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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

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    Oct 2019

    Default Tactical Challenge #4

    SPOILER - this installment is based on an AL Mod DDAL04-14, although it will be a modified version to match what my party and DM did. There will be SPOILERS and also some significant changes to the mod as written.

    As before, how would you approach this fight and WHY? What can we learn from this example? Can we win?

    Scenario: You are approaching a BOSS fight in Barovia. If you don't take out the BBEG she will become even more powerful and evil merging her soul with that of a God. You have worked your way through her lair, and need to stop her ritual, and destroy her. The party has no idea HOW to stop the ritual. The party also has no idea what the BBEG's capabilities, resistances, immunities, etc are. (so no meta gaming - the only way to discover a capability or immunity is to observe it, if you attack w/ something the BBEG is immune to the DM will state "it appears to have less effect than you expected.")

    Environment:
    Your party has opened a secret door, past the door is a 5' wide passage 30' long with stairs up to a 10x10 landing. On the landing you see a witch, a suit of Plate, and a door. The witch tells the Plate to guard the door (it animates) and she moves through the door and closes it behind her.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Imp

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    Feb 2017

    Default Re: Tactical Challenge #4

    I'm confused. Do you want to DM this encounter?

    First thing to point out is that with the wording the BBEG chose, the party can safely ignore the plate armor as long as they can 1) get in initiative order b) all of them except the last PC in the initiative order prepare the "move through the door as soon as it's opened/as soon as X teammate when through" reaction c) the last one on initiative order open the door then go through it on their turn.

    The animated plate guard the door, it won't do anything if all the PCs cross it before its turn.
    Last edited by Unoriginal; 2020-10-19 at 01:02 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

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    Oct 2019

    Default Re: Tactical Challenge #4

    Animated Plate Stats:
    Armor Class 21 (natural armor)
    Hit Points 112 (15d8 + 45)
    Speed 30 ft.
    STR DEX CON INT WIS CHA
    17 (+3) 13 (+1) 16 (+3) 9 (-1) 10 (+0) 9 (-1)
    Skills Perception +3
    Damage Resistances cold, fire
    Damage Immunities lightning, poison
    Condition Immunities blinded, charmed, deafened,
    exhaustion, frightened, paralyzed, petrified,
    poisoned
    Senses blindsight 60 ft. (blind beyond this radius),
    Passive Perception 13
    Languages Understands Common but can't speak
    Challenge 6 (2,300 XP)
    Antimagic Susceptibility. The armor is incapacitated
    while in the area of an antimagic field. If targeted by
    dispel magic, the armor must succeed on a
    Constitution saving throw against the caster's spell
    save DC or fall unconscious for 1 minute.
    Actions
    Multiattack. The armor makes two melee attacks or
    uses Shocking Bolt twice.
    Greatsword. Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5
    ft., one target. Hit: 10 (2d6 + 3) slashing damage plus 3
    (1d6) lightning damage.
    Shocking Bolt. Ranged Spell Attack: +4 to hit (with
    advantage on the attack roll if the target is wearing
    armor made of metal), range 60 ft., one target. Hit: 10
    (3d6) lightning damage.

    The Room above:
    20' N-S x 40' E-W room. Door in NE corner. Inside are (1) Thug, (3) Witches, (1) BBEG. There is a ritual under way. The BBEG is at W end, Thug is near door, Witches are evenly spread along S wall.

    Thug stats:
    Armor Class 11 (leather armor)
    Hit Points 32 (5d8 + 10)
    Speed 30 ft.
    STR DEX CON INT WIS CHA
    15 (+2) 11 (+0) 14 (+2) 10 (+0) 10 (+0) 11 (+0)
    Pack Tactics. The thug has advantage on an attack roll
    against a creature if at least one of the thug’s allies is
    within 5 feet of the creature and the ally isn’t
    incapacitated.

    Witches Stats: (3)
    Barovian Witch
    Medium humanoid, chaotic evil
    Armor Class 10
    Hit Points 16 (3d8 + 3)
    Speed 30 ft.
    STR DEX CON INT WIS CHA
    7 (2) 11 (+0) 13 (+1) 14 (+2) 11 (+0) 12 (+1)
    Skills Arcana +4, Perception +2
    Senses darkvision 60 ft., Passive Perception 12
    Languages Common
    Spellcasting. The witch is a 3rd-level spellcaster. Its
    spellcasting ability is Intelligence (spell save DC 12, +4
    to hit with spell attacks). The witch has the following
    wizard spells prepared:
    Cantrips (at will): mage hand, prestidigitation, ray of
    frost
    1st level (4 slots): ray of sickness, sleep, Tasha's hideous
    laughter
    2nd level (2 slots): alter self, invisibility

    * The thugs and witches in the room are
    affected as though they had been the targets of: bless
    (+1d4 on attacks and saving throws), blur
    (disadvantage to be hit by attacks that rely on sight),
    and false life (+15 hit points).


