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  1. - Top - End - #271
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Goblin_Priest View Post
    Wait, what? They aren't?

    The Snarl is more of a plot device than a villain. We even have a load of evidence that it isn't even a villain, or at least not exactly as it's described to be.

    Without Team Evil to jeopardize the gates, the Snarl isn't really significant. The Order can't even do anything about the rifts without Team Evil's Redcloak.

    I'm not sure at which point the IFCC will swoop in to become meaningful, and what their foreshadowing will unfold into, but I can't fathom the thought of the Order defeating Team Evil and then the story continuing for a bunch more books, equating Xykon with Nale, basically.
    If our knowledge about what's going on inside the rifts was more concrete, I'd agree with you. But its less that Xykon and Redcloak are Nale-like in their villainy, and more that they're just not the serious threat. Xykon is completely blind to what the ritual will do, and Redcloak's plan is to hold the gods hostage to give The Dark One greater negotiating power. I mean, he's almost certainly not above unleashing the Snarl in limited doses to prove a point, so I struggle to say anything that "that's all his plan is", once you upgrade to potential deicide I think you can strut around as much as you want.

    But I think it's more that I don't think this story *has* a main villain. Not in the conventional sense. Because defeating the IFCC and Xykon wouldn't solve things from a Story perspective. Sure, it'd sort out all the threats, but it'd feel wholly incomplete. Whatever is up with the Snarl is the most important thing to resolve in the Story, especially because of how little we know about it and how odd and puzzling the small glimpses we've seen are.

  2. - Top - End - #272

    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Petrocorus View Post
    Alec Guinness's character in BotRK is awesome by his complexity. One could probably make an analysis of this character longer than the movie itself.
    Spoiler: BotRK
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    How easy it is to all the wrong things for all the good reasons? Was it really the wrong things? Were his reasons good? What would we do in his stead? What side was he actually on in the end?
    He's a completely different character in the book, an old school colonial officer who is essentially a sociopath who treats his men and the Japanese the same--as resources to be ground into dust to achieve his goals. Needless to say, there is no Heel Face Turn involved.

  3. - Top - End - #273
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    PirateWench

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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    Normally, we at least get to the start of the plan before going off the rails.
    You need to play more Paranoia. :D
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  4. - Top - End - #274
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    Devil

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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    The hobgoblins of Hobgoblin City have this weird, toxicly Lawful, kraterocratic thing running. For them, becoming the Supreme Leader via killing the current Supreme Leader is a legitimate way of acquiring power. They appear to submit themselves willingly to the Supreme Leader (think of the unsettling glee with which they accept orders to basically kill themselves in gruesome ways).
    Both you and Jason discuss Redcloak killing Supreme Leader while in the comic Redcloak killed hobgoblin who was conducting the ritual (having mistakenly assumed that he was SL) and actual Supreme leader have witnessed that and quietly pretended that the guy who was murdered was SL, lest he will be killed too. Which may be how things are supposed to happen or may be just another instance of "do as you told or be killed" like we have seen in goblin village in SoD; we don't have enough information.
    Last edited by Saint-Just; 2020-10-21 at 01:51 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #275
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    The gods are a bunch of jerks either way, though.
    As seen through the eyes of a self interested human, yes.
    The hobgoblins of Hobgoblin City have this weird, toxicly Lawful, kraterocratic thing running. For them, becoming the Supreme Leader via killing the current Supreme Leader is a legitimate way of acquiring power. They appear to submit themselves willingly to the Supreme Leader (think of the unsettling glee with which they accept orders to basically kill themselves in gruesome ways).
    FWIW, in GDGU (How the Paladin Got His Scar) the hobgoblin leadership / succession methods are explored in a bit more detail. But I won't derail into that here.
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  6. - Top - End - #276
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    Both you and Jason discuss Redcloak killing Supreme Leader while in the comic Redcloak killed hobgoblin who was conducting the ritual (having mistakenly assumed that he was SL) and actual Supreme leader have witnessed that and quietly pretended that the guy who was murdered was SL, lest he will be killed too. Which may be how things are supposed to happen or may be just another instance of "do as you told or be killed" like we have seen in goblin village in SoD; we don't have enough information.
    Well, the cleric in question explicitly tells him that simply vanquishing the current supreme leader makes one the supreme leader.

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    As seen through the eyes of a self interested human, yes.
    FWIW, in GDGU (How the Paladin Got His Scar) the hobgoblin leadership / succession methods are explored in a bit more detail. But I won't derail into that here.
    Does Good Deeds contradict the above?

