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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Polearm Wielding Gish

    Quote Originally Posted by TrueAlphaGamer View Post
    If you're just comparing these two, then definitely War Caster + Booming Blade. Though this combo is anti-synergistic with wielding a polearm in two hands, since your AOO will be at Reach, and you can't cast BB at Reach without another feat.
    Unless you use a Spear or Quarterstaff.

    Reach Polearms are best if you're planning to also utilize something like Sentinel to stop them at 10' and prevent them from closing, or Great Weapon Master to boost your melee damage. Spear/Quarterstaff is the better route for specifically the Polearm Master + War Caster + Booming Blade combo. Giving up an average of 1 point of damage per hit from the slightly smaller damage die is worth saving the feat you'd spend on Spell Sniper. You could instead put that ASI towards maxing attack stat (STR or CHA), getting that 1 point of damage back, as well as an extra +1 to attack (and other potential benefits).
    Last edited by RogueJK; 2020-10-21 at 11:27 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Polearm Wielding Gish

    Is the single handed polearm (spear/quarterstaff) actually a good mix of both worlds, or is it a case of trying to be a jack of all trades/master of none, where you just don't do anything really well.

    I just feel like if I'm not going for the reach mechanic, going with a longsword and the warcaster/booming blade route is probably just better than spear + PAM.

    I haven't checked the math though to see how far off one is from the other. I probably should do that.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Polearm Wielding Gish

    Quote Originally Posted by CMCC View Post
    I just feel like if I'm not going for the reach mechanic, going with a longsword and the warcaster/booming blade route is probably just better than spear + PAM.
    Depends on whether you have better things to be doing with your Bonus Actions consistently, and whether you have a way to reliably add additional damage to each Attack+Bonus Attack (+possibly Extra Attack). 2x-3x attacks with several additional damage bonuses can outdamage 1x Booming Blade attack, especially if you're not frequently triggering the rider. Especially in Tier 1 and 2, where the majority of D&D play occurs.

    Even with multiple PAM attacks and not utilizing BB for your primary attack routine, you can still effectively utilize Warcaster/BB for extra damage on the single PAM OA when enemies approach you. In my experience with PAM characters, this specific OA triggers quite frequently.

    Whereas Longsword can only use Warcaster/BB on the OA when an enemy tries to leave, which doesn't trigger as often.
    Last edited by RogueJK; 2020-10-21 at 02:02 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Polearm Wielding Gish

    Quote Originally Posted by CMCC View Post
    Is the single handed polearm (spear/quarterstaff) actually a good mix of both worlds, or is it a case of trying to be a jack of all trades/master of none, where you just don't do anything really well.

    I just feel like if I'm not going for the reach mechanic, going with a longsword and the warcaster/booming blade route is probably just better than spear + PAM.

    I haven't checked the math though to see how far off one is from the other. I probably should do that.
    It depends if you really want to use Booming Blade.

    Mechanically, Booming Blade's advantages are highly level/class dependent. A blade Warlock, with PAM (and optionally GWM) who specs into Thirsting Blade/Lifedrinker will likely beat out one who specs Booming Blade in terms of consistent/total damage until maybe level 17. For other gish builds, like those using Sorcerer, Wizard, Cleric, or other kinds of Warlocks, BB is a much better option, since there isn't the opportunity cost of Extra Attacks or PAM. IMO, if you're planning on spending most of your play time in levels 1 to 10, spear + PAM is the clear option - use the extra/bonus action attack and ignore using BB/GFB unless the situation really calls for it.

    I like single handed polearms because I like their synergy with Dueling, and the tighter spread of damage that provides, plus the boost in AC a shield can bring. Reach can be situational, as it's likely that the enemy will get to you sooner or later. I think 1-handed gives you very slightly less damage (if you take Dueling) and range, but the bonus of a shield makes up for it in terms of stickiness in battle.

    Watch out when you imply that the single handed polearm is weak. I think there have been quite a few arguments on this forum in the past complaining about its synergy with Dueling.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Polearm Wielding Gish

    I'd recommend an Oath Breaker Sorcadin for this, assuming your DM allows it. Vuman with polearm master at level, 7 levels of oath breaker, then shadow or divine soul sorcerer for the rest. In theory would like a hex dip, which would then maybe encourage half elf instead of human for elven accuracy. But three levels of warlock are needed to use hex warrior on a proper polearm, and while that could make for a fun and functional build, that's going to cut into your overall spell progression more than this thread seems to be looking for.

