OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

[pendell]

Couldn't the Order put the Cloak on a low-level bugbear shaman who would be more willing to discuss and try to carry a message to TDO?

The Order doesn't yet know how the cloak works, to my knowledge. For the second problem, there's no guarantee a low-level shaman would cooperate any more than the current bearer would. For a third, the bearer still has to level up to gain spell levels, and it could take a long time before they were in a position to use a ninth-level spell slot.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Jacky720]

This the point where an analogy is pointless because this is just the situation (ignoring of course any other suspects some but not all people believe are valid) but with murder.

And the problem with that would be..?

...don't answer that. Is it "because the point of using an analogy is to simplify the situation"? I could definitely cut a lot of the irrelevant crap from that. Is it "because the point of using an analogy is to use more familiar terms that people can mentally convert back (like a Fourier transform)"? I don't see how guns are more familiar than paint buckets, and in any case that applied to the original analogy too- Or was it the direct inclusion of Team Evil and Speak With Dead that ruined the immersion in those familiar terms? Was it the first one because even though I could cut it down, I didn't, so it still ruins the point? Actually, I agree with analogy definition 2 but... what IS the point of an analogy?

[Anitar]

[SPOILER=Usual Suspects]
Every effect other that cleaning and soiling last for only one hour. That includes painting.

Soil it with bloodstains in the shape of an X.

[Petrocorus]

The Order doesn't yet know how the cloak works, to my knowledge.

I'm a bit fuzzy on what the Order know about the Cloak.
Between what Hinjo may have told about it, and what Thor told Durkon, they may know how it work, but i'm certainly not sur.

For the second problem, there's no guarantee a low-level shaman would cooperate any more than the current bearer would.

Well, facing high level adventurer that just killed the previous bearer may at least make him ready to listen.

For a third, the bearer still has to level up to gain spell levels, and it could take a long time before they were in a position to use a ninth-level spell slot.

Not sure why the Order would need him to cast a ninth level spell. What they need is for him to try to talk to the Dark One. I think praying could do the trick. Maybe an Augury spell can be used, by phrasing the question right.

[understatement]

I'm a bit fuzzy on what the Order know about the Cloak.
Between what Hinjo may have told about it, and what Thor told Durkon, they may know how it work, but i'm certainly not sur.

They are unlikely to know beyond the ritual aspects. Also, the cloak isn't needed for the rift-sealing ritual.

Well, facing high level adventurer that just killed the previous bearer may at least make him ready to listen.


Not sure why the Order would need him to cast a ninth level spell. What they need is for him to try to talk to the Dark One. I think praying could do the trick. Maybe an Augury spell can be used, by phrasing the question right.

Good for the shaman, but he's not powerful enough. It's not about the TDO receiving this information (he, in fact, could be witnessing the negotiation) it's about the mortal themself having enough power to channel a 9th level equivelent into sealing the rifts. Only mortals can permanently seal the rifts without the world needing to be destroyed, and pretty much only Redcloak has the power.

[Chijinda]

Not sure why the Order would need him to cast a ninth level spell. What they need is for him to try to talk to the Dark One. I think praying could do the trick. Maybe an Augury spell can be used, by phrasing the question right.

Thor mentions that to seal the rift, they need Redcloak to contribute a 9th level spell slot.

[KorvinStarmast]

[QUOTE=Petrocorus;24763336]

Spoiler: Usual Suspects

Show

That's sound odd to me since ever when i first watch it i never believed Byrne's character would be Söse. The movie and notably Palminteri's character are just pushing too hard toward it, i knew clearly it would be someone else.

I read an article some years back about the tight time schedule and how it was shot out of sequence; it would be quite believable that until it was edited and cut, the actors themselves would not quite know how it all fit together (except perhaps Spacey, since he seemed to have been a bit of a catalyst in getting other actors to buy into it ... but that may be more rumor than fact)

[Dion]

That's a terrible plan, though.

Then it must be right!

[Petrocorus]

Thor mentions that to seal the rift, they need Redcloak to contribute a 9th level spell slot.

I stand corrected.

