogues would want more than one bonus action.

[ff7hero]

So BG3 gives everyone fast hands and gives thief an extra bonus action, then it tosses out the reason why rogues would want more than one bonus action.

On paper, double or triple Dashing while kiting still seems nice.

[elyktsorb]

So BG3 gives everyone fast hands and gives thief an extra bonus action, then it tosses out the reason why rogues would want more than one bonus action.

I mean now you can apply a poison, attack, and disengage in 1 turn instead of having to apply the poison beforehand. Though is also completely gets rid of being able to get your sneak attack in with your offhand so getting the rogue a 2nd attack isn't a bad idea.

[Satori01]

From what I have read, the Shove Attack option in BG3 is a Bonus Action instead of an Attack replacement. So a BG3 can effectively solo Sneak Attack by getting two Shove Attempts and One Attack per round ?

Place Expertise in Athletics.....and you can Jump/Shove your way through the game.

[ProsecutorGodot]

So you could off hand attack twice and main action dodge?

No dodge action actually, one of my few major complaints

From what I have read, the Shove Attack option in BG3 is a Bonus Action instead of an Attack replacement. So a BG3 can effectively solo Sneak Attack by getting two Shove Attempts and One Attack per round ?

Place Expertise in Athletics.....and you can Jump/Shove your way through the game.

light weapons gain advantage when attacking from behind, you're able to solo sneak attack so long as you attack then from behind and don't have disadvantage.

From ranged attacks, you can gain sneak attack from high ground, again as long as you don't have disadvantage.

[bendking]

light weapons gain advantage when attacking from behind, you're able to solo sneak attack so long as you attack then from behind and don't have disadvantage.

I gotta say, this sounds a bit too powerful. If it were mostly Rogues that use Light Weapons I could get behind that, but this seems a pretty big incentive for almost all classes to use light weapons over regular weapons as long as they're using 1-handed weapons.

[verbatim]

So BG3 gives everyone fast hands and gives thief an extra bonus action, then it tosses out the reason why rogues would want more than one bonus action.

With TWF you can sneak attack, offhand attack, offhand attack. You can't dash twice for some reason but you can do pretty much any other bonus action twice.

I think that the fact that expertise isn't in the game (yet?) and that you can only sneak attack with your main hand attack makes rogue overall worse relative to 5e, but if those two things change when the game leaves early access rogue will probably have better DPS in tier 1 play compared to regular 5e.

As an aside this makes the Dual Wielder feat actually worthwhile IMO. A lvl 4 rogue can sneak attack with a rapier and then do two offhand strikes with a rapier with the dual wielder feat.