OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

[Ionathus]

You are exaggerating. There are people on the forum who have said that they find the whole goblin oppression subplot suspicious, but not as far as i can tell because of a personal dislike of Redcloak the character. You have repeated that argument many times but I'm not seeing it. There is also plenty of evidence in the comic that Redcloak's view of goblin oppression and how the gods treat the other races is fundamentally flawed, to say the least.

Redcloak and his obsession with The Plan is the single biggest threat to the continued existence of goblinkind in Stickworld. He is a deplorable racist against anything non-goblin. He willingly condones slavery. To protect his secrets he murdered a co-worker in a truly horrifying fashion while lecturing her about how stupid she was. He stripped Xykon of his remaining humanity and made him an undead abomination in the service of the Plan. He has enslaved and sacrificed innumerable goblin and hobgoblin lives for the Plan. He willingly enslaved his own family and murdered his younger brother for the Plan. He attempted to murder Durkon, while acting as an emissary, for offering him an alternative to The Plan.

The "he had no choice" argument doesn't fly. He has had several clear decision points and has chosen Xylon and The Plan each time.

I wouldn't call him irredeemable but he's pretty close, to the point that it probably wouldn't be dramatically satisfying for him to not die even if he does eventually throw out the Plan and takes action towards redeeming himself.

I like Redcloak. His backstory and his refusal to let go of his obsession are tragic. But he is unquestionably a villain and he therefore deserves a villain's reward.

(Serious question: have we stopped tagging SoD spoilers?)

I don't think anyone is arguing Redcloak isn't a villain. All the stuff you listed against him? That all still holds true.

But we've had multiple threads debating Goblinoid Oppression push into the dozens of pages before being locked, and I saw a ton of personal dislike for Redcloak motivating those discussions. Of course nobody's gonna outright state "I dislike Redcloak so I want him to be wrong about goblinoids, because then I don't have to reconcile my dislike with how he has a point" because people don't think like that, and it's always more complicated than that, so nobody would ever write that sentence. But several arguments essentially boiled down to how evil and hypocritical Redcloak is, and therefore "he must personally be removed from the story and maybe they can get Jirix to cast the spell to seal the rift? I don't care that he can't cast 9th level spells, the narrative could wait a few years while he levels up. What do you mean, 'that would be a confusing and narratively-jumbled conclusion'?"

EDIT:

I don't believe Team Evil will suspect MitD when OotS is right there front and center easier to blame.

Agreed, maybe they'd have questioned it if Durkon & Minrah hadn't shown up, but now that Team Evil knows OotS is there, it makes sense for the blame to shift over to them.

[danielxcutter]

(Serious question: have we stopped tagging SoD spoilers?)

I don't think anyone is arguing Redcloak isn't a villain. All the stuff you listed against him? That all still holds true.

But we've had multiple threads debating Goblinoid Oppression push into the dozens of pages before being locked, and I saw a ton of personal dislike for Redcloak motivating those discussions. Of course nobody's gonna outright state "I dislike Redcloak so I want him to be wrong about goblinoids, because then I don't have to reconcile my dislike with how he has a point" because people don't think like that, and it's always more complicated than that, so nobody would ever write that sentence. But several arguments essentially boiled down to how evil and hypocritical Redcloak is, and therefore "he must personally be removed from the story and maybe they can get Jirix to cast the spell to seal the rift? I don't care that he can't cast 9th level spells, the narrative could wait a few years while he levels up. What do you mean, 'that would be a confusing and narratively-jumbled conclusion'?"

Oh, and I’ve seen at least one actual argument that “goblins are supposed to be Always Evil because that’s how D&D works”. I imagine that is an minority even among the “throw Redcloak under the bus” party, though.

[Dion]

Agreed, maybe they'd have questioned it if Durkon & Minrah hadn't shown up, but now that Team Evil knows OotS is there, it makes sense for the blame to shift over to them.

Yeah, why blame the paint on the useless dope with the paint who’s been painting things?

