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2020-10-21, 09:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread
(Serious question: have we stopped tagging SoD spoilers?)
I don't think anyone is arguing Redcloak isn't a villain. All the stuff you listed against him? That all still holds true.
But we've had multiple threads debating Goblinoid Oppression push into the dozens of pages before being locked, and I saw a ton of personal dislike for Redcloak motivating those discussions. Of course nobody's gonna outright state "I dislike Redcloak so I want him to be wrong about goblinoids, because then I don't have to reconcile my dislike with how he has a point" because people don't think like that, and it's always more complicated than that, so nobody would ever write that sentence. But several arguments essentially boiled down to how evil and hypocritical Redcloak is, and therefore "he must personally be removed from the story and maybe they can get Jirix to cast the spell to seal the rift? I don't care that he can't cast 9th level spells, the narrative could wait a few years while he levels up. What do you mean, 'that would be a confusing and narratively-jumbled conclusion'?"
EDIT: Agreed, maybe they'd have questioned it if Durkon & Minrah hadn't shown up, but now that Team Evil knows OotS is there, it makes sense for the blame to shift over to them.Last edited by Ionathus; 2020-10-21 at 09:28 AM.
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2020-10-21, 09:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
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2020-10-21, 09:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-10-21, 10:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread
The threads keep get locked because people seem to have trouble separating their feelings about real world racism from the fictional goblin suppression subplot and things keep getting too heated. Personally I think there are perfectly valid reasons to be skeptical of Redcloak's views on the subject.
It's also entirely possible to like Redcloak and still believe he is an evil hypocrite.
Yeah, the people who think Jirix should take over don't have a leg to stand on, but I don't think that means they hate Redcloak. More that they understand that Redcloak is a serious obstacle to the goblins improving their lives and hasn't shown any signs that his attitude will change anytime soon.Last edited by Jason; 2020-10-21 at 10:05 AM.
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2020-10-21, 10:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread
Because he a) isn't the only one in TE that has been painting things and b) paint is easy to obtain. If TE assumes this whole scenario is an attempt to weaken them by leading them into a non-explored cave before they were ready and after forcing them to expend resources attacking the CODzillas (as Xykon already is predisposed to think, given his strangely cautious approach to the fight), then the logical suspects is not MitD but the CODzillas.
GWLast edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2020-10-21 at 10:07 AM.
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Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est
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2020-10-21, 10:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-10-21, 10:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread
I should point out that I'm not saying that I thin they will have a confrontation with the MitD over this just yet. But I do think that they will figure its more him and less the Order (at the very least, Redcloak will, since there's no tactically logical way I can think of for the Order to do it and then immediately give up the game for zero benefit, and Reddie is a very tactical thinker). I think it will heighten distrust that will have payoff later.
Last edited by Peelee; 2020-10-21 at 10:09 AM.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
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2020-10-21, 10:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread
Well, there are indeed some people who read the comic through their real-life political lens.
I remember notably the threads about Sidgi's potential regeneration being quite heated, for this reason notably.
The more recent threads in the 5E forum about Tasha's new racial rules got quite heated too, for the same reason.Que tous les anciens dieux et les nouveaux protègent la France.
Resistance Data in MM, Volo's, MToF. -- -- Petrocorus's 3.5 Paladin Builds List. -- -- French vs. EnglishOriginally Posted by King Louis XIII in The Musketeers
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2020-10-21, 10:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread
Well didn’t Rich specifically state that the goblinoid subplot was about real-life racism? Also maybe there was more than one thread but wasn’t it closed off partly because we got off-topic and wandered into sensitive stuff?
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
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2020-10-21, 10:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread
If I were Team Evil, I would just assume that the Order has been secretly misleading us with the paint while they wait to gather their strength. MitD already planted the idea that this team is capable of splitting their forces so I'd figure the paint was just a delay until everyone arrived.
Maybe some members only arrived today, and they didn't feel comfortable revealing themselves until the team was 100% ready for a possible fight?
