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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Lex View Post
    Exactly. In order for The Order to be the ones painting the doors, a lot of assumptions have to be made: that they were watching Team Evil long enough to learn that they are marking the doors they entered, that they have paint (and similar enough to the one Team Evil use), that they managed to slip into the village completely unnoticed at least one time.
    They were watching Team Evil long enough to know (through the paladins) and if Durkon could just pop out of thin air in the village then last item on your list is sounds like a plausible assumption that Redcloak could make as well as something they could have done.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Worldsong View Post
    I think Wandering meant that Xykon would assume MitD accidentally painted the wrong doors due to him thinking MitD is stupid.
    OK.
    Indeed.

    Quote Originally Posted by hroþila View Post
    One point in favour of this is that, if they assume this deception started recently, they could think that Oona only started doing it when they went from clearing one door per day to clearing like six, thus seriously increasing the risk of overhunting.
    Doubly plausible with Oona being some kind of Ranger.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    It's red paint.
    All red!

    It's not necessarily that easy to get the same colour with pre-industrial pigments (without magic*).

    *yes, magic is available, but it's an additional assumption that has to be made on top of all the others
    ungelic is us

  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Lex View Post
    Exactly. In order for The Order to be the ones painting the doors, a lot of assumptions have to be made: that they were watching Team Evil long enough to learn that they are marking the doors they entered, that they have paint (and similar enough to the one Team Evil use), that they managed to slip into the village completely unnoticed at least one time.
    In the Monster's case, if Redcloack remembers the times he showed to be too friendly with the Order and the paladins (like at Girard's Gate, as it was already posted) it's easy to start seeing him as a suspect.
    They have known MiTD to be friendly with O-Chul since Azure City. If they’d have thought he was capable of turning against them, they’d have done something a long time ago. They think he’s a harmless doofus.
    Quote Originally Posted by hroþila View Post
    All red!

    It's not necessarily that easy to get the same colour with pre-industrial pigments (without magic*).

    *yes, magic is available, but it's an additional assumption that has to be made on top of all the others
    Prestidigitation (linked to upthread) is a zeroth level spell two members of the order have access to. Okay they probably forgot Elan existed but they remember V.
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  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    Sorry, I misunderstood your previous post. I agree that the silence spell was a clever move on Team Cleric's part and it will delay the alarm. What I originally responded to was a post hypothesizing about how Team Evil won't understand why Greyview ran after them and how they will just stand there squandering time on trying to talk. I disagree with that position.
    Don't know who you were replying to then because I never said that.

    Quote Originally Posted by bunsen_h View Post
    That's not how I interpret it. I think it's saying that there would be a Will save and Spell Resistance if it were cast on a person, not that those come into effect when a person comes into the range of a Silence field.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by bunsen_h View Post
    It continues after he reaches his allies.

    "What's that, Lassie? You say that the Dwarves fell down into the stone?"
    Sure, but as only clerics can cast it, Redcloak would suss out what happened pretty much instantly.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    What inacuracies?
    "Place where shots were fired" is not in any way analogous to "shooting range".
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Also what is « can also say that the bullet is from a specific gun which is police issue » supposed to be analogous to? The paint? Because I doubt they can tell red paint from red paint and, again, wizard elf.
    Yes, I picked "police issue gun" for a reason. It's not like those are only made for police and only police carry them and civilians can't. It's like a cop car - it's just what they use. However, if a Crown Vic ran over a guy and your partner was on that street and the car is a little beat up, yeah, it's time to ask a couple of questions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Certainly less suspect than the guy who was also there and had motive. Seriously they think they know the MiTD, and what they know of him points away from him being willing or able to deceive them.
    Need I link to that strip again?
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Oona isn’t.
    Again, Oona has only ever been proactively helpful as far as we and they can tell.

    I'm not saying that they are immediately going to zero in on MitD like hawks and suss out what has been happening. But you seem to be insisting that they're just going to bury their heads in the sand and I don't buy that for a second.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2020-10-19 at 11:31 AM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    That's a definite reading I hadn't considered, but I'm not sure.
    If she had found a new trail inside the door that was not left by Durkon and Minrah (since they never actually went in) she should be able to tell that it's a different trail. She had no problem discerning between tracks left by Durkon and Minrah when following their actual trail to the door.

