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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Feytouched View Post
    I truly hope Roy gives it to Durkon. He took it upon himself to do this and cost the party whatever element of surprise they might have had.. for nothing.
    Well, maybe not nothing. Hopefully the seeds of doubt have been planted in RedCloak, perhaps to make a later appearance.

  2. - Top - End - #152
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    GreatWyrmGold's Avatar

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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacky720 View Post
    If they had put the spell on any part of the area, as soon as Greyview left the radius he'd be able to just call into the dungeon. As it is, he'll need to get within sight or 20ft instead before they notice him.
    : "Why the hells are there monsters in this passage? There was an X on the door!"
    : "We have to consider the possibility that our enemies have been sabotaging ourwait, why can't I hear myself talking?"
    : "Were you saying something? Wait, why can't I hear myself talk?"
    : "Xykon, can you read lips? I believe somebody has cast a silence spell."
    Greyview: arrives
    : "Why are you still trying to talk, you moron?"
    : "Of course, any lip-reading communication would be one way, since you don't have lips..."
    Greyview: scratches Xykon to get his attention
    : "Gah! Finger of Death! ...Why isn't this thing on fire?"
    : "I believe the silence spell may be on the wolf."


    Quote Originally Posted by Sylian View Post
    If Minrah gets killed before reaching the Order, would she go to Hel? She's essentially running from a fight, which doesn't seem to fit with "die with honor" from a dwarven perspective. Assuming she doesn't have time to turn around and fight, that is. Oh, and if they hadn't been protected from fire, would she had gone to Hel if she were killed by the Maximized Fireball?
    Dwarves go to Thor if they die fighting a tree. I don't think mere humans can comprehend the intricacies of dwarven honor.


    Quote Originally Posted by Various
    Tortured analogies comparing X's painted to one guy being shot
    The problem with these analogies is that a lot of people got shot, not just one. Team Evil wanted some of them to be shot, but doesn't remember which ones (which is why they shot them). MitD screwed things up by...um...shooting a bunch of people in the leg? Squirting ketchup on people? This isn't a very good analogy.


    Quote Originally Posted by Various
    Who will Team Evil suspect?
    I'm on Team They'll Blame the Order First. I won't deny that Redcloak might question whether the Order has been here long enough to inflate the X count slowly enough that they didn't notice and/or remember that MitD hasn't been acting terribly loyal if he gives it more thought, but the Order will definitely be his first thought...and it's plausible enough that Team Evil may not bother with a second thought before it's too late.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Blade Wolf View Post
    Ah, thank you very much GreatWyrmGold, you obviously live up to that name with your intelligence and wisdom with that post.
    Quotes, more

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  3. - Top - End - #153
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    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Silence has a 30' radius IIRC. It will not be long before Xykon and the others are in hot pursuit.

    The only thing we can hope is that Team Evil ran into something strong enough to delay them.
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  4. - Top - End - #154
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    Fish's Avatar

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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Wrath View Post
    The only thing we can hope is that Team Evil ran into something strong enough to delay them.
    And that isn't affected by silence.
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  5. - Top - End - #155
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Do you think we'll ever actually see the inside of the caves, or will we just keep getting regaled with tales of how exciting and complex they look?

  6. - Top - End - #156
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
    I wonder, is Durkon's Wind Walk still active?
    It would have been very poor planning to have headed down for this little discussion just as the spell was ending. Its duration is 1 hour/level; how long has it been since Redcloak first saw Durkon, 15 minutes?

  7. - Top - End - #157
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    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    My theory is that Durkon has a modified version of Wind Walk that allows it to target more people than usual at the detriment of only allowing a single transformation into wind and back.

    Also on an unrelated note, 10 quatloos says that Durkon and Minrah will make their way back to the paladins' cliff only for the rest of the order to be missing.

  8. - Top - End - #158
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    It's a stretch for Team Evil to immediately suspect the MitD and not the dwarves they already know were trying to misdirect them.