    Decent number of attacks thanks to extra attack and polearm master, oath breaker aura for a static damage boost to all of those attacks, divine smite when needed or on a lucky crit, eventually haste from sorcerer levels. Or spirit guardians, or darkness for advantage if going shadow sorcerer. Spell slots of a 16th level caster and 7th level spells known, so reasonably casty while also being solidly punchy. The casting is pretty back-loaded though, admittedly. You won't be casting actual 3rd level spells until level 12, which is... not ideal.

    But still, a solid overal build with well above half casting that makes prominent use of a halberd or glaive and wouldn't just be the same but better with a a shield or greatsword. Which is admittedly a big issue here. You can get stronger, castier gishes, but they're mostly going to be running on scag cantrips, which don't play nice with polearm master, and without polearm master there's not a lot of mechanical reason to go with a halberd or glaive in the first place.


    As for conquest... it can be fun to poke at locked down enemies from 10 feet away, but if they're that securely locked down then you might as well be flailing at them with a whip, which lets you keep a shield up. Conquest is a tankier build in general, one that relies heavily on concentration spells, so it values that extra AC a lot.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Polearm Wielding Gish

    Quote Originally Posted by Malisteen View Post
    I'd recommend an Oath Breaker Sorcadin for this, assuming your DM allows it. Vuman with polearm master at level, 7 levels of oath breaker, then shadow or divine soul sorcerer for the rest.

    Decent number of attacks thanks to extra attack and polearm master, oath breaker aura for a static damage boost to all of those attacks, divine smite when needed or on a lucky crit, eventually haste from sorcerer levels. Or spirit guardians, or darkness for advantage if going shadow sorcerer.
    I recently played a Variant Human Polearm Master Vengeance Paladin 6/Divine Soul Sorcerer 6. It was very effective from Level 1-12. I initially planned to go straight Paladin, but decided to duck out at 6 in favor of Sorcerer for more spells/smites instead, and I don't regret that at all, since I gained greater versatility, ranged ability, defense spells, and smite damage.

    A Vengeance Paladin or Sorcadin with Polearm Master is especially good when fighting single large enemies. Vow of Emnity and Hunter's Mark (usually used separately, but sometimes together), really lets you make the most of your 3x melee attacks per round against that target, and you can let loose with large Smites thanks to your doubled crit chance from Vow of Emnity's Advantage. You're effectively getting 6x chances for a Critical Smite each round against that enemy, and if you're a Sorcadin you have even higher level spell slots with which to maximize this Critical Smite's damage.

    Plus you're frequently getting a 4th attack (and additional chance to Smite) in many rounds, thanks to PAM's OA when an enemy closes with you.
    Last edited by RogueJK; 2020-10-21 at 04:53 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: Polearm Wielding Gish

    Quote Originally Posted by CMCC View Post
    The more I think about it, the more the question for me comes down to:

    War caster + Booming Blade

    Or

    PAM/Sentinel

    Which is superior?

    And is there a way to combine them, or is there just too much conflict and lack of synergy that makes that much ASI investment not worth it.
    To my mind, the reason Polearms combo well with Hexblades are because polearms offer more attacks via PAM.

    Additional attacks are worth more on a Hexblade than they are on most other classes. This is because of Hexblade's Curse, Lifedrinker, and Hex/Elemental Weapon. So if you're doing something like Booming Blade instead of attacking, you're not taking advantage of all the extra damage you could be doing with more attacks.

    First, I would say Elemental Weapon is a better pick here than Hex. It only works on non-magical weapons, but that includes your pact weapon because it is not considered magical except with regard to damage resistances. If you get a really good magical polearm, it will probably raise the value of Hex. However, the DMG doesn't have any magical polearms in it and your DM might not plan to create one for you. See the thread on that.

    So Elemental Weapon lasts an hour, meaning you cast it as you're starting the dungeon crawl and it will be up the whole time. It scales up, so you'll eventually have a permanent +2 attack and +2d4 damage. It doesn't take a bonus action to apply, it just works. And if you're using PAM, that's 3 attacks that are getting that extra 2d4.

