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2020-10-20, 11:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Polearm Master in hardcover adventures - should the DM add magical polearms?
Again, seems like distortion when AoOs are limited by dex which has been decreased by enlarge, armor spikes were also core, and I’ll shelve the statistical details to get back to the topic.
If a player announces their intent to focus on a single weapon type it’s the GMs burden to clarify up front whether or not the player can expect to find relevant magic weaponry for that concept. You state the intrigue focused noble won’t fit in the exploration campaign, paladin doesn’t fit for a plot that assumes the players work for Asmodeus, warn a potential artificer that this is a low magic gladiator plot... The player deserves to generally know what game they’re playing and if their character assumptions are misplaced from the get go.If all rules are suggestions what happens when I pass the save?
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2020-10-20, 11:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Polearm Master in hardcover adventures - should the DM add magical polearms?
Enlarge didn't reduce dex, but there is a size penalty to AC. Also, whirlwind attack worked swimmingly.
That's all fair, and it is as much on the player to make that plain as it is on the DM; in pretty much the same way they'd need to do that for a character that planned to rely on hand crossbows.
They shouldn't just assume that specific items will show up for them without asking; and when they do ask a "you may or may not find one" answer is perfectly valid.
They aren't owed a +1 glaive simply because they chose a particular feat.
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2020-10-20, 11:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Polearm Master in hardcover adventures - should the DM add magical polearms?
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2020-10-20, 11:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Polearm Master in hardcover adventures - should the DM add magical polearms?
I’m not calling distortion without reason but again this is of tangential relevance. The ability score kludge of a tripping 3.5e fighter and its mountain of feats doesn’t translate perfectly to 5e where you get to keep your damage baseline and tack on an extra attack just for one feat and a specific weapon.
With so few choices to be made in 5e and the assumption of a stable baseline, feats like PAM and GWM lead to misaligned expectations. A GM may gravitate towards 5e for the promise of its normalized classes, but the player who sees an option to make his fighter more fightery (more damage) may think he’s just doing what the game expects by specializing in the only pillar available to his character. I’m going to discount bad intentions since problem players are another discussion entirely.
The one interesting thing I see here is the question of how far a GM should go with explaining game standards and expectations to players. Is it the burden of the player to inquire about the potential existence of magic forks on sticks? Is it good form for the GM to lay out magic item expectations during session 0, and how extensively? I really don’t see a clear cut answer as so many contributing factors will vary group to group.If all rules are suggestions what happens when I pass the save?
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2020-10-20, 11:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Polearm Master in hardcover adventures - should the DM add magical polearms?
IMO, yes, magic items should be tailored to the party. And not just magic items, everything should be tailored to the party, and the party should be tailored to the adventure as well. Part of the campaign's narrative includes a town that was destroyed? Then the fighter who's backstory is that they were from a village that was destroyed is from that town. Party paladin's backstory includes that their mentor fell to the dark side and became an oath breaker? Now the big bad villain's lead general and chief advisor is that character's anti paladin former mentor instead of some random death knight.
I've got a dragonborn barbarian in my castle ravenloft campaign, who never knew his clan and was raised by humans. Well, now his ancestors are in the campaign as a group of dragonborn revenants who were defeated by strahd in the distant past, and, to bring the subject back to items, there will be a fancy heirloom magic maul carved from ancient dragon fang waiting for the player when he finds them and lifts the curse that binds their spirits to Barovia.
In general I find the magic items in pre-published adventures to be 1) too restrictive and 2) too generic. Sometimes there's an interesting item here or there that some portion of the campaign narrative revolves around, but more often it's a handful of magic swords, some gauntlets of ogre strength, some potions of healing, maybe a magic shield. A number of campaigns get better, or at least more interesting, if you not only tailor some of the generic magic items to the party but also re-randomize some of the rest.