    Incidentally, the Order don't know that the MitD has been marking doors, or even know for sure that Team Evil has been marking doors, because somebody ran off before they could get that info from the paladins. They've been exchanging 25-word Sendings; there's not room for that sort of detail.
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  9. - Top - End - #159
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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Lucky for Durkon and Minrah that they caught Greyview monologuing, however briefly.
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  10. - Top - End - #160
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    The problem with these analogies is that a lot of people got shot, not just one. Team Evil wanted some of them to be shot, but doesn't remember which ones (which is why they shot them). MitD screwed things up by...um...shooting a bunch of people in the leg? Squirting ketchup on people? This isn't a very good analogy.
    Team Evil has a collection of a few hundred prisoners dungeons, of whom they believe one knows is the location of the Gate. Each night, they interrogate crawl a few prisoners dungeons and then shoot paint them to keep track of them, becuse they're Evil. While the others are heading home, MitD shoots paints a few extra prisoners doors with the same gun paint, which is really crappy and has to be replaced every few nights,* but is of a common model formula, before rejoining them.

    When Team Evil uses Speak With Dead on re-enters a corpse dungeon (which they believe to know be the location of two escaping dwarf clerics) to realize some of the corpses doors were not interrogated cleared, do they suspect MitD?

    Also, how many people have blue eyes and what do you ask the guard who always lies?

    * This clause may be optional as the paint-making methods have not been described and are possibly magical, which would guarantee a more consistent makeup. Actually, a lot of this isn't really important to the analogy.
    Last edited by Jacky720; 2020-10-19 at 07:59 PM. Reason: Color-coding!

  11. - Top - End - #161
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    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Baine View Post
    Do you think we'll ever actually see the inside of the caves, or will we just keep getting regaled with tales of how exciting and complex they look?
    Probably. In fact, almost certainly.

  12. - Top - End - #162
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    Everyone gets a save as they enter the area of effect of the spell. If they make their save they are unaffected by the spell (they can make noise, in this case).

    If only the target got a save and it affected everyone else in the area regardless of their own saves, then the common tactic would be to cast it on the low level minion standing next to the high-level spellcaster, or on the floor tile the spellcaster is standing on, or some other work-around that completely negates the real target of the spell's high saving throws.
    I disagree. There is only one save.

    Yes, casting it on the minion or on the floor tile the spellcaster is standing on works just fine. It forces the enemy caster to move 20 feet, which is usually not a big deal.

    The clever cleric has a Ready Action to cast Silence as the enemy begins casting, hoping to spoil a powerful spell.

  13. - Top - End - #163
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    Zombie

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    d6 Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bilbo Baggins View Post
    Also on an unrelated note, 10 quatloos says that Durkon and Minrah will make their way back to the paladins' cliff only for the rest of the order to be missing.

    High roller! I only bet two on
    Quote Originally Posted by unbjorn View Post
    "the rest of the OOTS has been captured by the unseen duo"
    KorvinStarmast what are the odds on this now?

  14. - Top - End - #164
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Indeed. It will certainly be interesting to see what Roy's reaction is when this is all done.


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  15. - Top - End - #165
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    So. Xykon, Redcloak, and Oona have gone barrelling into a fight with Big Bad Beasties without buffing themselves. Then suddenly all sound will cut out, taking out most of their casting ability, and a few seconds later Greyview will join them from around a corner..? This may take a little while to untangle.

  16. - Top - End - #166
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Has everyone but Haley, Belkar, and Elan confronted Team Evil on (effectively) their own so far? Roy with the undead dragon, V with Darth V's epic scry and fry, and now Durkon with his negotiation and retreat.

    Actually, every assault on Team Evil for brash means has been similar. Roy had the assistance of Belkar's ring of jumping, fought Zykon, died.
    Darth V had the assistance of a certain blue boi, fought Xykon, would have died if it weren't for TMITD.
    Now Durkon has team dwarf here and narrowly escape a brawl with Redcloak and the rest of current team evil.

    Imagine Haley and Elan vs Team Evil.. What could those two even hope to do?
    Edit: Inb4 Elan's 'happy ending' is dying alongside Haley, or dying knowing he has given Haley some means of saving the world.
    Last edited by PattThe; 2020-10-19 at 09:42 PM.
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  17. - Top - End - #167
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by unbjorn View Post
    High roller! I only bet two on

    KorvinStarmast what are the odds on this now?
    Hmm, that's a very long shot. 30 to 1 against.
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  18. - Top - End - #168
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bunsen_h View Post
    So. Xykon, Redcloak, and Oona have gone barrelling into a fight with Big Bad Beasties without buffing themselves. Then suddenly all sound will cut out, taking out most of their casting ability, and a few seconds later Greyview will join them from around a corner..? This may take a little while to untangle.
    You could easily be right. It is very plausible for them to get shredded up pretty badly, because they are expecting one kind of enemy and will run smack into something else entirely.

