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  1. - Top - End - #181
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by arimareiji View Post
    I think it's a safe bet none of this will happen, but a variety of epic hijinks could ensue.

    Big nasty fight with a sonic-type who's kicking their butts until Greyview shows up.

    Big nasty fight with a tank-type. Xykon quickly figures out the source of the Silence and ends Greyview's existence on this plane, because otherwise they're screwed plus he's just that impatient. (Definitely don't want this happening, I like Greyview and Oona.)

    Or... no fight. Slapstick charades ensue, with a Lassie joke certain and Greyview biting the culprit.
    Call me a killjoy if you see that fit, but ”Greyview explains to Oona with facial expressions and gestures and without much difficulty that Team Evil should follow him; Redcloak realizes immediately that the clerics are somewhere behind them; he lags behind as Oona and Greyview begin to move back towards the door until he's out of range; he dispels the silence spell; and off they go” sounds a lot more likely than ”Team Evil almost dies and then X. kills Greyview.”
    Also, I don't expect that we are going to see how Greyview delivers the message.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    (NS: I continue to be baffled by predictions that Minrah's going to get Stuffed in the Fridge. It would be such a weird, dissonant story beat.)
    While I find the idea that Minrah is soon to die less than feasible, I would presume that those who believe Minrah will die base that assumption on the fact thet she is not a core member of the Order, and (according to the Giant) not a member of the main cast, either. As such, she is indeed a more likely candidate for getting killed were Team Evil to demonstrate that they are still a deadly threat than any member of the Order (including Belkar). Needless to say, since we know well enough what Team Evil and its individual members are capable of, such a demonstration would be largely gratuitous.

  2. - Top - End - #182
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    Everyone gets a save as they enter the area of effect of the spell. If they make their save they are unaffected by the spell (they can make noise, in this case).

    If only the target got a save and it affected everyone else in the area regardless of their own saves, then the common tactic would be to cast it on the low level minion standing next to the high-level spellcaster, or on the floor tile the spellcaster is standing on, or some other work-around that completely negates the real target of the spell's high saving throws.
    That first part... that's not how the spell works at all o.o
    And that second part? That's exactly the common tactic.

    I'm not sure what spell you're thinking of, but your complaint is perfectly wrong, as you describe the use of the spell as your assumed-wrong scenario.
    Silence only has one save, at the start, and only if you casted it on a living being or an item held by someone wanting to resist it.
    You can even cast it on yourself, or an object you're holding, with no save at all. Then move with the silence around you, or throw the item where you want the center of "silence" to be...
    Even better to cast it on your melee-based ally, who'd then go melee the casters XD
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  3. - Top - End - #183
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ZiggyGuy View Post
    That first part... that's not how the spell works at all o.o
    And that second part? That's exactly the common tactic.
    Yes, I realized that about 3 pages ago. I'm going back and deleting that post.

  4. - Top - End - #184
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by EyethatBinds View Post
    Is this comic going to be added to the archive list any time soon?

    What do you mean?
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  5. - Top - End - #185
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Shirow View Post
    The problem with this interpretation is that it could easily be abused in actual play. You could very easily cast it on your willing barbarian who will forfeit her save and then you can send her to hack away at all the enemy casters, who then would not get a save.
    Yes, that is how the rules work. It is not an interpretation, but the intended effect of the spell.

    I think you're overreacting. Having a silinced team member going against enemy casters is a good tactic but it does not cause the game to grind "to a screeching halt" nor is it a fail-safe shutdown against casters.

  6. - Top - End - #186
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacky720 View Post
    Team Evil has a collection of a few hundred prisoners dungeons, of whom they believe one knows is the location of the Gate. Each night, they interrogate crawl a few prisoners dungeons and then shoot paint them to keep track of them, becuse they're Evil. While the others are heading home, MitD shoots paints a few extra prisoners doors with the same gun paint, which is really crappy and has to be replaced every few nights,* but is of a common model formula, before rejoining them.

    When Team Evil uses Speak With Dead on re-enters a corpse dungeon (which they believe to know be the location of two escaping dwarf clerics) to realize some of the corpses doors were not interrogated cleared, do they suspect MitD?

    Also, how many people have blue eyes and what do you ask the guard who always lies?