    BBEG Stats:
    Medium humanoid (human), chaotic evil
    Armor Class 16 (natural armor)
    Hit Points 120 (16d8 + 48)
    Speed 30 ft.
    STR DEX CON INT WIS CHA
    13 (+1) 10 (+0) 16 (+3) 20 (+5) 17 (+3) 18 (+4)
    Saving Throws Wis +7, Cha +8
    Damage Resistances bludgeoning, piercing, and
    slashing from nonmagical weapons
    Damage Immunities cold, fire, necrotic, poison
    Condition Immunities charmed, exhaustion,
    frightened, grappled, paralyzed, petrified, poisoned,
    prone, restrained, unconscious
    Skills Arcana +13, Religion +13
    Senses darkvision 60 ft., passive Perception 13; BBEG
    sees through all forms of darkness
    Languages Abyssal, Common, Draconic, Infernal,
    Sylvan; telepathy 100 ft.
    Challenge 11 (7,200 XP)
    Darkness Breeds Darkness. BBEG has advantage on
    ability checks and attack rolls against characters with
    the Touched by the Mists story award. Similarly, such
    characters have disadvantage on any saving throw
    made against BBEG.

    Blessing of Mother Night. BBEG is shielded against
    divination magic, as though she was protected by a
    nondetection spell.
    Legendary Resistance (3/day). If BBEG fails a saving
    throw, she succeeds instead.
    Vestige of the Evening Glory. If BBEG fails a saving
    throw against the magic locket and has no more uses
    of legendary resistance, the Evening Glory is pulled
    from within her she loses: all damage immunities, all
    condition immunities except charmed, blessing of the
    Mother Night, and two legendary actions per turn. In
    addition, her kiss no longer heals her.
    Spellcasting. BBEG is a 13th-level spellcaster. Her
    spellcasting ability is Intelligence (spell save DC 16, +8
    to hit with spell attacks). BBEG has the following
    wizard spells prepared:
    Cantrips: acid splash, fire bolt, light, mage hand,
    prestidigitation
    1st level (4 slots): charm person, magic missile, shield,
    witch bolt
    2nd level (3 slots): crown of madness, hypnotic pattern,
    misty step
    3rd level (3 slots): counterspell, dispel magic, fireball,
    lightning bolt
    4th level (3 slots): blight, Evard’s black tentacles,
    polymorph
    5th level (2 slots): cloudkill
    6th level (1 slot): disintegrate
    7th level (1 slot): finger of death
    Actions
    Multiattack. BBEG makes three attacks with her Kiss.
    Kiss. Melee Spell Attack: +8 to hit, reach 5 ft., one
    target. Hit: 14 (3d6 + 4) psychic damage and the target
    must succeed in a DC 16 Wisdom saving throw or be
    charmed. The charmed target regards BBEG as his or
    her true love to be heeded and protected, through
    violence against others if need be. Although the target
    isn't under BBEG's control, it takes BBEG's requests
    or actions in the most favorable way it can. Each time
    BBEG or BBEG's companions do anything harmful to
    the target, it can repeat the saving throw, ending the
    effect on itself on a success. Otherwise, the effect lasts
    24 hours or until BBEG is destroyed, is on a different
    plane of existence than the target, or takes a bonus
    action to end the effect. BBEG heals half of the
    psychic damage done.
    Legendary Actions
    BBEG can take 3 legendary actions, choosing from the
    options below. Only one legendary action option can
    be used at a time, and only at the end of another
    creature's turn. BBEG regains spent legendary actions
    at the start of her turn. BBEG can’t use the same
    legendary action twice in a row.
     Anything for Love. Each victim of BBEG’s kiss
    attacks a creature within reach.
     Blow a Kiss. BBEG moves her speed without
    provoking opportunity attacks and then uses kiss
    against a target within 30 feet.
     Loving Concentration. BBEG transfers the ability to
    maintain concentration of a spell she has cast to an
    ally.
     Love's Flickering Flame. BBEG lights a candle which
    casts a cantrip at a target of her choice.
     Ritual Casting. BBEG maintains the transformation
    ritual.
     Love Conquers All (costs 2 actions). BBEG ends a
    condition that she began her action with.
    Lair Actions
    On initiative count 20 (losing initiative ties), BBEG
    takes a lair action to cause one of the following effects;
    BBEG can't use the same effect two rounds in a row:
     Candle Caster. One of the candles in the room burns
    out, triggering a spell as if it had been cast by BBEG.
    This spell uses one of her slots but emanates from
    any point in the room she wishes.
     Candle Flare. All candles in the room flare brightly.
    BBEG's enemies who can see must make a DC 16
    Constitution saving throw or be blinded until the end
    of their action.
     Love Never Dies. One of BBEG's allies returns to life
    with half hit points.
     Vision of Beauty. Moonlight fills the room. All
    creatures that were charmed by BBEG but no
    longer are, stare longingly at her until the end of
    their next turn; granting enemies advantage on
    attacks rolls. These victims may still act normally.

  4. - Top - End - #4

    Default Re: Tactical Challenge #4

    Quote Originally Posted by da newt View Post
    SPOILER - this installment is based on an AL Mod DDAL04-14, although it will be a modified version to match what my party and DM did. There will be SPOILERS and also some significant changes to the mod as written.

