OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

[Worldsong]

Errr... you seem to be referring to the movie. In the books, the devil's snare is defeated by heat (i.e. conjuring skill plus botanical knowledge). This trial is followed by a chess game, followed by an athletic trial, followed by a logic puzzle, followed by a straight brute force fight. And by key and password, I was referring to the actual locked door and the musical password required to even approach the trials. All in all, it covers a very wide range of skills, rather than depend on a single defence mechanism, all in all makes it a more secure than your "they should just do X" suggestion, which they in fact did do.

GW

I'll admit I was basing my knowledge off of the movies. That said neither creating heat nor knowing how devil snares behave is in the list of obscure pieces of knowledge, given that from what I remember they never received a hint about the devil snare (unlike the big dog) and Hermione just happened to have that piece of botany knowledge.

That said none of those things are proper security measures because they still revolve around testing whether someone is competent.

And yes I actually believe Hagrid's security system was the closest to being a good idea because his idea was to just put a big scary monster in front of the thing you want to keep safe with an obscure method for placating it which the average wizard might not know about (depends on how much they share their mythology with the muggles). Although even then an educated mudblood would be cause for concern.

The locked door and the key actually is a particularly amazing example of poor decision making since it included a locked door and a key while completely violating the entire point of having these things. With a locked door only someone with the key can get in and the key(s) is/are possessed by people who are allowed to get in. Instead somebody at least considered a lock and a key but then, rather than just giving a matching key to verified individuals, made the key just fly out in the open for anyone to grab if they were any good at flying a broomstick.

If your security system is designed around testing whether the intruder possesses a wide range of skills you've already failed because the core idea is flawed. Not like the thief deserves to steal your stuff because they've proven themselves to be competent.

However I shall rephrase myself for enhanced clarity:

A good security system should include passwords which outsiders should neither be able to guess intentionally or unintentionally, and keys which only people who should be able to go inside possess, not keys which are out there in the open and which can be grabbed by anyone who's proven themselves to exceed a certain bar of competency.

[Wraithfighter]

My biggest gripe with the original trilogy, is when they jump down the garbage chute in the original movie, and... nobody comes looking for them.

I mean... REALLY?

There's no way they should have been able to escape the Death Star once detected.

Unless the Vader and Tarkin wanted them to escape.

Which they did.

Because they wanted to track the Falcon back to the rebel's hideout.

...which they did.

Like, this is "in the text of the film" level stuff, they say it outright. They just wanted the escape to feel real to the heroes (most of whom believe it), so they had to put up a good-enough fight. And if a few dozen Stormtroopers get killed, eh, who cares, it's the Evil Empire, they've got replacements and no one dare complains to HR.

[Kornaki]

Unless the Vader and Tarkin wanted them to escape.

Which they did.

Because they wanted to track the Falcon back to the rebel's hideout.

...which they did.

Like, this is "in the text of the film" level stuff, they say it outright. They just wanted the escape to feel real to the heroes (most of whom believe it), so they had to put up a good-enough fight. And if a few dozen Stormtroopers get killed, eh, who cares, it's the Evil Empire, they've got replacements and no one dare complains to HR.

My mental model is that the death star is a self parody of evil bases. After they jump into the garbage chute the following conversation happens:

Rookie: shouldn't we chase them?
Veteran: ehhh let em go. There will be plenty of heroes for us to catch later.
Rookie: what? How often does this happen?
Veteran: you'd be surprised. Let me tell you about the time a dozen dryads jumped out of a potted fern.

[Jason]

Tbh I'd hardly call Star Wars' worldbuilding rigid or consistent, which is understandable considering it's a decades old franchise that goes through the hands of various creators and corporate holders.

You misunderstand me. I was saying that Harry Potter and Star Wars are alike in that both are kids' series where the world building is intended to be whimsical and evocative rather than rigidly consistent.

[Peelee]

You do all realize that Harry Potter is a kid's series, right? The worldbuilding is supposed to be whimsical and evocative, not rigidly consistent.

Avatar: The Last Airbender says "hi."

[ebarde]

To be fair even Avatar got a bit messy worldbuilding wise once Korra came about. But yeah, Last Airbender was pretty consistent overall and honestly even the whole taking away Ozai's bending thing isn't something I particularly have any problem with.