    * This clause may be optional as the paint-making methods have not been described and are possibly magical, which would guarantee a more consistent makeup. Actually, a lot of this isn't really important to the analogy.
    This the point where an analogy is pointless because this is just the situation (ignoring of course any other suspects some but not all people believe are valid) but with murder.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    I recognize that Conservation of Detail is Overrated, but I find the event that I am using as evidence for my theory above important enough/given enough focus to qualify for what I call Elan’s Exception, “Who wastes perfectly good foreshadowing like that?”. Also I have never correctly predicted any event in any piece of media so take this theory with a grain of salt (I call this Peelee’s Ye Old Reminder).

  7. - Top - End - #187
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Assuming they run into a door that wasn't cleared, Team Evil is probably going to suspect Team Good of sabotaging the doors if anyone.

    All the evidence just lines up too nicely from Team Evil's perspective for it to be anyone else.

    The sudden appearance of the dwarves whom seem well prepared and more at-ease then maybe they should for their current situation.
    Like they had ample time to prepare and selected this exact moment to make their move.

    How the trail would be leading to a false marked door in the first place.
    It is more believable it was planned on the part of Team Good instead of just random coincidence.
    Follow that up with the dwarves sending a silenced Greyview in right afterwards... this totally looks like an intentional set-up by Team Good.

    I don't think X would ever suspect MitD.
    RC may... but his distrust/hatred for other races is going to be a block preventing him from coming to that conclusion.
    Team Evil is probably going to fall victim to the Correlation Equals Causation Fallacy and Confirmation Bias Fallacy.

    Also, would it be impossible for anyone to steal some paint to sabotage the marks?
    I don't remember where it is being stored.
    Maybe a well prepared rogue with spells buffing could make that possible?
    This could be the conclusion RC come to.
    Last edited by mashlagoo1982; 2020-10-20 at 10:26 AM.
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  8. - Top - End - #188
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Even if Xykon and/or Redcloak suspect the MitD of marking unexplored doors, there's always the question whether or not they could do anything against it. My money is on the "MitD is a young Tarrasque" theory, and in that case, Team Evil would need a Wish spell to rid themselves of the MitD. And while Xykon would certainly be powerful enough to cast Wish, there is no indication at all he has it on his spell list, especially since Wish is pretty much narrative-breaking like True Resurrection.

  9. - Top - End - #189
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by mashlagoo1982 View Post
    How the trail would be leading to a false marked door in the first place.
    It is more believable it was planned on the part of Team Good instead of just random coincidence.
    Why would that be planned? If anything, that immediately lets Team Evil know that the markings are unreliable, instead of letting them believe they are reliable for an unknown amount of time in the future. It's actively detrimental to Team Good to let them know, assuming Team Good painted them.
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  10. - Top - End - #190
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Yendor View Post
    It would be ironic if Minrah's plan ended up getting Redcloak killed. Very unlikely, but still.
    I realize it's exceedingly unlikely, but I kind of love the idea of Redcloak dying and Durkon having to raise him right after Redcloak tried to kill him.

  11. - Top - End - #191
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Riarra View Post
    I realize it's exceedingly unlikely, but I kind of love the idea of Redcloak dying and Durkon having to raise him right after Redcloak tried to kill him.
    That’s an interesting idea... Redcloak would have had a talk with his boss.
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2020-10-20 at 11:48 AM.

  12. - Top - End - #192
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by mashlagoo1982 View Post
    Assuming they run into a door that wasn't cleared, Team Evil is probably going to suspect Team Good of sabotaging the doors if anyone.
    Or maybe team evil decides they’re random doors, opening to a different inter-dimensional dungeon each time you open them.

    Or maybe team evil decides the dungeons repopulate much more quickly than they realized.

    Or maybe team evil decides that the unreliable dope with the paint can who paints doors has painted the doors in an unreliable and dopey way.

    Or maybe team evil will decide some other bugbear has been painting doors too, because they don’t want their favorite hunting ground messed with.

    Or maybe team evil dies, and for the rest of the book is OotS has to figure out how to save the world without them.

    What I’m saying is there are hundreds of potential “what next” scenarios, and choosing between either “team evil decides OotS did it” or “team evil decides MitD betrayed them” as the only options is a false dichotomy.
    Last edited by Dion; 2020-10-20 at 11:36 AM.

  13. - Top - End - #193
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    : Durkon, didn't I tell you not that long ago that our one single advantage we possess is the element of surprise?

