Kineticist power, is this correct ?

[Kurnagar]

Hello,

I need some help from the rules specialist out here to check if i'm understanding correctly
the way the kineticist class is working.

So, here is the background. We're playing pathfinder 1 rise of the runelords anniversary edition,
not that it does matter really but anyway.

One of the player is a gnome level 9 kineticist with 20 (+5) constitution.
His element is air.

At level 9, his physical blast is 5d6+10 ( (1d6+1) + (1d6+1) per 2 level beyond 1st + CON)
His energy blast is 5d6+2
This is basic damage without having already any burn.

With metakinesis (starting from level 5) et can empower his blast to 7d6+15 and 7d6+3.
This costs a burn, but thanks to infusion specialization (from level 5) he can reduce with a move
action the burn cost by 1, so no burn.
His element being air, he can of course fly.
So basically, he can blast safely from above every round for 7d6+15.
Of course he must hit, but if the opponent has a high armor class et can use the energy blast
to make a touch attack, wich is often nearly un-missable.
Moreover, as it requires absolutely nothing but concentration, he cannot be silenced or prevented
from using his blast in nearly any way.

So my question is the following: Is this correct as i find this quite powerfull.
Let me be clear, it's not a problem that it's powerfull (or not), i adapt the encounters but i wondered
if we're really doing things correctly or are we missing something ?
And I'm aware "uglier" stuff can be done with other classes, but that's not my interest.

I might have other advanced questions later but they're depending wether or not this is correct.

I hope someone will confirm or correct this and give me their toughts on the kineticist power.

Thanks and sorry for my bad english.

[KillianHawkeye]

That's pretty much correct, although it's Gather Energy (a Move+ action) that he uses to reduce the burn from metakinesis, not Infusion Specialization (as that only applies to infusions). At 9th level, he can expect to get some free low-level infusion on every blast even without gathering energy. Or empowered blast or a better infusion if he does gather energy (or empowered blast plus a free low-level infusion). And he has enough Con to rack up a lot of burn if he needs to.

The air kineticist does obviously have the best flying of any of them, allowing him the ability to hover in mid air with the 3rd level flight utility power, since it replicates the fly spell. This does negate some of the downside of having to spend his move action gathering energy to use his stronger blasts, compared to other kinds of kineticists.

But yes, throwing out a middling amount of consistent damage is basically what kineticists are best at. They can only use their strongest blasts a handful of times per day, but they do get better at adding blast effects as they level up.

EDIT: They're pretty comparable to the 3.5 edition D&D's Warlock class, which is considered mid tier. Most people here consider the Kineticst weak due to its downsides, but it sure can throw consistent damage with the right set up, and air is IMO one of the better element choices.

[Kurald Galain]

HSo my question is the following: Is this correct as i find this quite powerfull.

That's 39 damage per round, on average. That's really not powerful for level 9; any character's full attack will deal more than that, or a bog-standard Fireball deals 32 damage to a wide area. Surely there's nothing "ugly" about that.

[Psyren]

One of the player is a gnome level 9 kineticist with 20 (+5) constitution.
His element is air.

At level 9, his physical blast is 5d6+10 ( (1d6+1) + (1d6+1) per 2 level beyond 1st + CON)
His energy blast is 5d6+2
This is basic damage without having already any burn.

What are the character's other stats? Because you only get any of that damage if you actually hit your target, and that is the biggest problem with using physical blasts by far. You say you're not taking any burn, but you'll need to take at least 3 to fill your Overflow and get a decent shot. The Simple Monster Arrays expect that you can regularly hit AC 25 at level 9, and that's mooks, not bosses (who will be closer to 27/29.) Assuming 14 Dex, that means you'll need a 17 on the die to hit at the low end without any burn, or 13 on the die with, i.e. a 60% chance that your turn was wasted. DR applies to physical blasts too.

Your odds of hitting with energy blast are much higher as it is a touch attack, but the damage conversely is much lower (5d6+2, 5d6+6 with full buffer - +3 from the buffer and +1 from the size bonus.) It's also subject to spell resistance and energy resistance, though electricity is at least fairly uncommon element to resist most of the time.

With metakinesis (starting from level 5) et can empower his blast to 7d6+15 and 7d6+3.
This costs a burn, but thanks to infusion specialization (from level 5) he can reduce with a move
action the burn cost by 1, so no burn.
His element being air, he can of course fly.
So basically, he can blast safely from above every round for 7d6+15.