[tanonev]

Of course, this means that any random Death Eater who wanted the Philosopher's Stone to give to somebody else (like Voldemort) could get it, since they don't want to use it themselves. This realization courtesy of my then 7 year old.

The whole system is a joke, although to be fair the series is set in the 90s, when computer-type security was much less of a thing people thought about.

Quirrell literally attempted to do that and it didn't work:

I see the stone, I'm presenting it to my master but where is it?

"Giving" counts as a use.

[Worldsong]

To be fair even Avatar got a bit messy worldbuilding wise once Korra came about. But yeah, Last Airbender was pretty consistent overall and honestly even the whole taking away Ozai's bending thing isn't something I particularly have any problem with.

I just wish they'd spend more time building up to the energy bending thing. While definitely interesting it kind of felt like with the studio having to wrap things up in three seasons instead of four at the end they just threw the lion turtle at Aang.

Quirrell literally attempted to do that and it didn't work:

"Giving" counts as a use.

So far as I'm aware the requirement to obtain the Stone was to have a desire to find it without wanting to actually use it, so I agree it's kind of odd it didn't work for Quirrel.

The best I can think of is that since Voldemort had possessed him they kind of counted as being the same person, and Voldemort definitely wanted to use it.

[danielxcutter]

Perhaps "not wanting to use it" meant "doesn't give a crap about actually using it whatsoever".

[Worldsong]

Perhaps "not wanting to use it" meant "doesn't give a crap about actually using it whatsoever".

Very much possible.

Honestly I suspect that this might also just be the point where the fact that it's a children's book which isn't supposed to be analyzed too closely makes attempts at analyzing it fall apart. As Yahtzee would say Quirrell can't get the Stone because he's the villain and Harry can get the Stone because he's the hero.

Although Yahtzee would probably include some metaphor referencing bollocks.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

To be fair even Avatar got a bit messy worldbuilding wise once Korra came about. But yeah, Last Airbender was pretty consistent overall and honestly even the whole taking away Ozai's bending thing isn't something I particularly have any problem with.

Even in the original three seasons there is worldbuilding-as-we-go-along in evidence: from the trivial (animals aren't all hybrids until the very end of season one, but in season two they make the joke about "just a bear?") to the profound (the spirit world is inconsistent throughout).

Like Jason said, the world building is supposed to be whimsical and evocative, not rigidly consistent. I could go philosophical and claim something about mirroring the growth in understanding of a child as they grow and discover their world... but honestly, I think it is simpler than that: it makes for better stories that the author can grow the world as needed.

Grey Wolf

[Goblin_Priest]

Unless the Vader and Tarkin wanted them to escape.

Which they did.

Because they wanted to track the Falcon back to the rebel's hideout.

...which they did.

Like, this is "in the text of the film" level stuff, they say it outright. They just wanted the escape to feel real to the heroes (most of whom believe it), so they had to put up a good-enough fight. And if a few dozen Stormtroopers get killed, eh, who cares, it's the Evil Empire, they've got replacements and no one dare complains to HR.

I feel like that's an in-movie retcon, though. Now, I'd have to rewatch the movie again to get the timeline straight because my memory of it isn't super clear, but when Vader "lets them go", that's way later, when they get back on the Falcon and escape. By then, the identity of the heroes are known, and a plan to make use of their presence was devised.

It feels quite unlikely to me that, the moment the Falcon was detected, the imperials decided "Oh hell yea, let's use this ship to find the rebels' home base!" At that moment, there was no indication that the ship was rebel-affiliated. And, really, it wasn't. Luke just wanted to pork the pretty damsel in distress. Han just wanted the reward to pay off his debts to Jabba. There's Obi-Wan, but he's not really within the rebel alliance, he's doing his own thing of guiding Luke to become a jedi.

So, at what point was the plan to let them escape devised? He couldn't really know they were coming for the princess, until they freed her. And the only presence he was aware about, Obi-Wan's, wasn't actively out to go get the princess, he was off to sabotage the Death Star to enable the Falcon's escape.