  7. - Top - End - #277
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraithfighter View Post
    If our knowledge about what's going on inside the rifts was more concrete, I'd agree with you. But its less that Xykon and Redcloak are Nale-like in their villainy, and more that they're just not the serious threat. Xykon is completely blind to what the ritual will do, and Redcloak's plan is to hold the gods hostage to give The Dark One greater negotiating power. I mean, he's almost certainly not above unleashing the Snarl in limited doses to prove a point, so I struggle to say anything that "that's all his plan is", once you upgrade to potential deicide I think you can strut around as much as you want.

    But I think it's more that I don't think this story *has* a main villain.
    Sure it does. It's Xykon.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    The MacGuffin is not the antagonist. The MacGuffin is the object sought by the antagonist. Narratively speaking, it does not matter what it does—only that the antagonist is willing to kill the protagonist to get it. That is the source of the conflict. It does not matter what is in the rift, it matters who is willing to kill whom to get it, even if they are mistaken about its usefulness. What is in the rift is only important insofar as it may, at some point, change who is willing to kill whom and why. And that IS important, because those details will change the shape of what happens, but not as the source of conflict. The Snarl is not the threat; Xykon is the threat. The Snarl's powers have as much relevance to the quest to get the Snarl as the exact properties of the glowing briefcase have on the plot of Pulp Fiction, or the exact dollar value of the statue in The Maltese Falcon.

    Likewise, the setting is not the protagonist. What happens to the world is only important because the protagonists are the sort of people who care about what happens to the world. If Team Evil or the Linear Guild kills the entire Order of the Stick and then takes the Gate only to find that it does not do what they thought it did...how does that help the Order of the Stick? They will still be dead, and the story is about them. The Linear Guild is not a threat because they will do something bad with the Gate; they are a threat because they will kill the Order of the Stick to do it. At the end of Star Wars, one does not care that the Death Star is about to blow up Yavin 4; one cares that the Death Star is about to kill the protagonists, some of whom happen to be on Yavin 4.

    If one does not care about the protagonists or antagonists and is not emotionally invested in their struggles—whether those struggles are external or internal, relevant to the MacGuffin plot or not—and all one cares about is the resolution of the MacGuffin chase, then you will almost certainly be bored with a lot of the material I'm producing. And more importantly, I won't care. The Snarl plot is part of the armature upon which I hang the characters' conflicts; it is not the whole of the story. The strip is titled The Order of the Stick, not The Chase for the Snarl or even Saving the World. Ultimately, it seems like you want the story to be about things it is not going to be about, so it's unlikely you are ever going to enjoy it.
    Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.

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  8. - Top - End - #278
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraithfighter View Post
    If our knowledge about what's going on inside the rifts was more concrete, I'd agree with you. But its less that Xykon and Redcloak are Nale-like in their villainy, and more that they're just not the serious threat. Xykon is completely blind to what the ritual will do, and Redcloak's plan is to hold the gods hostage to give The Dark One greater negotiating power. I mean, he's almost certainly not above unleashing the Snarl in limited doses to prove a point, so I struggle to say anything that "that's all his plan is", once you upgrade to potential deicide I think you can strut around as much as you want.

    But I think it's more that I don't think this story *has* a main villain. Not in the conventional sense. Because defeating the IFCC and Xykon wouldn't solve things from a Story perspective. Sure, it'd sort out all the threats, but it'd feel wholly incomplete. Whatever is up with the Snarl is the most important thing to resolve in the Story, especially because of how little we know about it and how odd and puzzling the small glimpses we've seen are.
    I'm pretty sure Rich has stated that Redcloak can't release the Snarl in limited doses. The only thing the ritual allows him to do is give Big Purple the ability to move a hole in the Snarl's prison to another plane, after which the Snarl can freely use it to get out of its prison.

    It was described as having a nuke. You can either use the nuke to blow something up, after which the nuke is gone, or you don't use the nuke and it's still there as a threat. You can't really cut off pieces of the nuke and use them as a smaller bomb.

  9. - Top - End - #279
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Yeah, it's pretty plain that Xykon is the primary villain.

    I would add that the name of the strip is not The Quest for Goblin Equality or The Tragedy of Redcloak either

  10. - Top - End - #280
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    Well, the cleric in question explicitly tells him that simply vanquishing the current supreme leader makes one the supreme leader.
    Yes, I shouldacheckedamapacomic. My mistake was worse than question of whether RC actually killed Supreme leader or merely cowed him into submission.