[danielxcutter]

Elan vs Team Evil
Elan: Hi! I'm Elan!
Redcloak:... And?
Elan: I'm a bard. I can, like, sing and stuff.
Redcloak:...
Elan: And I wondered if... I dunno... You needed something put into a song?
Redcloak: Why would I want a song...
Elan: Maybe a historic epic about goblinoid triumphs, or something.
Redcloak: no, no, I'm not having humans capitalising on our cultural...
Elan: Oh, goblinoid musical cultures? Like Bugbear Throat Singing, or Hobgoblin Battle Hymns?
Redcloak: I... Wait you know about them?
Elan: I don't normally play them, I'm very aware of appropriation. But if you have any Goblin Bards, then I could teach them what I've learnt and restore the cultural heritage that was lost.
Redcloak: I don't get it, what's in it for you?
Elan: Um, I'm a bard? We take lessons in how to be fifth wheels in other people's storylines.

Haley vs Team Evil
Redcloak: Where's my holy symbol?
Xykon: Has anyone seen my shoes?
MitD: Didn't you used to have a belt for that robe?
Xykon: And has anyone seen the idiots umbrella? This scene can only exist in transcript without it!

*wheezes hysterically*

[bunsen_h]

To add to the incipient confusion: Shortly before Greyview joins Xykon, Redcloak, and Oona, they will experience the effects of the Silence spell. But they believe that Durkon and Minrah are in the dungeon with them, and will assume that the Silence will have been cast by them from inside the dungeon.

[Wraithfighter]

My thoughts on this are based on, well, that this is a Story, its fine for contrivances to happen if they benefit the story, particularly if they're well executed.

We already know that Team Evil is very likely heading into a fight in the cave. This seems likely to be Chekov's Gun firing off, a reason why mispainting the door is so key (beyond MITD's general path towards the good guys continuing).

Grayview could've easily just followed Oona in if Team Evil was unlikely to be bothered by the enemies in the cave. Him sprinting towards them with a caster-negating spell effect when they're in hostile territory seems tailor made for a bit of chaotic conflict.

And Chekov has another gun loaded and primed: Xykon's Phylactery. Xykon thinks its in a planar prison, but it got swapped out with an imposter by Redcloak. The whereabouts of it are currently unknown, but also probably not too close at hand, too great a risk of Xykon discovering the swap if its kept near the Lich (where Redcloak's going to be).

And finally... Team Evil isn't the main villain. Oh, they're a major enemy that needs to be stopped. But there's also the IFCC and what their plans are (which, who knows!). We have the wildcards in the unknown pair that spirited away Lien and O'chul. And there's, well, the real Big Threat: The Snarl... or whatever it is now. That's the thing we know the least about, because between the lore of the Sapphire Guard, the infernal knowledge of the IFCC, and the even the Gods themselves... none of them seem to have a clue about what's going on behind those rifts, and what's the deal with the planet within.

So, my theory? It's........ well, I dunno, exactly. But I'd wager one of four things is going to happen, because I'm a coward and I like hedging my bets:

1. Due to Grayview's arrival, Xykon and Redcloak's spells fail at the wrong moment, and Xykon's body is destroyed... leaving Redcloak's secret revealed, putting the Goblin on a race to either destroy the Phylactery or seek shelter before a pissed-off Xykon comes a calling.
2. Somehow, the MITD's betrayal is unveiled, leading to chaos there (but feels too minor and doesn't account for enough Chekov's Guns ready to fire).
3. They stumble upon the final Gate and either Team Evil grasps some great truth about the Snarl or, as a result of Grayview's unexpected arrival disrupting a winnable battle, the Gate is destroyed, starting to unveil things all by itself.
4. Rich is just ****ing with us all with all this set-up and it's going to be a comedic beat where Team Evil sorts everything out on their end fine, they actually did explore that tunnel already, but are still unable to catch up to the Dwarves who escape back to the party for round 2.

...option 4 just feels like a good fall-back for potentially overthinking things. But gun to my head? I think Option 1. It disrupts Team Evil, giving the IFCC their chance to make their play while the heroes deal with the Wild Card Ghosties.

[arimareiji]

To add to the incipient confusion: Shortly before Greyview joins Xykon, Redcloak, and Oona, they will experience the effects of the Silence spell. But they believe that Durkon and Minrah are in the dungeon with them, and will assume that the Silence will have been cast by them from inside the dungeon.

Nice point.

For anyone wondering, I still think this resulting in an extremely weird game of charades with Greyview will never happen but would be fun. (How would you play charades when no one can speak, anyway?)

[Rinazina]

The Order doesn't yet know how the cloak works, to my knowledge. For the second problem, there's no guarantee a low-level shaman would cooperate any more than the current bearer would. For a third, the bearer still has to level up to gain spell levels, and it could take a long time before they were in a position to use a ninth-level spell slot.

