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2020-10-19, 01:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Polearm Master in hardcover adventures - should the DM add magical polearms?
Was going to say exactly the same thing. There's nothing at all contrived about giving a player exactly the weapon they want when they had to beat its' current wielder to get it. Even better if they hear about Mordoth and his Black Glaive ahead of time, so that when they finally beat Mordoth and loot his +2 Glaive, it feels earned. Easy to buff up an NPC in a published adventure with a weapon or item intended to fall into the player's hands, and if there's some foreshadowing built into the module that lets them know the encounter with the NPC is coming, throw in some discussion of their gear, too. That's how I've played it, whenever I've done a pre-published adventure that wasn't giving out loot that was well-suited to the players.
You want a magic blowgun? Sure, I'll fight you for it...
Another possibility is that, even with the punishing Crafting rules for downtime, a basic +1 Polearm is only an Uncommon item, and one can be enchanted by a 3rd level caster for 500gp over 20 days, by the book. Many published adventures have a time-sensitive element to them, so this is not a viable solution every time, but really 500 gold and a few weeks of an NPC's time is not too much to manage. If it feels too "magic-shop"ey to your group, play it out as an encounter, or a reward from a grateful NPC...work the act of convincing this spellcaster/weaponsmith to make you a magic polearm into the story somehow.
Getting cool gear is fun, and anything that makes the game more fun is a good thing, as I see it.
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2020-10-19, 01:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Polearm Master in hardcover adventures - should the DM add magical polearms?
Honestly, if you tried D&D style rules lawyering in a US court, you get laughed at. At best. Likely you'd get Rule 11 sanctions for frivolous arguments. Courts don't turn on exact weasel wording much at all--there are hosts of canons of construction that say otherwise and look at intent, purpose, common understanding, equity, etc.
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2020-10-19, 02:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Polearm Master in hardcover adventures - should the DM add magical polearms?
I think the building tension of the never-ending longswords could contribute to fun, yes, especially if you have the Barbarian roll the treasure die on the spot when they open up the treasure chest or whatever. Sooner or later he's going to find a magical axe, but sure, I can imagine rolling 5 longswords in a row to be as enjoyable as being the one guy who only seems to roll natural 1s on critical fights (until that one time he rolls two 20s).
But, I probably play a different style of RPG than you do, so what's fun for me and my players might not be the kind of fun you're aiming for. (And what's fun for you might be something I would use something other than 5E to run. E.g. you can play 5E as a game of corporate espionage and accumulating custom gear to make you more deadly, but I would just do that in Shadowrun. You can run 5E as a game of emotional drama and relationship exploration, but I would run that in DramaSystem. You can run 5E as the exploration of powerful magic systems and mythical archetypes, but I would run that game in AD&D. 5E is the game you play when you want to run a crunchy, somewhat open-ended power fantasy adventure game in which the Promise of D&D is extended to the players:
Let it be resolved that: The promise of D&D is that all the important problems in life can be solved with violence.
That’s sort of a big bold statement, so let me carry on with immediately backtracking and clarifying.
Look, if your own personal D&D game involves 90% of the time spent talking to people, or peacefully marching through the wilderness, or otherwise not sticking sharp pieces of metal into squishy bags of meat, that’s just fine. I’m not trying to tell you you’re playing D&D all wrong or missing the point or anything like that.
I might suggest that D&D, as a system, doesn’t offer as much support as several other systems for problem-solving methods beyond the immediate application of stabbing. But you probably already knew that, so let’s move on.
And if you solved a couple of your big important D&D problems without resorting to violence, out of dozens, that’s fine too. I don’t believe D&D promises that you must solve all your important problems with violence — merely that you could, if you felt like it, which you probably will.
So when you see me commenting on how I'd run 5E, it's with this kind of gameplay in mind, which may or may not be the kind of game you are running in 5E. You'll see me talk about running elections, for example, but also about how cheating in elections can lead to assassination attempts. Violence is always lurking in the background somewhere as a potential solution to problems, for both PCs and NPCs.
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2020-10-19, 02:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2015
Re: Polearm Master in hardcover adventures - should the DM add magical polearms?
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2020-10-19, 02:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Polearm Master in hardcover adventures - should the DM add magical polearms?
Yeah. Crafting is designed to force you to adventure, not play downtime engineer. And the formulae are one step more rare than the item--finding an Uncommon formula is equivalent to finding a Rare item. And then you need a CR 3-4 "boss" (or location guarded by something like that) for the exotic ingredient the formula requires.