  11. - Top - End - #281
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    I can only think of one (after Xykon's body got destroyed) and there are psychologically plausible explanations for why he chose as he did.
    Operating under the assumption that “obey or die” isn’t a choice (which it is.), and not mentioning that every single human choice has “psychologically plausible explanations for why he chose as he did” if you try hard enough, I can list a few clear examples :
    - The Fight against Dorukan
    - The Fight against Soon
    - The Fight against Darth V
    - Any point in Kraagor’s Tomb where they fought foes able to threaten Xykon, just dismiss all his wards and start healing the monsters instead of him.

  12. - Top - End - #282
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    Well, the cleric in question explicitly tells him that simply vanquishing the current supreme leader makes one the supreme leader.

    Does Good Deeds contradict the above?
    Not as such. It doesn't confirm it either, but a wise leader doesn't want to put too much emphasis on the idea that you can take over by killing the old boss.
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  13. - Top - End - #283
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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post

    I would add that the name of the strip is not The Quest for Goblin Equality or The Tragedy of Redcloak either
    Correct. It is not. It is still a pretty big theme, or at least one of the "struggles" of one of the antagonists. And complex antagonists make for interesting stories.




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    I'd say Xykon did enslave the goblins at the end of SoD, since the other alternative was having their town redecorated with their own guts. The hobgoblins from the valley hmm... they presented an alternative to becoming a honorary hobgoblin and once Redcloak was Supreme Leader they just followed orders militaristically as Redcloak mentioned it was their tradition. I don't think they were liberated from Azure City since they had their own territory and were doing alright over there. Effectively there was an armistice if not a truce with the Azurites.

  14. - Top - End - #284
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Sure it does. It's Xykon.
    Interesting, thanks for the link, I hadn't seen that!

    But leaving aside the possibility that Rich's story might have changed/evolved from where it was seven years ago (which, well, stories kinda tend to do), I think this is more of an "argument over definitions" situation. Drop the rigid words that might not click together perfectly, and lets loop back around to what I'm thinking here: That there's this big, huge unknown that every single character in the story, from the infernal to the deific to the folks with their boots on the ground, have no idea about or what to make of it.

    Because Rich is indeed right, the setting isn't the story... but that doesn't mean that the facts about the setting can't change things about the characters that the story is about. The last several strips have be about wedges between members of the same team, whether its how Redcloak's goals and Xykon's don't mesh and Durkon's efforts to pull the goblin away from the Lich, MITD's efforts at sabotage, or Durkon and Minrah going rogue going against the main party. Because while yes that secret about what's going on in the Snarl/rifts isn't the story, what does matter is what that information would do to the Order of the Stick.

    Because a lot of the discussion thus far has felt like it's been focused on the Big Showdown Between Team Evil and The Order Of The Stick... and there's like 3-4 other complications brewing too.
    Last edited by Wraithfighter; 2020-10-21 at 03:56 PM.

  15. - Top - End - #285
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    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraithfighter View Post
    But I think it's more that I don't think this story *has* a main villain.
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Sure it does. It's Xykon.
    Dang, beat me to it. Quotes and everything!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    Yeah, it's pretty plain that Xykon is the primary villain.

    I would add that the name of the strip is not The Quest for Goblin Equality or The Tragedy of Redcloak either
    What's your point in comparing Redcloak to Rich's comments about The MacGuffin? Maybe I'm misunderstanding but it sounds like you're saying his backstory isn't relevant to the story, which I'd disagree with.

    There can certainly be multiple storylines running within the story, even for the villains. The story wasn't "about" Tarquin, Nale, Tsukiko, Malack, Crystal, or Miko either, but each one of those antagonists certainly got some nice characterization and had their arcs wrapped up in a narratively satisfying way. I'd expect the same will happen for both Xykon and Redcloak, even if their backstories aren't "The Point" of the story.

  16. - Top - End - #286
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Shirow View Post
    • They blame the extra painted doors on...
    The extra painted door, singular.

    If Team Evil discovers that this door has not been cleared, then they have evidence of one door not being cleared.

    Before they could blame extra painted doors, plural, on somebody, they must first learn that this is the case.
    Last edited by Fish; 2020-10-21 at 04:08 PM.
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  17. - Top - End - #287
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    What's your point in comparing Redcloak to Rich's comments about The MacGuffin? Maybe I'm misunderstanding but it sounds like you're saying his backstory isn't relevant to the story, which I'd disagree with.

