OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

[Goblin_Priest]

Yeah Dumbledore's defence system was a bit odd.

Yes I know that in Dumbledore's case the defence system was 'you must must desire the McGuffin but not wish to actually use it' but it's got the same flaw that it'll lead to some random schmuck getting their hands on the McGuffin because their mindset happened to match the criteria in a way the person in charge of guarding it didn't anticipate.

Probably shouldn't design a system meant to keep something dangerous out of the wrong hands around someone's frame of mind. Or if you do at least make the actual criteria something which can't be met by someone thinking "I just want to see the McGuffin because I'm curious what it looks like."

What was he defending like this though?

[arimareiji]

Arrowhawks are territorial and predators. But they won't needlessly prolong the pain of eating you or attack you if you're not in their territory and they're not hungry, so they're not evil.

I'm torn between two directions:

• Shouldn't any "non-intelligent" animal, predator or prey, qualify as true neutral since it doesn't have the capacity for malice, benevolence, revolutionary zeal, law-abidingness, etc?
• Shouldn't any "non-intelligent" creature get a pass on alignment determination altogether?

Edited for Thai Poe.

[Jason]

I'm torn between two directions:

• Shouldn't any "non-intelligent" animal, predator or prey, qualify as true neutral since it doesn't have the capacity for malice, benevolence, revolutionary zeal, law-abidingness, etc?
• Shouldn't any "non-intelligent" creature get a pass on alignment determination altogether?

Edited for Thai Poe.

Non-Intelligent animals are True Neutral. But Arrowhawks are intelligent. They have Int 10, and the MM says "Arrowhawks speak Auran, but they are not usually talkative creatures." That would be because "They attack almost any other creature they meet, seeking a meal or trying to drive away a rival."

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Yeah Dumbledore's defence system was a bit odd.

Yes I know that in Dumbledore's case the defence system was 'you must must desire the McGuffin but not wish to actually use it' but it's got the same flaw that it'll lead to some random schmuck getting their hands on the McGuffin because their mindset happened to match the criteria in a way the person in charge of guarding it didn't anticipate.

To be fair, that was the last line of defence, behind a set of other defences that very much would turn away any random schmuck. Anyone driven enough to reach the mirror probably wanted the damn thing (or was there with permission to retrieve the stone, or was there to stop the first guy, as was the case). In fact, barring Harry's intervention, Dumbledore's trick probably would have stalled Quirrell long enough for Dumbledore to make it back in time to stop him, so I'd say the defence system worked exactly as intended.

GW

[Metastachydium]

Non-Intelligent animals are True Neutral. But Arrowhawks are intelligent. They have Int 10, and the MM says "Arrowhawks speak Auran, but they are not usually talkative creatures." That would be because "They attack almost any other creature they meet, seeking a meal or trying to drive away a rival."

Hm. I know this is usually Worldsong's job, but a good case can be made for classifying Arrowhaks as Neutral creatures.
First of all, they are
1. natural predators;
2. from an elemental plane;
3. which either fly about alone
4. or form clutches of 2 to 4 specimens at most;
5 and don't have much in the way of communication skills.
They clearly aren't social creatures, and as such they might just be incredibly bad at intention-reading (or attributing intentions that are in conflict with their interests to other creatures) which is not Evil in itself. Moreover, as outsiders they are somewhat more likely to have some manner of alien mindset than most.
Secondly, their entry says they are always hungry. What if that is indeed the case? They might have a very fast metabolism and moving all those wings must require a lot of energy. This coupled with an almost compulsive instinctual need to oversee their territory (i.e. a need to move around more than it would be absolutely necessary) might mean that they actually have to eat everything they can find or die, which for an intelligent creature might create a constant anxiety that leaves little room for moralising thoughts.

[Peelee]

To be fair, that was the last line of defence, behind a set of other defences that very much would turn away any random schmuck. Anyone driven enough to reach the mirror probably wanted the damn thing (or was there with permission to retrieve the stone, or was there to stop the first guy, as was the case). In fact, barring Harry's intervention, Dumbledore's trick probably would have stalled Quirrell long enough for Dumbledore to make it back in time to stop him, so I'd say the defence system worked exactly as intended.

GW

Spoiler: Quirrel should have gone the Zoidberg route.

Show

Also I don't even remember much from the first book/movie.

[Worldsong]

What was he defending like this though?