If you want to tell me it was ALL according to plan, then you are suggesting the following scenario:

The Death Star pulls the Falcon in. Vader senses Obi-Wan, and immediately knows they are coming for the princess. He orders that every part of the ship be scanned to find the crew, but really hops the stormtroopers fail. He then keeps guards up everywhere the heroes would need to go, hoping they fail to spot anyone. He then hopes that the heroes will be able to find both the prison cell for Leia and the location of the switches for the tractor beams. Which are hard and dangerous to access, by the way, so he hopes that they manage to reach these switches safely, in a timely fashion, and without getting detected. Also, this death star is HUGE (moon sized), but conveniently the heroes don't need to walk months to get where they need to, and never get lost along the way (knowing a cell number is one thing, knowing how to get there...?). The Imperials will know to react to some triggers (the fight in the prison) but to completely ignore other triggers (the de-powering of the tractor beams). They will then send men to pursue the heroes, but, you know, not too much. And they'll let them escape at the first opportunity. But then, as they are in the chute, and the imperials should fully know this, they won't actually save the heroes from getting compressed into death...? Because they want them to escape and are making it easy on them... but at the same time, if they just die to the trash compactor, that's not worth doing anything about? And they wanted the heroes to believe they weren't being given breaks, so the most logical way to do this is to send men after them, but not actually chase once they change rooms? Couldn't they have just, you know, ignored the prison disturbance altogether? If they somehow knew that they were going for Leia? After that, they pursue them to a chasm, but really they were hoping for them to have the right tools to jump it? All while shooting close enough to scare them without ever hitting them? And then, knowing they'll escape, they had a ton of stormtroopers go into the hangar room anyways?

This is some Nale-level planning. This makes even less sense than just handwaving it as the stormtroopers merely going "hah, they went in the garbage chute? let's just activate the compactor and move on to other stuff". Which strains suspension of disbelief, but much less than "it was the plan all along".

After writing this, I've stumbled across a few more lines suggeting Vader might indeed have been planning a lot of this since their arrival... but... man. Tarquin would not approve of all these moving parts.

[Fyraltari]

I feel like that's an in-movie retcon, though. Now, I'd have to rewatch the movie again to get the timeline straight because my memory of it isn't super clear, but when Vader "lets them go", that's way later, when they get back on the Falcon and escape. By then, the identity of the heroes are known, and a plan to make use of their presence was devised.

It feels quite unlikely to me that, the moment the Falcon was detected, the imperials decided "Oh hell yea, let's use this ship to find the rebels' home base!" At that moment, there was no indication that the ship was rebel-affiliated.

It was always my assumption that the troopers who failed to stop the Falcon from taking off in Tatooine reported to Vader so the ship was recognized when it reached the Death Star.

[Goblin_Priest]

It was always my assumption that the troopers who failed to stop the Falcon from taking off in Tatooine reported to Vader so the ship was recognized when it reached the Death Star.

According to a few lines which I utterly did not remember, yea, Vader is informed that the ship matches the one that escaped.

So maybe "it was all a ruse" is meant to be accurate. But... I really dislike that explanation, because very little of everything that happens is suggestive of it being a ruse. There are way too many times where the heroes could have failed.

My head canon was always more along the lines of "we want to capture them, but we put a tracking device onboard in case we failed at that". The "we planned on letting them escape from the moment they arrived" explanation is just too hard to go along with.

[Fyraltari]

According to a few lines which I utterly did not remember, yea, Vader is informed that the ship matches the one that escaped.

So maybe "it was all a ruse" is meant to be accurate. But... I really dislike that explanation, because very little of everything that happens is suggestive of it being a ruse. There are way too many times where the heroes could have failed.

Well, it's not like they had time to rehearse. The orders were probably not to try really hard to stop them but make it somewhat convincing, so the best troops of the Empire suddenly can't shoot straight, flee before one man, don't pursue down a garbage chute and so on.

[dancrilis]

According to a few lines which I utterly did not remember, yea, Vader is informed that the ship matches the one that escaped.

So maybe "it was all a ruse" is meant to be accurate. But... I really dislike that explanation, because very little of everything that happens is suggestive of it being a ruse. There are way too many times where the heroes could have failed.