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Whether in pre-published or generic ad libbed campaigns, I generally try to make things a bit more flexible. In eberron or Ravnica, there will be opportunities to buy or commission minor and more generic uncommon items from magewright shops and guild merchants, so if players are just concerned about having a magic great weapon, long bow, polearm, or shield by mid levels, the'll have the opportunity. More esoteric and rare stuff might be found at adventurer's guild auctions - eg brought back from expeditions to Xen'Drik. Players might not find exactly what they want there, but rare and interesting items will be found. And if the party ends up with something rare but not usable to them, they'll have the opportunity to auction it off as well.
In more generic settings like Forgotten Realms, the party will have the opportunity to earn favors from more powerful factions, npcs, fiends, fey, celestials, or even deities, and if a mid level character still hasn't randomly stumbled across a magic weapon that fits their build then such a favor very well may take the form of enchanting existing equipment to make it magical, or at least informing the character of where such an item might be found, leading to a minor sidequest.
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There's lots of ways to work that sort of thing into a campaign.
In principle I don't disagree with the idea that if a player chooses a restrictive build then there should be possible consequences from that choice, and those consequences might include appropriate magic equipment being rarer - ie, showing up later or requiring the party to go out of their way. Like, the treasure table's rolled a magic scimitar that nobody in the party is going to use, but you've heard of a legendary blacksmith at the top of Mount Sidequest who could reforge it into the head of a glaive. The consequences *shouldn't* be "this character will never get a magic weapon at all." At least, not imo.
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2020-10-20, 12:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Polearm Master in hardcover adventures - should the DM add magical polearms?
The typical solution at tables I run is for the PC to decide they want a magic polearm, then find out where they can get one.
After spending much coin and consulting lore masters, the PC discovers that the glaive master Sorren of Akadia is rumored to have been buried with his legendary weapon, Wind Reaver - in his high mountain tomb above the Vale of Issus.
This kind of PC-driven play has, in my experience, been the one that gives the most agency while also maintaining verisimilitude.
And it has the bonus of creating a new quest/adventure!
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2020-10-20, 01:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-10-20, 01:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Polearm Master in hardcover adventures - should the DM add magical polearms?
True. You might have to create an adventure for PCs who decide to take the initiative.
Or you could use a published adventure as the place where the PC's goal takes you.
At this point, swapping out a magic item in the written adventure keeps its integrity, since you are there for a specific PC-driven reason.
Though, frankly, it isn't very difficult to put together a fun 5-room dungeon as a side-quest when hunting down a specific item of legend.Last edited by Democratus; 2020-10-20 at 01:48 PM.
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2020-10-20, 02:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Polearm Master in hardcover adventures - should the DM add magical polearms?
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2020-10-20, 02:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Polearm Master in hardcover adventures - should the DM add magical polearms?
Is the burden really on the DM/GM though? IMO the burden is on the DM to ask the players, "What do you want to do or ask me?" and the burden is on the players to actually ask the questions they are interested in.
Microscope has a cool procedure that might be worth stealing for a 5E campaign. At the beginning of a Microscope game, players go around the table adding an item to either a Yes or No column for this game, e.g. "No monarchies", or "Yes Cthulhu." If other players have objections you talk it out until some kind of consensus is reached--this isn't a dictatorship, by anyone--and then change it or don't. Things that you'd normally expect don't have to be explicitly Yes'ed but can be No'ed ("no sorcerers or warlocks"), and things you wouldn't expect don't have to be explicitedly No'ed but can be Yes'ed ("yes DM will ensure fighters all get magic weapons of their favored type by Tier 3ish").
Keep going around the table until it feels fair to stop.Last edited by MaxWilson; 2020-10-20 at 02:49 PM.
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2020-10-20, 02:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Polearm Master in hardcover adventures - should the DM add magical polearms?
I think the referent was "adding a significant side quest to a hardcover, some of which are not open enough to easily admit one, increasing the work involved for someone who may have chosen the hardcover to save prep time in the first place." Simply replacing the weapon doesn't have the same issues, for sure.