Did you mean Gather Power here? Infusion Specialization doesn't interact with Metakinesis.

You're correct that you can reduce the burn from Empower to zero, but that will take your move and standard action every round, so you will be stationary in the air. This makes you an easy target for ranged attackers, and also means you can't maintain your minimum forward speed to stay up there. You can Hover with an easy fly check (DC 15, i.e. DC 11 thanks to your Good speed), but keep in mind that various debuffs and even getting hit can interfere with this strategy.

So with Gather Power + Empower you will do on average 7d6+8 with your energy blast, or~ 32 damage per round. That's without moving, against a single enemy (no infusions), no rider effects on the blast (no infusions again), with no spell resistance or energy resistance. That's also with a full buffer, so you're down 27 hitpoints for the whole day, i.e. more than half the bonus you got from your high constitution. This "combo" also cost your 2 of the 5 utility wild talents you've gotten by this level.

So to answer your question.... no, it's not overpowered.

[Kurnagar]

Great ! thanks to everyone for those answers.

First indeed, i made a mistake, it's gather power wich is used to reduce burn not infusion (at least for the example i was talking about)

Let's examine the "hitting discussion". Again, please check if everything is correct. My point is not to argue, i just want to be sure everything
is correct rulewise.

So, he's level 9, that's +6BaB, small +1, 15 dex +2, and starts the day by having 1 burn (i already house-ruled his ability to fly by imposing it
to inflict 1 burn which cannot be reduced) for another +1 (and +2 damage at the same time).
That's +10.
He has point blank shot and most of the time is hanging around close in the air, that make +11.
He also has precise shot so firing in melee is rarely a problem.
For "power evaluation", they're about to defend sandpoint against the stone giant assault. Most opponents are stone giants (AC22) and dire bears (AC18). About 50% chances to hit.
Bosses (Teraktinus and the dragon) have indeed 29AC and so are more difficult to hit, but it's fine because that's the point after all.

To push further the hit discussion, i'd like to know how you people handle the following:
Some times he's using the chain infusion allowing him to hit several different target within 6 square of each other with decreasing damage.
If there's another creature on the line between two of his target do you apply cover (+2 AC ? +4 AC) to the target or do you consider
that the creature should be hit too (thus counting as one of the additional target), something like a lightning bolt ?


About the flying now.
He must indeed do a DC15 fly check to remain stationary when using gather power.
For the fly skill has +2 for being small, +4 from good maneuvrability, +4 (1/2 Caster level) from fly itself, +2 from dex that's makes +12
before any ranks in the skill. So did i understand something wrong or will he never fail that check ?


To Psyren: you wrote something in don't understand:

with energy blast are much higher as it is a touch attack, but the damage conversely is much lower (5d6+2, 5d6+6 with full buffer - +3 from the buffer and +1 from the size bonus.)

I don't try to be annoying but here is how we understand things:
basic energy blast damage: 5d6+2.
if three burn, with overflow: +3 to hit, +6 to damage and usually +2 to CON and to DEX, that's an additionnal +1 to hit and "basic" damage 5d6+3.
For a total of 5d6+9. You wrote 5d6+6 ... is there something wrong in my calculations ?

Again later:

So with Gather Power + Empower you will do on average 7d6+8 with your energy blast

Sorry if this sounds stupid and to bother you, but how do you get this 7d6+8 ?
For me, if the 5d6+9 i got previously is correct, with empower, it goes to 7d6+13. Where's my mistake ?


Finally, everyone seems to find that more than 30 points of damage per round is not that much.
Ok but then aren't the encounters from the rise of the rune lord adventure path maybe weak ?
Because the other characters of the group are, in my point of view, as powerfull as the kineticist
and so they usually have no trouble with the encounters in the book if i don't boost them.
I'm not complaining, i always manage to keep things challenging and fun but as i must boost
nearly every encounter i'm wondering if:
a) my players have very strong characters ? (what i was inclined to think)
b) the encounters are a bit weak ?
c) maybe i'm not playing the monsters well enough

Thanks again for your answers, and don't take me wrong if i seem to be pointing at details
and small numbers, i just want to be sure what we do is totally correct.