  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Don't know who you were replying to then because I never said that.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Sure, but as only clerics can cast it, Redcloak would suss out what happened pretty much instantly.
    I am smiling as I imagine Redcloak trying to explain it to Xykon (and Oona) while all of them are still inside the area of Silence, flailing his arms with ever-increasing exasperation.
    If a tree falls in the forest and the PCs aren't around to hear it... what do I roll to see how loud it is?

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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bunsen_h View Post
    ...That's not how I interpret it. I think it's saying that there would be a Will save and Spell Resistance if it were cast on a person, not that those come into effect when a person comes into the range of a Silence field.
    Taking into account that half the fun of 3.5 is trying to interpret the rules...the spell description itself says that, "The spell can be centered on a creature, and the effect then radiates from the creature and moves as it moves." Within that effect is absolute silence. Again, per the description. Unwilling recipients get a Will save against the effects. Greyview got one, and blew it.

    If any of the other three members of TE got within 20 feet of Greyview, why wouldn't they be subject to the spell---so long as they remained within 20 feet---barring a save and spell resistance? Especially if Greyview---running Silently---is able to get within 20 feet, or whatever the radius is, without TE noticing.

    In practice, it's a Will save, and probably trivial for RC. Maybe X too. Provided they're not up to their necks in monsters, easy to Dispel.

  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by hroþila View Post
    All red!

    It's not necessarily that easy to get the same colour with pre-industrial pigments (without magic*).

    *yes, magic is available, but it's an additional assumption that has to be made on top of all the others
    I agree. In fact, because of the problems you're talking about it is unlikely all the marked doors are exactly the same shade of red even with members of Team Evil having made all the marks, because each time they mix up a new bucket of paint it will be a slightly different shade, and the paint is unlikely to be all one uniform shade even in each individual bucket.

    Put simply, there's no way for Redcloak to tell that all of the marks were made with the same paint, which was my original point.

  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    "Place where shots were fired" is not in any way analogous to "shooting range".
    If you have another example of a place where half a dozen people regularly come to shoot guns, I’ll take it.

    Yes, I picked "police issue gun" for a reason. It's not like those are only made for police and only police carry them and civilians can't. It's like a cop car - it's just what they use. However, if a Crown Vic ran over a guy and your partner was on that street and the car is a little beat up, yeah, it's time to ask a couple of questions.
    Completely ignoring the guy who had motive to kill the victim and access to the same kind of car?

    Need I link to that strip again?
    The one where they ignore the MiTD’s actual reasoning to focus on their power games? Because I think Xykon’s take-away from that was « I re-asserted dominance over that nerd » and Redcloak’s « **** that **** corpse-man » not « Hmm, the idiot in the Dark is acting rather strange. Is he turning against us? »

    Again, Oona has only ever been proactively helpful as far as we and they can tell.
    She literally told them that she only helped them to make sure they don’t kill all the monsters.

    [quite]I'm not saying that they are immediately going to zero in on MitD like hawks and suss out what has been happening. But you seem to be insisting that they're just going to bury their heads in the sand and I don't buy that for a second.[/QUOTE]
    No. I responded to Psyren stating that « this will tip them off about MiTD pretty quickly » which, as far as my understanding of English goes is exactly equivalent to « immediately zero in on MitD ». I don’t think it will, because it is far more logical to suspect the order until given any reason otherwise. And if they somehow rule that out, then the bugbears are still a more likely suspect than Monster-san.

    « Just bury their head in the sand » is a gross mischaracterization if my position. Are we on the same page?
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  13. - Top - End - #103
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    « Just bury their head in the sand » is a gross mischaracterization if my position. Are we on the same page?
    You claimed that literally every person in the village is more suspicious than the monster who acted suspiciously and had been doing most of the painting.

    If that's not burying their heads in the sand, I don't know what is.
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  14. - Top - End - #104
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Great comic again! Thank you Giant!