Edit: there could be some issues, though: one recent adventure has a specific magic weapon intended as a foil for the BBEG, including a printed cardstock handout. (Spoiler: it's a longsword.) There's a bit more work involved there, especially since there are legends about it to refluff, etc.Last edited by x3n0n; 2020-10-20 at 02:47 PM.
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2020-10-20, 02:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Polearm Master in hardcover adventures - should the DM add magical polearms?
Agreed. If a player came to me saying they wanted to play a landsknecht (sp?) or a Chinese rising-sun glaive/nagamaki wielder it'd be one thing. But that's not what is driving this sudden demand for "oh hey can we change modules to have more polearms ..."
I mea, the DM could just as easily counter with "no, but I'll let you take a different Feat called Longsword Master, use all the polearm master features as long as you fight Longsword only (and no shield) or in two hands (versatile). Bonus action attack with modifier, and provoke an OA when they enter reach."Last edited by Tanarii; 2020-10-20 at 02:54 PM.
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2020-10-20, 06:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Polearm Master in hardcover adventures - should the DM add magical polearms?
Wanting to have a cool and interesting character and wanting to have a powerful character are not mutually exclusive concepts. In fact, one is actively facilitated by the other, since powerful characters feel effectual and can more reliably succeed at their chosen specialties.
For example, I wanted to play as a holy knight character, and thought the idea of wielding a cross-like barred spear where the bars were like small warhammers (the pointy kind) would be pretty rad. So polearm master was a natural fit. Ironically, the campaign I was playing in actually had a large number of polearms I could use (CoS has two magical quarterstaves and one magic spear, and they are all really good magic items).
If the argument was "PAM is too strong so there shouldn't be magical polearms", then people should really be getting rid of all the strong magical quarterstaves that are in pretty much every module.Last edited by AdAstra; 2020-10-20 at 06:40 PM.
The stars are calling, but let's come up with a good opening line before we answer
Spoiler: Homebrew of Mine
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2020-10-20, 06:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Polearm Master in hardcover adventures - should the DM add magical polearms?
Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2020-10-20 at 06:46 PM.
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2020-10-20, 06:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Polearm Master in hardcover adventures - should the DM add magical polearms?
I’m pretty sure some of this ground was covered in the martials vs spell caster thread. I just don’t see the difference between providing a martial a magic spear say in the prepublished adventure you get to a point where the PCs need to teleport somewhere.
Unfortunately no one rolled a full caster or the full caster bit it and re-rolled to something else do you just say sorry guys you didn’t metagame properly so you fail on your quest or do you provide them with a Mcguffin or NPC to provide the spell?
How is this any different from providing a PAM fighter a magic pole arm? It’s just whether you as DM want the party to succeed or do you as DM enjoy the party failing because you felt they didn’t metagame in a way acceptable to you as DM?
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2020-10-20, 06:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Polearm Master in hardcover adventures - should the DM add magical polearms?
Of course not. That's basically a rewording of the Stormwind fallacy.
But conversely, like the counterpoint to the stormwind fallacy fallacy, you cannot attribute wanting to have a powerful character and then going out and building a cool and interesting character around it to anything but that. Similar to optimizing a character first then going out and then finding a way to build roleplaying hooks that fit it. It's not bad to do so. But let's recognize what it is, because it affects the possible actual solutions if a problem arises because of it.
So, if the complaint is at its heart "I'm optimizing based on a powerful feat and now I can't find magical weapons for it" there's a couple of ways to approach fixing that.
- play without the optional feats (or without the one feat) so it's not optimized around so often
- nerf the one feat to bring it in line, so people don't optimize around it so often
- boost other feats so they're equally optimized around
- open up the one feat so it's features can be used with more weapons
- change the weapons in prewritten modules and rolled tables
- modify the weapon types allowed to certain kinds of magic weapons
If the complaint is "I'm building a glaive character because I was inspired by this one 80s martial arts movie I can't remember the name of" (actual inspiration I've had) then the solution might be as simple as allowing it as a Kensai weapon.