    As before, how would you approach this fight and WHY? What can we learn from this example? Can we win?

    Scenario: You are approaching a BOSS fight in Barovia. If you don't take out the BBEG she will become even more powerful and evil merging her soul with that of a God. You have worked your way through her lair, and need to stop her ritual, and destroy her. The party has no idea HOW to stop the ritual. The party also has no idea what the BBEG's capabilities, resistances, immunities, etc are. (so no meta gaming - the only way to discover a capability or immunity is to observe it, if you attack w/ something the BBEG is immune to the DM will state "it appears to have less effect than you expected.")

    Environment:
    Your party has opened a secret door, past the door is a 5' wide passage 30' long with stairs up to a 10x10 landing. On the landing you see a witch, a suit of Plate, and a door. The witch tells the Plate to guard the door (it animates) and she moves through the door and closes it behind her.
    Well, in that case I'm going for things that are always reliable or at least readily observed. Exploit movement speed, magical weapon or force attacks, Confusion or Slow or Tasha's instead of Hypnotic Pattern or Fear (but she'll probably have legendary resistance anyway). Good place for a Shepherd Druid and a Sharpshooter Fighter, and hopefully somebody with Chill Touch to shut down regen/heal. Cast Dispel Magic on her a couple times from other PCs just in case. Be ready to take out minions with AoEs. Cast Death Ward beforehand if possible on everybody in the party. Don't bring squishies in closer than necessary, and/or have them Hide. Send in a conjured Fire Elemental on point if possible, that's fairly reliable against undead.

    But I'm really disappointed in myself for not gathering information beforehand (Augury, Divination, Scrying, taking to sages, listening to local legends, etc.) to have at least some idea what she's like. If we all die horribly it's our own dumb fault for going in blind. (At least that's what my PC will be thinking. Maybe in reality it's the player's fault for deliberately cranking up difficulty by choosing to be manipulated into rushing, because sometimes the smart way is also a boring way.)

    Can't really say anything specific about tactics though without knowing more details like who is in the party, what level we are, etc.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2020-10-19 at 01:16 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

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    Oct 2019

    Default Re: Tactical Challenge #4

    Bad Guy Heuristics:
    The Animated Plate will block the door, block the top of the stairs, and attack the closest Party member.
    The Thug will attack the first party member through the door and position himself between the threat and the BBEG.
    The Witches will dodge if they are concentrating on one of the BBEG's spells. Otherwise they will cast Tasha's Hideous Laughter.
    The BBEG will ensure she keeps the ritual going. She will cast Evard's and then Cloud Kill and pass Conc to Witches. She will KISS the nearest party member whenever able.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

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    Oct 2019

    Default Re: Tactical Challenge #4

    Your Party: All Lvl 9

    Bugbear, Bear Totem Barbarian 4 / BM Fighter 5, PAM, shield, half plate, Cloak of Protection, +1 Staff, Dueling FS, 18 ST, 14 DX, 16 CO, 8 IN, 12 WI, 8 CH, AC 19, 86 hp, Precision Att, Menacing Att, Riposte.

    V Human OotA Paladin, Shield Master, plate, shield, +1 Long Sword, Defensive FS, 18 St, 10 DX, 14 CO, 8 IN, 12 WI, 16 CH, AC 21, hp 72

    Goblin Thief, SS, +1 Studded Leather, +1 Short Bow, 12 ST, 18 DX, 16 CO, 8 IN, 12 WI, 8 CH, AC 17, hp 71

    V Human Life Cleric, War Caster, Res Con, Chain Mail, +1 Shield, Mace, 14 ST, 12 DX, 16 CO, 8 IN, 16 WI, 10 CH, AC 18, hp 71

    Half Elf Celestial Warlock, Pact of Tome, War Caster, +1 Studded Leather, Staff, 10 ST, 12 DX, 16 CO, 8 IN, 12 WI, 18 CH, AC 14, hp 71

    Stout Halfling Moon Druid, War Caster, shield, scale mail, staff, 10 ST, 12 DX, 16 CO, 8 IN, 18 WI, CH 10, AC 17, 71 hp

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2019

    Default Re: Tactical Challenge #4

    Starting position:

    Your Party is at the bottom of the stairs (30' from the landing at the top and the Animated Armor) in this marching order:
    Paladin
    Barbarian
    Thief
    Druid
    Cleric
    Warlock

    Initiative order:
    Barbarian
    Animated Armor
    Cleric
    Thug
    Druid
    Witches (3)
    Paladin
    BBEG
    Thief
    Warlock

    Of note, your Barbarian, Thief and Paladin all have been "touched by the mist" and therefore the BBEG has advantage on ability checks and attack rolls against these PCs. Similarly, such characters have disadvantage on any saving throw made against BBEG.

    The bad guys in the upper room will ready actions if no party members have moved the Animated Armor out of the way, opened the door, and stepped into the room.

    Choose your spells and actions. What will you do and WHY?