    Lifedrinker allows you to add your Charisma modifier to damage a second time. So you double dip on your static bonuses compared to most other classes. Compare to the Dueling fighting style adding a flat +2. Lifedrinker only works on your pact weapon, so it doesn't play nice with dual wielding (what does?), but if a polearm is your pact weapon then the haft attack is still coming from your pact weapon.

    Then add Hexblade's Curse on there as well, adding your proficiency modifier in damage to each hit.

    So at level 12, if you land all 3 attacks but don't crit, you're doing 2d10+6d4+1d4+15+15+12. Or if you aren't using Hexblade's Curse on that target, drop that last +12.

    You do that and you back off, since you're at reach and you safely can. And if them come at you, you hit them again for another 1d10+2d4+5+5.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: Polearm Wielding Gish

    Quote Originally Posted by RogueJK View Post
    Potentially workable, especially in Tier 1/2. (And I do kinda like the image of a Tier 3 Hexblade/Bard Gish taking Steel Wind Strike as a Magical Secret and then teleporting around the battlefield potentially inflicting 30d10 Force damage among 5 targets.)

    Though I suspect going Swords Bard, even with Extra Attack, could start to run out of steam in their overall melee damage output in higher levels. The Blade Flourishes would only be adding an average of ~3/4/5/6 points of damage to one attack per turn, with Dueling Fighting Style potentially adding another 6 points if all 3 attacks hit. In order to be able to compete with things like Smiting Paladins, Twinned/Quickened Booming Blade Sorcadins, Eldritch Smiting Hexblades, Multi-Attacking Sharpshooters/Great Weapon Masters, etc., I still think you'd still need another way to add even more additional damage to each attack. Therefore you'd need to rely on spells like Hex at lower levels and Holy Weapon (through Magical Secrets) at higher levels, but this would tie up your Concentration, and there are a lot of other really useful Bard spells already competing for your Concentration.

    Going Whispers Bard would enable BB/GFB + Psychic Blades for a nice little damage dump on their single attack per round (provided that lone attack hits), especially considering Psychic Blades scales up. This would also leave your Concentration free. But that negates one of the benefits of the PAM feat, since you'd be using the Cast A Spell action not the Attack action, so you wouldn't make much use of the bonus attack at higher levels. And I still suspect it would lag behind some other Gish options at higher levels.

    You'd also need to spend a feat on Warcaster to be able to BB/GFB on the PAM OA triggered by an enemy closing, to stay relevant with that hit too. But since you're using a Spear, you don't have to spend a feat on Spell Sniper, so that's kind of a wash. And as a melee caster, you'd want the boost to Concentration anyway.


    The more I consider it, I think I might want to try a spear-wielding Hexblade Whispers Bard Gish. Seems like it could be fun and flavorful, even if not 100% optimized. Something like a Variant Human starting with PAM. Rely on PAM's 2x attacks + sometimes Hex through Tier 1 and 2, giving me two attempts per turn to inflict Psychic Blades occasionally, then likely switching to just Booming Blade + Psychic Blades at Level 11. Take Steel Wind Strike and/or some non-Bard defensive spell(s) (like Haste, Mirror Image, or Armor of Agathys) as Magical Secrets at Bard 10. +2 CHA at Bard 4. +2 CHA or Warcaster at Bard 8. +2 CHA or Warcaster at Bard 12.
    I like whispers too.

    My personal preference is swords. The +AC is very nice. Synergizes well with Hexblade curse and shield spell.

    Nothing wrong with whispers though. Late game it’s damage will scale a bit higher. I personally would forgo PAM on the whispers setup. Go straight for warcaster.
    Last edited by Frogreaver; 2020-10-21 at 03:44 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Polearm Wielding Gish

    Quote Originally Posted by RogueJK View Post
    I recently played a Variant Human Polearm Master Vengeance Paladin 6/Divine Soul Sorcerer X. It was very effective from Level 1-12.
    Did you stop playing at level 12 or did it stop being as effective at that point. I'm guessing the former.
    Last edited by CMCC; 2020-10-21 at 04:51 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: Polearm Wielding Gish

    Quote Originally Posted by CMCC View Post
    Did you stop playing at level 12 or did it stop being as effective at that point. I'm guessing the former.
    I guess I worded that poorly. Campaign was paused/abandoned at Level 12 due to COVID. Had it continued, I would have kept going with Sorcerer.
    Last edited by RogueJK; 2020-10-21 at 04:53 PM.