It's not an incredibly plausible plan, but were I in their shoes I'd default to that assumption rather than believe the MitD has had a Heel-Face turn.Last edited by Ionathus; 2020-10-21 at 10:23 AM. Reason: used "at full strength" at the end of, like, literally every sentence
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2020-10-21, 10:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread
That’s true. If I were Xykon, I’d immediately suspect Oona or one of the other bugbears was painting doors.
And if I were a bugbear, I’d be painting doors too, just to get the lich to give up and leave my village as soon as possible.
But I don’t think it would occur to me that OotS was painting doors. I’m probably not smart enough to be a comic book villain :-(
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2020-10-21, 10:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread
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2020-10-21, 10:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread
Even though that is traditionally true in D&D going back to the beginning, Rich has made it very clear and very explicit that in His Campaign (OoTS), based on his version of D&D (baseline being 3.x where goblins are "usually" something on an alignment chart per the monster manual description) that isn't how it works.
He chooses to take a much broader approach to how intelligent races make moral decisions.
Likewise with the black dragon case.
He's the DM.
@Jason: nice post (the long one)
Treating Redcloak's PoV as Word of God/Word of Giant seems to be a common error.
To quote both Roy and V during different parts of the end of books 4 & 5 "We really don't know what's going on" and to quote Belkar from book 5 (as they look into the rift and see a world with water on it
"Someone's been yanking everyone's chain."
That someone is Rich.
And book 6 revealed some of what is going on. Book 7 will, I suspect, reveal a great deal more.
By the way, if you haven't played the RPG Great Ork Gods, I'll recommend it.
The Premise: all of the PCs are orks/orcs. The gods hate them.
It predates OoTS (wait, no, it came out around that time); it predates SoD.Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2020-10-21 at 10:54 AM.
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
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Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
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2020-10-21, 10:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread
Yep.
As you note, the MitD claimed that the Order is the B-team. And acted suspiciously immediately after, which was noticed by both Reddie and Big X. "Gathering their strength" in the form of two Clerics who are doing little other than running away, and making TE go into a dungeon (which TE has been able to tackle easily dozens of times by this point) basically means that their strength is nil.
They also wouldn't have to think MitD is done a complete Heel-Face turn. They would just need to suspect that he is hampering their efforts, which they already might suspect from his cheering in the desert and certainly adds more credence to that.Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
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2020-10-21, 10:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread
Depends on the spellcaster. (And, in practice, on how often you use this technique. The DM will probably let it work well once or twice before putting up countermeasures—a screen of melee mooks to protect the caster, silent spells/items, spellcasting monsters that are also scary in melee, etc.)
They're called "people". There is no such thing as an objective reader.
Some people are absolutely more conscious about it than others, and/or more blunt about applying said lens to their discussion of the comic.
I haven't seen anyone do that. Maybe it happens, but I've heard too many nuanced arguments misrepresented as "SJW says we're bigots because we disagree with her" to just accept that claim on faith. Nothing personal.
In fairness, Xykon will probably try to add murder to the situation once he figures out something's up.
Normally, we at least get to the start of the plan before going off the rails.
Redcloak (charading): attempts to mime "climbing"
Oona (guessing): attempts to mime "dancing"
Xykon (cheating): attempts to copy Redcloak's movements
Greyview (chuckling): attempts to restrain amusement
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2020-10-21, 11:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread
Red Cloak is fascinating. Morally indefensible at this point. Yeah.
As it stands, my (very subjective) perceived guesses/interpretations as to whether...
- They blame the extra painted doors on the Order, however temporarily: Sure but then they could get into an argument about all the other possibilities and X will get bored (again) and forget about it since there are squishy ppl to kill and that's more fun and his phylactery is safe so what are they gonna do anyway. Even if the world explodes he's safe, right? right?