    (My party was TPK-ed. We did not know how to stop the ritual, we really struggled to get up the stairs and past the animated armor, and then the BBEG kissed us into spectators. We got SPANKED.)

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

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    Oct 2019

    Default Re: Tactical Challenge #4

    Unorigional: Your party is at the bottom of the stairs, 30' from the animated armor, he is standing in front of the door at the top of the landing.

    Max: Let me know if you need more info.

  9. - Top - End - #9

    Default Re: Tactical Challenge #4

    Quote Originally Posted by da newt View Post
    Unorigional: Your party is at the bottom of the stairs, 30' from the animated armor, he is standing in front of the door at the top of the landing.

    Max: Let me know if you need more info.
    Spells known/prepared is essential knowledge. I don't want to recommend something that you just can't do, e.g. tell you to spam Vrocks and conjured animals up the stairs for the first five rounds or so, if it turns out that the Celestialock doesn't know Summon Greater Demon and the Moon Druid doesn't know Conjure Animal. (Vrock is first up the stairs, Stuns, and then next round releases spores. Animals charge up there after the Stun to take advantage on the opening. PCs at the bottom can all just focus on killing the Animated Armor easily.)

    BTW, wow, Goblin Thief? What a waste of a racial feature! Should have been a Goblin Bard.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2020-10-19 at 03:22 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Imp

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    Default Re: Tactical Challenge #4

    All the Animated Armor does is guard the door. Not past the door.

    First turn:

    Barbarian: advance however many feet needed to be close enough to the door while leaving the space for team, Ready "advance through the door as soon as it's opened"

    Animated armor: does nothing

    Cleric: advance however many feet needed to be close enough to the door while leaving the space for team, Ready "advance through the door as soon as the Barbarian went in"
    Druid: advance however many feet needed to be close enough to the door while leaving the space for team, Ready "advance through the door as soon as the Barbarian goes in"
    Paladin: advance however many feet needed to be close enough to the door while leaving the space for team, Ready "advance through the door as soon as the Cleric goes in"
    Thief: advance however many feet needed to be close enough to the door while leaving the space for team, Ready "advance through the door as soon as the Paladin went in"
    Warlock: advance to the door, open it, let their team go through, gets in the room via Dash if needed, otherwise use spell on enemies

    Second turn:

    Barbarian: close door with free object interraction, bonus action Rage, attack target.

    Animated armor: *does nothing as the door is still guarded*


    Does anyone see a hole in this reasoning?

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Valmark's Avatar

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    Default Re: Tactical Challenge #4

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    All the Animated Armor does is guard the door. Not past the door.

    First turn:

    Barbarian: advance however many feet needed to be close enough to the door while leaving the space for team, Ready "advance through the door as soon as it's opened"

    Animated armor: does nothing

    Cleric: advance however many feet needed to be close enough to the door while leaving the space for team, Ready "advance through the door as soon as the Barbarian went in"
    Druid: advance however many feet needed to be close enough to the door while leaving the space for team, Ready "advance through the door as soon as the Barbarian goes in"
    Paladin: advance however many feet needed to be close enough to the door while leaving the space for team, Ready "advance through the door as soon as the Cleric goes in"
    Thief: advance however many feet needed to be close enough to the door while leaving the space for team, Ready "advance through the door as soon as the Paladin went in"
    Warlock: advance to the door, open it, let their team go through, gets in the room via Dash if needed, otherwise use spell on enemies

    Second turn:

    Barbarian: close door with free object interraction, bonus action Rage, attack target.

    Animated armor: *does nothing as the door is still guarded*


    Does anyone see a hole in this reasoning?
    It says that it guards the stairs too and attacks closest party member. Why not just Dispel Magic? It has a terribly low save, no more then two are needed and then there is a minute to destroy it/go kill the BBEG.

    da newt, is there a time limit? Throwing inside the above room a Silence spell then letting the druid flood it with Conjure Animals seems like the easiest way to crush the evil people, before factoring in the other four party members. I assume the BBEG can't leave the room?
    Last edited by Valmark; 2020-10-19 at 03:33 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Tactical Challenge #4

    Unorigional - The Animated Armor will attack anyone in melee range, and stand in front of the door where no PC's can pass through his space to access the door. It has a INT of 9 and understands "guard the door" better than all the 8 INT PC's would due to it's superior Int. It will act just as tactically as they would.

    Val: The only time limit is 10 rounds to complete the ritual, but the party has no knowledge of this time limit. The BBEG must maintain the ritual every round, but there is nothing RAW that requires them to stay in the room (but RAI - I'd assume they would).

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    IsaacsAlterEgo's Avatar

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    Default Re: Tactical Challenge #4

    Bard tries to convince the Armor that it will be following the letter of it's command, if not the intent, by opening the door for us so that we can pass by safely without causing any harm to the door. Probably offers the Armor friendship and freedom, along with better treatment than the BBEG. With expertise, surely not an impossible roll.