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2020-10-19, 02:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Polearm Master in hardcover adventures - should the DM add magical polearms?
Rest assured, my games have plenty of problem solving violence in them! Currently, my players are hunting down a secretive devil cult in an arcane college town to kill the devil running it. On the behest of another devil. Not much combat during the search (and boy have they surprised me with how they went about the search), but they're about to arrest the secret cult leader, and things are going to pop off.
I have enjoyed running/playing other systems too. Big points to Stars Without Number for managing to thread the needle between D20 and 2d6 systems by using both for different aspects.
I think it comes down to my desire to curate the game somewhat for my players and to match their preferences. I'm not going to run a "save the world" plot for a group of money hungry murder hobos, and I won't set up a "world is your oyster" sandbox for players who want to feel heroic while following a plot.
I could just write the adventure ahead of time, plug it into a computer, and have it run the game exactly as RAW as possible, because a computer will remember the rules better than I ever can, and it can look up stat blocks in half a second while I thumb through books. But we're playing a table top for things a video game can never provide, a DM's ability to change and improvise on the fly. I don't want every loot pile to contain exactly what the players need, but after the second magic longsword that no one wants shows up, I'll step in as a DM and change it to a great axe or whatever the players would appreciate.
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2020-10-19, 02:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2020
Re: Polearm Master in hardcover adventures - should the DM add magical polearms?
I think players shouldn't expect a perfectly custom made magic item of any kind, ever, unless they happen to be the one making it. This goes for rods of the pact keeper, staves of the magi, whatever.
There are plenty of ways around the need-magic-to-damage-certain-monsters problem.
Any player that specializes too much in one thing is going to have to spend some time on the sidelines if they can't adapt. That goes for all-melee-no-ranged builds, polearm only builds, stealth-only builds, etcetera.
Besides, what happens if only one magic polearm is found and three players want it? Magic items are like a box of chocolates.Last edited by cutlery; 2020-10-19 at 02:49 PM.
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2020-10-19, 02:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Polearm Master in hardcover adventures - should the DM add magical polearms?
Last edited by MaxWilson; 2020-10-19 at 02:51 PM.
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2020-10-19, 02:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Polearm Master in hardcover adventures - should the DM add magical polearms?
The existence of a formula is entirely in the hands of the DM. As is the availability of the exotic ingredient. And that's one exotic ingredient (ie one quest) per item, at least by default.
Like all questions of magic items, 5e leaves it entirely up to the DM. They can use any setting they like for that parameter. You don't get magic items unless the DM gives them to you explicitly. And no rules-based cause to whine unless the DM does so in a biased manner (ie gives his favorites all the toys). The players have exactly zero levers here, it's all in the DM's hand.
Now, IMO, the DM should be relatively generous within the parameters of the world. Constantly giving things no one can use is obnoxious. But if you're adventuring in dwarf territory, don't expect to find lots of powerful bows. And vice versa for elves and battleaxes. Unless the world takes a different view on such things, of course.Dawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
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2020-10-19, 02:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Polearm Master in hardcover adventures - should the DM add magical polearms?
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2020-10-19, 03:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
Re: Polearm Master in hardcover adventures - should the DM add magical polearms?
AFB but IIRC there's actually no default here--Xanathar's doesn't say a word about ingredient quantity and neither does the DMG.
Also, it's not entirely in the hands of the DM--players can pursue information through whatever means they choose, including the Sage background by the way. Players aren't required to just sit there passively waiting for a juicy secret to land in their lap.
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2020-10-19, 05:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Polearm Master in hardcover adventures - should the DM add magical polearms?
Part of that is there are few magical polearms in the DMG. Swords, axes, and hammers are sexy fantasy staples, especially swords. It's Swords n Sorcery, not Halberds n Hocus Pocus, alas. Despite the fact that polearms were the real weapons of war, while swords, axes, hammers and the like were typically special purpose weapons, sidearms, or status symbols, polearms get short shrift in fantasy fiction. As a result writers, including D&D adventure writers, tend to just kind of forget about them. It's kind of refreshing that PAM is so good in 5e--it lets D&D hew closer to history for a little while. Pun intended. But I digress.
The writers of published adventures usually aren't thinking of every conceivable party and player build. You can easily replace any non-plot relevant instance of 'magic weapon' with a weapon appropriate to the characters in your party. Some published adventures cite opportunities to add loot from random tables - those are good moment to throw in tailored loot.
There's a concept in ttrpg that I hold dear to my heart: Be a fan of the characters.