Philosopher's Stone in book 1. Harry could retrieve the stone from the Mirror of Erised because he wished to retrieve the stone to keep it out of Quirrel's hands, not because he wanted to use it himself.

To be fair, that was the last line of defence, behind a set of other defences that very much would turn away any random schmuck. Anyone driven enough to reach the mirror probably wanted the damn thing (or was there with permission to retrieve the stone, or was there to stop the first guy, as was the case). In fact, barring Harry's intervention, Dumbledore's trick probably would have stalled Quirrell long enough for Dumbledore to make it back in time to stop him, so I'd say the defence system worked exactly as intended.

GW

The other defences turning away random schmucks is debatable. It works for a children's book but beyond that it's all a bit silly.

HPMOR specifically goes into a bit of a tangent about how a proper defence system should not include puzzles or challenges. It should require passwords and keys. In that sense Dumbledore still managed to achieve the minimum requirements by having the criteria for obtaining the Stone be the password 'I want to obtain the stone but I don't want to use it' but he fell for the much more common pitfall of picking a password that an outsider could accidentally guess.

It mostly worked with Quirrel because Voldemort is so selfishly stupid it hurts. Then again that kind of tied into the series's overarching moral that selfishness is bad for your mental faculties.

But if you put that kind of defence in front of Team Evil MitD would breach it almost immediately.

Hm. I know this is usually Worldsong's job, but a good case can be made for classifying Arrowhaks as Neutral creatures.
First of all, they are
1. natural predators;
2. from an elemental plane;
3. which either fly about alone
4. or form clutches of 2 to 4 specimens at most;
5 and don't have much in the way of communication skills.
They clearly aren't social creatures, and as such they might just be incredibly bad at intention-reading (or attributing intentions that are in conflict with their interests to other creatures) which is not Evil in itself. Moreover, as outsiders they are somewhat more likely to have some manner of alien mindset than most.
Secondly, their entry says they are always hungry. What if that is indeed the case? They might have a very fast metabolism and moving all those wings must require a lot of energy. This coupled with an almost compulsive instinctual need to oversee their territory (i.e. a need to move around more than it would be absolutely necessary) might mean that they actually have to eat everything they can find or die, which for an intelligent creature might create a constant anxiety that leaves little room for moralising thoughts.

Eh, by this point I've just accepted that people aren't inclined towards being more lenient towards eating sapients. Knock yourself out.

EDIT:

Spoiler: Quirrel should have gone the Zoidberg route.

Show

Also I don't even remember much from the first book/movie.

Personally I'd encourage people to read HPMOR, a fanfiction/AU of the first book. Of course while it focuses on an alternate take to the first book it's about as big as the first five books of the official series combined.

[danielxcutter]

It mostly worked with Quirrel because Voldemort is so selfishly stupid it hurts. Then again that kind of tied into the series's overarching moral that selfishness is bad for your mental faculties.

Plus Dumbledore knew Voldy was looking for it and virtually nobody outside the staff was aware the Stone was even in the castle.

But if you put that kind of defence in front of Team Evil MitD would breach it almost immediately.

Ten points from Ravenclaw; the MitD is unlikely to have pockets.

[Riftwolf]

Less Soon taking credit and more nobody getting credit - the rifts are a secret as such any actions or sacrifice to close them is also a secret and so forgotten (except by people in the know about the secret i.e the Sapphire Guard and the Draketooth family).

My initial reading was Kraagors sacrifice couldn't be spoken of publicly, so would be forgotten. However, now we know Girard at least didn't trust Soon (and seems to blame Soon for Kraagors death, to the point of wishing Soon had taken his place), it could've been signposting for Girards feud with Soon (which must go beyond spiteful words in grief)
We won't know till Serini is found, as every other person who'd know, or could be told (eg. Girards Friendly Family Death Cult) has been removed from the story.

[Peelee]

Personally I'd encourage people to read HPMOR, a fanfiction/AU of the first book. Of course while it focuses on an alternate take to the first book it's about as big as the first five books of the official series combined.

I heard a little about it and it greatly intrigued me. Then I heard more about it and my intrigue greatly waned.

The ride was pretty great all around, though.

[Riftwolf]

Spoiler: Quirrel should have gone the Zoidberg route.

Show

Also I don't even remember much from the first book/movie.