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2020-10-20, 07:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Polearm Master in hardcover adventures - should the DM add magical polearms?
"Sorry guys, they just blew up your home planet but since you are all Barbarians, now that (NPC captor) is dead you have no one to power the spelljammer to get you back home. I guess you're stuck here on the moon for the foreseeable future. Do you want me to narrate an appropriate end to the tragic story here and stop, or do you guys want to treat this as a new opportunity for adventure and explore the moon? Let's take a vote."
What's wrong with letting players fail sometimes? It's not like they have any right to be surprised at this outcome.
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2020-10-20, 08:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Polearm Master in hardcover adventures - should the DM add magical polearms?
I appreciate the knee-jerk vote of confidence, but I've been on vacation. Who did you think was me with whom you were agreeing?
As for my opinion -- As others have said, the #1 real solution for the OP is a session 0 -- let everyone know what's going down, how you'd like to move forward, get their input, make a decision, and let your players make informed decisions.
With regards to published modules: they really do play favorites, and I think if you play them as-is, you should really make sure that anyone considering PAM or any other weapon/shield/armor focus knows what they are getting into.
On the broader topic of weapon-specific feats, magic item rarity, and game design: I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with a game system --with character creation/development aspects that somewhat 'lock you in' to a given strategy (or at least make it wasted investment if you don't stay locked in)-- where one strategy might be 'really good at outset, but slowly becomes obsolete' (2wf in 5e), another might be 'really good using base equipment, but upgrade equipment is rare' (PAM), and another being 'ho-hum using base equipment, but some of the best upgrade equipment only shows up here' (longswords). That sounds fine. Meaningful differences in outcomes based on meaningful decisions. It certainly works better in 5e (where there are about a dozen workarounds to not having a magic weapon, much less the right magic weapon), than AD&D/2E where not having a +2 weapon going into a specific fight might mean you literally cannot defeat an encounter* and even the fighter has a very real possibility of not being proficient in the +2 weapon you do end up finding. Overall this isn't a problem. I tend to agree with whomever said PAM wasn't likely specifically intended to be balanced by low magic item frequency, if only because I doubt they expected everyone to use the magic items tables as-is (seriously, when one group is going to have vorpal warhammers and flametongue sickle, the next group doesn't use magic item, the next one has a magic item market in towns over 1000, an the fourth plays the modules 'as is,' using magic item frequency as a codified balancing mechanism becomes more noise than signal).
Regarding PAM in general: I don't dislike the feat (or what it does) in principle. I do dislike that the designers made it the only one. If there was one for polearms, one for axes, one for hammers, and so on (and not an official ruling against the sword-and-board one), and then clearer support for those who chose not to specialize, I think that would be a better theoretical version of the game. As it stands, every group of experienced players I play with have come to think of PAM as he 'cheeze' martial* option. And honestly that isn't fair, but it keeps happening.
*And yes to whomever implied that this was cutting off the bud that grew higher than the others amongst martial builds when there are spellcasters in the mix as well. That is true. The existence of that other source of problems does not make this one not be real.
Good options. I certainly used to do that when we added or subtracted weapons such that the DMG distribution didn't make sense (such as in 2E when The Complete Fighter's Guide or the like added a bunch of new weapons).
At work I have a team with 6 lawyers, and I believe 3 of them play (/have played/would play if they had time). Not outrageous, but certainly above the average population. OTOH, I also have 11 programmers and related IT professionals, and 10 of them play (/have played, etc.). Make of that what you will.
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2020-10-20, 09:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-10-21, 12:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Polearm Master in hardcover adventures - should the DM add magical polearms?