I just got a strange vision...

we need someone with a 9 level spell slot,
we need someone willing to collaborate and likely to sacrifice their current life, for this Thor-plan.

that person is:

F.A.Q. (I mean, nobody ever asked them. I'm just assuming now):

Hir has still to revindicate all the XP for the familicide, yes, we remember panel three, and emphasis on very unlikely. We talk about one-quarter of all the black dragons globally, plus the humanoids related to Draketooth.

Hir current life plan is already screwed up precisely because of familicide. What complete utter sacrifice is, to fry everything you are and give up what you work for?

For the rule of narration, the XP of a high-level wizard can be converted in a high-level priest because of the crimson mantle artifact.

the order does not know anything about the crimson mantle, but Durkon would commute with Thor and/or other Godly faction will join this, make proper estimations, and YOLO vaarsuvius, wear it!

[Aasimar]

You know what would have been clever?

Closing the door.

[danielxcutter]

I just got a strange vision...

we need someone with a 9 level spell slot,
we need someone willing to collaborate and likely to sacrifice their current life, for this Thor-plan.

that person is:

F.A.Q. (I mean, nobody ever asked them. I'm just assuming now):

Hir has still to revindicate all the XP for the familicide, yes, we remember panel three, and emphasis on very unlikely. We talk about one-quarter of all the black dragons globally, plus the humanoids related to Draketooth.

Hir current life plan is already screwed up precisely because of familicide. What complete utter sacrifice is, to fry everything you are and give up what you work for?

For the rule of narration, the XP of a high-level wizard can be converted in a high-level priest because of the crimson mantle artifact.

the order does not know anything about the crimson mantle, but Durkon would commute with Thor and/or other Godly faction will join this, make proper estimations, and YOLO vaarsuvius, wear it!

Please tell me this is just a joke. I hate people trying to write Redcloak out of the story, or at least a lot of the motivations behind doing so.

[Rinazina]

Please tell me this is just a joke. I hate people trying to write Redcloak out of the story, or at least a lot of the motivations behind doing so.

Yes, of course, is a joke. We are page 3+ of the comments; what you expect ?
Still, i don't exclude Redclock might die before the Snarl threat gets solved.

Also, I want to goblin be free and integrated and would be, even in a fantasy scenario, impossible all the worldwide cultures accept a new level of fairness towards them - without all the pantheon agreeing on this-.

Redclock it is not meant to be part of the solution in this plan; he is the one that makes the problem mainstream.

[danielxcutter]

Yes, of course, is a joke. We are page 3+ of the comments; what you expect ?
Still, i don't exclude Redclock might die before the Snarl threat gets solved.

Also, I want to goblin be free and integrated and would be, even in a fantasy scenario, impossible all the worldwide cultures accept a new level of fairness towards them - without all the pantheon agreeing on this-.

Redclock it is not meant to be part of the solution in this plan; he is the one that makes the problem mainstream.

Unless the Giant decides to end this on a depressing “and the cycle was never broken” note, I doubt that. Yes, Redcloak has committed numerous atrocities. But he is a far more complex character than that and ignoring all that potential to pull a Deus Ex Machina out of Rich’s ass would be stupid.

There have been people unironically saying that everything Redcloak represents is objectively wrong and therefore he needs to be taken out with extreme (and presumably speciesist) prejudice and I do not like that. And I’m not particularly fond of “maybe the goblins are oppressed but Redcloak still needs to die” either because that much of that still smacks of “Redcloak is a villain and therefore he is wrong and is unforgivable”.

[Goblin_Priest]

They are unlikely to know beyond the ritual aspects. Also, the cloak isn't needed for the rift-sealing ritual.

It isn't? I don't think we know that. I suspect that the cloak acts as some sort of divine focus for the ritual. While it's entirely possible that the cloak simply gives all the required knowledge to the bearer, that remains once removed, D&D items tend not to do that, because... well... you could just pass the cloak around to everyone to give everyone the perk.

The ritual is god-level, though it requires mortal spellcasting as components. I'm not inclined to believe the god-given cloak artifact is optional.

And finally... Team Evil isn't the main villain. Oh, they're a major enemy that needs to be stopped. But there's also the IFCC and what their plans are (which, who knows!). We have the wildcards in the unknown pair that spirited away Lien and O'chul. And there's, well, the real Big Threat: The Snarl... or whatever it is now. That's the thing we know the least about, because between the lore of the Sapphire Guard, the infernal knowledge of the IFCC, and the even the Gods themselves... none of them seem to have a clue about what's going on behind those rifts, and what's the deal with the planet within.