Let players earn stuff that helps make their characters cooler, tell their story, and live out their fantasy. Don't just shower the party with ideal magical items willy-nilly, of course. Magical items are more fun when acquiring and using them is memorable. And sometimes it's interesting to get something powerful that you weren't expecting that changes the way you think about your character and your strategies. But, overall I'd encourage DMs to offer opportunities for players to earn loot that suits them, if it remotely makes sense.Last edited by Mercureality; 2020-10-19 at 05:52 PM.
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2020-10-19, 06:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Polearm Master in hardcover adventures - should the DM add magical polearms?
I'm actually fine with the DMG having few unique magical polearms. My main concern is that the total absence of magical polearms invalidates whole builds against a possibly large number of foes with nonmagical weapon resistance / immunities.
For example, in Tomb of Annihilation,And in Descent into Avernus,Spoilerthe last boss is flat out immune to nonmagical weapon.Spoilermany devils are resistant to nonmagical weapon damage.
The lack of magical polearms is especially bad to newcomers, who might want to create a cool polearm build, but not realize the adventure is going to screw them over by not providing them any magical weapon compatible with their build.
To some extend, the necessity of a magical weapon is recognized by the D&D Adventurer League. In most season of AL, there exists a reliable way to get a +1 weapon, +1 rod of the pact keeper, or a +1 wand of the war mage, even if the adventure ran doesn't feature such items.Last edited by Merudo; 2020-10-19 at 06:11 PM.
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2020-10-19, 06:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Polearm Master in hardcover adventures - should the DM add magical polearms?
It says that making an item requires an ingredient, which requires a quest. Sure, a DM could allow you to harvest enough to create nearly unlimited items...but why?
And the very existence of that formula is entirely up to the DM. And there's nothing a player can do to change that. Magic items (and formulae count as such) only exist if and where the DM says they do. So yes, it is entirely in the hands of the DM. If there's no information to pursue (which is the case in 99.999999% of published adventures), there's nothing a player can do to change that without asking the DM to include it.Dawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
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2020-10-19, 06:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-10-19, 07:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2018
Re: Polearm Master in hardcover adventures - should the DM add magical polearms?
IME, it's not the newcomers that get their heart set on "a cool polearm build"; it's the powergamers that have to have PAM for maximum DPS. Newcomers will usually just pick up and go with whatever magic weapon they find so long as they can make use of it with their main attack stat (so pretty much any magical melee weapon if that stat is Strength).
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2020-10-19, 07:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Polearm Master in hardcover adventures - should the DM add magical polearms?
Dawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
Rogue Equivalent Damage calculator, now prettier and more configurable!
5e Monster Data Sheet--vital statistics for all 693 MM, Volo's, and now MToF monsters: Updated!
NIH system 5e fork, very much WIP. Base github repo.
NIH System PDF Up to date main-branch build version.
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2020-10-19, 07:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Polearm Master in hardcover adventures - should the DM add magical polearms?
For me, it was both. I came back to 5e after a long absence from D&D in love the idea of a full plate wearin' bad-ass toting a pollaxe to battle, like real knights on foot often did. I was excited to learn that not only would I not be hamstringing my character, I'd be playing optimally!
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2020-10-19, 09:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Polearm Master in hardcover adventures - should the DM add magical polearms?
That's presuming that particular character is the one to wield it, but it's not a bad assumption depending on the campaign. Since the artifact is the McGuffin and it being an artifact it will be powerful/useful enough to compensate. Also, presumably it's the end of the campaign or particular story arc to be disappeared, returned to owner, heroic sacrificed, etc. The player isn't using it for long.
For something Legendary that's different. Give the paladin a Holy Avenger Glaive when you're ready to give him a Holy Avenger. It fits thematically. He was destined for that weapon. He earned it. However, it's not necessary in the general to give a pole arm version of a weapon specifically mentioned in the DMG. You don't need a Glaive Frostbrand or Halberd Sunblade. What's important is that the Pole Arm Master character gets a magical pole arm appropriate to the level and campaign even if the DM has to make it up on what it can do. With that, the artifact McGuffin could also be something the DM made up so it can be an Artifact Glaive or Halberd of what ever artifact level power the DM wants.
I prefer DMs who respect their players and don't assume skullduggery for every build choice they make. If you hate the feat so much ban it. Problem solved. When it's available and the player takes it you don't passive aggressively punish him for it by never giving him a magical version of his weapon of choice.