[Gnaeus]

Well let’s imagine a level 9 greatsword fighter. Power Attack. 22 Str (easily achievable at level 9). +1 flaming weapon. Weapon training.
2 attacks per round. +15 and +10. 3d6+21 per hit. That’s 6d6+42 avg 63 per round if he hits twice. The kineticist hits more. But the fighter is a much better target for buffs. Throw an enlarge person and a haste and he will be over 100/round.

And that’s a fighter (weak and basic core class) with one Bonus feat (power attack), with a pretty weak weapon.

A wizard 9. With craft rods. (Empower) Fireball is doing 9d6 +50%. That’s 48 damage, to everyone in the room. Using his 3rd highest spell slots and a 4500 GP item he made himself with a bonus feat.

These are core classes using one feat they got for free, without archetypes, or anything remotely like cheese. The fighter has 9 more feats. The wizard has 5 and better spells.

He’s doing less damage than I would expect to see from a base class at low op. I don’t know what your other guys are doing, but they are clearly not built for anything like combat.

Our DM buffed every encounter in RotRL. Generally maxed everything’s hp, reworked most fights to use better feats. But my Sorcerer and the Barbarian were quite a bit higher op than base fighter and wizard with one feat, and our rogue wouldn’t have been impressed with a 30something damage round either. The druids TRex did about 3d6+22 at that level and she was hardly optimized.

[Kurald Galain]

For "power evaluation", they're about to defend sandpoint against the stone giant assault. Most opponents are stone giants (AC22) and dire bears (AC18). About 50% chances to hit.

You're asking if this character is overpowered compared to the rest of the party. That means you shouldn't examine his chance to hit and declare it to be sufficient; you should compare his chance to the rest of the party. Even without optimization, I'd expect the rest of the party to have a (much) higher chance to hit than 50%.

If there's another creature on the line between two of his target do you apply cover

Yes, the infusion spells this out. The Chain infusion is balanced by the fact that any missed attack (including from e.g. mirror image) stops the rest of the chain.

Finally, everyone seems to find that more than 30 points of damage per round is not that much.

At level 9? Certainly not. A common complaint about adventure paths at mid level (and up) is that, yes, the encounters are a bit weak. This is normal, and buffing those encounters is also normal.

[Kurnagar]

Thanks for those answers.

When i said "power evaluation" i was not clear enough, what i had in mind was evaluation against the encounters as written in the adventure path.
I have no doubt there are many ways to have much more powerfull characters.

What seemed to me is that it was "overpowered" compared to those encounters.
And from what people seems to say it's totaly normal to boost encounters.
Knowing that is reassuring for me.

I just hope, Psyren will check this topic again and correct my calculation.

Thanks again

[GrayDeath]

Just restating: almost all COMBAT encounters assume that one is running the old Fighter, trapdinfer Rogue, healbot CLeric, Blaster Caster Group.

A Kineticist is relatively good at dealing constantly good damage over a short range.

he is however, even with a lot of OP, never the BEST at doing so (or even close), so why not simply let your player enjoy the fact that his suboptimum character actually works well?

And keep adapting Encounters to a time when the whole GROUP trivializes them?

Just saying....:)

[Kurald Galain]

Just restating: almost all COMBAT encounters assume that one is running the old Fighter, trapdinfer Rogue, healbot CLeric, Blaster Caster Group.

Not particularly, no. Where did you get that idea?

A Kineticist is relatively good at dealing constantly good damage over a short range.

And not particularly that, either, as the math in this thread shows. Where did you get that idea?

[Kurnagar]

Just restating: almost all COMBAT encounters assume that one is running the old Fighter, trapdinfer Rogue, healbot CLeric, Blaster Caster Group.

A Kineticist is relatively good at dealing constantly good damage over a short range.

he is however, even with a lot of OP, never the BEST at doing so (or even close), so why not simply let your player enjoy the fact that his suboptimum character actually works well?

And keep adapting Encounters to a time when the whole GROUP trivializes them?

Just saying....:)

Yes that's exactly what I'm doing. I always add a few monsters here, a few levels there, and everyone is having fun and feels challenged.
That's all that is important in the end.
I have nothing against the kineticist per se. It is just that it's a class i don't know well and was wondering if we were doing everything correctly.

[Eldonauran]

And not particularly that, either, as the math in this thread shows. Where did you get that idea?

'Good' is a subjective term, especially when 'relatively' is added to it. To give a personal account of the kineticists performance, we have never had issues with the damage output of a kineticist at our table. I've never really seen eye-to-eye with the rest of the optimization crowd on this issue, even if I can agree on the math.