My head canon was always more along the lines of "we want to capture them, but we put a tracking device onboard in case we failed at that". The "we planned on letting them escape from the moment they arrived" explanation is just too hard to go along with.

Vader wanted to find the resistance base, Tarkin considered it an 'awful risk' to let them go.

So from Tarkin's prespective if they escaped fine but if they died no big deal - so it is possible that some of the stormtroopers were actively trying to stop them not having been informed of the plans of senior management.

[KorvinStarmast]

- so it is possible that some of the stormtroopers were actively trying to stop them not having been informed of the plans of senior management.

Wait, someone didn't get the memo? That never happens.

[danielxcutter]

Very much possible.

Honestly I suspect that this might also just be the point where the fact that it's a children's book which isn't supposed to be analyzed too closely makes attempts at analyzing it fall apart. As Yahtzee would say Quirrell can't get the Stone because he's the villain and Harry can get the Stone because he's the hero.

To be fair, considering what magic can do in that setting it's not entirely impossible for the magic literally doing something like that.

Although Yahtzee would probably include some metaphor referencing bollocks.

Also yes, absolutely this. Well, not just that, but I'm moderately surprised that the mere mention of him didn't retroactively ban your account considering the language he typically uses in Zero Punctuation.

[Peelee]

I feel like that's an in-movie retcon, though. Now, I'd have to rewatch the movie again to get the timeline straight because my memory of it isn't super clear, but when Vader "lets them go", that's way later, when they get back on the Falcon and escape. By then, the identity of the heroes are known, and a plan to make use of their presence was devised.

It feels quite unlikely to me that, the moment the Falcon was detected, the imperials decided "Oh hell yea, let's use this ship to find the rebels' home base!" At that moment, there was no indication that the ship was rebel-affiliated. And, really, it wasn't. Luke just wanted to pork the pretty damsel in distress. Han just wanted the reward to pay off his debts to Jabba. There's Obi-Wan, but he's not really within the rebel alliance, he's doing his own thing of guiding Luke to become a jedi.

So, at what point was the plan to let them escape devised?

I'd say when Vader realized they were after Leia. Nothing beforehand really stretched imagination, especially since they had a Jedi with them most of that time.

Which would be around the garbage chute time.

[bunsen_h]

I'd say when Vader realized they were after Leia. Nothing beforehand really stretched imagination, especially since they had a Jedi with them most of that time.

Which would be around the garbage chute time.

Tarkin: Vader, this place is the size of a small moon. You figure they're just going to waltz in, find her, and traipse out again?

Vader: Oh yes. We might have to give them a hint or two, but the Force will provide.

[Peelee]

Tarkin: Vader, this place is the size of a small moon. You figure they're just going to waltz in, find her, and traipse out again?

Vader: Oh yes. We might have to give them a hint or two, but the Force will provide.

Imean, the front of my car is pretty big but I can't go hide in it because of the engine. Just because the Death Star is the size of a small moon doesn't mean that its 100% hollow except for walls and floors/ceilings.

And it's not like the Imperials didn't openly know that the intruders had gotten into a control room with maps and schematics.

[Jason]

The biggest problem with the "it was all Vader's plan from the start to make it look like they escaped" idea is that there doesn't seem to be any reason why "just capture them immediately and then interrogate them all at your leisure" plan wouldn't work better. It would mean no risk of having your valuable prisoners accidentally being shot by your own troops, or eaten by a garbage monster, or falling down an air shaft.

The second biggest problem is that Leia realizes they were let go, and then leads them directly to the rebel base anyway. Why didn't they stop somewhere and get rid of the tracking device, or drop off R2 and deliver the plans without using the Falcon, or stop and make hundreds of copies of the plans and send them all to the rebels by different routes and agents, or post them on the galactic internet where anyone could download them?

EDIT: I know they didn't have an internet in '77. I remember life before the internet because I was there.

[Rogar Demonblud]

If the Death Star was like any number of factories I've been to, 98% of the structure is not a place outsiders will go. You have the public entry, reception and some offices, including the security office, all clustered together. So I have no trouble believing everything the heroes need is in very close proximity to each other.

[pendell]

Imean, the front of my car is pretty big but I can't go hide in it because of the engine. Just because the Death Star is the size of a small moon doesn't mean that its 100% hollow except for walls and floors/ceilings.