[Jason]

But we've had multiple threads debating Goblinoid Oppression push into the dozens of pages before being locked, and I saw a ton of personal dislike for Redcloak motivating those discussions. Of course nobody's gonna outright state "I dislike Redcloak so I want him to be wrong about goblinoids, because then I don't have to reconcile my dislike with how he has a point" because people don't think like that, and it's always more complicated than that, so nobody would ever write that sentence. But several arguments essentially boiled down to how evil and hypocritical Redcloak is, and therefore "he must personally be removed from the story and maybe they can get Jirix to cast the spell to seal the rift? I don't care that he can't cast 9th level spells, the narrative could wait a few years while he levels up. What do you mean, 'that would be a confusing and narratively-jumbled conclusion'?"

The threads keep get locked because people seem to have trouble separating their feelings about real world racism from the fictional goblin suppression subplot and things keep getting too heated. Personally I think there are perfectly valid reasons to be skeptical of Redcloak's views on the subject.

It's also entirely possible to like Redcloak and still believe he is an evil hypocrite.

Yeah, the people who think Jirix should take over don't have a leg to stand on, but I don't think that means they hate Redcloak. More that they understand that Redcloak is a serious obstacle to the goblins improving their lives and hasn't shown any signs that his attitude will change anytime soon.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Yeah, why blame the paint on the useless dope with the paint who’s been painting things?

Because he a) isn't the only one in TE that has been painting things and b) paint is easy to obtain. If TE assumes this whole scenario is an attempt to weaken them by leading them into a non-explored cave before they were ready and after forcing them to expend resources attacking the CODzillas (as Xykon already is predisposed to think, given his strangely cautious approach to the fight), then the logical suspects is not MitD but the CODzillas.

GW

[Jason]

Oh, and I’ve seen at least one actual argument that “goblins are supposed to be Always Evil because that’s how D&D works”. I imagine that is an minority even among the “throw Redcloak under the bus” party, though.

Well, it is how D&D works that goblins are in the game primarily to be low-level opponents, and they are therefore usually evil. That doesn't mean players are justified in cruelly slaughtering non-combatant goblins, though.

[Peelee]

I guess we just disagree on this point.

I don't believe Team Evil will suspect MitD when OotS is right there front and center easier to blame.

If RC wasn't so hung up on his distrust and hatred of other races... maybe (I would give it 50/50 odds then if they were to try and place blame).
As it stands, I don't think they will make that leap.

I should point out that I'm not saying that I thin they will have a confrontation with the MitD over this just yet. But I do think that they will figure its more him and less the Order (at the very least, Redcloak will, since there's no tactically logical way I can think of for the Order to do it and then immediately give up the game for zero benefit, and Reddie is a very tactical thinker). I think it will heighten distrust that will have payoff later.

[Petrocorus]

The threads keep get locked because people seem to have trouble separating their feelings about real world racism from the fictional goblin suppression subplot and things keep getting too heated.

Well, there are indeed some people who read the comic through their real-life political lens.
I remember notably the threads about Sidgi's potential regeneration being quite heated, for this reason notably.

The more recent threads in the 5E forum about Tasha's new racial rules got quite heated too, for the same reason.

[danielxcutter]

Well didn’t Rich specifically state that the goblinoid subplot was about real-life racism? Also maybe there was more than one thread but wasn’t it closed off partly because we got off-topic and wandered into sensitive stuff?

[Ionathus]

I should point out that I'm not saying that I thin they will have a confrontation with the MitD over this just yet. But I do think that they will figure its more him and less the Order (at the very least, Redcloak will, since there's no tactically logical way I can think of for the Order to do it and then immediately give up the game for zero benefit, and Reddie is a very tactical thinker). I think it will heighten distrust that will have payoff later.

If I were Team Evil, I would just assume that the Order has been secretly misleading us with the paint while they wait to gather their strength. MitD already planted the idea that this team is capable of splitting their forces so I'd figure the paint was just a delay until everyone arrived.

Maybe some members only arrived today, and they didn't feel comfortable revealing themselves until the team was 100% ready for a possible fight?

It's not an incredibly plausible plan, but were I in their shoes I'd default to that assumption rather than believe the MitD has had a Heel-Face turn.

[Dion]

Because he a) isn't the only one in TE that has been painting things and b) paint is easy to obtain

That’s true. If I were Xykon, I’d immediately suspect Oona or one of the other bugbears was painting doors.

And if I were a bugbear, I’d be painting doors too, just to get the lich to give up and leave my village as soon as possible.

