OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

[Metastachydium]

As long as we have enough bone meal, you mean.

That's the good stuff! Keep it flowing!

[Riftwolf]

That part with the fox was probably written by Bilbo, so it's more in the tone of The Hobbit.

(Frodo writing up his painful and torturous ordeal)
Bilbo (over his shoulder): Put a fox in!
(Frodo, too exhausted from sting, blade and burden, writes in a fox)
Bilbo: great! And remember to include that rhyme Sam made up while you were dying!
Frodo: (winces from the wound of the Morgul blade) yes uncle...

[Jason]

According to Gygax they are

Remember that Gygax had a habit of trolling people.

[mjasghar]

Remember that Gygax had a habit of trolling people.

He put in the law and chaos axis and wasn’t happy about having good evil on top - specifically CG
That attitude continues with various depictions of CN and CG

[Worldsong]

He put in the law and chaos axis and wasn’t happy about having good evil on top - specifically CG
That attitude continues with various depictions of CN and CG

Oh don't get me started on how Chaotic Neutral/Good people got put down as second-rate again.

[danielxcutter]

Well that might explain why a lot of LN/TN/CN creatures act... weird.

[Doug Lampert]

Well that might explain why a lot of LN/TN/CN creatures act... weird.

Reading the 3.5 MM there are definitely some "WHAT" moments in the various alignment entries.

The Arrowhawk is listed as TN with a behavior pattern described that sure sounds Evil (attacks and tries to eat almost anything it meets). Similarly for Slaads and their alleged CN alignment and some Modron actions and their supposed LN. Those are all AFAIK legacy monsters where the monster is supposedly N on the Good-Evil axis because it's not supposed to care about other creatures, but 3.x, callus indifference to the welfare of others is Evil even if you DON'T actually attack anyone, and in these cases the creatures are all aggressively attacking innocents for personal reasons, blatantly over the top Evil by the 3.x standards and definitions.

Then there are the mindless undead that plainly should be TN by the rules (and were in 3.0), but then in 3.5 they morphed to NE with no change in their scores or behavior to justify it.

[Riftwolf]

Reading the 3.5 MM there are definitely some "WHAT" moments in the various alignment entries.

The Arrowhawk is listed as TN with a behavior pattern described that sure sounds Evil (attacks and tries to eat almost anything it meets). Similarly for Slaads and their alleged CN alignment and some Modron actions and their supposed LN. Those are all AFAIK legacy monsters where the monster is supposedly N on the Good-Evil axis because it's not supposed to care about other creatures, but 3.x, callus indifference to the welfare of others is Evil even if you DON'T actually attack anyone, and in these cases the creatures are all aggressively attacking innocents for personal reasons, blatantly over the top Evil by the 3.x standards and definitions.

Then there are the mindless undead that plainly should be TN by the rules (and were in 3.0), but then in 3.5 they morphed to NE with no change in their scores or behavior to justify it.

Watsonian: they're the product of intrinsically evil magic which gives them an evil aura.
Doylist: First level Paladins gotta Smite *something*.

[ebarde]

It's weird cause sometimes alignment seems to be something you do, like you get this tag as a result of consistently doing actions that fit into X category, but other times it seems to be something you are even if your behavior doesn't exactly support it. Like undead seem to be NE cause they are made out of evil stuff and came to be due to an evil aligned spell, but their behavior is honestly kinda hard to even ascribe any particular sense of morality to. And then you get to extraplanars and you just get into a whole mess over free will and whatnot, which let's be real here the alignment system was never really created to address.

[Jason]

The Arrowhawk is listed as TN with a behavior pattern described that sure sounds Evil (attacks and tries to eat almost anything it meets).

Arrowhawks are territorial and predators. But they won't needlessly prolong the pain of eating you or attack you if you're not in their territory and they're not hungry, so they're not evil.

[SlyJohnny]

I think the door they entered wasn't a "searched" dungeon, just one the MitD marked, and the gate is going to be in there. I bet you can only find the gate if you enter a dungeon and you're not searching for the gate. Xykon's been looking for the gate this whole time, but now he just went inside this dungeon on some non-gate related, search and destroy mission.

[Peelee]

I think the door they entered wasn't a "searched" dungeon, just one the MitD marked, and the gate is going to be in there. I bet you can only find the gate if you enter a dungeon and you're not searching for the gate.

Wouldnt the bugbear village have found the Gate literally every time they entered a dungeon before Xykon & Co. turned up?

Also, that's a terrible security system for something. "You can only find it if you're not looking for it, so anyone who doesn't know about it will find it immediately and it will become significantly more known."

[KorvinStarmast]

Also, that's a terrible security system for something. "You can only find it if you're not looking for it, so anyone who doesn't know about it will find it immediately and it will become significantly more known."

Yeah, but it was cheap and all that Serini could afford at the time, since we see that a few corners got cut on at least one of the gate protection schemes ...
And I still don't get this line from Girard:

Actually, I'm pretty sure that's exactly what will happen. Isn't that right, Soon?