Harry Potters set in the UK, not US, and in one of the posher parts of the country. The only one in Hogwarts likely to have a gun licence is Hagrid, and he seems the type to keep it locked away till needed (ie not easy to steal)

[Peelee]

Harry Potters set in the UK, not US, and in one of the posher parts of the country.

Zoidberg wasnt in the US there either. Also, i hear everyone and their mum is packing over there. Especially in the posh parts - how do you expect me to believe that Harry's parents went skeet shooting every fortnight without a gun?

[bunsen_h]

I heard a little about it and it greatly intrigued me. Then I heard more about it and my intrigue greatly waned.

The ride was pretty great all around, though.

For what it's worth, I enjoyed it.

EDIT: While it obviously is a work of homage to the original, it gets in some lovely digs at some of the sillier aspects. "And talk about your foregone conclusions. Harry didn’t see why Hermione had been so tense about it. In what weird alternative universe would that girl not be Sorted into Ravenclaw? If Hermione Granger didn’t go to Ravenclaw then there was no good reason for Ravenclaw House to exist."

[Doug Lampert]

Hm. I know this is usually Worldsong's job, but a good case can be made for classifying Arrowhaks as Neutral creatures.
First of all, they are
1. natural predators;
2. from an elemental plane;
3. which either fly about alone
4. or form clutches of 2 to 4 specimens at most;
5 and don't have much in the way of communication skills.
They clearly aren't social creatures, and as such they might just be incredibly bad at intention-reading (or attributing intentions that are in conflict with their interests to other creatures) which is not Evil in itself. Moreover, as outsiders they are somewhat more likely to have some manner of alien mindset than most.
Secondly, their entry says they are always hungry. What if that is indeed the case? They might have a very fast metabolism and moving all those wings must require a lot of energy. This coupled with an almost compulsive instinctual need to oversee their territory (i.e. a need to move around more than it would be absolutely necessary) might mean that they actually have to eat everything they can find or die, which for an intelligent creature might create a constant anxiety that leaves little room for moralising thoughts.

1) They are intelligent.
2) So what?
3&4) Again so what? They are capable of forming groups, they simply choose not to.
5) They have fine communications skills, equal to a human say, who ALSO defaults to 10 int and only 1 native language.

Callus disregard for the welfare of others is explicitly EVIL in 3.5, deliberately trying to eat every sapient you meet is VASTLY worse than that.

And they may constantly be hungry, but they are not constantly starving to death, they simply don't ever fill up. One that has JUST eaten will still attack and try to kill anything it meets, you can't befriend one by giving it meat, and they are "territorial" on the elemental plane of air, which has no landmarks to speak of, so as they wander their territory is ANYPLACE they happen to be now. They are over the top evil, far worse than chromatic dragons.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

HPMOR

Say no more. Not because I consider HPMOR in any way a valid argument, but because I do not.

It should require passwords and keys.

It did.

GW

[Metastachydium]

2) So what?
3&4) Again so what? They are capable of forming groups, they simply choose not to.
5) They have fine communications skills, equal to a human say, who ALSO defaults to 10 int and only 1 native language.

„They clearly aren't social creatures, and as such they might just be incredibly bad at intention-reading (or attributing intentions that are in conflict with their interests to other creatures) which is not Evil in itself. Moreover, as outsiders they are somewhat more likely to have some manner of alien mindset than most.”

Callus disregard for the welfare of others is explicitly EVIL in 3.5, deliberately trying to eat every sapient you meet is VASTLY worse than that.

How do you try to eat every sapient creature you meet in a fashion that is not deliberate? (Also, inability to understand that other creatures do mind getting eaten due to their socialization (or lack thereof) is not the same thing as callous disredgard for the welfare of others.)

And they may constantly be hungry, but they are not constantly starving to death, they simply don't ever fill up.

How do we know they they don't need to eat constantly if they are to stay strong enough not to die (via becoming incapable of moving/hunting or the like)?

They are over the top evil, far worse than chromatic dragons.

Arguably, chromatic dragons are also Neutral, if not Good.
(Further, please note that I'm only doing what I'm doing here, because at the end of the day arrowhawks are basically big, funny birds (that fart lighting) and I like birds.)

[Thermophille]

HPMOR does what it does fine, providing a commentary of the original work and its flaws.

However, it has quite a few problems of its own, with the writer's desire to make points about the original work and present their ideology impeding their ability to write a cohesive and satisfying story. All in all, I'd say it has about as many flaws as the original Harry Potter story, just in very different areas.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

HPMOR does what it does fine, providing a commentary of the original work and its flaws.