    After that, when we make it to the witch, the bard makes the argument to her assuming that she is not outright suicidal/omnicidal that when the BBEG becomes a literal god that was even more evil than before it would be just as likely to hurt her and anything she cares about as much as anything else. Hopefully she sees, quite logically, that the BBEG's plan coming to fruition is as bad for her as anyone else and dishes on their weaknesses. We then use that info to fight the BBEG and disrupt the ritual.

    Relies on two fairly high persuasion checks most likely, but with expertise, guidance, inspiration, maybe someone helping to give advantage, it's definitely not impossible.

  14. - Top - End - #14

    Default Re: Tactical Challenge #4

    Quote Originally Posted by da newt View Post
    Unorigional - The Animated Armor will attack anyone in melee range, and stand in front of the door where no PC's can pass through his space to access the door. It has a INT of 9 and understands "guard the door" better than all the 8 INT PC's would due to it's superior Int. It will act just as tactically as they would.

    Val: The only time limit is 10 rounds to complete the ritual, but the party has no knowledge of this time limit. The BBEG must maintain the ritual every round, but there is nothing RAW that requires them to stay in the room (but RAI - I'd assume they would).
    Any word on the spells? Because if Vrocks + conjured wolves (or whatever) are indeed an option, they're going to kill that BBEG long before 10 rounds is up.

    BTW, easiest way to deal with the armor is to probably just to have the barbarian shove it off the end of the stairs. Repeat if necessary every time it climbs up. Use Readied Action: Shove for extra hilarity.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2020-10-19 at 04:14 PM.

  15. - Top - End - #15
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    Valmark's Avatar

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    Default Re: Tactical Challenge #4

    Alright, so I assume the party knows to try and be fast. It says that the boss could fail a save against a 'magic locket'& what's that about?

    Meanwhile first round seems obvious enough- barbarian comes up and shoves the armor away from the door, then opens it. Gets attack by the armor, then cleric comes around and Readies to Silence the room. The thug knocks on the barbarian, then the druid fills the room with Conjure Animals and orders them to kill the BBEG, then cleric Silences. Warlock Dispels the Armor. I have no idea what the paladin will do yet.

    The witches can't do **** and the BBEG by the time she can do something will be forced to engage the animals (and can't order them, assuming animals survive an attack from it).

    This is just a rough draft while I wait for the reply, but I think that's a pretty sweet position to be in.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Imp

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    Default Re: Tactical Challenge #4

    Alright, if you say it's what the armor does it's what the armor does.

    Question: how do you rule people getting shoved while into the stairs?

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Tactical Challenge #4

    Didn't you post a thread complaining about this 6 months ago or more? :) I seem to recall reading exactly this situation described.

    A couple of comments ...
    1) The module STARTS with "In previous adventures they have identified their enemy as the witch Esmae Amarantha, learned of her plan, and recovered a magical locket that can be used as a weapon against her."

    If the characters don't know about the BBEG's plan, don't have or know about the locket and what it can do, or know the identity of the witch then the DM really didn't set the scene properly.

    This is covered in part 1 where one of the things the party should learn is:

    "The characters are in possession of a magical locket that was used by Esmae to draw the vestige of the Evening Glory from its prison in the Amber Temple. They should be able to use it to do the
    same to Esmae."

    NPCs needed in trying to locate Esmae include two options with knowledge of the locket and how to use it.

    Spoiler: The locket
    Show
    "How Do I Use This Locket?
    The characters have in their possession a magical locket recovered in DDAL04-10 The Artifact and attuned to Esmae in DDAL04-13 The Horseman such that they can use it to draw the vestige of the Evening Glory out of Esmae. Ixusaxa and Jeny both believe that it must be presented forcefully in some manner to do so; likely in a way similar to how it was used to pull for the possessing ghosts in the Amber Temple. They suggest being obvious and loud but are stumped on details as to how to do it and exactly what will happen. Note: The characters do not know this but to use the locket, the character must use an action to present it forcefully to Esmae and loudly demand the Evening Glory depart her body. Esmae then must attempt a DC 15 Charisma saving throw to prevent the vestige from being pulled out. The DC increases by 5 for attempt made to entrap the vestige."


    Here is how Esmae is supposed to be played.

    Spoiler: Esmae
    Show
    In order to ritual going she must use one action every round for ten rounds while possessed by the Evening Glory, either her own or a legendary action. If she cannot do so, the ritual is disrupted. In addition, she saves her legendary resistance ability for effects that prevent her from casting the ritual, banish her, or exorcise the Evening Glory.


    Did you folks have the locket and at least a minimal idea of what it does and how to use it? Without that, the DM pretty much decided you weren't supposed to succeed at this encounter or at least left the only option to beat her down with all of her advantages and resistances. The DM also upped the difficulty a bit by adding a couple of witches.

    2) The thug and witches are cannon fodder to slow the party down and stop them from focusing on Esmae. The armor is intended to delay the party.

    However, the room at the top of the spiral stair is 10x20. Did the DM eliminate that forcing single file on a circular staircase with just the armor at the top?