Girard had a serious bug up his backside about Soon.

[Doug Lampert]

Watsonian: they're the product of intrinsically evil magic which gives them an evil aura.
Doylist: First level Paladins gotta Smite *something*.

They have an evil aura without the alignment, in fact, the evil aura's strength and nature is TOTALLY UNCHANGED by giving them the alignment, so it's not the Watsonian reason.

It would have been easy to add "Smite Evil works on all undead" to the power if the Doylist reason were thought through rather than messing with their definitions.

Arrowhawks are territorial and predators. But they won't needlessly prolong the pain of eating you or attack you if you're not in their territory and they're not hungry, so they're not evil.

Territorial and predator do NOT give you a pass on the alignment rules. Neither word nor any synonym occurs in any of the alignment definitions except for a statement that animals are TN. But Arrowhawks are intelligent, they don't get that pass.

"I kill an innocent sapient because I'm feeling hungry" when not in actual danger of starvation is clear cut EVIL in 3.x.

[Jason]

Territorial and predator do NOT give you a pass on the alignment rules. Neither word nor any synonym occurs in any of the alignment definitions except for a statement that animals are TN. But Arrowhawks are intelligent, they don't get that pass.

"I kill an innocent sapient because I'm feeling hungry" when not in actual danger of starvation is clear cut EVIL in 3.x.

Yeah, you're right. I was just spitballing here. They should probably be Neutral Evil.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Or we just throw Alignment in a trash skip and call it a day.

[Fyraltari]

Or we just throw Alignment in a trash skip and call it a day.

This gets my vote.

[Jason]

I find alignment useful, and I'm a grognard, so it's staying in my games. In fact, I might look to roll back some of the ways 5E made alignment less important in my games.

[rbetieh]

Or we just throw Alignment in a trash skip and call it a day.

Could we replace it with Moustache Twirler vs Cape Wearer?

[Jacky720]

Could we replace it with Moustache Twirler vs Cape Wearer?

But not all heroes wear capes.

[rbetieh]

But not all heroes wear capes.

I cant imagine one heroic DnD adventurer that wouldn't spring for a cloak of protection and thats pertty cape-like.

[Rogar Demonblud]

But what about the Monocle Polishers?

[Peelee]

But what about the Monocle Polishers?

Let's keep this PG-rated.

[Cazero]

Could we replace it with Moustache Twirler vs Cape Wearer?

But what about the Monocle Polishers?

How am I supposed to build a classy pirate who wears a cape, twirls his mustache, and wears a monocle on one eye and an eyepatch on the other under such a system?

[rbetieh]

How am I supposed to build a classy pirate who wears a cape, twirls his mustache, and wears a monocle on one eye and an eyepatch on the other under such a system?

A classy pirate? I thought all anyone ever wanted now are Jack Sparrow vs Barbosa....

[Cazero]

Nonsense. Captain Hook remains the better choice by miles.

[Fyraltari]

*Sad Long John Silver noises*

[greenfunkman]

Yeah, but it was cheap and all that Serini could afford at the time, since we see that a few corners got cut on at least one of the gate protection schemes ...
And I still don't get this line from Girard:

Actually, I'm pretty sure that's exactly what will happen. Isn't that right, Soon?

Girard had a serious bug up his backside about Soon.

I understood that line from Girard to be a prediction that Soon was going to take all the credit for the win and therefore Kraagor's sacrifice would be forgotten.

Huh, I just had a thought. If there is a planet in the rift and Kraagor got dragged in, could he still be alive in there? Laurin didn't feel any minds, but...

[Worldsong]

I think the door they entered wasn't a "searched" dungeon, just one the MitD marked, and the gate is going to be in there. I bet you can only find the gate if you enter a dungeon and you're not searching for the gate. Xykon's been looking for the gate this whole time, but now he just went inside this dungeon on some non-gate related, search and destroy mission.

Wouldnt the bugbear village have found the Gate literally every time they entered a dungeon before Xykon & Co. turned up?

Also, that's a terrible security system for something. "You can only find it if you're not looking for it, so anyone who doesn't know about it will find it immediately and it will become significantly more known."

Yeah Dumbledore's defence system was a bit odd.

Yes I know that in Dumbledore's case the defence system was 'you must must desire the McGuffin but not wish to actually use it' but it's got the same flaw that it'll lead to some random schmuck getting their hands on the McGuffin because their mindset happened to match the criteria in a way the person in charge of guarding it didn't anticipate.

Probably shouldn't design a system meant to keep something dangerous out of the wrong hands around someone's frame of mind. Or if you do at least make the actual criteria something which can't be met by someone thinking "I just want to see the McGuffin because I'm curious what it looks like."

[dancrilis]

I understood that line from Girard to be a prediction that Soon was going to take all the credit for the win and therefore Kraagor's sacrifice would be forgotten.

Less Soon taking credit and more nobody getting credit - the rifts are a secret as such any actions or sacrifice to close them is also a secret and so forgotten (except by people in the know about the secret i.e the Sapphire Guard and the Draketooth family).