OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

[Peelee]

Let's say you're police people and are called on a crime scene. At first, do you :
1) check for clues, or
2) ask your partner if he did done it?

If the crime was someone killed by a gun and my partner had been in that area shooting their gun beforehand, then probably go for #2 right off the bat.

[Psyren]

Quite on the contrary. Oona would still be able to tell that he wants them to follow him, while the effect of the silence spell would make it abundantly clear why he wants them to do so.

...You realize Team Evil is out of sight already right? Greyview has to catch up to them first before Oona can see him, giving Durkon and Minrah more time to escape, and therefore the second-level spell was very beneficial. I genuinely don't understand where the disconnect is coming from.

[Fyraltari]

Never claimed otherwise.

So he's not particularly suspect, then?

Yes, and the Order is an unknown distance away and in an unknown location. The MitD is neither of these.

Durkon and Minrah were in the village two minutes ago!

What's to overthink? There are X options. Eliminating Y of them is fast and simple. Plus, it's not like Xykon and Redcloak completely trust Team Evil right now regardless.

I thought we cleared that one!
I don't understand, it was marked!
Do you think these dwarves added some crosses on the doors before coming up?
Probably. Although...
Although what?
Myabe it's the indecisive goofball, with no attention span who's never taken a decision in his life and thinks we are his friend who's trying to delay us even though he stands to gain nothing from that?
...
...
...
It's probably the dwarves.

[Peelee]

So he's not particularly suspect, then?

...he is, though? Doors have been painted. The people in charge of painting the doors are suspect. And two of them know it wasn't them (albeit they don't know it wasn't each other).

Also, the dwarves notably didn't have any paint, it's probably easy to tell that the paint is dry and was not put on just beforehand, and the dwarves have no spells to magically make the doors appear painted.

Like, sure, you could complicate it a lot if you wanted to. You could also simplify it a lot if you wanted to. So lengthy hypothetical conversations in your favor do little to sway me.

[Sapphire Guard]

It seems unlikely they're clearing every monster in every dungeon. Getting into battle in itself wouldn't be much of a giveaway.

[Metastachydium]

...You realize Team Evil is out of sight already right? Greyview has to catch up to them first before Oona can see him, giving Durkon and Minrah more time to escape, and therefore the second-level spell was very beneficial. I genuinely don't understand where the disconnect is coming from.

Sorry, I misunderstood your previous post. I agree that the silence spell was a clever move on Team Cleric's part and it will delay the alarm. What I originally responded to was a post hypothesizing about how Team Evil won't understand why Greyview ran after them and how they will just stand there squandering time on trying to talk. I disagree with that position.

[137beth]

Ah, good, Durkon can still come up with a joke in the last panel. But the dwarves are running away before they find out that Xykon and Redcloak have been tricked about which dungeons they cleared.

[Hiro Quester]

I love the detail in the second-last panel of Minrah stowing her hammer by putting it behind her back, where it disappears from view and from concern. Just like in video games when a character draws/stows a weapon by reaching behind their back.

[One Skunk Todd]

I wonder if this is where Durkon and Minrah get picked off by darts from invisible... foes? parties unknown?

[Fyraltari]

If the crime was someone killed by a gun and my partner had been in that area shooting their gun beforehand, then probably go for #2 right off the bat.

And if the crime had been committed at the shooting range you and your partner regularly go to and that around that time a third party was seen stealing from the register, would you still start by asking your partner if he'd murdered the clerk?

...he is, though? Doors have been painted. The people in charge of painting the doors are suspect. And two of them know it wasn't them (albeit they don't know it wasn't each other).

The people with access to the paintbucket actually, which is pretty much everybody in the village.

Also, the dwarves notably didn't have any paint, it's probably easy to tell that the paint is dry and was not put on just beforehand, and the dwarves have no spells to magically make the doors appear painted.

Doesn't their elf wizard friend have one though?

Like, sure, you could complicate it a lot if you wanted to. You could also simplify it a lot if you wanted to. So lengthy hypothetical conversations in your favor do little to sway me.

Seriously, the MitD is the least suspect person for miles.

[WanderingMist]

The MitD isn't with them, he's (presumably) still at the village right now.
Why would they suspect him? Do you think they'll ask Redcloak whether he did it too?

Xykon would probably suspect that he's been stupid and painting the wrong doors when they leave the caves.

[Peelee]

And if the crime had been committed at the shooting range you and your partner regularly go to and that around that time a third party was seen stealing from the register, would you still start by asking your partner if he'd murdered the clerk?

Yes, but calling this a metaphorical shooting range is really stretching.

The people with access to the paintbucket actually, which is pretty much everybody in the village.

They are setting backdrop. The characters all know they're in a comic, after all.

Seriously, the MitD is the least suspect person for miles.

Yep, nothing suspicious, nope, nossirree.

[Metastachydium]

Seriously, the MitD is the least suspect person for miles.