    As for the discussion as to whom Team Evil will suspect of sabotage painting: if there were other people in the valley, wouldn't Greyview have smelled them? How long would scent last in that environment?
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  15. - Top - End - #105
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    You claimed that literally every person in the village is more suspicious than the monster who acted suspiciously and had been doing most of the painting.
    Not most. He did it at least once and the wording implied it was the first time.
    Because everybody else has a better motive.
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    If that's not burying their heads in the sand, I don't know what is.
    That'd be "Heh, that door shouldn't have been marked. Bah, who cares."
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  16. - Top - End - #106
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by locksmith of lo View Post
    won't silence be really disruptive if greyview ran into range of the spellcasters in the middle a big fight?
    That's a very good point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghosty View Post
    Taking into account that half the fun of 3.5 is trying to interpret the rules...the spell description itself says that, "The spell can be centered on a creature, and the effect then radiates from the creature and moves as it moves." Within that effect is absolute silence. Again, per the description. Unwilling recipients get a Will save against the effects. Greyview got one, and blew it.

    If any of the other three members of TE got within 20 feet of Greyview, why wouldn't they be subject to the spell---so long as they remained within 20 feet---barring a save and spell resistance? Especially if Greyview---running Silently---is able to get within 20 feet, or whatever the radius is, without TE noticing.

    In practice, it's a Will save, and probably trivial for RC. Maybe X too. Provided they're not up to their necks in monsters, easy to Dispel.
    My interpretation is that all of those saves apply if the spell is being cast on a person, but not if a person is merely within the area of effect of a Silence spell. I'm not convinced that any of these saves etc. allow one to make noise within a sound-dead area.

  17. - Top - End - #107
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    I wonder, is Durkon's Wind Walk still active?

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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Not most. He did it at least once and the wording implied it was the first time.
    And Redcloak's math suggests that he has been painting the doors most of the time after (unless he marked an enormous number of doors that one time)
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Because everybody else has a better motive.
    No, they don't. We know practically nothing whatsoever about them, other than that they like the monsters for resources and the monsters always return. Again, this is practically the definition of burying their heads in the sand.

    ETA:
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    That'd be "Heh, that door shouldn't have been marked. Bah, who cares."
    That's burying their heads in the sand about what is happening. You are claiming they are going to bury their heads in the sand about who is doing it.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2020-10-19 at 12:03 PM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
    I wonder, is Durkon's Wind Walk still active?
    I'd like to answer this, but after looking at the implementation on the page and not feeling very 3.5e savvy, I'm not sure if it has ended or not.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghosty View Post
    Taking into account that half the fun of 3.5 is trying to interpret the rules...the spell description itself says that, "The spell can be centered on a creature, and the effect then radiates from the creature and moves as it moves." Within that effect is absolute silence. Again, per the description. Unwilling recipients get a Will save against the effects. Greyview got one, and blew it.

    If any of the other three members of TE got within 20 feet of Greyview, why wouldn't they be subject to the spell---so long as they remained within 20 feet---barring a save and spell resistance? Especially if Greyview---running Silently---is able to get within 20 feet, or whatever the radius is, without TE noticing.

    In practice, it's a Will save, and probably trivial for RC. Maybe X too. Provided they're not up to their necks in monsters, easy to Dispel.
    The silence spell does not allow a saving throw or spell resistance if it cast on an unattended object or point in space. It only allows SR/Saves if cast on an unwilling creature or item in the direct possession of an unwilling creature. The save/SR isn't to avoid the effect of silence, merely avoid having the spell cast upon someone in the first place.

    Also silence prevents casting of spells with spoken components so unless Red Cloak has a silent dispel prepared, or Xylon has both silent spell and a non-epic dispel known they actually can't remove the effect of silence from within it.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Was already thinking of a wolf animal companion build, and then I get wholesome Greyview content!
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Ignore this post. I was thinking of something else when I wrote it..
    Last edited by Jason; 2020-10-20 at 08:18 AM. Reason: Multiple people pointed out I was very wrong. Mea culpa.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    And Redcloak's math suggests that he has been painting the doors most of the time after (unless he marked an enormous number of doors that one time)
    No, it suggests he has done it again, not that he did it the most.

    No, they don't. We know practically nothing whatsoever about them, other than that they like the monsters for resources and the monsters always return.
    Which is a better motive than MitD’s got. And, Team Evil has known them for less long than MitD, who they (think they) know to be incapable of betraying them. Who is more likely to do you dirty? The guy you met two months ago who straight-up told you he’ll only help as long as it’s not inconvenient or the guy who has considered you their only friend for the last 3 years and thinks scrabble tiles are a form of currency?
    Again, this is practically the definition of burying their heads in the sand.
    I find your insistance on reducing my position to a single intenable sentence that you can more easily dismiss to be rude, and I you don’t stop, I am done with this conversation.
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2020-10-19 at 12:12 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Goblin_Priest View Post
    I was wondering where Greyview went.