I feel as if it still hasn't been adequately addressed that one of the most ridiculous and clearly munchkin-y implementations of PAM, quarterstaff and shield, is fully supported in terms of magic items.
A lot of people are arguing on the basis of balance, but if we are, then there is still a major problem with adventures and their magical items. If we are going with the tack that PAM is too strong, and that having fewer magical items is a counterbalance to that, the prevalence of magical quarterstaffs directly interferes with that balance, and in a way that strains believability.
Why is a Glaive user given worse magic items than the guy running around twirling a magic stick? Because I can see little reason either balance-wise or story-wise as to how this would be the case.
As an example, I mentioned Curse of Strahd. That module has three magical one-handed polearms specifically mentioned. A +2 spear that gives you THP with every kill, a quarterstaff that restore HP with charges and hits, and a Staff of Power. The first and last option especially are easily comparable to the Sunsword you can also get, and would be stronger were it not for the undead focus of the campaign.The stars are calling, but let's come up with a good opening line before we answer
Spoiler: Homebrew of Mine
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2020-10-21, 01:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-10-21, 03:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Polearm Master in hardcover adventures - should the DM add magical polearms?
It's the DM's duty to inform the players about how they run the game, and it's the players' duty to abide by those rules once they agree to them.
More to the point of the thread: In my experience, the game will not be damaged because of a player's access to an optimal weapon for their build. It isn't something any DM should actively avoid.
However, the game is more mechanically interesting if the choice of equipment is mechanically meaningful. A PAM-user who finds a powerful magic greatsword but only has a mundane glaive has a meaningful choice to make with regards to which weapon to use in combat. Perhaps that same character might find a magic item that can cast Magic Weapon once per dawn? The other solution is to just grant a whole bunch of magic weapons of unequal power and capability; the same purpose is achieved.
There is a trend of aversion towards awarding too many magic items to a group, but you really can't award too many magic weapons. It's not like you can really benefit that much statistically from having a whole bunch of them *cough*except the staff of defense*cough*. I find it's the magic armor and the various wondrous items that you really have to look out for, since they can boost capabilities and especially defenses in ways that make a very profound impact on a character's power level.
Of course, it can be hard to make magic weapons feel special if you give out a lot of them, even if it's ultimately healthy for gameplay. If the prestige of magical weapons is important to you, make them really special and make them useful for the heroes, even if it's not strictly optimal for them. Just remember that no party will ever get excited over an item that they straight up can't use, so I strongly recommend against dropping useless loot unless it's for a one-time gag.
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2020-10-21, 08:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Polearm Master in hardcover adventures - should the DM add magical polearms?
Agreed. Any DM that doesn't house rule away shield and PAM shenanigans (with staff or spear now), or disallow any one of the large number of magical staves that would be ridiculous to use as a quarter staff, is getting what they asked for,
There is no such thing as a useless magic item, unless your campaign doesn't feature non-hostile NPCs in any meaningful capacity.Last edited by Tanarii; 2020-10-21 at 08:35 AM.
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2020-10-21, 08:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-10-21, 09:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Polearm Master in hardcover adventures - should the DM add magical polearms?
Now that spears are at long last included, it's not so goofy. Now, where are all of the magical spears other than the spear of backbiting ... poking things with a stick has a very long tradition ... even when This Is Sparta is not the game one is playing.
1. Magic items are truly random/organically determined.
2. Magic items are tailored, more or less.
but DMs should be free to adjust what's available.
Yeah, that's a fun approach.
I'll go with "many" rather than "all" since the published adventures don't just have PCs slay stuff all of the time.
Yes. Bring me a sea hag's liver; it's what I need to make that potion of growth ... is a fine advenure hook
also agree with this.Besides, what happens if only one magic polearm is found and three players want it? Magic items are like a box of chocolates.
A rational approach.