While I tend to agree that the presence of the Order at somewhere around the Tomb is a very convenient explanation for how some doors could be marked when they should not have been, just how suspect the Monster is greatly depends on whether anyone was paying attention when he repeatedly babbled and at a point even sang about how much he loves O-Chul.

[bunsen_h]

Silence can be cast on a creature, object, or point in space. Usually you want one of the last two options because there's no will save to overcome it that way. Durkon however, chose the more difficult first option because then, the spell sticks to Greyview and will keep him quiet all the way until he can reach his allies. This was a reasonable tactic since worgs have weak will saves.

It continues after he reaches his allies.

"What's that, Lassie? You say that the Dwarves fell down into the stone?"

From this: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/silence.htm new creatures entering the Silence field around Greyview, get a Will save and Spell Resistance, if applicable, against the effects.

That's not how I interpret it. I think it's saying that there would be a Will save and Spell Resistance if it were cast on a person, not that those come into effect when a person comes into the range of a Silence field.

[Fyraltari]

Yes, but calling this a metaphorical shooting range is really stretching.

Is it? If painting is shooting, then a place where several people have painted might as well be a shooting range.

They are setting backdrop. The characters all know they're in a comic, after all.

Yeah, I'm sure none of the bugbears have anything going on.

Yep, nothing suspicious, nope, nossirree.

Point. Yet Oona is explictly going along with this to insure Team Evil doesn't kill too many monsters, so she has a vested interest in stopping TE from looking behind too many doors. The Order is more suspect than the Mitd, Xykon and Redcloak ar emore suspect thant the MITD to each other, the bugbears are more suspect than the Mitd. I think the only ones behind him are the roaches.

[KorvinStarmast]

If he can't obey his party leader, he can form his own adventuring party and do what he likes. Thor may be his ultimate boss, but while he's in a party he has to play by the party rules, including taking the orders of the party leader.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

The entire last book charted how loyal the Order was to Durkon as they tried to get him back to being Durkon (from being Durkula). Durkon abandoning the Order at this point (as opposed to acting on his own initiative because he's afraid that a dead Redcloak renders Thor's plan moot) is in conflict with his character since about... OoTS_1. No sale.

I wonder if this is where Durkon and Minrah get picked off by darts from invisible... foes? parties unknown?

While an intriguing prospect, the two mystery beings were last 'seen' (1) invisibly avoiding notice and (2) moving away from the Rift area. Dragging Minrah and Durkon up into the air while two high level casters (one of them for sure with True Sight) are actively seeking those two dwarves flies in the face of that (unseen) duo's desire to avoid notice. So I'll bet against.

Xykon would probably suspect that he's been stupid and painting the wrong doors when they leave the caves.

Betting against Xykon thinking of himself as stupid. Ever. Supreme self-confidence, and arrogance, is one of his trademark personality features.

[Peelee]

Is it? If painting is shooting, then a place where several people have painted might as well be a shooting range.

Huge inaccuracies aside... fine, let's go with that. And then we can also say that the bullet is from a specific gun which is police issue, your partner has questionable reports in their file, and your partner was shooting at the range within the same time frame that the victim died.

I would not call the partner "the least suspect person for miles" under those circumstances.

Yeah, I'm sure none of the bugbears have anything going on.

Xykon doesn't know about that, so they're set dressing to Xykon. Redcloak does know about that, but likely rules the bugbears out. So we're right back to "not the village bugbears".

Point. Yet Oona is explictly going along with this to insure Team Evil doesn't kill too many monsters, so she has a vested interest in stopping TE from looking behind too many doors. The Order is more suspect than the Mitd, Xykon and Redcloak ar emore suspect thant the MITD to each other, the bugbears are more suspect than the Mitd. I think the only ones behind him are the roaches.

Oona says the monsters regen, and there are a lot of doors. Oona has no vested interest in stopping them - at least, none that we and they have seen. She has only ever been proactively helpful.

[Jason]

Ya know, I can't help but wonder what the tracks inside the cave were that Oona had found.

Oona didn't find any tracks inside the door. When Xykon said "she found a trail," he was referring to the trail to the door left by Durkon and Minrah as a distraction, not any new trail Oona found inside.

[Peelee]

Oona didn't find any tracks inside the door. When Xykon said "she found a trail," he was referring to the trail to the door left by Durkon and Minrah as a distraction, not any new trail Oona found inside.

That's a definite reading I hadn't considered, but I'm not sure.

[Worldsong]

Betting against Xykon thinking of himself as stupid. Ever. Supreme self-confidence, and arrogance, is one of his trademark personality features.

I think Wandering meant that Xykon would assume MitD accidentally painted the wrong doors due to him thinking MitD is stupid.

Which still would mean it's MitD's fault but he wouldn't be accused of intentional misdirection.

[locksmith of lo]

won't silence be really disruptive if greyview ran into range of the spellcasters in the middle a big fight?

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

He did sniff them out!