Wait, what? They aren't?

The Snarl is more of a plot device than a villain. We even have a load of evidence that it isn't even a villain, or at least not exactly as it's described to be.

Without Team Evil to jeopardize the gates, the Snarl isn't really significant. The Order can't even do anything about the rifts without Team Evil's Redcloak.

I'm not sure at which point the IFCC will swoop in to become meaningful, and what their foreshadowing will unfold into, but I can't fathom the thought of the Order defeating Team Evil and then the story continuing for a bunch more books, equating Xykon with Nale, basically.

[Rinazina]

[...] Yes, Redcloak has committed numerous atrocities. But he is a far more complex character than that and ignoring all that potential to pull a Deus Ex Machina out of Rich’s ass would be stupid.
[...] And I’m not particularly fond of “maybe the goblins are oppressed but Redcloak still needs to die” either because that much of that still smacks of “Redcloak is a villain and therefore he is wrong and is unforgivable”.

I feel you, and the coffee mug 'resistance' is indeed a good auspice, but, I don't know, really Redclock might end up collaborating with the Order and do what Thor expect? I mean, a strategy spoken out of loud can't work even if it seems so.

Also, are the last 15 strips to show the most lower starting point of a new possible scenario? Maybe, but I hardly expect so.

[mashlagoo1982]

That's a terrible plan, though.

Maybe, but I have bore witness to plans that would be considered much worse and still produced good results.

How bad the plan would be if it were the action OotS was taking isn't really relevant.
I'm just pointing out that this seems to be a more likely interpretation of the situation Team Evil would arrive at if they were to blame the incorrectly marked door on anyone.

Team Evil: Why is this door marked wrong? Probably the heroes did it as part of this trap.

Also, depending on many factors, this may actually be a good plan.

[Rinazina]

It isn't? I don't think we know that. I suspect that the cloak acts as some sort of divine focus for the ritual.

Let me nip-tick a bit. The subject of understatement was "sealing ritual," and the cloak isn't required to do that. Be a priest of the dark one is because of quiddity color. The cloak is indeed necessary for the second half of the week(s?)-long ritual that moves the gate.

[danielxcutter]

I feel you, and the coffee mug 'resistance' is indeed a good auspice, but, I don't know, really Redclock might end up collaborating with the Order and do what Thor expect? I mean, a strategy spoken out of loud can't work even if it seems so.

And will Xykon get control of the Gates because the Order has planned to do so on-panel? I doubt that. It’s the same thing really; the plan not working doesn’t mean the protagonists still can’t manage to achieve their objectives some how in another way.

Also, are the last 15 strips to show the most lower starting point of a new possible scenario? Maybe, but I hardly expect so.

I dunno, we’ll have to see.

[Peelee]

Maybe, but I have bore witness to plans that would be considered much worse and still produced good results.

Truth is stranger than fiction. The real world doesn't need to make sense. Stories do.

How bad the plan would be if it were the action OotS was taking isn't really relevant.

It is incredibly relevant, since how bad the plan is directly reflects the likelihood that it is true.

I'm just pointing out that this seems to be a more likely interpretation of the situation Team Evil would arrive at if they were to blame the incorrectly marked door on anyone.

Its not more likely, though. That's my point.

Team Evil: Why is this door marked wrong? Probably the heroes did it as part of this trap.

Team Evil: I've seen better plans in the M. C. Escher Functional Architecture school. This can't be their doing.

Also, depending on many factors, this may actually be a good plan.

Depending on many factors, the Order going home and trusting Redcloak to eventually do the right thing may actually be a good plan. But as of what we know right now, that's a terrible plan.

[danielxcutter]

Who’s M. C. Escher?

[understatement]

Unless the Giant decides to end this on a depressing “and the cycle was never broken” note, I doubt that. Yes, Redcloak has committed numerous atrocities. But he is a far more complex character than that and ignoring all that potential to pull a Deus Ex Machina out of Rich’s ass would be stupid.

There have been people unironically saying that everything Redcloak represents is objectively wrong and therefore he needs to be taken out with extreme (and presumably speciesist) prejudice and I do not like that. And I’m not particularly fond of “maybe the goblins are oppressed but Redcloak still needs to die” either because that much of that still smacks of “Redcloak is a villain and therefore he is wrong and is unforgivable”.

+1.

Incidentally, if Redcloak did die he would really get away with his crimes, considering he just goes straight to his god's domain.

