Tripper Feats

[Crow]

Hi.

Aside from the feats required to get Improved Trip, what are the essential feats for a trip-focused combatant?

[kpenguin]

Knock-down

[kemmotar]

exotic weapon master:trip strike(or whatever its called) with a spiked chain if you're going for armed, otherwise knockdown with a part monk char....

EDIT:
my mistake...thought knockdown was only for unarmed...so yes pretty much that and a spiked chain will do the trick..combat reflexes can also help and weapon finesse to go with high dex

[horseboy]

Hold the line I'm also fond of Expert Tactician.
Oh yeah, Improved Init is handy also, so if you can go before them, then you can hold your attack until they stand up and can keep them down.

[Nebo_]

Jotunbrud from PGTF treats you as large for some things, tripping included.

[Nightblade]

EWP: Spiked Chain gives you about the best tripping weapon there is. I find these builds work best on AoOs. So...

Combat Reflexes
Deft Opportunist
Hold the Line

Also, my favorite was to get Improved Trip is the Wolf Totem Barbarian from Unearthed Arcana. You lose Trap Sense for it, but still get fast movement, rage, etc. Wolf Totem Barbarian 2/Fighter 2 can be an excellent start. You don't have to take Combat Expertise, allowing you to dump Int if needed, and you can spend that feat on something like Extra Rage, getting you Rage 3 times/day, once per standard encounter.

[martyboy74]

Getting Abeeant Blood + Inhuman Reach (LoM) or Willing Deformity + Deformity (Tall) both net you 5' of reach, which is doubled if you're using a reach weapon. Also, size increases are a nice way to pick up reach, although their penalties on dex are rather annoying.

[Crow]

Hold the Line looks pretty awesome, as even with a spiked chain, large opponents can still get in on me. But does it only work against charges? Or does normal movement count too?

Knock-down looks very nice as well.

Forgive me, but I can't seem to find Deft Opprotunist or Expert Tactician. I can't go to the SRD because of Websense. Can anyone tell me what books these are in, or just a brief summary of what they do? Deft Opprotunist gives you a +4 to hit on attacks of opprotunity, right?

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Hold the Line looks pretty awesome, as even with a spiked chain, large opponents can still get in on me. But does it only work against charges? Or does normal movement count too?

Only charges.

Knock-down looks very nice as well.

Just note that Improved Trip does not grant an extra attack when you are using Knock-down according to S&F errata.

Forgive me, but I can't seem to find Deft Opprotunist or Expert Tactician. I can't go to the SRD because of Websense. Can anyone tell me what books these are in, or just a brief summary of what they do? Deft Opprotunist gives you a +4 to hit on attacks of opprotunity, right?

You pretty much nailed Deft Opportunist. (Saying much more would be quoting the entire feat )
It can be found in Complete Adventurer and Miniatures Handbook.

Expert Tactician (Complete Adventurer, Song and Silence & Sword and Fist) grants benefits to attack and damage to you and your allies on a successful AoO.

[Arbitrarity]

Also, for two feats, investing in Martial Study: (Insert Devoted Spirit manuver here), and Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades) is quite nice for the AOO's. ToB, and you can't get Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades) before level 10 :/.

Deft opportunist is complete adventurer, and yes, +4 on AOO's. Expert tactician is in the same book, and after you hit someone with an AOO, you and allies get +2 damage and to hit against them for a round.

If you have a bunch of extra feats, elusive target (CWAR) (requiring dodge and mobility and sidestep (Miniature handbook, or Opportunistic Tactician, DR 340) can be useful.

[Crow]

Thanks for all the help guys! My players will curse your names if they ever find out =D

[ocato]

If he's an unarmed tripper, I believe defensive throw is nice for a high AC character. If they miss, you get to trip.

[martyboy74]

Stand Still lets you stop pretty much anyone who provokes an AoO for moving at all.

[Curmudgeon]

Expert Tactician (Complete Adventurer, Song and Silence & Sword and Fist) grants benefits to attack and damage to you and your allies on a successful AoO.

Referencing the older Expert Tactician feats is rather misleading. WotC says that newer versions with the same name replace older content, and the older versions of Expert Tactician have the same name and short description -- but completely different benefits than the 3.5 "update". They figured that the 3.0 ET was too good, and whacked it soundly with the nerf bat.