    If the room is the 10x20 from the module, the characters need to surround the armor. Rage/reckless ... shield bash from the paladin to knock it prone - possibly grapple to keep it there. Alternatively, leave it up for the ranged rogue but he can always step in and attack with his short sword then disengage. The cleric could throw up an upcast spirit guardians and later cast spiritual weapon. It is important to eliminate the armor before opening the door. The paladin should smite to take it down more quickly.

    If the landing is 5'x5' with the stair ending there allowing only 1 character to attack in melee at a time then the DM decided to force you to lose since the delay factor goes way up. Still probably best with the rage/reckless barbarian in front backed up by the cleric with spirit guardians running. If the rogue can get a shot from third in line - do it since sharpshooter prevents issues with cover and he will still get sneak attack. However, it will probably take 3-4 rounds to take down, possibly longer with bad luck, if the DM makes it impossible to use all the characters to take out the armor.

    Note: The module gives the armor instructions as "she directs to the armor to the top of the stairs to defend them against all comers" ... so running past isn't an option it might be if she actually told it to defend the door.

    3) Once the way is clear ... party prepares to enter the room. The druid upcasts conjure animals from outside the door - the BBEG can't counterspell what they can't see. A 5tg level slot will conjure 16 wolves or 4 dire wolves/bears. These are either sufficient to harry the BBEG or eliminate the thug/witches so the players can focus on the BBEG.

    The BBEG is supposed to use spells from range ... with bad luck, disintegrate will instantly kill one character. Finger of death could take out another. Fireball might be less of an issue since it affects everyone in the room but the BBEG might not care since they are immune to fire. The BBEG is not immune to prone so shield bash could help and magical weapons do full damage.

    As for the next room, the witches don't have much in the way of spells, hit points or attacks ... an upcast spirit guardians actually has a decent chance of killing them.

    The characters may deduce that since the thug and witches run to engage the characters that Esmae must be doing something towards the ritual and they will see her use her action or a legendary action to continue the ritual. So clearly, if they want to disrupt the ritual they have to prevent Esmae from using an action to continue the ritual. This could be either the DM forgetting to use the action :) or taking Esmae down to zero hit points or using the locket to recover the remnant of the dark god and make Esmae much easier to fight.

    The biggest threat is probably the effect of the kiss. However, the kiss is a melee spell attack which means that it can be ended by dispel magic or potentially even counterspelled if someone in the party can cast it ... though that is probably too expensive to consider. This is one of those situations where a devotion paladin might be preferable to an ancients one since their 7th level aura blocks charm effects. :)

    On the other hand, once it becomes obvious that the BBEG is using charm - which happens as soon as someone fails, this would be an ideal time for the cleric to cast calm emotions making the entire party immune to charm and the frightened condition. More useful is that your friends can choose to fail the save automatically .. which of course they would do since their friend the cleric is casting it even if they are also in love with the BBEG ... the spell isn't being cast on the BBEG so how can it harm them?

    Once the party is immune to charm then although the BBEG still gets advantage to attack the ones affected by the mists ... it should go much quicker, especially if they can burn off the legendary saving throws. Keep in mind that the BBEG in this case has no choice in using the legendary saves. If they fail a save then they have to use one. "Legendary Resistance (3/day). If BBEG fails a saving throw, she succeeds instead." For this NPC, use of legendary saves is not optional. This means that they could potentially be burned off using sacred flame or another cantrip. On the other hand, the DM might have changed that to make the NPC more challenging.

    Anyway, I think the key spell in this case is probably Calm Emotions from the cleric to suppress and prevent the charm effect during the fight.

  18. - Top - End - #18
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    Default Re: Tactical Challenge #4

    Just a couple of comments.

    1) Dispel magic doesn't work against a construct unless the DM decides it does.

    "Choose one creature, object, or magical effect within range. Any spell of 3rd level or lower on the target ends."

    RAW, dispel magic in 5e just dispels spells or similar magical effects. Dispel magic doesn't work to stop constructs (including warforged), golems, undead, or the functioning of magic items as it did in previous editions.

    2) RAW, you can't ready shove.

    "Using the Attack action, you can make a special melee attack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or push it away from you."

    Ready is distinct from the Attack action even if you use ready to prepare an attack. So, at least RAW, you can't shove with a Ready action. It's similar to why you can't shove or grapple with an opportunity attack.

    3) I really liked the idea of the silence spell. However, it doesn't shut down the kiss of the BBEG which is the biggest threat to the party in this case. At least three of the party are almost guaranteed to be charmed with advantage on the attack and disadvantage on the DC 16 saving throw. Although the paladin might be able to make it, the barbarian is likely to fail. Using the summoned animals to prevent the BBEG from moving might work though or at least slow them down. The BBEG does have counterspell and that does not require a verbal component but she only has one reaction/turn.
    Last edited by Keravath; 2020-10-19 at 04:55 PM.

  19. - Top - End - #19

    Default Re: Tactical Challenge #4

    Quote Originally Posted by Keravath View Post
    Just a couple of comments.

    1) Dispel magic doesn't work against a construct unless the DM decides it does.