It isn't? I don't think we know that. I suspect that the cloak acts as some sort of divine focus for the ritual. While it's entirely possible that the cloak simply gives all the required knowledge to the bearer, that remains once removed, D&D items tend not to do that, because... well... you could just pass the cloak around to everyone to give everyone the perk.

The ritual is god-level, though it requires mortal spellcasting as components. I'm not inclined to believe the god-given cloak artifact is optional.

Rinazina already answered this, but I'm pretty sure the rift-sealing ritual has nothing to do with the rift-warping ritual.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Who’s M. C. Escher?

Famous guy whose drawings either are visual paradoxes, or blend into each other (not to sell the guy short, he also has other drawings and works that don't fit into either of those categories; but he is most famous for them). You may know him from how his drawings inspired the staircase scene in Labyrinth.

Spoiler: Size

Show

Grey Wolf

[Ionathus]

Elan vs Team Evil
Elan: Hi! I'm Elan!
Redcloak:... And?
Elan: I'm a bard. I can, like, sing and stuff.
Redcloak:...
Elan: And I wondered if... I dunno... You needed something put into a song?
Redcloak: Why would I want a song...
Elan: Maybe a historic epic about goblinoid triumphs, or something.
Redcloak: no, no, I'm not having humans capitalising on our cultural...
Elan: Oh, goblinoid musical cultures? Like Bugbear Throat Singing, or Hobgoblin Battle Hymns?
Redcloak: I... Wait you know about them?
Elan: I don't normally play them, I'm very aware of appropriation. But if you have any Goblin Bards, then I could teach them what I've learnt and restore the cultural heritage that was lost.
Redcloak: I don't get it, what's in it for you?
Elan: Um, I'm a bard? We take lessons in how to be fifth wheels in other people's storylines.

Haley vs Team Evil
Redcloak: Where's my holy symbol?
Xykon: Has anyone seen my shoes?
MitD: Didn't you used to have a belt for that robe?
Xykon: And has anyone seen the idiots umbrella? This scene can only exist in transcript without it!

Dear lord, this is delightful. Thank you for this glimpse into an alternate reality!

[Jason]

There have been people unironically saying that everything Redcloak represents is objectively wrong and therefore he needs to be taken out with extreme (and presumably speciesist) prejudice and I do not like that. And I’m not particularly fond of “maybe the goblins are oppressed but Redcloak still needs to die” either because that much of that still smacks of “Redcloak is a villain and therefore he is wrong and is unforgivable”.

You are exaggerating. There are people on the forum who have said that they find the whole goblin oppression subplot suspicious, but not as far as i can tell because of a personal dislike of Redcloak the character. You have repeated that argument many times but I'm not seeing it. There is also plenty of evidence in the comic that Redcloak's view of goblin oppression and how the gods treat the other races is fundamentally flawed, to say the least.

Redcloak and his obsession with The Plan is the single biggest threat to the continued existence of goblinkind in Stickworld. He is a deplorable racist against anything non-goblin. He willingly condones slavery. To protect his secrets he murdered a co-worker in a truly horrifying fashion while lecturing her about how stupid she was. He stripped Xykon of his remaining humanity and made him an undead abomination in the service of the Plan. He has enslaved and sacrificed innumerable goblin and hobgoblin lives for the Plan. He willingly enslaved his own family and murdered his younger brother for the Plan. He attempted to murder Durkon, while acting as an emissary, for offering him an alternative to The Plan.

The "he had no choice" argument doesn't fly. He has had several clear decision points and has chosen Xylon and The Plan each time.

I wouldn't call him irredeemable but he's pretty close, to the point that it probably wouldn't be dramatically satisfying for him to not die even if he does eventually throw out the Plan and takes action towards redeeming himself.

I like Redcloak. His backstory and his refusal to let go of his obsession are tragic. But he is unquestionably a villain and he therefore deserves a villain's reward.

[mashlagoo1982]

It is incredibly relevant, since how bad the plan is directly reflects the likelihood that it is true.

Its not more likely, though. That's my point.

Team Evil: I've seen better plans in the M. C. Escher Functional Architecture school. This can't be their doing.

I guess we just disagree on this point.

I don't believe Team Evil will suspect MitD when OotS is right there front and center easier to blame.

If RC wasn't so hung up on his distrust and hatred of other races... maybe (I would give it 50/50 odds then if they were to try and place blame).
As it stands, I don't think they will make that leap.