- The MitD gets in any actual trouble for painting extra doors: 50/50 I mean I can see it coming to the good guys' side at some point I guess. It could be because of this, maybe some other thing, or a combination of things. Hopefully it will be awesome. Maybe a splash page. 👌
- Goblinoid inherent disadvantages are a thing in stickworld: SoD makes that pretty clear but the info Team Evil has could be biased I guess. For the sake of tasty tasty nuance I would prefer it to be true, anyway.
- Red Cloak has a bad case of escalation of commitment bias: Oh, definitely. SoD and what Minrah said to him recently make that 99% unequivocal within the framing of the story anyway.
- Red Cloak is evil: Definitely, for sure. But so fascinatingly so.
- Red Cloak is a speciesist(sp?): Admittedly. At least he stoped being a racist to hobgoblins?
- Red Cloak will eventually cooperate with the Order: Ooph, this is probably the toughest one; the fact that I can't tell which way this is gonna go in the endgame is what makes waiting for the next comic worthwhile. I'd say no as it stands right now? But this book is just beginning, and things are probably gonna get messier and messier, and alignments lines/allegiances are going to get blurrier and blurrier as it goes along (or maybe that's just my wishful thinking). It would also be hilarious if he got redemption when Miko didn't (he changed his mind about hobgoblins so... he cleared that hurdle once, It could happen?).
- Jirix inherits the mantle: I can see it happening at some point, but not right now at the battle for Kraagor's gate. I think we'll see all of Red Cloak's character arc play out much like Durkon's before that happens(iff it happens), at any rate.
- Elan will be named ambassador to Gobbotopia for his bugbear throat-singing skills, etc. at a later time: yes...
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2020-10-21, 11:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread
(Arguably the three pantheons fulfill that role.)
He is a deplorable racist against anything non-goblin.
He willingly condones slavery.
To protect his secrets he murdered a co-worker in a truly horrifying fashion while lecturing her about how stupid she was.
Spoiler: SoDHe stripped Xykon of his remaining humanity and made him an undead abomination in the service of the Plan.straight into the great fire below.Spoiler: SoDrotting away in an air-tight hole,
He has enslaved
and sacrificed innumerable goblin and hobgoblin lives for the Plan.
He willingly enslaved his own family
Spoiler: SoDand murdered his younger brother for the Plan.
He attempted to murder Durkon, while acting as an emissary, for offering him an alternative to The Plan.
The "he had no choice" argument doesn't fly. He has had several clear decision points and has chosen Xykon and The Plan each time.
I wouldn't call him irredeemable but he's pretty close, to the point that it probably wouldn't be dramatically satisfying for him to not die even if he does eventually throw out the Plan and takes action towards redeeming himself.
I like Redcloak. His backstory and his refusal to let go of his obsession are tragic. But he is unquestionably a villain and he therefore deserves a villain's reward.
Never been to a thread that got locked up for that.
and things keep getting too heated.
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2020-10-21, 12:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread
OK
I admit there's no such thing as an objective reader.
But indeed some people are really blunt and ultra-assertive about their lens.
And when it comes to "nuanced" arguments, i have been (with others) basically called a rape apologist (in slightly less obvious terms) for saying that Sidgi's reasons were emotional, and not rational.Que tous les anciens dieux et les nouveaux protègent la France.
Resistance Data in MM, Volo's, MToF. -- -- Petrocorus's 3.5 Paladin Builds List. -- -- French vs. EnglishOriginally Posted by King Louis XIII in The Musketeers
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2020-10-21, 12:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread
I would say Redcloak’s sins outweigh his points, which does not mean ignore them.
Also I have only seen exactly one instance of the actual “goblins are evil so Redcloak is wrong” stance on the forum in the current day; I imagine most people really don’t think that.Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
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2020-10-21, 12:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread
I had a thought that is probably not original, and maybe this has been discussed before, but I wonder if Rich is doing something similar with Redcloak that was done with the British colonel in Bridge on the River Kwai (movie). That character gets this idea in his head and with laser like focus pursues and end ... and then in the end, he has this "aha" moment and says
and we'll see this play out in its fullest full tragic sense much later in this book.Spoiler: BotRK spoiler"What have I done?"