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2020-10-19, 10:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Polearm Master in hardcover adventures - should the DM add magical polearms?
Last edited by MaxWilson; 2020-10-19 at 10:11 PM.
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2020-10-20, 03:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Polearm Master in hardcover adventures - should the DM add magical polearms?
I am the same. Poleaxes are by far my favorite weapon and i used to run them on all my martial characters in 2e. In 5e, we’ve homebrewed a number of weapons. So for instance a Pollaxe is 2d6 but 5’ range.
Over the years, we’ve flirted with complete realism rebalances, but in general it’s just too much annoyance and hassle for new players at the table who have to relearn everything (like for instance that bows are strength based and swords are more dex based).
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2020-10-20, 06:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Polearm Master in hardcover adventures - should the DM add magical polearms?
Yeah, in a no feat campaign, the incidents of polearm characters was comparatively low. Greatsword and Greataxe characters were still somewhat common, but nowhere near as common as in a feat campaign.
Because PAM and GWM are so OP, they significantly skew the results when I was playing in AL. The frequency of polearm users, and now spear and shield users, is almost exclusively because of mechanical advantage.
That's fine, but it needs to be recognized.Last edited by Tanarii; 2020-10-20 at 06:56 AM.
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2020-10-20, 06:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Polearm Master in hardcover adventures - should the DM add magical polearms?
There is another side of this whole thing as well. While I run published adventures when I'm being lazy, I prefer to run a campaign that is focused on player motivations. So, if the player wants to get or do something in particular that provides me the seed I need to create an adventure that I know the party will be invested in.
I mean, I'm in a Descent into Avernus campaign right now where my character has already informed the party that if he finds a way out of Hell, he's taking it whether the objective that brought them here is completed or not. Hell sucks, he doesn't like it there. He doesn't have any personal reason to be the grand champion.I am the flush of excitement. The blush on the cheek. I am the Rouge!
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2020-10-20, 07:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2019
Re: Polearm Master in hardcover adventures - should the DM add magical polearms?
I remember back in 1st edition, we were playing Pool of Radiance, and we found twelve magical daggers before we found any other magical weapon. It was silly as only one PC could use them (my thief), as the other PCs were three Cavaliers, two Paladin-Cavaliers, a Monk, and some spellcasters, none of whom would use daggers.
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2020-10-20, 08:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-10-20, 08:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-10-20, 08:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Polearm Master in hardcover adventures - should the DM add magical polearms?
I tell players not to expect any particular magic items. They shouldn't expect to have all their attunement slots filled, either. They don't get to plan around a magic-mart. If that means the build the internet told them is perfect might not work, too bad.
PAM is strong. Players picking it might not get the perfect pole arm of their dreams quickly, or ever. They might die, too. Using a battleaxe or scimitar is probably preferable to dying.
It isn't like 80% of the monsters in the MM have resistance to non-magical weapons, and it isn't like some magical weapon fairy is going to distribute magical weapons of the preferred type throughout hell or the underdark with the party in mind.
Every paladin has magic weapon on their spell list, every blade warlock has access to improved pact weapon
And, of course, anyone can have a weapon silvered for 100gp.
Of course that's the case.
It's not quite as bad as spiked chain builds in 3e, but it's close.
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2020-10-20, 09:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Polearm Master in hardcover adventures - should the DM add magical polearms?
Last edited by Xervous; 2020-10-20 at 09:34 AM.
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2020-10-20, 09:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Polearm Master in hardcover adventures - should the DM add magical polearms?
It is weird to make a weapon rare so that the fighter can not use their chosen combat style rather than trying to balance any perceived imbalances elsewhere. A gm saying not to expect any particular magic item is different than saying they do not like a feat and give less polearms to weaken a chosen feat. The gm should be clear that they are targeting a character type they do not want around.
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2020-10-20, 10:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Polearm Master in hardcover adventures - should the DM add magical polearms?
The chain was, for a time, a particularly ultramunchkin exotic weapon that, paired with enlarge could get you 15' of reach and all the AOOs in the universe, in part because the chain also let you attack/threaten adjacent foes. Most other reach weapons (including pole arms) did not threaten adjacent squares.
This is probably the prime reason polearms weren't super common in 3.x; you'd need to drop them or hold them in one hand while using a dagger or shortsword or something if an enemy closed - or play the 5' step back and attack trick over and over. Spiked chains let you skip all of that and just swing at whatever. Basically, every reach weapon in 5e is as good as a spiked chain, but the action economy of reactions makes them less over the top amazing (PAM aside).