But I don’t think it would occur to me that OotS was painting doors. I’m probably not smart enough to be a comic book villain :-(

[Jason]

Well didn’t Rich specifically state that the goblinoid subplot was about real-life racism? Also maybe there was more than one thread but wasn’t it closed off partly because we got off-topic and wandered into sensitive stuff?

Probably he did say that at some time. That shouldn't make the subplot and how it has been presented in the comic immune to skepticism or criticism, or serve as justification to call someone with a skeptic's view of the subplot a real-life racist.

[KorvinStarmast]

Oh, and I’ve seen at least one actual argument that “goblins are supposed to be Always Evil because that’s how D&D works”. I imagine that is an minority even among the “throw Redcloak under the bus” party, though.

Even though that is traditionally true in D&D going back to the beginning, Rich has made it very clear and very explicit that in His Campaign (OoTS), based on his version of D&D (baseline being 3.x where goblins are "usually" something on an alignment chart per the monster manual description) that isn't how it works.
He chooses to take a much broader approach to how intelligent races make moral decisions.
Likewise with the black dragon case.
He's the DM.

@Jason: nice post (the long one)

Treating Redcloak's PoV as Word of God/Word of Giant seems to be a common error.
To quote both Roy and V during different parts of the end of books 4 & 5 "We really don't know what's going on" and to quote Belkar from book 5 (as they look into the rift and see a world with water on it
"Someone's been yanking everyone's chain."

That someone is Rich.
And book 6 revealed some of what is going on. Book 7 will, I suspect, reveal a great deal more.

By the way, if you haven't played the RPG Great Ork Gods, I'll recommend it.
The Premise: all of the PCs are orks/orcs. The gods hate them.
It predates OoTS (wait, no, it came out around that time); it predates SoD.

[Peelee]

Well didn’t Rich specifically state that the goblinoid subplot was about real-life racism?

Yep.

If I were Team Evil, I would just assume that the Order has been secretly misleading us with the paint while they wait to gather their strength. MitD already planted the idea that this team is capable of splitting their forces so I'd figure the paint was just a delay until everyone arrived.

Maybe some members only arrived today, and they didn't feel comfortable revealing themselves until the team was 100% ready for a possible fight?

It's not an incredibly plausible plan, but were I in their shoes I'd default to that assumption rather than believe the MitD has had a Heel-Face turn.

As you note, the MitD claimed that the Order is the B-team. And acted suspiciously immediately after, which was noticed by both Reddie and Big X. "Gathering their strength" in the form of two Clerics who are doing little other than running away, and making TE go into a dungeon (which TE has been able to tackle easily dozens of times by this point) basically means that their strength is nil.

They also wouldn't have to think MitD is done a complete Heel-Face turn. They would just need to suspect that he is hampering their efforts, which they already might suspect from his cheering in the desert and certainly adds more credence to that.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Yeah. Silent Spell is a feat designed pretty much to shut this tactic down. Similar with Still Spell. Or you just put a spell in a spell completion item that doesn't need a command word (Ring of Spell Storing, for example).

It's very hard to inconvenience spellcasters for more than a round or two.

Depends on the spellcaster. (And, in practice, on how often you use this technique. The DM will probably let it work well once or twice before putting up countermeasures—a screen of melee mooks to protect the caster, silent spells/items, spellcasting monsters that are also scary in melee, etc.)

Well, there are indeed some people who read the comic through their real-life political lens.

They're called "people". There is no such thing as an objective reader.

Some people are absolutely more conscious about it than others, and/or more blunt about applying said lens to their discussion of the comic.

Probably he did say that at some time. That shouldn't make the subplot and how it has been presented in the comic immune to skepticism or criticism, or serve as justification to call someone with a skeptic's view of the subplot a real-life racist.

I haven't seen anyone do that. Maybe it happens, but I've heard too many nuanced arguments misrepresented as "SJW says we're bigots because we disagree with her" to just accept that claim on faith. Nothing personal.

---

This the point where an analogy is pointless because this is just the situation (ignoring of course any other suspects some but not all people believe are valid) but with murder.

In fairness, Xykon will probably try to add murder to the situation once he figures out something's up.

Roy, you of all people should know better than to rely on ANY of the Order, including you, to be capable of making plan A work from start to finish without shenanigans, unexpected turns of fate, or at least one (eu)catastrophe.

Normally, we at least get to the start of the plan before going off the rails.

(How would you play charades when no one can speak, anyway?)