And it's not like the Imperials didn't openly know that the intruders had gotten into a control room with maps and schematics.

My own thought is that the bulk of the Death Star's mass is taken up with the hypermatter reactor and related systems, with only 10% or so of the space being habitable. But even 10% of a moon is still a lot of places to hide.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Worldsong]

To be fair, considering what magic can do in that setting it's not entirely impossible for the magic literally doing something like that.

Also yes, absolutely this. Well, not just that, but I'm moderately surprised that the mere mention of him didn't retroactively ban your account considering the language he typically uses in Zero Punctuation.

And this makes me think of his complaint that the Fable series is essentially racist because the protagonist of every game is recognized as the hero in-universe because of their lineage.

"Yeah this spell recognizes the hero of the story and gives them the Stone and everyone else can go buzz right off."
"Okay... What if someone else who isn't the hero but still is on the right side tries to obtain the Stone?"
"Pffft, as if anyone other than the hero can do anything important."

The biggest problem with the "it was all Vader's plan from the start to make it look like they escaped" idea is that there doesn't seem to be any reason why "just capture them immediately and then interrogate them all at your leisure" plan wouldn't work better. It would mean no risk of having your valuable prisoners accidentally being shot by your own troops, or eaten by a garbage monster, or falling down an air shaft.

Probably not the reason used inside the movie but from what I understand interrogation isn't actually very reliable. It makes people want to tell you what they think you want to hear, which is often not the same as the truth because when people say they want to know the truth what they usually actually mean is that they want their preconceptions confirmed.

[Peelee]

The biggest problem with the "it was all Vader's plan from the start to make it look like they escaped" idea is that there doesn't seem to be any reason why "just capture them immediately and then interrogate them all at your leisure" plan wouldn't work better.

...but they did? They show Vader beginning the questioning/torture. Vader and Tarkin later discuss how it didn't work. That was a plot point.

[Jason]

...but they did? They show Vader beginning the questioning/torture. Vader and Tarkin later discuss how it didn't work. That was a plot point.

Vader says "her resistance to the mind probe is considerable. It will be some time before we can extract any information from her."
So Vader felt it didn't fail, he just needed more time. Then Tarkin tries his method and does gets a lie, and then in a fit of pique decides to "terminate her. Immediatly" which apparently doesn't mean "right now" because she's still waiting in her cell when Luke arrives.
Since Tarkin was willing to throw Leia away completely after one atrrempt at getting the location from her it doesn't seem like finding the rebel base really is his highest priority.

[Petrocorus]

I'd say when Vader realized they were after Leia. Nothing beforehand really stretched imagination, especially since they had a Jedi with them most of that time.

This.
Once Vader understand the Falcon's crew want Leia, he has everything to form his plan. He doesn't need to know anything about the crew, he's already sure Leia is with the Resistance, so he can assume they are or close enough.
Not to mention he does sense Obi-Wan through the Force at some point. A bit later i think.

The second biggest problem is that Leia realizes they were let go, and then leads them directly to the rebel base anyway. Why didn't they stop somewhere and get rid of the tracking device, or drop off R2 and deliver the plans without using the Falcon, or stop and make hundreds of copies of the plans and send them all to the rebels by different routes and agents, or post them on the galactic internet where anyone could download them?

This is the one things that has always bugged me about it. That may be explained in a cut scene (the movie was heavily edited) but Leia indeed has every reason not to go straight to Yavin.

Vader says "her resistance to the mind probe is considerable. It will be some time before we can extract any information from her."
So Vader felt it didn't fail, he just needed more time. Then Tarkin tries his method and does gets a lie, and then in a fit of pique decides to "terminate her. Immediatly" which apparently doesn't mean "right now" because she's still waiting in her cell when Luke arrives.
Since Tarkin was willing to throw Leia away completely after one atrrempt at getting the location from her it doesn't seem like finding the rebel base really is his highest priority.

Or more that he was sure she'd never break and give them anything useful.

[pendell]

Probably not the reason used inside the movie but from what I understand interrogation isn't actually very reliable. It makes people want to tell you what they think you want to hear, which is often not the same as the truth because when people say they want to know the truth what they usually actually mean is that they want their preconceptions confirmed.