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    Default Re: Polearm Wielding Gish

    Quote Originally Posted by Evaar View Post
    To my mind, the reason Polearms combo well with Hexblades are because polearms offer more attacks via PAM.
    This - it is about getting lifedrinker (and possibly GWM) on a third attack.

    If you have 7 levels in EK you're playing a different game, and may or may not plan on GWM.

    For one, War Magic+Booming Blade works better with shadow blade (and an Ek7/wiz13 has mondo slots for this). You can also swap to Green Flame Blade in multi target situations with no real single target damage loss.

    Both, though, are situational and require some forethought.

    Lifedrinker + PAM + GWM really need a way to gain advantage to come ahead with ACs above 15-16. The warlock can do this, but monoclassed they spend a whole round casting Moil (unless 17+, but lets forget that for now).

    War Magic + BB/GFB is always available. If using Shadow Blade, GWM is off the table but the per-round damage increase via advantage is strong if in dim light - very strong.

    In both cases, a level 20 EK with a simple level 3 Shadow Blade will outdamage them; that's just the nature of the beast, though. Even before 17; a pure EK with 3 attacks and advantage will tend to out damage a War Magic + BB multiclass with an upcast Shadow Blade.

    Extra Attack really does a lot of lifting there. And, the nice thing about a pure EK is, if they want, they can build for strength and do pretty comparable damage without shadow blade. If they ever find a flametongue weapon they will blow the doors off other options with extra attacks.

    A pure EK can of course use PAM also; so the boost from lifedrinker really isn't a clear lead unless the warlock can have advantage all the time, but that costs a round. Meanwhile, the fighter gets a free action once per short rest...


    Go with PAM+Lifedrinker or War Magic+BB/GFB for flavor or because you want the other things those builds can offer. They aren't hands down the best way to do damage; after level 11 an EK with Shadow Blade tends to best them (and the EK can use WM+BB while they wait for Shadow Blade III to show up at level 13 - where it blows the doors off of WM+BB even using shadow blade, and even with advantage.) It's been a bit since I compared Lifedrinker/PAM to Extra Attack (2) + PAM w/ shadow blade, but the warlock wasn't a clear winner, and they were a clear loser in any round they couldn't use the PAM bonus attack - and, there are ways for the EK to get Hunter's Mark or Hex.

    Now, the EK is lacking in a lot of the other sorts of things people want in a gishy character, and building something else to get those things ain't wrong.
    Last edited by cutlery; 2020-10-21 at 05:22 PM.

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    Default Re: Polearm Wielding Gish

    A good Arcane cleric build is a great gish

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    Default Re: Polearm Wielding Gish

    Imo best Polearm Gish is Hexblade. Either Variant Human if playing to level 12 or Half-Elf if playing 12+ levels.

    PAM, GWM, 20 CHA, War Caster or Elven Accuracy, GWM, PAM, War Caster, 20 CHA.

    It's really easy to use - you use Devil's Sight + Darkness Combo till you get Shadow of Moil and you attack with advantage while being attacked with disadvantage and being immune to all spells that requires seeing a target.



    Another one is Vengeance Paladin PAM GWM Variant Human 20 STR riding on Pegasus or Conquest Paladin using Polearm 10 reach to combo with Fear Aura. Though fear immunities become very very often in late levels sadly.

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    Default Re: Polearm Wielding Gish

    Quote Originally Posted by Benny89 View Post
    Imo best Polearm Gish is Hexblade. Either Variant Human if playing to level 12 or Half-Elf if playing 12+ levels.

    PAM, GWM, 20 CHA, War Caster or Elven Accuracy, GWM, PAM, War Caster, 20 CHA.

    It's really easy to use - you use Devil's Sight + Darkness Combo till you get Shadow of Moil and you attack with advantage while being attacked with disadvantage and being immune to all spells that requires seeing a target.



    Another one is Vengeance Paladin PAM GWM Variant Human 20 STR riding on Pegasus or Conquest Paladin using Polearm 10 reach to combo with Fear Aura. Though fear immunities become very very often in late levels sadly.
    Any dips or just straight through?