[Kurald Galain]

'Good' is a subjective term, especially when 'relatively' is added to it.

Not at all; this is a simple case of math. If a class is dealing less damage than a baseline unoptimized core-only fighter (as Gnaeus has just shown) then it's clearly not "relatively good"

[GrayDeath]

Not particularly, no. Where did you get that idea?

By far the majority of all Adventures of 3.5 and PF I have read/played in assume something along the "classic" Group makeup.
Less so in PF, and Adventure paths in particular demand certain types of Characters.

So yes, particularly, if not entirely.

And not particularly that, either, as the math in this thread shows. Where did you get that idea?

Very much so.

I wrote "relatively" good and consistant.
{Scrubbed} I`ll elaborate:
A Kineticist does not need a specific weapon to do his damage, he does not need an ending ressource to do his damage (just to boost it), and it is inherently ranged in the case mentioned.

That is more consistent and good in most situations than a non optimized melee character, or a optimized one met outside his comfort zone/on the wrong foot (say no charging, or miss chances, etc).
"Math" is totally useless if not made for specific comparable sitations, and compared in at least a way that allows for medium number of statistics.
Ideals are not useful.


Hence "relatively good and consistent".

Did I say anywhere he was actually Good, or did I say better than alternatives? No.

{Scrubbed}

[Eldonauran]

Not at all; this is a simple case of math. If a class is dealing less damage than a baseline unoptimized core-only fighter (as Gnaeus has just shown) then it's clearly not "relatively good"

As I said, I did not disagree with the math. The kineticist is more than just a damage dealer and does not need to compete with a fighter that gets most of his damage potential from a full attack action on the ground in the best case scenario metric. Different scenarios will provide different results that will skew your perspective either way, and more so with your own biases on the issue. The kineticist simply has more options than the fighter and could almost as easily pick up a sword, take power attack and deal slightly less damage than that fighter (due to having a few less BAB) if they focused on Strength as well. Their energy attacks make a good fall back, even with 14 DEX when their sword or bow wont swing it.

My disagreement has nothing to do with the numbers and a numbers argument cannot change it. No disrespect, of course.

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

[Particle_Man]

Flying archers tend to take less damage since the tanks are tanking for them. Maybe compare the character to other flying archers?

[KillianHawkeye]

I also agree that the Kineticist seems weaker mathematically than what I've experienced actually playing one.

The damage may not be as high as power attacking Fighter's full attack, but Kineticist is more mobile and able to deal her damage most every turn and has options for doing area attacks when needed. My character was certainly not lagging behind the Rogue or the Sorcerer in terms of damage contribution (with the exception of Sorc's short term burst damage potential, but Kini makes it up over the long term).

I know that's just my anecdote for the day, so ignore it if you wish.

[Gnaeus]

No, the fighter is also exerting control by standing and being swung at. The flying archer should be doing more damage than the unoptimized fighter, Not less. If this were a video game or 4e, you would call the kineticist DPR and the fighter Tank. The DPR shouldn’t be doing less damage than the tank. And again, those numbers assumed not only a very low op fighter, but a completely unbuffed one.

As for flying, that wizard who trivially outdamaged him could be flying too. Overland flight is available at 9, as well as fly, levitate, and about a dozen spells to change shape or create a mount. Heck. At level 9 the fighter could be reasonably expected to be flying. Permanent flight is under half his WBL.

And those were, again core 4 unoptimized classes. If you want to compare apples to apples, an alchemist 9 should be trivially putting out 10d6+10 damage per round, also with touch attacks, with extra splash damage, and 2 save or sucks. He could also be flying if he wanted and has quite a bit better utility than a kineticist. Flying blaster to flying blaster.

I also agree that the Kineticist seems weaker mathematically than what I've experienced actually playing one.

I know that's just my anecdote for the day, so ignore it if you wish.

And we should. It’s the same as “I was in a game once where the monk kicked ass”. I don’t know what kind of wacky dm you had, or what third party supplements you use to make Kenny less bad, or what the party consisted of, or any of a dozen features that could make one class better or worse in a specific situation. The math shows clearly that in DPR, its strength, kenny lags behind some of the worst classes in the game.

[Rynjin]

I also agree that the Kineticist seems weaker mathematically than what I've experienced actually playing one.