Star Wars interrogations are different from the real world; My understanding from EU material is that the ultimate goal of interrogation by Darth Vader is to get to the point where Vader can read the subject's mind, just as he read Luke's mind in Return of the Jedi. Those strong in the Force and with a strong will can resist this intrusion. Thus the introduction of torture and drugs and all sorts of other things, not to force Leia to talk, but to break down her mental resistance to the point where she could either be mind-read or Mind Tricked into telling what she knew.

My guess is that a typical Vader interrogation consists of him simply using a Jedi Mind Trick to cause the victim tell everything they know, then kill them once they've been drained of all useful information. That wouldn't work on Leia, not only because of her strong will but also because of her strength in the Force. Hence the use of torture.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Goblin_Priest]

I was rather annoyed by that scene, but all of the explanations just makes it worse, really.

Imean, the front of my car is pretty big but I can't go hide in it because of the engine. Just because the Death Star is the size of a small moon doesn't mean that its 100% hollow except for walls and floors/ceilings.

And it's not like the Imperials didn't openly know that the intruders had gotten into a control room with maps and schematics.

Even if it was, it's still the size of a small moon.

As for the schematics, I don't care that R2D2 downloaded them. People get lost driving with a GPS. Imagine in a battle station...

The biggest problem with the "it was all Vader's plan from the start to make it look like they escaped" idea is that there doesn't seem to be any reason why "just capture them immediately and then interrogate them all at your leisure" plan wouldn't work better. It would mean no risk of having your valuable prisoners accidentally being shot by your own troops, or eaten by a garbage monster, or falling down an air shaft.

The second biggest problem is that Leia realizes they were let go, and then leads them directly to the rebel base anyway. Why didn't they stop somewhere and get rid of the tracking device, or drop off R2 and deliver the plans without using the Falcon, or stop and make hundreds of copies of the plans and send them all to the rebels by different routes and agents, or post them on the galactic internet where anyone could download them?

EDIT: I know they didn't have an internet in '77. I remember life before the internet because I was there.

It always baffled me how nobody seemed to care to make copies.

If the Death Star was like any number of factories I've been to, 98% of the structure is not a place outsiders will go. You have the public entry, reception and some offices, including the security office, all clustered together. So I have no trouble believing everything the heroes need is in very close proximity to each other.

Yea but this isn't a factory, it's a battle station. It'd be a little odd to place the detainment area right next to the hangar bay. I mean... sure... easier to ship prisoners in... but also easier to escape. Prisons are generally designed with escape in mind.

They are also off for the more "productive" parts of the station. The tractor beam engine thing is not analogous to a reception area. That would probably be quite a distance away from the hangars.

Even if the Death Star is 99% engines, for the gun, propulsion, food, garbage, and all other such components, I believe we see the guns be manually operated, right? And the thing is littered with guns. So presumably, at least the outer shell is "habitable". Which means that the Battle Station has a minimum of its area in floor space. Which, being a small moon sized sphere, is still absolutely huge.

My own thought is that the bulk of the Death Star's mass is taken up with the hypermatter reactor and related systems, with only 10% or so of the space being habitable. But even 10% of a moon is still a lot of places to hide.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Indeed, and the odds of Leia and the tractor beam being in the same small section of it are absurdly small. Heck, just the odds of there being a single ungarded switch for all tractor beams on this battle station...

...but they did? They show Vader beginning the questioning/torture. Vader and Tarkin later discuss how it didn't work. That was a plot point.

To make sense, it almost requires us to think that Vader actually wanted to fail, without looking like it. I know I've come across a theory in that regard. Also makes Vader doubly-ass for taking the sole hyper-drive'able ship out before he gets his battle station destroyed by the rebel alliance. Which he has no reason to be sympathetic to and continuously attempts to eradicate at every other opportunity.

Because otherwise, really, destroying the Falcon upon detecting it would have simply destroyed the plans, and otherwise preventing their escape would have made sure the plans didn't go anywhere, if he wanted to torture them to know if copies were made. Trailing them back to the rebel homeworld seems like a needless risk (were there never other opportunities to put trackers on rebel ships, really?).