    Also, I see Durkon likes to prep all these super situational spells in the morning. :P
    Um, silence is basically a flat NOPE to almost all casters in close quarters (like many places inside a dungeon), and it's only level 2. How many useful spells have no verbal component?

    IMAO it's part of a standard cleric loadout for combat. If you want to call it situational, then the situation it's good for is "we're fighting a group or a caster or both in a situation where the enemy is unable or unwilling to run out of the radius of the spell", given that once you're in melee, leaving the area of the spell provokes, this is so common that a high level cleric ought to consider carrying a wand for it.

    Then there are ALSO the uses for stealth and concealment, which are legion.
    Last edited by Doug Lampert; 2020-10-19 at 12:25 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    Everyone gets a save as they enter the area of effect of the spell. If they make their save they are unaffected by the spell (they can make noise, in this case).

    If only the target got a save and it affected everyone else in the area regardless of their own saves, then the common tactic would be to cast it on the low level minion standing next to the high-level spellcaster, or on the floor tile the spellcaster is standing on, or some other work-around that completely negates the real target of the spell's high saving throws.
    It's explicitly NONE for the saving throw when cast on an object. So, yes, casting on a floor tile does in fact completely negate the real target of the spell's high saving throws. That's in the text "Will negates; see text or none (object)".

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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    They were watching Team Evil long enough to know (through the paladins) and if Durkon could just pop out of thin air in the village then last item on your list is sounds like a plausible assumption that Redcloak could make as well as something they could have done.
    To be fair, Redcloack doesn't know they were spied by the paladins.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    They have known MiTD to be friendly with O-Chul since Azure City. If they’d have thought he was capable of turning against them, they’d have done something a long time ago. They think he’s a harmless doofus.

    Prestidigitation (linked to upthread) is a zeroth level spell two members of the order have access to. Okay they probably forgot Elan existed but they remember V.
    At that time they didn't have any motive to suspect the Monster could turn against them, but with time all his little suspicious behaviours start to add up.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    Everyone gets a save as they enter the area of effect of the spell. If they make their save they are unaffected by the spell (they can make noise, in this case).

    If only the target got a save and it affected everyone else in the area regardless of their own saves, then the common tactic would be to cast it on the low level minion standing next to the high-level spellcaster, or on the floor tile the spellcaster is standing on, or some other work-around that completely negates the real target of the spell's high saving throws.
    Well yes, that’s the point, neutralize a spellcaster. It’s not like it’s a be-all-end-all, the spellcaster can just move a bit to the side and be fine. Unless you think that Durkon, Durkula (Arguably, hard to tell if the spell affected him), Minrah, and Gontor (all clerics) all failed their will saves against the Silence spell ?

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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Lex View Post
    At that time they didn't have any motive to suspect the Monster could turn against them, but with time all his little suspicious behaviours start to add up.
    I am reminded, by your post, of the movie The Usual Suspects and for how long who Keyser Söze was remained a mystery even to the cast.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    Everyone gets a save as they enter the area of effect of the spell. If they make their save they are unaffected by the spell (they can make noise, in this case).

    If only the target got a save and it affected everyone else in the area regardless of their own saves, then the common tactic would be to cast it on the low level minion standing next to the high-level spellcaster, or on the floor tile the spellcaster is standing on, or some other work-around that completely negates the real target of the spell's high saving throws.
    Yes. Yes that, uh, is the common tactic. That's exactly how the spell is used.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Which is a better motive than MitD’s got. And, Team Evil has known them for less long than MitD, who they (think they) know to be incapable of betraying them. Who is more likely to do you dirty? The guy you met two months ago who straight-up told you he’ll only help as long as it’s not inconvenient or the guy who has considered you their only friend for the last 3 years and thinks scrabble tiles are a form of currency?
    If it was the first instance of weirdness around MitD I'd agree with you. But between this, O-Chul's improbable escape, and his insistence on them not taking out the Order in the desert only to have them show up in the North Pole, I'd say it's reasonable for Redcloak at least to start being suspicious.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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