The damage may not be as high as power attacking Fighter's full attack, but Kineticist is more mobile and able to deal her damage most every turn and has options for doing area attacks when needed. My character was certainly not lagging behind the Rogue or the Sorcerer in terms of damage contribution (with the exception of Sorc's short term burst damage potential, but Kini makes it up over the long term).

I know that's just my anecdote for the day, so ignore it if you wish.

I think your issue is comparing your damage to the Rogue (a low combat potential class) and finding it sufficient; most people (including myself) compare the Kineticist to an archery focused Fighter or Ranger, which they compare quite unfavorably to. The Kineticist is built to be a primary combatant, as their kit is largely raw damage focused. Their actual utility (in or out of combat) is too limited to compare them to something like a Bard, which their base chassis (d8 HD, 3/4 BAB, "casting", etc.) would otherwise beg them to be compared to.

I've played a few Kineticists. They're not unplayable by any means, and can be fun...but they're certainly not overpowered, and are on the very weak end of classes since all they really bring to the table is, as someone else put it, "consistent damage dealt", though I would call their damage "decent" rather than "good" as they did. Nerfing a Kineticist as this GM did (making the flight cost extra Burn) is much akin to nerfing a Monk; an extremely silly notion for an already weak class.

[Nizaris]

One issue I see is that the kineticist cannot have the Chain infusion yet, their level has to be twice the level of the wild talent so the earliest they can have Chain is 10, though really 11 when they gain their next Infusion. They access their wild talents on a Sorcerer progression, not Wizard.

Let's compare DPS between a standard Ranger using no spells vs the Kineticist.
Assuming a boring elf level 9 ranger, +2 Composite Longbow (+2) and a +2 Dex Belt that's taken the Archery Combat style taking a full attack with Point Blank, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus, Clustered Shot, Deadly Shot, and Manyshot

9 BAB + 6 Dex + 1 Weapon Focus + 1 Point Blank Shot + 2 Enhancement -2 Rapid Shot -3 Deadly Shot: 3 attacks at +14/+14/+9 dealing 2d8+22/1d8+11/1d8+11
The first two shots have a 65% chance to hit the AC 22 enemies, with a rough 5% to crit; 40% and 2% on the last attack
Expected damage per shot comes out to 20.5/11.575/6.82 = 38.895 DPS with

Kineticist with Point Blank and Weapon Focus given you said they have 20 Con pre-burn and assuming every other stat is dumped for 20 Dex pre-overflow, then taking the 3 burn to fill Elemental Overflow buffing Dex and Con and gathering to empower
6 BAB + 6 Dex + 1 Weapon Focus + 1 Point Blank Shot + 3 Overflow: 1 attack at +17
With an Air Blast, 80% base accuracy dealing (5d6+5 blast +6 Con +6 Overflow)*1.5 +1 (PBS) = 43.47 DPS (can add one 2 burn infusion for free)
With an Electric Blast, 95% accuracy dealing (5d6 blast + 3 Con +6 Overflow)*1.5 +1 (PBS) = 40.648 DPS (can add one 2 burn infusion for free)

So yes, against AC 22 enemies the Kineticist will have better sustained DPS without using extra resources, but as enemy AC increases, it will impact the Kineticist's DPS faster as missing equates to 0 damage for the round while the Ranger would have multiple chances to hit. The Ranger is also easier to buff, the Kineticist can't benefit a Bard's Inspire Courage and can't have the die size increased from Gravity Bow, either would lead them to match or exceed the Kineticist's damage.

In the above example, the Kineticist would have more overall HP at 102 to the Ranger's 58 (Elf so Con 10), they are sitting on 27 points of non-lethal so their effective HP is only 75. The ranger has more skill utility with 18 extra skill points. The kineticist would have 4 total utility talents, 2 are needed to have flight so they only really has two utility talents to choose with a decent chance of them requiring burn to use. The ranger likely has an animal companion (which adds to their DPS and utility) and 3 Lvl 1 spells and 2 Lvl 2 spells per day.

I've played a Kineticist myself, I've never found myself outpacing the DPS of other heavy hitters in the party. The flight it a nice boon, but I never really stood that far apart from the rest of the party, it could have more to do with party comp than the class itself.

[Kurnagar]

One issue I see is that the kineticist cannot have the Chain infusion yet, their level has to be twice the level of the wild talent so the earliest they can have Chain is 10, though really 11 when they gain their next Infusion

Thanks a lot, that's the kind of comment i'm looking for.
We're clearly not as experienced (or just did not pay attention enough) as most people here (that's why i came here to ask) and i'm
glad some people can correct the mistakes.