[Armads]

Evasive Reflexes (ToB) + Combat Reflexes + Thicket of Blades (ToB)

When they move towards you, they provoke an AoO. Evasive Reflexes lets you take a 5ft step instead of an AoO. So if someone charges you, you can use the AoOs you get (about 2) to move to the side, so his charge won't hit you.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Referencing the older Expert Tactician feats is rather misleading. WotC says that newer versions with the same name replace older content, and the older versions of Expert Tactician have the same name and short description -- but completely different benefits than the 3.5 "update". They figured that the 3.0 ET was too good, and whacked it soundly with the nerf bat.

Of course the newest version is RAW, but it is not like the RAW is perfectly balanced in the first place. I am sure you can find things that are more broken than 3.0 ET in the 3.5 RAW.

I provided the older references in case anyone interested did not have access to CA, but had an older 3.0 book.

I think most people are aware that a few things were changed from 3.0 to 3.5 and will use the newest version they have.
If not, they should know after reading your post.

[Kompera]

Evasive Reflexes (ToB) + Combat Reflexes + Thicket of Blades (ToB)

When they move towards you, they provoke an AoO. Evasive Reflexes lets you take a 5ft step instead of an AoO. So if someone charges you, you can use the AoOs you get (about 2) to move to the side, so his charge won't hit you.

I think you'd only get a single AoO against any given charging foe.

Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity

If you have the Combat Reflexes feat you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus. [My emphasis]

Unless Thicket of Blades grants the additional AoO? I'm not familiar with that Feat.

The OP asked for Feats, but they seem to have been fairly well covered by now. So I'll add that a focus on STR and size can help a lot when looking to trip. The Spiked Chain has also been mentioned, and it is the best Tripping weapon by far due to its reach, but for a character without that Feat to spare for proficiency the Heavy Flail offers the same ability to Trip plus is a 2-handed weapon which helps with other things such as Disarm attempts. The Dire Flail shares the same advantage, but takes a Feat just as the Spiked Chain does.

[BardicDuelist]

While by no means essential, if you are not Str oriented, taking a couple levels of marshal will get you an aura that allows Cha to trip.

[leperkhaun]

Here is a link from the Wizard CO boards. Its a build that basically optimizes tripping to include attacks against trippes and controlling the battlefield

Your build might require some toning down depending on the powerlevel of your game.


http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=163005


Edit: This build features a straight fighter 20. Later in the thread other class suggestions are made, but i dont think the thread takes into account ToB.

[AslanCross]

I think you'd only get a single AoO against any given charging foe.

Unless Thicket of Blades grants the additional AoO? I'm not familiar with that Feat.

Thicket of Blades is a stance from the Devoted Spirit discipline (Tome of Battle.) It allows you an AOO in response to any movement an opponent you threaten makes, including a five foot step.

Question: When you use knockdown on an opponent, do you get a free follow-up attack against him? That sounds sweet.

[horseboy]

The OP asked for Feats, but they seem to have been fairly well covered by now. So I'll add that a focus on STR and size can help a lot when looking to trip. The Spiked Chain has also been mentioned, and it is the best Tripping weapon by far due to its reach, but for a character without that Feat to spare for proficiency the Heavy Flail offers the same ability to Trip plus is a 2-handed weapon which helps with other things such as Disarm attempts. The Dire Flail shares the same advantage, but takes a Feat just as the Spiked Chain does.

There's also the guisamre. A nice reach weapon that trips. Course, if you take that you will probably want to look into short haft (PHBII) to snag people right next to you.

You also want to decide if you want to focus on damage or control.

[Sepp]

Thicket of Blades is a stance from the Devoted Spirit discipline (Tome of Battle.) It allows you an AOO in response to any movement an opponent you threaten makes, including a five foot step.

Question: When you use knockdown on an opponent, do you get a free follow-up attack against him? That sounds sweet.

I asked this question on the Q&A by RAW thread, and the answer given was no.
Link

[Kompera]

Thicket of Blades is a stance from the Devoted Spirit discipline (Tome of Battle.) It allows you an AOO in response to any movement an opponent you threaten makes, including a five foot step.

Does that supersede the SRD for Combat Reflexes and AoO which say you can only get a single AoO on any one opponent, no matter how many threatened spaces he moves out of? (Paraphrasing, exact quote is above). Armads' post seemed to suggest that the combination of Feats would give more than one AoO vs the same opponent. It's nice to get an AoO against an opponent taking a 5 foot step, but the question is can you get more than one AoO on the same guy?