No, it doesn't, because it changes the original work so much it fails to comment on it. It invents its own rules for the setting that turn out to conflict with the original canon, then points at the ways in which it fails to match the canon and calls that flaws to the canon, instead of noticing the problem is on its own rules that it imposed unilaterally to the canon.

For example, this (h/t bunsen_h):
"Harry didn’t see why Hermione had been so tense about it. In what weird alternative universe would that girl not be Sorted into Ravenclaw? If Hermione Granger didn’t go to Ravenclaw then there was no good reason for Ravenclaw House to exist."

The HPMOR author didn't understand how sorting worked, decided it knew the rules better than the canon, and then complains that the canon doesn't match his rules. Whatever this is (and I could give it a number of less-than-stellar adjectives), it is not a commentary on the canon.

But I've been through this song-and-dance before, it never ends well, and so with this clarification of where I stand, I am withdrawing from this conversation before it becomes a row.

Grey Wolf

[bunsen_h]

For example, this (h/t bunsen_h):
"Harry didn’t see why Hermione had been so tense about it. In what weird alternative universe would that girl not be Sorted into Ravenclaw? If Hermione Granger didn’t go to Ravenclaw then there was no good reason for Ravenclaw House to exist."

The HPMOR author didn't understand how sorting worked, decided it knew the rules better than the canon, and then complains that the canon doesn't match his rules. Whatever this is (and I could give it a number of less-than-stellar adjectives), it is not a commentary on the canon.

Please note that the HPMOR Hermione is desperate to be sorted into Ravenclaw and ends up there, just as the original Hermione desperately wants to go into Gryffindor and ends up there. The Sorting works as it should -- consistently -- in both cases, and the author isn't critiquiing the Sorting, but that the original Hermione is leaning towards Gryffindor in the first place.

But I've been through this song-and-dance before, it never ends well, and so with this clarification of where I stand, I am withdrawing from this conversation before it becomes a row.

As you wish.

[Peelee]

There's plenty to knock in bog-standard Harry Potter. Like how Slytherin should embody ambition (which is not a bad trait) but is consistently portrayed as Robot House Evil House.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Philosopher's Stone in book 1. Harry could retrieve the stone from the Mirror of Erised because he wished to retrieve the stone to keep it out of Quirrel's hands, not because he wanted to use it himself.

Of course, this means that any random Death Eater who wanted the Philosopher's Stone to give to somebody else (like Voldemort) could get it, since they don't want to use it themselves. This realization courtesy of my then 7 year old.

The whole system is a joke, although to be fair the series is set in the 90s, when computer-type security was much less of a thing people thought about.

[KorvinStarmast]

The whole system is a joke

If you refer to the general case of Rowling's world building, I concur.
Back to the Order there is a time constraint on Durkon's and Minrah's current fleeing activity. Dwarfs are not known for their speed so whatever delay/diversion that door/tunnel/silenced worg presents will maybe be sufficient to cover their escape or a second, more nuanced, hiding attempt. In either case, they seem to have the breathing space to, in hockey terms, make like the goalie and get the puck outta there!

I predict a scene shift in 1218 to either:

Roy and the rest of the Order
or
Xykon, Redcloak, and Oona mixing it up with some big and dangerous creature.

[ebarde]

The whole housing system makes very little sense yeah, I guess Slytherin is full of evil people cause only the worst of the worst would really deeply wish to be in the one house named after a dude that killed a bunch of students. So the same way Harry wishes to be in Gryffindor, everyone that's just the worst wants to be in Slytherin, and then the not so evil people just sorta get roped into doing bad stuff due to peer pressure from their housemates and goes down that slippery slope.

But honestly after a while, you'd think school administration would at least try to fix the house that seems to be a breeding ground for just the worst most evil wizards ever lol

[Jason]

You do all realize that Harry Potter is a kid's series, right? The worldbuilding is supposed to be whimsical and evocative, not rigidly consistent. Like Star Wars.

[ebarde]

Tbh I'd hardly call Star Wars' worldbuilding rigid or consistent, which is understandable considering it's a decades old franchise that goes through the hands of various creators and corporate holders.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Tbh I'd hardly call Star Wars' worldbuilding rigid or consistent, which is understandable considering it's a decades old franchise that goes through the hands of various creators and corporate holders.