Redcloak (charading): attempts to mime "climbing"
Oona (guessing): attempts to mime "dancing"
Xykon (cheating): attempts to copy Redcloak's movements
Greyview (chuckling): attempts to restrain amusement

[Shirow]

The threads keep get locked because people seem to have trouble separating their feelings about real world racism from the fictional goblin suppression subplot and things keep getting too heated. Personally I think there are perfectly valid reasons to be skeptical of Redcloak's views on the subject.

It's also entirely possible to like Redcloak and still believe he is an evil hypocrite.

Yeah, the people who think Jirix should take over don't have a leg to stand on, but I don't think that means they hate Redcloak. More that they understand that Redcloak is a serious obstacle to the goblins improving their lives and hasn't shown any signs that his attitude will change anytime soon.

Red Cloak is fascinating. Morally indefensible at this point. Yeah.
As it stands, my (very subjective) perceived guesses/interpretations as to whether...

• They blame the extra painted doors on the Order, however temporarily: Sure but then they could get into an argument about all the other possibilities and X will get bored (again) and forget about it since there are squishy ppl to kill and that's more fun and his phylactery is safe so what are they gonna do anyway. Even if the world explodes he's safe, right? right?
• The MitD gets in any actual trouble for painting extra doors: 50/50 I mean I can see it coming to the good guys' side at some point I guess. It could be because of this, maybe some other thing, or a combination of things. Hopefully it will be awesome. Maybe a splash page. 👌
• Goblinoid inherent disadvantages are a thing in stickworld: SoD makes that pretty clear but the info Team Evil has could be biased I guess. For the sake of tasty tasty nuance I would prefer it to be true, anyway.
• Red Cloak has a bad case of escalation of commitment bias: Oh, definitely. SoD and what Minrah said to him recently make that 99% unequivocal within the framing of the story anyway.
• Red Cloak is evil: Definitely, for sure. But so fascinatingly so.
• Red Cloak is a speciesist(sp?): Admittedly. At least he stoped being a racist to hobgoblins?
• Red Cloak will eventually cooperate with the Order: Ooph, this is probably the toughest one; the fact that I can't tell which way this is gonna go in the endgame is what makes waiting for the next comic worthwhile. I'd say no as it stands right now? But this book is just beginning, and things are probably gonna get messier and messier, and alignments lines/allegiances are going to get blurrier and blurrier as it goes along (or maybe that's just my wishful thinking). It would also be hilarious if he got redemption when Miko didn't (he changed his mind about hobgoblins so... he cleared that hurdle once, It could happen?).
• Jirix inherits the mantle: I can see it happening at some point, but not right now at the battle for Kraagor's gate. I think we'll see all of Red Cloak's character arc play out much like Durkon's before that happens(iff it happens), at any rate.
• Elan will be named ambassador to Gobbotopia for his bugbear throat-singing skills, etc. at a later time: yes...

[Metastachydium]

Redcloak and his obsession with The Plan is the single biggest threat to the continued existence of goblinkind in Stickworld.

(Arguably the three pantheons fulfill that role.)

He is a deplorable racist against anything non-goblin.

He is a deplorable speciesist against PC races in general and humans in particular. He has no grudge against the rest, and made a point of opening the gates of Gobbotopia for much everyone else.

He willingly condones slavery.

Hard to argue.

To protect his secrets he murdered a co-worker in a truly horrifying fashion while lecturing her about how stupid she was.

In self-defense (she intended to get Redcloak and quite a number of goblinoids killed through exposing Redcloak's deception), after a year of constant humiliation and abuse. Poor Tsukiko!

Spoiler: SoD

Show

He stripped Xykon of his remaining humanity and made him an undead abomination in the service of the Plan.

Xykon loved the idea at first, though, and still seems to prefer it to

Spoiler: SoD

Show

rotting away in an air-tight hole,

straight into the great fire below.

He has enslaved

Come again?

and sacrificed innumerable goblin and hobgoblin lives for the Plan.

He's trying to grow out of that one (Plan B notwithstanding).

He willingly enslaved his own family

Never happened.

Spoiler: SoD

Show

and murdered his younger brother for the Plan.

Now, that was an ugly one indeed.

He attempted to murder Durkon, while acting as an emissary, for offering him an alternative to The Plan.