  19. - Top - End - #169
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Snails View Post
    You could easily be right. It is very plausible for them to get shredded up pretty badly, because they are expecting one kind of enemy and will run smack into something else entirely.
    It would be ironic if Minrah's plan ended up getting Redcloak killed. Very unlikely, but still.
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  20. - Top - End - #170
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sylian View Post
    If Minrah gets killed before reaching the Order, would she go to Hel? She's essentially running from a fight, which doesn't seem to fit with "die with honor" from a dwarven perspective. Assuming she doesn't have time to turn around and fight, that is. Oh, and if they hadn't been protected from fire, would she had gone to Hel if she were killed by the Maximized Fireball?
    I don't think the requirement to "die with honor" requires them to be a bunch of Leeroy Jenkins, charging straight into any hopeless battle that offers itself. If she dies right now, it'll be because she jumped into a fight against an extremely dangerous enemy to save Durkon, and at the moment retreating is the right thing to do by any measure. She's shown plenty enough honor and courage just by being there, so I'm pretty sure this would count as "dying in battle".

  21. - Top - End - #171
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Feytouched View Post
    I truly hope Roy gives it to Durkon. He took it upon himself to do this and cost the party whatever element of surprise they might have had.. for nothing.
    He got Redcloak and Xykon to blow some spell slots? In RC's case a 9th level one. If the Order capitalizes on this, in addition to TE being bruised up from encountering monsters behind the door, they may actually have a chance to do something (whether that's the search the tomb themselves, try a follow-up ambush or anything they want while TE's recuperating.

    Durkon may have ruined the element of surprise but the situation's not unsalvageable.

  22. - Top - End - #172
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    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Feytouched View Post
    I truly hope Roy gives it to Durkon. He took it upon himself to do this and cost the party whatever element of surprise they might have had.. for nothing.
    Ah, but it was an absolutely perfect move for DRAMA.

    A team member going rogue to do what they truly believe is right, and they maybe aren't even all that wrong? That's the kind of constructive conflict I dream of encountering as a player.

    I'm firmly in the camp of "Durkon made the right decision." We've already seen Roy tell Julia that he'll kill Redcloak if he has to -- he's a good team leader, but he's not seeing the big (cosmic) picture.

    That seed of doubt is going to fester in Redcloak's head, and crop up soon enough. When they have him at their mercy, hopefully he'll remember that negotiation was their opening play.

    (NS: I continue to be baffled by predictions that Minrah's going to get Stuffed in the Fridge. It would be such a weird, dissonant story beat.)
    Last edited by Ionathus; 2020-10-20 at 01:12 AM.

  23. - Top - End - #173
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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Regarding MitD, I suspect Team Evil has reached a point where they just screen out most of what he says, particularly in the long term. They'll remember that he treated O-Chul like a pet/teddy bear and was shouting encouragement during his ESCAPE! just like he did when they were dropping him into acid, and that in the desert he babbled something that happened to make sense as a reason to move on, but to them he's been a background character for so long that I suspect all those subtle hints that he's been sabotaging them/helping their enemies won't come to mind unless they really sit down and brainstorm, which Xykon is absolutely not going to be up for right now. That said, if things settle into a lull after this and Xykon and RC start thinking back and examining times where things went wrong they'll probably notice a trend of MitD being involved, particularly if they clue in to the fact that someone has been adding X's. Now, whether they conclude MitD is actually exhibiting independent thought or is just bumbling around causing problems is pretty up in the air. My guess is RC suspects treachery and Xykon brushes it off since stupidity is the easier and more obvious answer.

  24. - Top - End - #174
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace of Rogues View Post
    They'll remember that he treated O-Chul like a pet/teddy bear and was shouting encouragement during his ESCAPE!
    Not even that. Xykon, only one present at the time, thinks he was asleep https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html
    Last edited by Theshipening; 2020-10-20 at 03:01 AM.

  25. - Top - End - #175
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    Beholder

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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Is this comic going to be added to the archive list any time soon?

  26. - Top - End - #176
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Is it just me, or does the story seem to be begging for Durkon and Minrah to run smack into MitD?

    ~~~~

    Quote Originally Posted by locksmith of lo View Post
    won't silence be really disruptive if greyview ran into range of the spellcasters in the middle a big fight?
    I think it's a safe bet none of this will happen, but a variety of epic hijinks could ensue.

    Big nasty fight with a sonic-type who's kicking their butts until Greyview shows up.