Star wars' world building was inconsistent between its first and second films, before anyone but Lucas got its hands on it.

GW

[Goblin_Priest]

Star wars' world building was inconsistent between its first and second films, before anyone but Lucas got its hands on it.

GW

My biggest gripe with the original trilogy, is when they jump down the garbage chute in the original movie, and... nobody comes looking for them.

I mean... REALLY?

There's no way they should have been able to escape the Death Star once detected.

[Worldsong]

Plus Dumbledore knew Voldy was looking for it and virtually nobody outside the staff was aware the Stone was even in the castle.

True but at the same time I don't want to grant points to a security system which only works because the villain most likely to try and breach it is known to be kind of dumb.

Ten points from Ravenclaw; the MitD is unlikely to have pockets.

You don't know what's under that umbrella.

I heard a little about it and it greatly intrigued me. Then I heard more about it and my intrigue greatly waned.

The ride was pretty great all around, though.

It's definitely not a perfect story, and as Grey Wolf has already pointed out at times it gets ahead of itself, but personally I found it an enjoyable read. Possibly because my focus wasn't on how it criticized the original.

Spoiler: HPMOR

Show

Personally one of my biggest gripes was about how, once Harry had figured out that in the HPMOR-verse dementors are manifestations of death rather than depression, he began to draw conclusions which didn't immediately result from that revelation. Such as that apparently Dementors don't have their own intelligence. Not sure how that is the immediate, logical and unavoidable conclusion drawn from dementors being Death.

But yeah overall things tend to work out a bit too neatly for Harry with him drawing assumptions which really require more empirical evidence.

It did.

GW

Four of the six defences Harry and co faced turned out to be challenges where prior knowledge might be helpful but which a complete stranger could realistically solve with a bit of effort. Arguably three if you count the devil snare as requiring the password of 'don't move and it'll let you pass through' although given that Hermione actually knew that one apparently the behaviour of devil snares is well documented, at least the part where it relaxes if you don't struggle.

There's plenty to knock in bog-standard Harry Potter. Like how Slytherin should embody ambition (which is not a bad trait) but is consistently portrayed as Robot House Evil House.

True. I'm guessing Rowling was trying to find some kind of trait which could be seen as a virtue while still allowing for villains but honestly Slytherin just got shafted.

Of course, this means that any random Death Eater who wanted the Philosopher's Stone to give to somebody else (like Voldemort) could get it, since they don't want to use it themselves. This realization courtesy of my then 7 year old.

The whole system is a joke, although to be fair the series is set in the 90s, when computer-type security was much less of a thing people thought about.

Yeah, pretty much. There's a good bunch of motivations one might have for wanting the stone without wishing to use it. The simplest one being "I don't know what it does but I know that it's valuable."

If complete ignorance on the side of the intruder actually works in their favour that's automatically a failure in the security.

You do all realize that Harry Potter is a kid's series, right? The worldbuilding is supposed to be whimsical and evocative, not rigidly consistent. Like Star Wars.

I'm aware, I mostly brought it up because someone suggested a similar security system for Kraagor's Gate and it was the first comparison I could think of.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Four of the six defences Harry and co faced turned out to be challenges where prior knowledge might be helpful but which a complete stranger could realistically solve with a bit of effort. Arguably three if you count the devil snare as requiring the password of 'don't move and it'll let you pass through' although given that Hermione actually knew that one apparently the behaviour of devil snares is well documented, at least the part where it relaxes if you don't struggle.

Errr... you seem to be referring to the movie. In the books, the devil's snare is defeated by heat (i.e. conjuring skill plus obscure botanical knowledge - that Hermione knows about it is no indication that this is at all common knowledge; just because you learnt, I don't know, the name of the rivers in your country in geography when you were 11 doesn't mean you'll remember which one is the 15th longest when you've been out of school for twenty years, and even less so if the test was only about the top 10, and it's only the girl who memorises all the textbooks before school starts that even bothered to learn the rhyme about it).

In any case, that trial is followed by a chess game, followed by an athletic trial, followed by a logic puzzle, followed by a straight brute force fight. And by key and password, I was referring to the actual locked door and the musical password required to even approach the trials. All in all, it covers a very wide range of skills, rather than depend on a single defence mechanism, making it a more secure than your "they should just do X" suggestion, since they in fact did do that, as well as everything else.

GW

[danielxcutter]

To be honest it’s less a replacement for keys and passwords and more like guards and walls.