Durkon did not do much to convince him that he was actually speaking on behalf of the gods, and his alternative to the Plan was a hilariously bad one. Trying to kill him was indeed, khm, an overreaction of sorts.

The "he had no choice" argument doesn't fly. He has had several clear decision points and has chosen Xykon and The Plan each time.

I can only think of one (after Xykon's body got destroyed) and there are psychologically plausible explanations for why he chose as he did.

I wouldn't call him irredeemable but he's pretty close, to the point that it probably wouldn't be dramatically satisfying for him to not die even if he does eventually throw out the Plan and takes action towards redeeming himself.

I like Redcloak. His backstory and his refusal to let go of his obsession are tragic. But he is unquestionably a villain and he therefore deserves a villain's reward.

He is a villain, and a nasty one at that. He does have quite a few things to pay for. Still, „he was wrong, all along, let 'im die” is not an ending or a „reward” for him that i'd find satisfying.

The threads keep get locked because people seem to have trouble separating their feelings about real world racism from the fictional goblin suppression subplot

Never been to a thread that got locked up for that.

and things keep getting too heated.

Yeah, that one happens a lot. Speaking of which: let's make sure we don't kill the main discussion thread this time, shall we?

[Petrocorus]

They're called "people". There is no such thing as an objective reader.

Some people are absolutely more conscious about it than others, and/or more blunt about applying said lens to their discussion of the comic.

I haven't seen anyone do that. Maybe it happens, but I've heard too many nuanced arguments misrepresented as "SJW says we're bigots because we disagree with her" to just accept that claim on faith. Nothing personal.

OK
I admit there's no such thing as an objective reader.
But indeed some people are really blunt and ultra-assertive about their lens.
And when it comes to "nuanced" arguments, i have been (with others) basically called a rape apologist (in slightly less obvious terms) for saying that Sidgi's reasons were emotional, and not rational.

[danielxcutter]

I would say Redcloak’s sins outweigh his points, which does not mean ignore them.

Also I have only seen exactly one instance of the actual “goblins are evil so Redcloak is wrong” stance on the forum in the current day; I imagine most people really don’t think that.

[KorvinStarmast]

Also I have only seen exactly one instance of the actual “goblins are evil so Redcloak is wrong” stance on the forum in the current day; I imagine most people really don’t think that.

I had a thought that is probably not original, and maybe this has been discussed before, but I wonder if Rich is doing something similar with Redcloak that was done with the British colonel in Bridge on the River Kwai (movie). That character gets this idea in his head and with laser like focus pursues and end ... and then in the end, he has this "aha" moment and says

Spoiler: BotRK spoiler

Show

"What have I done?"

and we'll see this play out in its fullest full tragic sense much later in this book.

Granted, one could argue that this moment has already happened for Redcloak in SoD, and his answer to himself was "Well fork it, I'll press on since I'm still alive ..."

[Dion]

I would say Redcloak’s sins outweigh his points, which does not mean ignore them.

I would say there is no cosmic scale that makes comparing a person’s sins against his points meaningful.

My no -objective viewpoint is that goblin oppression is separate thing from Redcloak’s moral failings. I literally can not understand the point of posts that try to weight one against the other.

Those posts that discuss redcloaks moral failings and goblin oppression as if they were related always seem to me like someone trying to decide if a red car or a yellow car is faster.

[Jason]

(Arguably the three pantheons fulfill that role.)

You could argue that either way. The three pantheons wouldn't be ready to destroy the world if Redcloak weren't trying to threaten them.

Come again?

Start of Darkness shows us Xykon's typical recruiting methods. All of the goblin minions killed during Dungeon Crawling Fools were effectively conscripts. They didn't really have the option of not working for Xykon. Slaves, in other words.

Then Redcloak enslaved the hobgoblins by killing their supreme leader and assuming his role. Again, did the hobgoblins really have a choice?

Never happened.

Spoiler

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During Start of Darkness Xykon shows up at Right-eye's village and enslaves all the goblins present. Redcloak lets it happen and never tried to free any of his family afterwards. Right-eye later calls him out on this.

I can only think of one (after Xykon's body got destroyed) and there are psychologically plausible explanations for why he chose as he did.

There are others before that point and after. Of course he had plausible reasons for choosing as he did. They were still choices, however.