There's also the guisamre. A nice reach weapon that trips.

Indeed, and thanks for the correction. I tend to both Trip and Disarm with my current character, and so I've got a little tunnel vision going since I've focused on weapons that can both trip and offer the +2 to disarm.

[Kaelik]

Does that supersede the SRD for Combat Reflexes and AoO which say you can only get a single AoO on any one opponent, no matter how many threatened spaces he moves out of? (Paraphrasing, exact quote is above). Armads' post seemed to suggest that the combination of Feats would give more than one AoO vs the same opponent. It's nice to get an AoO against an opponent taking a 5 foot step, but the question is can you get more than one AoO on the same guy?

I believe his point was that you'd get multiple AoO on a charger because you threaten many squares.

[Kompera]

I believe his point was that you'd get multiple AoO on a charger because you threaten many squares.

I understood that to be his point also. I'm just wondering if it's legal, since the SRD quote I made above seems to specifically disallow multiple AoO caused by movement against any single opponent.

[Kaelik]

I understood that to be his point also. I'm just wondering if it's legal, since the SRD quote I made above seems to specifically disallow multiple AoO caused by movement against any single opponent.

A single movement provokes one AoO. However we are talking about someone with reach. Like a Large creature wielding a Spiked Chain. This means that they must move from a threatened square (the act that provokes AoOs) three times in order to end adjacent to you. Therefore they perform three separate acts that provoke AoOs. Just as a Wizard that moved through your threatened square, cast a touch spell (non-defensively), and then attempted to touch you would provoke three AoOs. Because they performed three separate actions.

You are just misreading that part of Combat Reflexes. It prevents you from using seven AoOs on one persons retreat from your threatened square, but you can still take multiple AoO if the move out of a threatened square multiple times.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Regardless of the number of threatened squares you leave you only provoke one AoO for movement.

Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.

(My emphasis)

[Stam]

Best non-cheesed build I'd think of would be...

Jotunbrud.
Improved Trip.
Knock-down.
Stand Still.

With a reach weapon and spiked/razored armor. They close, you whack 'em and knock them over. They try to get up, you whack them again. (Probably no additional trip on that one.)
On your turn, you whack them again and knock them over again...when they try to stand up at the beginning of their turn, you use Stand Still on your AoO instead of just dealing damage. Bingo, they can't close on you and can only do whatever from ranged.

Throw a few other feats in here like Mage Slayer, and you can probably even make this into a mage-killer as well.

[Kompera]

Regardless of the number of threatened squares you leave you only provoke one AoO for movement.


(My emphasis)

Yeah, Kaelik and I have this relationship, see. I post stuff, and he ignores it and posts contradictory stuff. I both posted the exact SRD quote as Lord_Silvanos and referenced it in a second post above. But Kaelik doesn't read that and instead tells me that I'm mis-reading the rules...

My only question was concerning the possibility of Thicket of Blades invalidating the SRD on this point, since I'm not familiar with that Feat.

Kaelik, your first example I believe is valid. The movement, cast, and touch would all give an AoO (and a dead Wizard, most likely).

But the rules specifically disallow multiple AoO caused by movement alone against any single opponent. There seems to be no exception made for creatures with a large reach due to size, weapon, or any combination of the two. Thus the post by Armads where he says "if someone charges you, you can use the AoOs you get (about 2)", I believe to be in error, you'd get only one AoO, and with the Evasive Reflexes that could be turned into a single 5 foot step. Without considering terrain, this will not let you avoid a charge.

[Kaelik]

Regardless of the number of threatened squares you leave you only provoke one AoO for movement.


(My emphasis)

Thank you Silvanos, I did not bother to read the SRD on this, but I believe this is one of those instances of the SRD contradicting the PHB. Since I see no such statement in it. I also find it to be contradictory to the intent of the rules themselves, since clearly running circles around another character would leave you open to more then one attack.

Yeah, Kaelik and I have this relationship, see. I post stuff, and he ignores it and posts contradictory stuff.

Yeah, Kompera and I have this relationship, see. He posts backhanded insults about me, and I Identify his posts solely by that marker.

(I didn't even realize it was you, I just looked sideways and thought it was Horseboy, but I did a doubletake and rechecked once I saw your insult.)

I both posted the exact SRD quote as Lord_Silvanos and referenced it in a second post above.

I'm sorry I didn't go back 20 posts to read a quote from the SRD, because I found it easier to look in the PHB.