Elves would use a machete, but I like your dwarf idea there ... Let players earn stuff that helps make their characters cooler, tell their story, and live out their fantasy. Don't just shower the party with ideal magical items willy-nilly, of course. Magical items are more fun when acquiring and using them is memorable. And sometimes it's interesting to get something powerful that you weren't expecting that changes the way you think about your character and your strategies. But, overall I'd encourage DMs to offer opportunities for players to earn loot that suits them, if it remotely makes sense.[/QUOTE] And the earn it bit strike me as a key to making this fun.
@For Willie The Duck
Hmm, I suspect that whomever I was agreeing with (ad astra?) has the same avatar as you do. I tend to associate that avatar with you.Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2020-10-21 at 09:26 AM.
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2020-10-21, 09:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Polearm Master in hardcover adventures - should the DM add magical polearms?
Using a 1H spear and shield in the style of a 2H quarterstaff isn't just as goofy as it was when it was a 1H quarterstaff.
I mean, sure, fantasy and all, but damage should be reduced to 1 point with no modifier if they want us to be able to suspend our disbelief here.Last edited by Tanarii; 2020-10-21 at 09:31 AM.
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2020-10-21, 11:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Polearm Master in hardcover adventures - should the DM add magical polearms?
Can you rephrase that please? I think that my puzzlement was in quarterstaff ever being in polearm mastery in the first place. (I had some modest training in staff fighting years ago, and it makes my head hurt). The one-handed bit was just icing on the cake, and yet, since in that case both attacks to bludgeoning damage, there was an odd mechanical consistency.
I mean, sure, fantasy and all, but damage should be reduced to 1 point with no modifier
Also, using the shield first as a bonus actoin with shield master is the smart to apply that feat, since it is shield Mastery, and the dumbacity involved in Crawford's change of mind is yet another case of just bad judgment, failure to read the PHB, and FFS, the spear whould have been in Pole Arm mastery list from the get go.
A spear is the original pole arm, eh? And their should be a martial spear that does 1d8/1d10 versatile {rants and foams at the mouth as he drives off into the sunset ...}Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2020-10-21 at 11:44 AM.
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2020-10-21, 11:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Polearm Master in hardcover adventures - should the DM add magical polearms?
It sounds like I'm reigniting some older thing, but what exactly is wrong with spear and shield, or even stick and shield? Both of those exist IRL*, and it seems like they don't benefit from PAM as much as the reach based weapons, as quarterstaff or spear can't get GWM and the extra reaction attack doesn't combo with Sentinel at 5 ft range.
*Everyone knows the spartans for spear and shield, and for stick and shield, there are probably are better examples out there, but here's 2 students practicing one fighting style of stick and shield. The shields are just thai pads, and the sticks are padded†, but it is a legitimate martial art. I guess you could argue that those sticks aren't long enough to be quarterstaves but I believe similar tactics could be used with a longer stick.
And the BA "flip it around" hit makes more sense with a smaller weapon than a big one - I'll post another video example‡ but I've honestly always disliked the "tornado spin above the head" visualization of using the butt of a halberd to strike an enemy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBgUkoWZvfA
https://youtu.be/u39wn-F79O8
† let it be said that padded sticks hurt like hell and I don't like sparring with them because everyone immediately thinks "oh it's okay to go hard now" and next thing I know the back of my hand is sore for 3 weeks.
‡ please note I've been told by some people that "punyo" is a spanish slang term for a man's **** in some central or south american cultures. Be warned about the frustrations that come from spain spreading their language everywhere!Last edited by micahaphone; 2020-10-21 at 12:07 PM.
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2020-10-21, 12:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Polearm Master in hardcover adventures - should the DM add magical polearms?
Some players/GMs are averse to large numerical discrepancies in combat performance. Large is subjective. 5e made a big pitch about normalizing everyone’s numbers so there’s an expectation that there shouldn’t be outliers.
Add to this the hazy use case and the room for grumbling and accusations of munchkin will flyIf all rules are suggestions what happens when I pass the save?