[Metastachydium]

I had a thought that is probably not original, and maybe this has been discussed before, but I wonder if Rich is doing something similar with Redcloak that was done with the British colonel in Bridge on the River Kwai (movie). That character gets this idea in his head and with laser like focus pursues and end ... and then in the end, he has this "aha" moment and says

Spoiler: BotRK spoiler

Show

"What have I done?"

Well, he did have a moment like that in War, and he readjusted his focus accordingly. Of course, that one was about realizing the scope of the Plan, but still.

[Worldsong]

Normally, we at least get to the start of the plan before going off the rails.

Okay, that was comedy gold. Thank you for that.

I would say there is no cosmic scale that makes comparing a person’s sins against his points meaningful.

My no -objective viewpoint is that goblin oppression is separate thing from Redcloak’s moral failings. I literally can not understand the point of posts that try to weight one against the other.

Those posts that discuss redcloaks moral failings and goblin oppression as if they were related always seem to me like someone trying to decide if a red car or a yellow car is faster.

Personally I take the stance that I have no reason to believe that the oppression of goblinoids/monster races is false (people have brought convincing arguments that we don't have all the details but that's about as far as that gets) and that solving that takes precedence over holding Redcloak to account for all his wrongdoings.

If Rich brings forth an alternative solution to the problem then fine, but as it stands there's no real indication of there being an alternative other than the perspective that narratively speaking Redcloak shouldn't be allowed to be part of the solution, which to me is just backwards priorities.

[KorvinStarmast]

Well, he did have a moment like that in War, and he readjusted his focus accordingly. Of course, that one was about realizing the scope of the Plan, but still.

Yeah, that "what is wrong with me" panel in #451 is one I refer to frequently but that doesn't strike me as the BotRK moment in terms of its finality. That strikes me as a case of character growth: he finally saw his hobgolins allies as his people, not "others" ... or so I read it.

[Petrocorus]

I had a thought that is probably not original, and maybe this has been discussed before, but I wonder if Rich is doing something similar with Redcloak that was done with the British colonel in Bridge on the River Kwai (movie). That character gets this idea in his head and with laser like focus pursues and end ... and then in the end, he has this "aha" moment and says

Spoiler: BotRK spoiler

Show

"What have I done?"

and we'll see this play out in its fullest full tragic sense much later in this book.

Granted, one could argue that this moment has already happened for Redcloak in SoD, and his answer to himself was "Well fork it, I'll press on since I'm still alive ..."

Alec Guinness's character in BotRK is awesome by his complexity. One could probably make an analysis of this character longer than the movie itself.

Spoiler: BotRK

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How easy it is to all the wrong things for all the good reasons? Was it really the wrong things? Were his reasons good? What would we do in his stead? What side was he actually on in the end?

This is one of the thing that i like with RC, and i think why we can like it as a character. We can understand where he's coming from and how he got there. We can see how and why he made some of his worst choices, how they made (some) sense at the points where he made them and how they can push him into the sunken cost fallacy.
Having to deal with Xykon on a daily basis while needing him and feeling responsible for this, plus the big SoD thing, is certainly a situation that can do a number on someone's psychology.

[Metastachydium]

You could argue that either way. The pantheon wouldn't be ready to destroy the world if Redcloak weren't trying to threaten them.

The gods are a bunch of jerks either way, though.

Start of Darkness shows us Xykon's typical recruiting methods. All of the goblin minions killed during Dungeon Crawling Fools were effectively conscripts. They didn't really have the option of not working for Xykon. Slaves, in other words.

Redcloak did not have much of a choice in that meatter, either.

Then Redcloak enslaved the hobgoblins by killing their supreme leader and assuming his role. Again, did the hobgoblins really have a choice?

The hobgoblins of Hobgoblin City have this weird, toxicly Lawful, kraterocratic thing running. For them, becoming the Supreme Leader via killing the current Supreme Leader is a legitimate way of acquiring power. They appear to submit themselves willingly to the Supreme Leader (think of the unsettling glee with which they accept orders to basically kill themselves in gruesome ways).

Spoiler

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During Start of Darkness Xykon shows up at Right-eye's village and enslaves all the goblins present. Redcloak lets it happen and never tried to free any of his family afterwards. Right-eye later calls him out on this.

No.

Spoiler: SoD

Show

Xykon shows up at the village (which is something Redcloak did not expect or plan for), and then orders the two to round up the village and burn the huts. Redcloak and Right-Eye both do as told, because they both know that saying no means that everyone dies. The two brothers, all in all, make the same choice, and neither of them is all too enthusiastic about it.