  14. - Top - End - #194
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Why would that be planned? If anything, that immediately lets Team Evil know that the markings are unreliable, instead of letting them believe they are reliable for an unknown amount of time in the future. It's actively detrimental to Team Good to let them know, assuming Team Good painted them.
    I must not have made myself clear, so I will attempt again.

    From the perspective of Team Evil, this could look like an attempt from Team Good to bump them off.

    All the facts are easily aligned to fit that narrative from their perspective.
    Even if Team Evil think back to their past discrepancies (where they started thinking they must have gone into more dungeons but didn't remember doing so), this could look like a trap long in the making that is being sprung now.

    How would the good guys know this dungeon was sabotaged and contains super high level monsters still?
    Obviously the good guys marked it themselves and just remembered its location as part of their plan.

    How would the good guys know when to make contact with RC?
    They were watching Team Evil.

    Why are these dwarves so brazen with their behavior and relatively unconcerned with their current situation?
    Because they put in the time and effort to orchestrated events and lead Team Evil into a scenario that would benefit Team Good.
    One even shouted at RC "This is a bad plan we planned for!"

    Team Evil could easily and incorrectly leap to the conclusion that Team Good has been watching their actions for sometime and planned this moment to tip their hand with hopes that Team Evil is killed.
    Both of RC and X have huge flaws that could play into this assumption.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    Or maybe team evil decides they’re random doors, opening to a different inter-dimensional dungeon each time you open them.

    Or maybe team evil decides the dungeons repopulate much more quickly than they realized.

    Or maybe team evil decides that the unreliable dope with the paint can who paints doors has painted the doors in an unreliable and dopey way.

    Or maybe team evil will decide some other bugbear has been painting doors too, because they don’t want their favorite hunting ground messed with.

    Or maybe team evil dies, and for the rest of the book is OotS has to figure out how to save the world without them.

    What I’m saying is there are hundreds of potential “what next” scenarios, and choosing between either “team evil decides OotS did it” or “team evil decides MitD betrayed them” as the only options is a false dichotomy.
    Which is why I used the language "if anyone".
    Last edited by mashlagoo1982; 2020-10-20 at 12:55 PM.
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  15. - Top - End - #195
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Sorry for the double post.
    Last edited by mashlagoo1982; 2020-10-20 at 12:21 PM.
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  16. - Top - End - #196
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    If Silence is cast on a person/creature, and that person/creature is killed, does the spell end? That is, is the spell attached to the body or to some kind of philosophical essence of the being?

  17. - Top - End - #197

    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombimode View Post
    Yes, that is how the rules work. It is not an interpretation, but the intended effect of the spell.

    I think you're overreacting. Having a silinced team member going against enemy casters is a good tactic but it does not cause the game to grind "to a screeching halt" nor is it a fail-safe shutdown against casters.
    Yeah. Silent Spell is a feat designed pretty much to shut this tactic down. Similar with Still Spell. Or you just put a spell in a spell completion item that doesn't need a command word (Ring of Spell Storing, for example).

    It's very hard to inconvenience spellcasters for more than a round or two.

    edit:
    If Silence is cast on a person/creature, and that person/creature is killed, does the spell end? That is, is the spell attached to the body or to some kind of philosophical essence of the being?
    The spell sticks around for the remainder of its duration, which is short enough to not worry about.
    Last edited by Rogar Demonblud; 2020-10-20 at 12:25 PM.

  18. - Top - End - #198
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by mashlagoo1982 View Post
    Both of RC and X have huge flaws that could play into this assumption.
    Redcloak was certainly sure that the Sapphire Guard knew more than they did. This might have gotten reinforced by the encounter near Girard's recently destroyed gate (when Redcloak summoned the silicon elemental ...)
    As seen by team evil:
    Pesky heroes annoy them near Durokan's gate (flawed TE assumption being that they were there to mess with the gate or take it from Xykon)
    Pesky heroes try to defeat Xykon/stop him from taking the gate that Miko ultimately destroyed. (Failed, granted, but certainly tried)
    Pesky Heroes are there when Girard's gate blows up, leaving but one gate for TE ... which TE get to... and WTF, these pesky and annoying heroes are doing it again, getting in the way of TE using the gate for their own purposes.