Granted, one could argue that this moment has already happened for Redcloak in SoD, and his answer to himself was "Well fork it, I'll press on since I'm still alive ..."Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
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2020-10-21, 12:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread
I would say there is no cosmic scale that makes comparing a person’s sins against his points meaningful.
My no -objective viewpoint is that goblin oppression is separate thing from Redcloak’s moral failings. I literally can not understand the point of posts that try to weight one against the other.
Those posts that discuss redcloaks moral failings and goblin oppression as if they were related always seem to me like someone trying to decide if a red car or a yellow car is faster.Last edited by Dion; 2020-10-21 at 12:34 PM.
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2020-10-21, 12:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread
You could argue that either way. The three pantheons wouldn't be ready to destroy the world if Redcloak weren't trying to threaten them.
Come again?
Then Redcloak enslaved the hobgoblins by killing their supreme leader and assuming his role. Again, did the hobgoblins really have a choice?
Never happened.SpoilerDuring Start of Darkness Xykon shows up at Right-eye's village and enslaves all the goblins present. Redcloak lets it happen and never tried to free any of his family afterwards. Right-eye later calls him out on this.
I can only think of one (after Xykon's body got destroyed) and there are psychologically plausible explanations for why he chose as he did.Last edited by Jason; 2020-10-21 at 12:43 PM.
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2020-10-21, 12:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-10-21, 12:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread
Okay, that was comedy gold. Thank you for that.
Personally I take the stance that I have no reason to believe that the oppression of goblinoids/monster races is false (people have brought convincing arguments that we don't have all the details but that's about as far as that gets) and that solving that takes precedence over holding Redcloak to account for all his wrongdoings.
If Rich brings forth an alternative solution to the problem then fine, but as it stands there's no real indication of there being an alternative other than the perspective that narratively speaking Redcloak shouldn't be allowed to be part of the solution, which to me is just backwards priorities.Last edited by Worldsong; 2020-10-21 at 12:46 PM.
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2020-10-21, 12:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread
Yeah, that "what is wrong with me" panel in #451 is one I refer to frequently but that doesn't strike me as the BotRK moment in terms of its finality. That strikes me as a case of character growth: he finally saw his hobgolins allies as his people, not "others" ... or so I read it.
Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2020-10-21 at 12:41 PM.
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
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2020-10-21, 12:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread
Alec Guinness's character in BotRK is awesome by his complexity. One could probably make an analysis of this character longer than the movie itself.
Spoiler: BotRKHow easy it is to all the wrong things for all the good reasons? Was it really the wrong things? Were his reasons good? What would we do in his stead? What side was he actually on in the end?
This is one of the thing that i like with RC, and i think why we can like it as a character. We can understand where he's coming from and how he got there. We can see how and why he made some of his worst choices, how they made (some) sense at the points where he made them and how they can push him into the sunken cost fallacy.
Having to deal with Xykon on a daily basis while needing him and feeling responsible for this, plus the big SoD thing, is certainly a situation that can do a number on someone's psychology.Last edited by Petrocorus; 2020-10-21 at 12:45 PM.
Que tous les anciens dieux et les nouveaux protègent la France.
Resistance Data in MM, Volo's, MToF. -- -- Petrocorus's 3.5 Paladin Builds List. -- -- French vs. EnglishOriginally Posted by King Louis XIII in The Musketeers
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Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread
The gods are a bunch of jerks either way, though.
Start of Darkness shows us Xykon's typical recruiting methods. All of the goblin minions killed during Dungeon Crawling Fools were effectively conscripts. They didn't really have the option of not working for Xykon. Slaves, in other words.
Then Redcloak enslaved the hobgoblins by killing their supreme leader and assuming his role. Again, did the hobgoblins really have a choice?