There are others before that point. Of course he had plausible reasons for choosing as he did. They were still choices, however.

Maybe we can add the one time

Spoiler: SoD

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where he could have killed himself participating in Right-Eye's effort to kill X., mostly because he was not certain that it will fail.

But that's all.
Also, when one's spirit is as broken as Redcloak's got after we-know-what, not realizing he had a shot at Dorukan's is not something I'd blame one for.

Edit:

Yeah, that "what is wrong with me" panel in #451 is one I refer to frequently but that doesn't strike me as the BotRK moment in terms of its finality. That strikes me as a case of character growth: he finally saw his hobgolins allies as his people, not "others" ... or so I read it.

Fair enough. But still: it shows that he is capable of growth despite his obsessive tendencies.

[Petrocorus]

Spoiler

Show

During Start of Darkness Xykon shows up at Right-eye's village and enslaves all the goblins present. Redcloak lets it happen and never tried to free any of his family afterwards. Right-eye later calls him out on this.

Spoiler: SoD

Show

Honestly, what could he have done at this point. Not complying would have gotten his brother, his family, and many other goblins killed.

[Jason]

The gods are a bunch of jerks either way, though.

As has been pointed out, collectively there are more not-good gods than good-aligned gods in Stickworld's pantheons.

Redcloak did not have much of a choice in that meatter, either.

He had more options than the other goblins.

Spoiler

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Plus he made Xykon a lich in the first place. After he already knew that more goblin deaths would be the likely result.

The hobgoblins of Hobgoblin City have this weird, toxicly Lawful, kraterocratic thing running. For them, becoming the Supreme Leader via killing the current Supreme Leader is a legitimate way of acquiring power. They appear to submit themselves willingly to the Supreme Leader (think of the unsettling glee with which they accept orders to basically kill themselves in gruesome ways).

Willing slavery is still slavery.

No.

Spoiler: SoD

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Xykon shows up at the village (which is something Redcloak did not expect or plan for), and then orders the two to round up the village and burn the huts. Redcloak and Right-Eye both do as told, because they both know that saying no means that everyone dies. The two brothers, all in all, make the same choice, and neither of them is all too enthusiastic about it.

Spoiler

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Yeah, I read the book. Once the immediate threat to his family was past Redcloak took no action to try to free any of them, and they were all killed off by adventurers over the next few years. Right-eye at least managed to save his daughter. Redcloak didn't even think of trying, and was surprised when Right-eye blamed Xykon for their deaths.

[Metastachydium]

As has been pointed out, collectively there are more not-good gods than good-aligned gods in Stickworld's pantheons.

Yup.

He had more options than the other goblins.

Like what?

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Plus he made Xykon a lich in the first place. After he already knew that more goblin deaths would be the likely result.

Spoiler: SoD, p. 62

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Redcloak: „Look, brother, if I really thought he was a danger to our people, I'd be the first to destroy him, but I don't think he is.”

Willing slavery is still slavery.

He did not enslave them, however. Arguably, he basically freed them instead during the battle of Azure City.

Spoiler

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Yeah, I read the book. Once the immediate threat to his family was past Redcloak took no action to try to free any of them, and they were all killed off by adventurers over the next few years. Right-eye at least managed to save his daughter. Redcloak didn't even think of trying, and was surprised when Right-eye blamed Xykon for their deaths.

[/QUOTE]

Spoiler: SoD, pp. 100–101

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Right-Eye blames Xykon rather than Redcloak for his family's conscription and death. Redcloak helped him defeat the adventurers and Right-Eye remembers that, after all. True enough, he did not help them escape, but Right-Eye does not seem to have worked hard on that one, either, although he believed that Xykon does not keep count of them and would not notice their absence.
Also, on p. 101 Redcloak criticizes Right-Eye's plan of having his eye regenerated were his assassination attempt to fail so that he can blend into the crowd as thoroughly stupid, arguing that if Right-Eye knew Xykon, he would also know that if he cannot find the culprit he'd just kill all goblins and be done with that. from that perspective, it is easily understood why Redcloak wanted to avoid conflict with the Bony Bastard.
All in all, stating that he willingly helped X. enslave his family is just unfair.