I'll have to see with the player how to fix this.

[KillianHawkeye]

I don’t know what kind of wacky dm you had, or what third party supplements you use to make Kenny less bad, or what the party consisted of, or any of a dozen features that could make one class better or worse in a specific situation.

No 3rd party fixes, just base pyrokineticist from levels 1 to 6 or 7. Other party members were Rogue (might've multiclassed Ranger), fire Sorcerer, controller Wizard, Monk, Paladin. Also had a Barbarian for a little while, but the player could no longer make it. Adventure was Curse of the Crimson Throne, so we mainly fought some gang members, their pets, the town guards, and some undead.

And don't call my DM wacky.

[Rynjin]

No 3rd party fixes, just base pyrokineticist from levels 1 to 6 or 7.

This probably contributes to your impression as well; Kineticists are pretty solid at low levels, particularly levels 1-5, and offensively fire is probably the most destructive early in, since fire resistance isn't as common below level 10 and the other raw power contenders (like Earth) target regular AC.

[Psyren]

I just hope, Psyren will check this topic again and correct my calculation.

Between working late, cooking and looking after my pets, getting back here wasn't the highest priority, but sure!

Spoiler: Scenario Stuff

Show

Let's examine the "hitting discussion". Again, please check if everything is correct. My point is not to argue, i just want to be sure everything
is correct rulewise.

So, he's level 9, that's +6BaB, small +1, 15 dex +2, and starts the day by having 1 burn (i already house-ruled his ability to fly by imposing it
to inflict 1 burn which cannot be reduced) for another +1 (and +2 damage at the same time).
That's +10.
He has point blank shot and most of the time is hanging around close in the air, that make +11.
He also has precise shot so firing in melee is rarely a problem.
For "power evaluation", they're about to defend sandpoint against the stone giant assault. Most opponents are stone giants (AC22) and dire bears (AC18). About 50% chances to hit.
Bosses (Teraktinus and the dragon) have indeed 29AC and so are more difficult to hit, but it's fine because that's the point after all.

Correct - and do you see the problem that comes with having a 50% chance to waste your turn every round? This is almost like your character being permanently blind!

No other combat-oriented class has to suffer from accuracy this bad; that is the core mathematical problem with Kineticist. And that is just against the regular minions in your example - it becomes even worse (90% failure chance) when the bosses show up. So essentially you are forced into using the lower-damage touch-based energy blasts to meaningfully contribute.

To push further the hit discussion, i'd like to know how you people handle the following:
Some times he's using the chain infusion allowing him to hit several different target within 6 square of each other with decreasing damage.
If there's another creature on the line between two of his target do you apply cover (+2 AC ? +4 AC) to the target or do you consider
that the creature should be hit too (thus counting as one of the additional target), something like a lightning bolt ?

Yes, it specifically calculates cover between targets, which hurts the AoE potential considerably since a single miss breaks the whole chain.

Not that it had a lot of aoe potential to begin with, since they made the baffling decision of causing every successive target to lower the blast's damage. (Compare this to, say, Chain Lightning or Eldritch Chain, where the AoE stays static regardless of the number of targets.) As others have mentioned though, it's a 5th-level infusion so your gnome can't learn it yet.

About the flying now.
He must indeed do a DC15 fly check to remain stationary when using gather power.
For the fly skill has +2 for being small, +4 from good maneuvrability, +4 (1/2 Caster level) from fly itself, +2 from dex that's makes +12
before any ranks in the skill. So did i understand something wrong or will he never fail that check ?

Yes, it's an easy check as I mentioned. You didn't say what you were fighting until now though (e.g. something that could grapple, poison, dispel etc) so I thought it was important to mention. That dragon for instance could be a problem if you're hanging in midair. The giants tossing rocks at you certainly will, and your elemental defense won't do a thing to boulders.

To Psyren: you wrote something in don't understand:

I don't try to be annoying but here is how we understand things:
basic energy blast damage: 5d6+2.
if three burn, with overflow: +3 to hit, +6 to damage and usually +2 to CON and to DEX, that's an additionnal +1 to hit and "basic" damage 5d6+3.
For a total of 5d6+9. You wrote 5d6+6 ... is there something wrong in my calculations ?
...
Again later:
Sorry if this sounds stupid and to bother you, but how do you get this 7d6+8 ?
For me, if the 5d6+9 i got previously is correct, with empower, it goes to 7d6+13. Where's my mistake ?