    There can certainly be multiple storylines running within the story, even for the villains. The story wasn't "about" Tarquin, Nale, Tsukiko, Malack, Crystal, or Miko either, but each one of those antagonists certainly got some nice characterization and had their arcs wrapped up in a narratively satisfying way. I'd expect the same will happen for both Xykon and Redcloak, even if their backstories aren't "The Point" of the story.
    No doubt we will get a satisfying conclusion to Redcloak's arc. I'm just pointing out that Redcloak and the goblins are not the focus of the story any more than the Snarl is.

    Redcloak already had a whole book basically about him - Start of Darkness - he's not likely to get another.

  18. - Top - End - #288
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    No doubt we will get a satisfying conclusion to Redcloak's arc. I'm just pointing out that Redcloak and the goblins are not the focus of the story any more than the Snarl is.

    Redcloak already had a whole book basically about him - Start of Darkness - he's not likely to get another.
    Agreed. I'm not really expecting the goblinoid plight to take center stage much more than it already has. I do predict Redcloak will get more focus than any prior books, except maybe War & XPs.

    I'd argue that Redcloak & goblins already get more story focus than the Snarl, just by virtue of being present & active. The Snarl is a scary thing off in the distance, but Redcloak and his goblinoid army are real and they affect the plot much more directly.

  19. - Top - End - #289
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    The Tragedy of Redcloak either
    The tragedy of Redcloak is an important thread in the weave of the whole tale, however.
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  20. - Top - End - #290
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    The tragedy of Redcloak is an important thread in the weave of the whole tale, however.
    It's not a story the Jason would tell you.

  21. - Top - End - #291
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    It's not a story the Jason would tell you.
    What makes you say that? I already said I like Redcloak and find his story to be a tragic one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    I like Redcloak. His backstory and his refusal to let go of his obsession are tragic.
    Last edited by Jason; 2020-10-21 at 05:19 PM. Reason: See?

  22. - Top - End - #292
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    What makes you say that? I already said I like Redcloak and find his story to be a tragic one.
    Ah, shoot. I made my references too obscure again, didn't I.
    Last edited by Ionathus; 2020-10-21 at 05:21 PM. Reason: obscure, not oblique

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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    Ah, okay. Yeah, the prequels were not my first thought. I was thinking more Shakespeare. "The Tragedy of Macbeth" and the like.

    "Worship of the Dark One is a pathway to many abilities some would consider unnatural."
    Indeed.
    Last edited by Jason; 2020-10-21 at 05:35 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fish View Post
    The extra painted door, singular.

    If Team Evil discovers that this door has not been cleared, then they have evidence of one door not being cleared.

    Before they could blame extra painted doors, plural, on somebody, they must first learn that this is the case.
    Fair enough.

  25. - Top - End - #295
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    I appreciated it, if that helps.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fish View Post
    The extra painted door, singular.

    If Team Evil discovers that this door has not been cleared, then they have evidence of one door not being cleared.

    Before they could blame extra painted doors, plural, on somebody, they must first learn that this is the case.
    Now that their suspicions are up, it shouldn't be hard to do that.

  27. - Top - End - #297
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacky720 View Post
    Now that their suspicions are up, it shouldn't be hard to do that.
    At the very least, it should sprout a niggling seed of paranoia about whether or not the painted X's can be trusted.

  28. - Top - End - #298
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Baine View Post
    At the very least, it should sprout a niggling seed of paranoia about whether or not the painted X's can be trusted.
    More than that. If I was in their place? First thing I would do would be to scout out marked passages to see if this just an isolated oops, see if there's any monsters in them, and withdraw without a fight if possible (...also, ideally, using disposable minions or summons for the scouting, this is Team Evil we're talking about). Because you don't need to send in the main party into each one, you can check them considerably faster. It wouldn't take long before they'd get a full impression of how many doors have been falsely marked.

    ...of course, that seems like a pretty simple and easy way to sort out this problem on Team Evil's side, which is also why I'm betting they don't get a chance to do it >_>.
    Last edited by Wraithfighter; 2020-10-22 at 02:03 AM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    Dear lord, this is delightful. Thank you for this glimpse into an alternate reality!
    Thanks! It's good to know the discussion thread isn't just a place where people are arguing about whether a subject can be argued about. And Star Wars.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Riftwolf View Post
    Thanks! It's good to know the discussion thread isn't just a place where people are arguing about whether a subject can be argued about. And Star Wars.
    Occasionally, it also contains hyper specific mind-breaking revelations about LOTR! Every couple days or so I remember when people were discussing a couple pages back the fact that Middle Earth is, like, actually flat and then suddenly became not-flat and that's just like. a reasoning for why elves can see really far like it was a normal thing and I feel like a wrinkled up dried satsuma. Ignorant to the beautiful, terrible machinations of the universe.
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