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2020-10-21, 01:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2007
Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread
If our knowledge about what's going on inside the rifts was more concrete, I'd agree with you. But its less that Xykon and Redcloak are Nale-like in their villainy, and more that they're just not the serious threat. Xykon is completely blind to what the ritual will do, and Redcloak's plan is to hold the gods hostage to give The Dark One greater negotiating power. I mean, he's almost certainly not above unleashing the Snarl in limited doses to prove a point, so I struggle to say anything that "that's all his plan is", once you upgrade to potential deicide I think you can strut around as much as you want.
But I think it's more that I don't think this story *has* a main villain. Not in the conventional sense. Because defeating the IFCC and Xykon wouldn't solve things from a Story perspective. Sure, it'd sort out all the threats, but it'd feel wholly incomplete. Whatever is up with the Snarl is the most important thing to resolve in the Story, especially because of how little we know about it and how odd and puzzling the small glimpses we've seen are.
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2020-10-21, 01:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2013
Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread
He's a completely different character in the book, an old school colonial officer who is essentially a sociopath who treats his men and the Japanese the same--as resources to be ground into dust to achieve his goals. Needless to say, there is no Heel Face Turn involved.
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2020-10-21, 01:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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- Maryland
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2020-10-21, 01:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2019
Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread
Both you and Jason discuss Redcloak killing Supreme Leader while in the comic Redcloak killed hobgoblin who was conducting the ritual (having mistakenly assumed that he was SL) and actual Supreme leader have witnessed that and quietly pretended that the guy who was murdered was SL, lest he will be killed too. Which may be how things are supposed to happen or may be just another instance of "do as you told or be killed" like we have seen in goblin village in SoD; we don't have enough information.
Last edited by Saint-Just; 2020-10-21 at 01:51 PM.
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2020-10-21, 02:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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- Texas
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Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread
As seen through the eyes of a self interested human, yes.
The hobgoblins of Hobgoblin City have this weird, toxicly Lawful, kraterocratic thing running. For them, becoming the Supreme Leader via killing the current Supreme Leader is a legitimate way of acquiring power. They appear to submit themselves willingly to the Supreme Leader (think of the unsettling glee with which they accept orders to basically kill themselves in gruesome ways).Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2020-10-21, 02:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2020
Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread
Well, the cleric in question explicitly tells him that simply vanquishing the current supreme leader makes one the supreme leader.
Does Good Deeds contradict the above?
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2020-10-21, 02:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Washington D.C.
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2020-10-21, 02:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2018
Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread
I'm pretty sure Rich has stated that Redcloak can't release the Snarl in limited doses. The only thing the ritual allows him to do is give Big Purple the ability to move a hole in the Snarl's prison to another plane, after which the Snarl can freely use it to get out of its prison.
It was described as having a nuke. You can either use the nuke to blow something up, after which the nuke is gone, or you don't use the nuke and it's still there as a threat. You can't really cut off pieces of the nuke and use them as a smaller bomb.
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2020-10-21, 02:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
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- Somewhere in Utah...
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Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread
Yeah, it's pretty plain that Xykon is the primary villain.
I would add that the name of the strip is not The Quest for Goblin Equality or The Tragedy of Redcloak either
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2020-10-21, 02:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2019
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2020-10-21, 02:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2019
Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread
Operating under the assumption that “obey or die” isn’t a choice (which it is.), and not mentioning that every single human choice has “psychologically plausible explanations for why he chose as he did” if you try hard enough, I can list a few clear examples :
- The Fight against Dorukan
- The Fight against Soon
- The Fight against Darth V
- Any point in Kraagor’s Tomb where they fought foes able to threaten Xykon, just dismiss all his wards and start healing the monsters instead of him.
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2020-10-21, 03:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2007
Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread
Assistant Treasurer of the Haley fan club
Crewman of the Bandana fan club
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2020-10-21, 03:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2020
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- Japan
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Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread
Correct. It is not. It is still a pretty big theme, or at least one of the "struggles" of one of the antagonists. And complex antagonists make for interesting stories.
Spoiler: SoD,GDGUI'd say Xykon did enslave the goblins at the end of SoD, since the other alternative was having their town redecorated with their own guts. The hobgoblins from the valley hmm... they presented an alternative to becoming a honorary hobgoblin and once Redcloak was Supreme Leader they just followed orders militaristically as Redcloak mentioned it was their tradition. I don't think they were liberated from Azure City since they had their own territory and were doing alright over there. Effectively there was an armistice if not a truce with the Azurites.
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2020-10-21, 03:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2007
Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread
Interesting, thanks for the link, I hadn't seen that!