    Xykon and TE can certainly see that trend as part of a larger plan, regardless of whether TE get or don't get the correct reasons behind that plan.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2020-10-20 at 12:38 PM.
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  19. - Top - End - #199
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Re: how much Team Evil might guess about the MITD's plan to mark doors

    I haven't been trying to follow the convoluted metaphors in this discussion, but if Team Evil encounters monsters here, they have only enough evidence to say that one door was marked incorrectly — this one that they went in.

    We know that the MITD has been marking multiple doors. We know that Redcloak has been making calculated assumptions based on their average completion rate.

    If we're attempting to declare that it's more or less likely that Team Evil guesses that anyone has been marking doors, plural, then we have to get to the moment of realization that doors, plural, are marked wrong.
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  20. - Top - End - #200
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Olinser View Post
    Although at this point I still think that there is some kind of combination lock on the Gate - it's not about an individual door, it's about a specific combination of doors, opening in sequence, that gets you to the Gate.
    Maybe you have to spell out "Sacrifice Forgotten" with open doors.
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  21. - Top - End - #201
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    Yeah. Silent Spell is a feat designed pretty much to shut this tactic down. Similar with Still Spell. Or you just put a spell in a spell completion item that doesn't need a command word (Ring of Spell Storing, for example).

    It's very hard to inconvenience spellcasters for more than a round or two.

    edit:

    The spell sticks around for the remainder of its duration, which is short enough to not worry about.
    Yeah, my misinterpretation comes from the the very limited number of spell slots characters will have at the time this spell will become available. Which to me also limits access to metamagic feats like silent spell. So it felt like an overpowered effect for a level 2 spell. At least I learned something new, better late than never.
    Having the ranger etc. guard the casters seems way more important during the low levels now.

  22. - Top - End - #202
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by One Skunk Todd View Post
    Maybe you have to spell out "Sacrifice Forgotten" with open doors.
    Or "Mellon" since this is a self aware stick figure comic ...

    OBTW: I like your idea.
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  23. - Top - End - #203
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Ah, our dearest Durkon is always so thoughtful.

  24. - Top - End - #204
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Shirow View Post
    Yeah, my misinterpretation comes from the the very limited number of spell slots characters will have at the time this spell will become available. Which to me also limits access to metamagic feats like silent spell. So it felt like an overpowered effect for a level 2 spell. At least I learned something new, better late than never.
    Having the ranger etc. guard the casters seems way more important during the low levels now.
    Wizards and sorcerers don't have a ton of feats, though, and wizards need to anticipate which spells they'd need silent. A metamagic rod comes in handy for this, though.

    Still, a spell that makes a hostile caster unable to cast his spells on you for two rounds is a great investment. Especially if it requires such a low level slot.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Yeah. Unfortunately, it doesn't do anything about the caster's friends with their shiny metal sticks.

  26. - Top - End - #206
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MaverickMopete View Post
    : Durkon, didn't I tell you not that long ago that our one single advantage we possess is the element of surprise?
    Roy, you of all people should know better than to rely on ANY of the Order, including you, to be capable of making plan A work from start to finish without shenanigans, unexpected turns of fate, or at least one (eu)catastrophe.

    If anything, Durkon is acting in the proper OOTS tradition of running away from the threat. Just be glad the whole party's still alive to disappoint you.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by PattThe View Post
    Imagine Haley and Elan vs Team Evil.. What could those two even hope to do?
    Elan vs Team Evil
    Elan: Hi! I'm Elan!
    Redcloak:... And?
    Elan: I'm a bard. I can, like, sing and stuff.
    Redcloak:...
    Elan: And I wondered if... I dunno... You needed something put into a song?
    Redcloak: Why would I want a song...
    Elan: Maybe a historic epic about goblinoid triumphs, or something.
    Redcloak: no, no, I'm not having humans capitalising on our cultural...
    Elan: Oh, goblinoid musical cultures? Like Bugbear Throat Singing, or Hobgoblin Battle Hymns?
    Redcloak: I... Wait you know about them?
    Elan: I don't normally play them, I'm very aware of appropriation. But if you have any Goblin Bards, then I could teach them what I've learnt and restore the cultural heritage that was lost.
    Redcloak: I don't get it, what's in it for you?
    Elan: Um, I'm a bard? We take lessons in how to be fifth wheels in other people's storylines.