    "Choose one creature, object, or magical effect within range. Any spell of 3rd level or lower on the target ends."

    RAW, dispel magic in 5e just dispels spells or similar magical effects. Dispel magic doesn't work to stop constructs (including warforged), golems, undead, or the functioning of magic items as it did in previous editions.
    In this case the armor has Antimagic Susceptibility which calls out Dispel Magic specifically as a vulnerability.

  20. - Top - End - #20
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    Default Re: Tactical Challenge #4

    Quote Originally Posted by Keravath View Post
    Just a couple of comments.

    1) Dispel magic doesn't work against a construct unless the DM decides it does.

    "Choose one creature, object, or magical effect within range. Any spell of 3rd level or lower on the target ends."

    RAW, dispel magic in 5e just dispels spells or similar magical effects. Dispel magic doesn't work to stop constructs (including warforged), golems, undead, or the functioning of magic items as it did in previous editions.

    2) RAW, you can't ready shove.

    "Using the Attack action, you can make a special melee attack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or push it away from you."

    Ready is distinct from the Attack action even if you use ready to prepare an attack. So, at least RAW, you can't shove with a Ready action. It's similar to why you can't shove or grapple with an opportunity attack.

    3) I really liked the idea of the silence spell. However, it doesn't shut down the kiss of the BBEG which is the biggest threat to the party in this case. At least three of the party are almost guaranteed to be charmed with advantage on the attack and disadvantage on the DC 16 saving throw. Although the paladin might be able to make it, the barbarian is likely to fail. Using the summoned animals to prevent the BBEG from moving might work though or at least slow them down. The BBEG does have counterspell and that does not require a verbal component but she only has one reaction/turn.
    The armor says it's susceptible to Dispel Magic, not the spell.

    Who has readied Shove? I think I was the only one to talk about Readying something and that was Silence.

    To be fair, it's arguable wether Silence stops the Kiss' effects or not- with Silence the BBEG can't order the kissed characters around, but just in case I preferred engaging the BBEG with the animals at least initially.
    Last edited by Valmark; 2020-10-19 at 05:24 PM.

  21. - Top - End - #21

    Default Re: Tactical Challenge #4

    Quote Originally Posted by Valmark View Post
    The armor says it's susceptible to Dispel Magic, not the spell.

    Who has readied Shove? I think I was the only one to talk about Readying something and that was Silence.
    Me. I said the Barbarian could even Ready a Shove (Attack action) to shove the armor off the stairs every time it climbs back up.

    I have never seen a DM rule that grapples cannot be readied--that ruling would make Mobile Earth Elementals extremely strong. Nor does the Ready action forbid you from Readying an Attack (Shove) in the first place, so forbidding it would actually be incorrect by RAW as well.

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    Default Re: Tactical Challenge #4

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Me. I said the Barbarian could even Ready a Shove (Attack action) to shove the armor off the stairs every time it climbs back up.

    I have never seen a DM rule that grapples cannot be readied--that ruling would make Mobile Earth Elementals extremely strong. Nor does the Ready action forbid you from Readying an Attack (Shove) in the first place, so forbidding it would actually be incorrect by RAW as well.
    Oh right, I had overlooked that. I agree with Wilson on this too, I don't see anything stopping a player from Readying the Attack action to Shove somebody (I never saw that happen though so I can't speak from experience).

  23. - Top - End - #23
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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Tactical Challenge #4

    The party thief is in possession of the locket. They know it is important, but nothing else. (as per Keravath's post, we've got it but don't know how to use it - yes I have scars from this encounter)

    The paladin is the first in line in a 5' wide passage/stairs 30' from the landing and animated armor (landing/armor are at the top, party at the bottom). The barbarian/BM is behind the paladin so it takes 10' of movement to move through his space, then 20', ending up 10' short of the Armor. To reach the armor on the first round would require action dash, then action surge to attack/shove, assuming BA used to rage, leaving 2 attempts, if shove succeeds, then they can open the door and move into the room. Armor has 17 ST, no Ath prof so raging Barb w/ Ath has hi prob to succeed, but will trigger an OpAtt as he steps to/through door. Then on Armor's turn step back into blocking position and attack.

    The first obstacle of this encounter is the 5' wide passage/stairs just to get to the landing and armor so that you can attempt to move it out of the way to access the door. The landing is 10x10. The passage/stairs are 5' wide, 30' long.

    Your party does not know that the Armor has any vulnerabilities or immunities. You can only learn by trying and observing.

    DM ruling - yes you can ready an attack action (1) and use that action to attempt a shove when the trigger condition is met. You can only shove a creature into an unoccupied space and 5' or prone.

    There is no party bard. Any attempt to persuade the Armor that it should betray it's allies will have a VERY high DC.

    The BBEG legendary action to blow a kiss has a 30' range. The KISS is a spell attack but it does not list if it includes verbal components. We will assume somatic only. Reminder 3 of the party are at DISADV to all saves. BBEG will cast Evard's and Cloud Kill on first two rounds (passing conc to witches) unless someone forces something different.