But leaving aside the possibility that Rich's story might have changed/evolved from where it was seven years ago (which, well, stories kinda tend to do), I think this is more of an "argument over definitions" situation. Drop the rigid words that might not click together perfectly, and lets loop back around to what I'm thinking here: That there's this big, huge unknown that every single character in the story, from the infernal to the deific to the folks with their boots on the ground, have no idea about or what to make of it.
Because Rich is indeed right, the setting isn't the story... but that doesn't mean that the facts about the setting can't change things about the characters that the story is about. The last several strips have be about wedges between members of the same team, whether its how Redcloak's goals and Xykon's don't mesh and Durkon's efforts to pull the goblin away from the Lich, MITD's efforts at sabotage, or Durkon and Minrah going rogue going against the main party. Because while yes that secret about what's going on in the Snarl/rifts isn't the story, what does matter is what that information would do to the Order of the Stick.
Because a lot of the discussion thus far has felt like it's been focused on the Big Showdown Between Team Evil and The Order Of The Stick... and there's like 3-4 other complications brewing too.Last edited by Wraithfighter; 2020-10-21 at 03:56 PM.
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2020-10-21, 04:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2013
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Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread
Dang, beat me to it. Quotes and everything!
What's your point in comparing Redcloak to Rich's comments about The MacGuffin? Maybe I'm misunderstanding but it sounds like you're saying his backstory isn't relevant to the story, which I'd disagree with.
There can certainly be multiple storylines running within the story, even for the villains. The story wasn't "about" Tarquin, Nale, Tsukiko, Malack, Crystal, or Miko either, but each one of those antagonists certainly got some nice characterization and had their arcs wrapped up in a narratively satisfying way. I'd expect the same will happen for both Xykon and Redcloak, even if their backstories aren't "The Point" of the story.
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2020-10-21, 04:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2007
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- Olympia, WA
Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread
Last edited by Fish; 2020-10-21 at 04:08 PM.
The Giant says: Yes, I am aware TV Tropes exists as a website. ... No, I have never decided to do something in the comic because it was listed on TV Tropes. I don't use it as a checklist for ideas ... and I have never intentionally referenced it in any way.
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2020-10-21, 04:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
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Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread
No doubt we will get a satisfying conclusion to Redcloak's arc. I'm just pointing out that Redcloak and the goblins are not the focus of the story any more than the Snarl is.
Redcloak already had a whole book basically about him - Start of Darkness - he's not likely to get another.
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2020-10-21, 04:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2013
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Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread
Agreed. I'm not really expecting the goblinoid plight to take center stage much more than it already has. I do predict Redcloak will get more focus than any prior books, except maybe War & XPs.
I'd argue that Redcloak & goblins already get more story focus than the Snarl, just by virtue of being present & active. The Snarl is a scary thing off in the distance, but Redcloak and his goblinoid army are real and they affect the plot much more directly.
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2020-10-21, 04:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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- Texas
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Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2020-10-21, 05:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2013
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2020-10-21, 05:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
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- Somewhere in Utah...
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2020-10-21, 05:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2013
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Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread
Ah, shoot. I made my references too obscure again, didn't I.
Last edited by Ionathus; 2020-10-21 at 05:21 PM. Reason: obscure, not oblique
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2020-10-21, 05:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread
Last edited by Jason; 2020-10-21 at 05:35 PM.
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2020-10-21, 05:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2020
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2020-10-21, 05:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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2020-10-21, 07:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-10-22, 12:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2015
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2020-10-22, 02:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2007
Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread
More than that. If I was in their place? First thing I would do would be to scout out marked passages to see if this just an isolated oops, see if there's any monsters in them, and withdraw without a fight if possible (...also, ideally, using disposable minions or summons for the scouting, this is Team Evil we're talking about). Because you don't need to send in the main party into each one, you can check them considerably faster. It wouldn't take long before they'd get a full impression of how many doors have been falsely marked.
...of course, that seems like a pretty simple and easy way to sort out this problem on Team Evil's side, which is also why I'm betting they don't get a chance to do it >_>.Last edited by Wraithfighter; 2020-10-22 at 02:03 AM.
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2020-10-22, 07:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2017
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2020-10-22, 08:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2020
Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread
Occasionally, it also contains hyper specific mind-breaking revelations about LOTR! Every couple days or so I remember when people were discussing a couple pages back the fact that Middle Earth is, like, actually flat and then suddenly became not-flat and that's just like. a reasoning for why elves can see really far like it was a normal thing and I feel like a wrinkled up dried satsuma. Ignorant to the beautiful, terrible machinations of the universe.
I draw, and I write sometimes! Drow paladin avatar by me. They/Them