    Big nasty fight with a tank-type. Xykon quickly figures out the source of the Silence and ends Greyview's existence on this plane, because otherwise they're screwed plus he's just that impatient. (Definitely don't want this happening, I like Greyview and Oona.)

    Or... no fight. Slapstick charades ensue, with a Lassie joke certain and Greyview biting the culprit.

  27. - Top - End - #177
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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bunsen_h View Post
    That's a very good point.



    My interpretation is that all of those saves apply if the spell is being cast on a person, but not if a person is merely within the area of effect of a Silence spell. I'm not convinced that any of these saves etc. allow one to make noise within a sound-dead area.
    The problem with this interpretation is that it could easily be abused in actual play. You could very easily cast it on your willing barbarian who will forfeit her save and then you can send her to hack away at all the enemy casters, who then would not get a save.

    Everyone should be getting a save/SR or they game grinds to a screeching halt because of a low level spell. But yeah the way the spell rules are written is ambiguous. Though there might be something like a general rule for magic Area of Effect that you're supposed to assume whenever you read those. At least in 3.5e?

    EDIT:
    Oh wow, there are some players here who actually do use the spell that way. It just seems like too good of a combo at lower levels so I never applied/interpreted it like that. Since its application seems stronger than Dispel Magic and it is one level lower. Moving away from a Barbarian or a Monk with Silence casted upon them seems like a very tall order for any caster in the lower levels. But I'm getting into RAI territory now and other spells do explicitly state when creatures who enter the emanation's area get a save so I guess I'll stop.

    Though if I may say one more thing: a reason why Greg, Durkon and Minrah did not speak within the area of Silence is that it was in their best interests not to make any noise so they voluntarily failed the save when they were first exposed to the effect. It's not a very strong argument, admittedly.
    Last edited by Shirow; 2020-10-20 at 06:56 AM.

  28. - Top - End - #178
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaziggy View Post
    Adventurers are not typically wandering around the landscape with paint. I think if MitD says 'no definitely wasn't me, was probably those adventurers' the baddies would believe it. I think if he says 'oh- yeah I must have painted the wrong door lol my bad!' the baddies would believe it. What they won't do is jump to the conclusion the MitD did it and that he was doing it in order to assist the Order/the cause of Good.
    I'm pretty sure prestidigitation would cover "make an X in paint".

    I'm not sure why paint is supposed to be so special and distinctive in a world filled with spellcasters.
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  29. - Top - End - #179
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacky720 View Post
    Team Evil has a collection of a few hundred prisoners dungeons, of whom they believe one knows is the location of the Gate. Each night, they interrogate crawl a few prisoners dungeons and then shoot paint them to keep track of them, becuse they're Evil. While the others are heading home, MitD shoots paints a few extra prisoners doors with the same gun paint, which is really crappy and has to be replaced every few nights,* but is of a common model formula, before rejoining them.

    When Team Evil uses Speak With Dead on re-enters a corpse dungeon (which they believe to know be the location of two escaping dwarf clerics) to realize some of the corpses doors were not interrogated cleared, do they suspect MitD?

    Also, how many people have blue eyes and what do you ask the guard who always lies?

    * This clause may be optional as the paint-making methods have not been described and are possibly magical, which would guarantee a more consistent makeup. Actually, a lot of this isn't really important to the analogy.
    OK, that was awesomely done.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    NS: I continue to be baffled by predictions that Minrah's going to get Stuffed in the Fridge. It would be such a weird, dissonant story beat.
    I have read that as theoretical musings about dwarven afterlives as applied to specific situation, not as prediction that it is likely to happen. I may be wrong.

  30. - Top - End - #180
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Shirow View Post
    The problem with this interpretation is that it could easily be abused in actual play. You could very easily cast it on your willing barbarian who will forfeit her save and then you can send her to hack away at all the enemy casters, who then would not get a save.

    Everyone should be getting a save/SR or they game grinds to a screeching halt because of a low level spell. But yeah the way the spell rules are written is ambiguous. Though there might be something like a general rule for magic Area of Effect that you're supposed to assume whenever you read those. At least in 3.5e?
    I imagine a very significant reason this doesn’t happen is because this means the casters won’t have anything to do on their turn(which is unfun) and also because many enemies tend to be very formidable without casting spells(and in fact may be even more dangerous because your casters can’t cast either.

    That being said, if a Cerebremancer PC at my table tried to do this I’d be sent to the ER from Critical Lactose Intolerance from the sheer cheese.
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