    As written a party of 6 lvl 9 PCs = a Very Strong party and it is recommended that the DM Add another Barovian witch and a thug. Give Esmae another 30 hit points and increase her AC by 1. It takes Esmae 8 rounds to complete the ritual. Our DM nerfed this recommendation some.

  24. - Top - End - #24

    Default Re: Tactical Challenge #4

    Quote Originally Posted by da newt View Post
    Your party does not know that the Armor has any vulnerabilities or immunities. You can only learn by trying and observing.
    To be fair, Dispel Magic a pretty standard vulnerability for animated objects in 5E. It's not just this particular suit of armor.

    As written a party of 6 lvl 9 PCs = a Very Strong party and it is recommended that the DM Add another Barovian witch and a thug. Give Esmae another 30 hit points and increase her AC by 1. It takes Esmae 8 rounds to complete the ritual. Our DM nerfed this recommendation some.
    I don't think it makes a difference. Another witch and a thug will still die swiftly to all of the conjured animals + vrocks/etc. That is, assuming I can pick the spell loadout? I've asked multiple times but not seen an answer so I guess... I'll just run the fight assuming that I get to choose all of the spells on all of the casters, and all of the Celestialock's invocations??? Maybe Kiss will work better than I expect it to on the Vrock(s) and wolves (while PCs bombard with AoEs and Eldritch Blast from the doorway and then duck back behind cover).

    Man, the idea of a Vrock who thinks its True Love is a human is... quite funny. I wonder how a Vrock would naturally treat its beloved.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2020-10-19 at 07:50 PM.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Tactical Challenge #4

    This is a hard setup for the party in question. There is no flipping way to guess that the animated armor is susceptible to dispel magic unless some kind of hint was dropped by the DM or the players cheated.

    The barbarian PAM build so ditching his staff and grappling probably never even cross his mind. Certainly not until one round of misses passes by trying to futilely hit the armor.

    So maybe after the first round of attacking the armor if the team realizes it has high AC they might change to having the barbarian grapple it and shove it prone so it has zero movement.

    The rest of the party charges up. Paladin should engage Thug. Druid should cast summon animals (giant owls), cleric should cast a spirit guardian upcasted, warlock no clue what spells he has access to should cast something useful.

    If the BBEG kiss is successful I think maybe a dispel magic or calm emotions should be dropped.

    Giant owls should fly in and start beating on the BBEG, and witches. The fight should go well for the group once the Thug and witches are taken care of. The only thing is that the barbarian will need to outlast the animated armor with his rage and hps.

  26. - Top - End - #26
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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Tactical Challenge #4

    Sorry Max - this was hidden in the mix under Initiative Order.

    "Choose your spells and actions. What will you do and WHY?"

  27. - Top - End - #27

    Default Re: Tactical Challenge #4

    Quote Originally Posted by Gignere View Post
    This is a hard setup for the party in question. There is no flipping way to guess that the animated armor is susceptible to dispel magic unless some kind of hint was dropped by the DM or the players cheated.
    It's standard for animated objects. Totally plausible for PCs to know. Would be more surprising if it turned out NOT to be vulnerable. In any case it's simple enough to kill before entering the room--how you kill it basically doesn't matter. It can't stand up to six 9th level PCs and their summons.

  28. - Top - End - #28
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Tactical Challenge #4

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    It's standard for animated objects. Totally plausible for PCs to know. Would be more surprising if it turned out NOT to be vulnerable. In any case it's simple enough to kill before entering the room--how you kill it basically doesn't matter. It can't stand up to six 9th level PCs and their summons.
    Plausible, but shouldn't be assumed, after all the PCs in question may have never come across animated objects before or just never learned this weakness.
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    Default Re: Tactical Challenge #4

    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    Plausible, but shouldn't be assumed, after all the PCs in question may have never come across animated objects before or just never learned this weakness.
    My point is that it's definitely not in the "no possible way the PCs could know without cheating" category. It's not really any more esoteric than knowing that Strahd presumably has a Legendary Action to let him move without taking opportunity attacks. (I'm AFB but I think he's just like a normal vampire, plus spells and lair actions but with regular legendaries.) This thing is a bigger, tougher animated armor, that's all. For all we know they cover this in standard Arcana 302: Investiture and Intent.

    (On the other hand, there is no wizard so maybe no one in the party has ever studied Arcana.)

  30. - Top - End - #30
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    Default Re: Tactical Challenge #4

    Sorcerer subtle spell telekinesis 30ft from the witch, target the witch, it’s a skill check she has a high chance of failing And legendary resistance will not work on skill checks. Yoink her spell focus/spell component pouch a way to gimp her, since she has to follow the rules of wizard spell casting and requires one or the other. Or she’s SoL and can no longer perform her function as a wizard.

    If that doesn’t work, give her the Skyrim treatment. Throw a bucket on her head disabling her action to Use an item action to remove it, to use spells that require sight. Rest of the party should be able to brute their way through after that I hope.
    Last edited by vexedart; 2020-10-20 at 05:26 AM. Reason: Was wrong, telekinesis isn’t viable for twin spell

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