    Haley vs Team Evil
    Redcloak: Where's my holy symbol?
    Xykon: Has anyone seen my shoes?
    MitD: Didn't you used to have a belt for that robe?
    Xykon: And has anyone seen the idiots umbrella? This scene can only exist in transcript without it!

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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Riftwolf View Post
    Elan: Um, I'm a bard? We take lessons in how to be fifth wheels in other people's storylines.
    Which reminds me, I can't wait for the next Witcher season.
    Quote Originally Posted by Riftwolf View Post
    Haley vs Team Evil
    Redcloak: Where's my holy symbol?
    Xykon: Has anyone seen my shoes?
    MitD: Didn't you used to have a belt for that robe?
    Xykon: And has anyone seen the idiots umbrella? This scene can only exist in transcript without it!
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  29. - Top - End - #209
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by mashlagoo1982 View Post
    I must not have made myself clear, so I will attempt again.

    From the perspective of Team Evil, this could look like an attempt from Team Good to bump them off.

    All the facts are easily aligned to fit that narrative from their perspective.
    Even if Team Evil think back to their past discrepancies (where they started thinking they must have gone into more dungeons but didn't remember doing so), this could look like a trap long in the making that is being sprung now.

    How would the good guys know this dungeon was sabotaged and contains super high level monsters still?
    Obviously the good guys marked it themselves and just remembered its location as part of their plan.

    How would the good guys know when to make contact with RC?
    They were watching Team Evil.

    Why are these dwarves so brazen with their behavior and relatively unconcerned with their current situation?
    Because they put in the time and effort to orchestrated events and lead Team Evil into a scenario that would benefit Team Good.
    One even shouted at RC "This is a bad plan we planned for!"

    Team Evil could easily and incorrectly leap to the conclusion that Team Good has been watching their actions for sometime and planned this moment to tip their hand with hopes that Team Evil is killed.
    Both of RC and X have huge flaws that could play into this assumption.
    That's a terrible plan, though.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    I am reminded, by your post, of the movie The Usual Suspects and for how long who Keyser Söze was remained a mystery even to the cast.
    Spoiler: rumors of cast confusion
    Show
    (There was a story going around a few years back that Gabriel Byrne was convinced that Keyser Söze was his character, in the end).
    Spoiler: Usual Suspects
    Show
    That's sound odd to me since ever when i first watch it i never believed Byrne's character would be Söse. The movie and notably Palminteri's character are just pushing too hard toward it, i knew clearly it would be someone else.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gallowglass View Post
    Yes. Yes that, uh, is the common tactic. That's exactly how the spell is used.
    Indeed. The one reason people don't always use it, it's because it can hinder your own spellcasters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Olinser View Post
    It's interesting to me that this is actually a confirmation that Greyview can actually SPEAK Common. We'd only seen him really talking to Oona and MiTD before, I was actually kind of under the impression that he could only be understood by those 2 and that was a clue to MiTD's nature.
    That was also my impression for a long time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopeless View Post
    Just a thought but can Mordenkainen's Fantastic Mansion be used to simulate everything we've been witnessing from all those various doors?
    You're thinking about Maze or Hallucinatory Terrain, but none of them has such a powerful effect.

    So when that wolf reaches the others and they quickly realise he's the focus of a silence spell Xykon being a sorceror will spend sorcery points to cast
    No. You're thinking 5E Sorcerers. In 3.5, Sorcerers didn't have Sorcery points and had to pay for metamagic with upper spell slots like everyone, and needed to first have the feat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goblin_Priest View Post
    I'm pretty sure prestidigitation would cover "make an X in paint".
    Every effect other that cleaning and soiling last for only one hour. That includes painting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Riarra View Post
    I realize it's exceedingly unlikely, but I kind of love the idea of Redcloak dying and Durkon having to raise him right after Redcloak tried to kill him.
    Couldn't the Order put the Cloak on a low-level bugbear shaman who would be more willing to discuss and try to carry a message to TDO?
    Last edited by Petrocorus; 2020-10-20 at 07:46 PM.
    Que tous les anciens dieux et les nouveaux protègent la France.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam K View Post
    Sun Tzu never had tier problems. If he had to deal with D&D, the Art of War would read "Full casters or GTFO".
    Quote Originally Posted by King Louis XIII in The Musketeers
    Common sense is for commoners, not for [ PC ].

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