No mistake, I simply forgot that the damage bonus from EO was double the attack roll bonus instead of equal to it. But 3 extra damage base (5 empowered) per blast is not really a big change to my overall conclusion though, 38 damage per round (with Gather, 27 if you move) is still not that impressive at level 9.

Finally, everyone seems to find that more than 30 points of damage per round is not that much.
Ok but then aren't the encounters from the rise of the rune lord adventure path maybe weak ?
Because the other characters of the group are, in my point of view, as powerfull as the kineticist
and so they usually have no trouble with the encounters in the book if i don't boost them.
I'm not complaining, i always manage to keep things challenging and fun but as i must boost
nearly every encounter i'm wondering if:
a) my players have very strong characters ? (what i was inclined to think)
b) the encounters are a bit weak ?
c) maybe i'm not playing the monsters well enough

Thanks again for your answers, and don't take me wrong if i seem to be pointing at details
and small numbers, i just want to be sure what we do is totally correct.

I don't know what your other players are using (or all the encounters in that AP) so I can't answer that. I'd honestly be surprised though if they're all doing ~38 damage per round to one target at a time without being able to move.

I think your issue is comparing your damage to the Rogue (a low combat potential class) and finding it sufficient; most people (including myself) compare the Kineticist to an archery focused Fighter or Ranger, which they compare quite unfavorably to. The Kineticist is built to be a primary combatant, as their kit is largely raw damage focused. Their actual utility (in or out of combat) is too limited to compare them to something like a Bard, which their base chassis (d8 HD, 3/4 BAB, "casting", etc.) would otherwise beg them to be compared to.

Ranger and Hunter are exactly what I compare them to. I'm still working on my fix but I think they should fill a similar niche in the party - both in terms of damage potential and in terms of theme, as all the elemental stuff fits well with an outdoorsy class. Utility-wise, they should be less skilled than a Ranger, but the wild talents should get them to a pseudo-castery place similar to the Warlock that makes up for that.

[Bucky]

Your friend's build is minimally broken. He can occasionally trivialize and solo an encounter by hovering out of reach and plinking it to death while the rest of the party has a picnic offscreen.

It's not broadly broken because it requires a friendly environment, and also requires the enemies to be unprepared for fliers, and ALSO removes his backup in case something goes wrong. The end result is less likely to break a given encounter than a generic cleric.

[Particle_Man]

No 3rd party fixes, just base pyrokineticist from levels 1 to 6 or 7. Other party members were Rogue (might've multiclassed Ranger), fire Sorcerer, controller Wizard, Monk, Paladin. Also had a Barbarian for a little while, but the player could no longer make it. Adventure was Curse of the Crimson Throne, so we mainly fought some gang members, their pets, the town guards, and some undead.

And don't call my DM wacky.

Well except for the controller wizard (there are literally wizard guides that call this sort of wizard God) that might not be that unbalanced. Monk, Paladin and Rogue are usually seen as low tier, and a sorcerer focused on fire damage is focusing on something that d20 games devalue (many monsters are fire resistant or fire immune, for starters). Assuming the controller wizard’s player is subtle enough to allow the others spotlight time (using controller magic to give the others an opportunity to strut their stuff more efficiently vs. opponents) that should not be too bad. I would say you air kineticist fits in. They have their “thing” but it is not an “oh no they solved all the problems and everyone else might as well be a spectator to the one character’s awesomeness” party fun wrecker, imho.

[DrMartin]

Just something for your consideration:

Adventure Paths are largely balanced on the easy side of things: older Paths had pregenerated characters at the end of each booklet matching the ones appearing in the book's illustrations.
These character are built with a 15 point buy, while in my experience most home games use at least 20.
Moreover they are not what anyone, and especially not anyone on this particular forum, would call optimized.

There are exceptions of course and notoriously difficult fights, but it's no surprise if your party of somewhat competently built characters is breezing through most encounters in the AP.

Another thing to consider, is that RotRL came out quite early in the gameline, and for sure they didn't "balance" it against for instance a fighter picking options from the Weapon Mastery Handbook and such - and certainly not for anyone to have permanent flight at level 6. APs are by their very nature linear and having a character with a permanent ability they are not supposed to have yet is akin to a sequence break in a metroidvania style computer game.