[deltamire]

People are saying (rightly) that Roy's going to blow multiple gaskets when they get back, but one thing I'll be interested in seeing is whether or not that trauma he's got regarding getting people killed on his watch crops back up. I'm not expecting much of it - we aired a lot of Roy's dirty laundry last book - on account of the dwarves being gone for a far shorter amount of time and the fact that the Order could very easily have been watching most of the conflict, but it could really be interesting to see, especially after all the grief they went through to get Durkon back not 100 pages ago. The fact that Durkon willingly went around his orders (whether or not Durkon was correct in that action notwithstanding) could bump up against Roy's older insecurities regarding leadership, but I wouldn't bank on it. I think he's grown past that. Maybe. Hopefully.

[hroþila]

I'm on Team "the MitD should be the main suspect here and the only thing protecting him is the fact that everybody underestimates him". While I think it's quite plausible that the presence of Durkon and Minrah will shield the MitD from suspicion, I don't think that would stand to scrutiny if Redcloak distrusted the MitD enough to bother investigating properly.

Like, it's the exact same paint on all doors, for starters.

[Fyraltari]

Huge inaccuracies aside... fine, let's go with that. And then we can also say that the bullet is from a specific gun which is police issue, your partner has questionable reports in their file, and your partner was shooting at the range within the same time frame that the victim died.

What inacuracies? Also what is « can also say that the bullet is from a specific gun which is police issue » supposed to be analogous to? The paint? Because I doubt they can tell red paint from red paint and, again, wizard elf.

I would not call the partner "the least suspect person for miles" under those circumstances.

Certainly less suspect than the guy who was also there and had motive. Seriously they think they know the MiTD, and what they know of him points away from him being willing or able to deceive them.

Xykon doesn't know about that, so they're set dressing to Xykon.

Oona isn’t.

Redcloak does know about that, but likely rules the bugbears out

[Citation needed]

Oona says the monsters regen, and there are a lot of doors. Oona has no vested interest in stopping them - at least, none that we and they have seen. She has only ever been proactively helpful.

No she said they come back after a while. Some forumites assume it’s magical, but it might not be. In the same strip she says she only comes with to make sure TE doesn’t kill too many monsters. She’s worried about overhunting. It’d make sense to suspect her of trying to hide some monsters to make sure her tribe is still fed after TE has left.

[Metastachydium]

I'm on Team "the MitD should be the main suspect here and the only thing protecting him is the fact that everybody underestimates him". While I think it's quite plausible that the presence of Durkon and Minrah will shield the MitD from suspicion, I don't think that would stand to scrutiny if Redcloak distrusted the MitD enough to bother investigating properly.

Like, it's the exact same paint on all doors, for starters.

I mean, Xykon would not have to be half the mastermind some take him for to figure out where the Monster's true loyalties lie.

[hroþila]

No she said they come back after a while. Some forumites assume it’s magical, but it might not be. In the same strip she says she only comes with to make sure TE doesn’t kill too many monsters. She’s worried about overhunting. It’d make sense to suspect her of trying to hide some monsters to make sure her tribe is still fed after TE has left.

One point in favour of this is that, if they assume this deception started recently, they could think that Oona only started doing it when they went from clearing one door per day to clearing like six, thus seriously increasing the risk of overhunting.

[Jason]

I'm on Team "the MitD should be the main suspect here and the only thing protecting him is the fact that everybody underestimates him". While I think it's quite plausible that the presence of Durkon and Minrah will shield the MitD from suspicion, I don't think that would stand to scrutiny if Redcloak distrusted the MitD enough to bother investigating properly.

Like, it's the exact same paint on all doors, for starters.

It's red paint. It's not an uncommon item. Is Redcloak going to analyze samples in his forensics lab to say "this all came from the same bucket" or something?

It seems much more likely that Redcloak will believe the Order has been here for some time marking doors to sabotage his efforts.

[Lex]

I'm on Team "the MitD should be the main suspect here and the only thing protecting him is the fact that everybody underestimates him". While I think it's quite plausible that the presence of Durkon and Minrah will shield the MitD from suspicion, I don't think that would stand to scrutiny if Redcloak distrusted the MitD enough to bother investigating properly.

Like, it's the exact same paint on all doors, for starters.

Exactly. In order for The Order to be the ones painting the doors, a lot of assumptions have to be made: that they were watching Team Evil long enough to learn that they are marking the doors they entered, that they have paint (and similar enough to the one Team Evil use), that they managed to slip into the village completely unnoticed at least one time.
In the Monster's case, if Redcloack remembers the times he showed to be too friendly with the Order and the paladins (like at Girard's Gate, as it was already posted) it's easy to start seeing him as a suspect.

[Cazero]

Huge inaccuracies aside... fine, let's go with that. And then we can also say that the bullet is from a specific gun which is police issue, your partner has questionable reports in their file, and your partner was shooting at the range within the same time frame that the victim died.

I would not call the partner "the least suspect person for miles" under those circumstances.

More like your pursuit of a burglar leads you to discover a dead body in the armory, right next to a place where those specific police-issue guns are stored, and half the guns are missing, and you have no idea yet how long ago any of that happened because nobody went there for the last five months. An autopsy can innocent the burglar, but he's still the prime suspect until that's done.