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    Default Re: Polearm Wielding Gish

    Quote Originally Posted by CMCC View Post
    Any dips or just straight through?
    For Hexblade is just mono-class. The Hexblade chasis is perfect for GWM builds due to easy advantage generation. Plus they always have very good range attack (up to 4x 1d10 + CHA force damage 120 feet range) that is almost never resisted so they are never in position (unlike Paladins) where they don't have answer for range or flying enemies.

    Vengeance Paladin also mono-class. You could in theory combine both in Padlock, like 6 Vengeance/14 Hexblade etc. but it takes long to go fully online (CHA to 2-handed weapons require 3rd level of Hexblade) and Paladin stupid 13 STR requirement to multiclass (cause you can't be Dex Paladin...) also makes it not really optimal for GWM build.

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    Default Re: Polearm Wielding Gish

    Quote Originally Posted by CMCC View Post
    The more I think about it, the more the question for me comes down to:

    War caster + Booming Blade

    Or

    PAM/Sentinel

    Which is superior?

    And is there a way to combine them, or is there just too much conflict and lack of synergy that makes that much ASI investment not worth it.
    Warcaster+BB is a happy accident where two useful things happen to sometimes deal an extra chip of damage.

    PAM+Sent is a mele thing that is feat heavy and no caster has time for that.

    To answer the OP. Glaive+PAM+GWF is the mele hexblades bread and butter.

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    Default Re: Polearm Wielding Gish

    Quote Originally Posted by CMCC View Post
    I keep running into bonus action issues where that extra attack PAM clause seems to conflict with things like hex or so many of the Paladin spells or quicken if you go sorcadin route.

    I also feel booming blade gets taken off the books which seems like such a waste for a Gish build.
    It sort of depends how you play. I am running a pure hexblade that has nearly zero issues with bonus action economy. If the fight looks tough, I will almost always use my turn to cast darkness on myself and put my hexblades curse on the big tough guy whilst running in to a spot that seems strategically useful. If the fight looks easy, I'll either dice my way through it using no spells (saving slots in case something comes up) or I'll cast a hex with the hopes of keeping it up for the next fight also (using PAM to avoid getting hit via reach abuse).

    Booming blade is fantastic for a warcaster build but the interaction with reach weapons is a little unsatisfying because of the 5ft range.

    Hexblade is fantastic with PAM and, whilst definitely worse overall than a paladin (paladins are just crazy good), they are probably the better class for all out burst damage.

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Default Re: Polearm Wielding Gish

    By far the best user of proper polearms is the echo knight fighter subclass with a PAM/Sentinel build abusing your shadow clone for high class positioning shenanigans. Of course, that's not a gish at all, though with all of their supernatural abilities they can kind of feel like one.

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    Default Re: Polearm Wielding Gish

    Quote Originally Posted by Malisteen View Post
    By far the best user of proper polearms is the echo knight fighter subclass with a PAM/Sentinel build abusing your shadow clone for high class positioning shenanigans. Of course, that's not a gish at all, though with all of their supernatural abilities they can kind of feel like one.
    Yeah I’ve toyed with the idea of the echo/ barb multiclass with ritual caster. Maybe an echo knight/ wizard multiclass could work and be awesome. Idk - I haven’t seen a good build for it yet.

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    Default Re: Polearm Wielding Gish

    Off the top of my head, if you just wanted some additional arcane utility, defense, and flavor for your Echo Knight, you could dip War Wizard 2 for STR-based medium/heavy armor or Bladesinger 2 for DEX-based light armor. It would only need a 14ish INT to work. Has all 1st level Rituals, a few Shield/Absorb Elements spells per day, and some utility cantrips, plus added defense.

    But the War Wizard's Arcane Deflection could compete for your Reaction with OAs, Shield/AA, and Shadow Martyr.

    And Bladesong could compete with the Bonus Actions required by Echo Knight abilities.


    Perhaps something like a Variant Human with PAM starting Fighter 1, then War Wizard 2, then Echo Knight X, picking up +2 STR (Fighter 4), Sentinel (F6), Great Weapon Master (F8), +2 STR (F12), and +2 CON (F14).
    Last edited by RogueJK; 2020-10-23 at 01:42 PM.

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