Also for comparisons, a Kineticist can't really compete as a DPR class. It's a utility class, with some mediocre reliable damage as a backup. It's more like a rogue-ish class that trades the ability to spec for combat for elemental-themed magic powers. And just as the rogue, it's rather depressing on paper, but can be quite fun a the table - hell one can have fun playing a shifter too, doesn't change the fact that it's trash.

Any character at level 9 with an even secondary damage focus will dish out more damage and with more accuracy than the kineticist, even a chained rogue, by virtue of using their main stat for to-hit and magic weapons alone.

Hell, the most unoptimized-yet-functional sword and board fighter with 20 str, a +2 longsword, +2 from advanced weapon training, power attack and vital strike (a suboptimal choice, but that's the point, and a fighter can spare one bonus feat) can move and hit at +15 (9+5+2+2-3) for 24 (2d8+5+2+2+6) damage, or 15.6 DPR against AC22. The kineticist in your party does, with full burn, 26.5 base (5d6+9) with a +14 to hit, so that comes around 15.9 DPR - woop de doo, he deals the same damage as a crappy fighter that is not full attacking.

[Gnaeus]

Also for comparisons, a Kineticist can't really compete as a DPR class. It's a utility class, with some mediocre reliable damage as a backup. It's more like a rogue-ish class that trades the ability to spec for combat for elemental-themed magic powers. And just as the rogue, it's rather depressing on paper, but can be quite fun a the table - hell one can have fun playing a shifter too, doesn't change the fact that it's trash.

Not really no. Or if it is a utility class, it performs as poorly in that role as it does in DPR.

The Kinny in question has one of the better forms of flight (for a Kenny). It’s a decent power. Unfortunately, it takes half of the utility powers available to him at 9th level. Perma flight is not actually that rare among 9th level characters. Less than 1/2 WBL. Free to wizard, Druid, ranger and a number of non-core classes and races. And really, individual perma flight (as opposed to something like phantom chariot which gives party permanent mobility or something like D Door or teleport which are also available at that level) is really more of a defense than utility. Any encounter which could be trivialized by permanent flight can probably be trivialized with a fly spell. My bloodmarked witch, for contrast, had permanent flight, and a tiny perma flight scout with blindsense and +20something stealth along with better knowledges to see what he was scouting, at level 1.

No. A utility character provides utility to the party. Can it deal with traps? No. Can it scout? A bit. It has stealth and perception. Probably not as good as a familiar for example. But that’s probably it’s best niche. Party face? No. Healing? No. (Or very badly). Utility casting (like providing water breathing, energy protection, or other utility spells). No.

I guess it has more utility than the fighter. Less than the ranger or rogue though. Far far less than a superior utility character like alchemist or bard.

[DrMartin]

Yeah, it's not a good utility class - I should have said that more clearly :) . BUT! I think that the class is less horrible if one thinks of the kineticist as a utility/jolly than as DPR, because we all know that the damage is bad.

In a given build you can pick one or two gimmicky things and be relatively competent at them, and in some cases it's even kind of unique to the class. So in a party with most of the bases covered you can spec a Kineticist to cover what of the bases are not covered, and still have some energy blast damage next to that.

[Kurald Galain]

No 3rd party fixes, just base pyrokineticist from levels 1 to 6 or 7. Other party members were Rogue (might've multiclassed Ranger), fire Sorcerer, controller Wizard, Monk, Paladin. Also had a Barbarian for a little while, but the player could no longer make it.

Right. Well, there's three reasons why kinny performs so poorly, and they tend not to apply at low level - at least no tyet.

The first is magic weapons. These are a large damage boost for martial characters, and don't really exist for the kinny. Of course, a low-level character won't have one yet; but around level 6 you'll probably start finding (or buying or crafting) things like a Keen or Flaming sword.

The second is party buffs. Things like bard song, Prayer, and Haste are massive damage boosts for martial characters, and basically don't do anything for kinny. Doesn't make such a big difference at low level, and some parties just don't buff much.

The third is resistance. At mid-level, a ton of monsters have elemental resistance or immunity (this is particularly common for fire). Kinny lacks a way to deal with that; whereas a sorc or wiz can easily pick up a non-blasting spell. This is campaign-dependent, of course.

(which means tip for the OP: throw in some custom magic items that boost kinny damage, and houserule that standard party buffs actually help them; e.g. giving them an extra attack with Haste shouldn't be a big deal)