SpoilerDuring Start of Darkness Xykon shows up at Right-eye's village and enslaves all the goblins present. Redcloak lets it happen and never tried to free any of his family afterwards. Right-eye later calls him out on this.Spoiler: SoDXykon shows up at the village (which is something Redcloak did not expect or plan for), and then orders the two to round up the village and burn the huts. Redcloak and Right-Eye both do as told, because they both know that saying no means that everyone dies. The two brothers, all in all, make the same choice, and neither of them is all too enthusiastic about it.
There are others before that point. Of course he had plausible reasons for choosing as he did. They were still choices, however.But that's all.Spoiler: SoDwhere he could have killed himself participating in Right-Eye's effort to kill X., mostly because he was not certain that it will fail.
Also, when one's spirit is as broken as Redcloak's got after we-know-what, not realizing he had a shot at Dorukan's is not something I'd blame one for.
Edit:
Fair enough. But still: it shows that he is capable of growth despite his obsessive tendencies.Last edited by Metastachydium; 2020-10-21 at 12:48 PM.
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Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread
Que tous les anciens dieux et les nouveaux protègent la France.
Resistance Data in MM, Volo's, MToF. -- -- Petrocorus's 3.5 Paladin Builds List. -- -- French vs. EnglishOriginally Posted by King Louis XIII in The Musketeers
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Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread
As has been pointed out, collectively there are more not-good gods than good-aligned gods in Stickworld's pantheons.
Redcloak did not have much of a choice in that meatter, either.
SpoilerPlus he made Xykon a lich in the first place. After he already knew that more goblin deaths would be the likely result.
The hobgoblins of Hobgoblin City have this weird, toxicly Lawful, kraterocratic thing running. For them, becoming the Supreme Leader via killing the current Supreme Leader is a legitimate way of acquiring power. They appear to submit themselves willingly to the Supreme Leader (think of the unsettling glee with which they accept orders to basically kill themselves in gruesome ways).
No.Spoiler: SoDXykon shows up at the village (which is something Redcloak did not expect or plan for), and then orders the two to round up the village and burn the huts. Redcloak and Right-Eye both do as told, because they both know that saying no means that everyone dies. The two brothers, all in all, make the same choice, and neither of them is all too enthusiastic about it.SpoilerYeah, I read the book. Once the immediate threat to his family was past Redcloak took no action to try to free any of them, and they were all killed off by adventurers over the next few years. Right-eye at least managed to save his daughter. Redcloak didn't even think of trying, and was surprised when Right-eye blamed Xykon for their deaths.
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Re: OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread
Yup.
He had more options than the other goblins.
SpoilerPlus he made Xykon a lich in the first place. After he already knew that more goblin deaths would be the likely result.Spoiler: SoD, p. 62Redcloak: „Look, brother, if I really thought he was a danger to our people, I'd be the first to destroy him, but I don't think he is.”
Willing slavery is still slavery.
SpoilerYeah, I read the book. Once the immediate threat to his family was past Redcloak took no action to try to free any of them, and they were all killed off by adventurers over the next few years. Right-eye at least managed to save his daughter. Redcloak didn't even think of trying, and was surprised when Right-eye blamed Xykon for their deaths.
Spoiler: SoD, pp. 100–101Right-Eye blames Xykon rather than Redcloak for his family's conscription and death. Redcloak helped him defeat the adventurers and Right-Eye remembers that, after all. True enough, he did not help them escape, but Right-Eye does not seem to have worked hard on that one, either, although he believed that Xykon does not keep count of them and would not notice their absence.
Also, on p. 101 Redcloak criticizes Right-Eye's plan of having his eye regenerated were his assassination attempt to fail so that he can blend into the crowd as thoroughly stupid, arguing that if Right-Eye knew Xykon, he would also know that if he cannot find the culprit he'd just kill all goblins and be done with that. from that perspective, it is easily understood why Redcloak wanted to avoid conflict with the Bony Bastard.
All in all, stating that he willingly helped X. enslave his family is just unfair.Last edited by Metastachydium; 2020-10-21 at 01:31 PM. Reason: Â.