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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Griffon

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    Default New campaign - old school dungon crashing, lvl 8, 3 man party

    Hi all, very likely I'll start a new campaign in a few weeks. Starting level is 8, and it's old school dungeoneering. There are only 3 party members. Other stuff of importance:
    - no to multiclassing, yes to feats
    - probably no items
    - probably rolling for stats

    Of course, without knowing what stats I'll have, and what the other party members are, it is difficult to come up with a concrete build, but what I am looking for is stuff that, under these circumstances, is strong for this starting level and the small party size.

    For example, I'm not very keen on a class like lore bard: they cover a lot of bases, but are relative squishy in the AC/HP department, something that can't be compensated with a hexblade or fighter dip, and with only 3 people I can't expect to be able to stay out of melee all the time. Same with archery builds: BM fighter with SS / CBE is a great damage dealer at this level, but its relative low AC gives me pause.

    I'm tending towards builds like Artificer Battlesmith, shield/handcrossbow build (damage ranged and melee, some support like a little healing and providing a magic weapon for a party member, lots of defense), Hexblade blaster (focus on EB for damage, shield & medium armor, utility and optional 'face' role with invocations), or shepard druid (party support & summoning). The first two also bring an extra critter to the table (robo-pet / specter). Other options are monk (probably shadow), since at level 8 I think they have enough ki to not feel starved, and they have a solid AC 18 (provided I rolled average results), or PAM/sentinel barbarian (to have a solid hp buffer and some battlefield control to keep enemies away from the squishies)

    But maybe I'm missing great options that work very well on this level. So if you feel like it: gimme ideas!

  2. - Top - End - #2
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: New campaign - old school dungon crashing, lvl 8, 3 man party

    You can consider an EK either elven or halfelven to get Elven Accuracy, combined with Shadowblade along with 2 more ASIs which can get you max dex and any feat that you may want, maybe warcaster.

    At level 8 an EK can cast cantrip and have bonus action attack, follow up with action surge for another two attacks so you can nova with 4 attacks once per short rest.

    You will have good defense, good range option, stealth, really good sustain offense and a strong nova option when things need to die now.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: New campaign - old school dungon crashing, lvl 8, 3 man party

    Quote Originally Posted by Waazraath View Post
    Hi all, very likely I'll start a new campaign in a few weeks. Starting level is 8, and it's old school dungeoneering. There are only 3 party members. Other stuff of importance:
    - no to multiclassing, yes to feats
    - probably no items
    - probably rolling for stats

    Of course, without knowing what stats I'll have, and what the other party members are, it is difficult to come up with a concrete build, but what I am looking for is stuff that, under these circumstances, is strong for this starting level and the small party size.

    For example, I'm not very keen on a class like lore bard: they cover a lot of bases, but are relative squishy in the AC/HP department, something that can't be compensated with a hexblade or fighter dip, and with only 3 people I can't expect to be able to stay out of melee all the time. Same with archery builds: BM fighter with SS / CBE is a great damage dealer at this level, but its relative low AC gives me pause.

    I'm tending towards builds like Artificer Battlesmith, shield/handcrossbow build (damage ranged and melee, some support like a little healing and providing a magic weapon for a party member, lots of defense), Hexblade blaster (focus on EB for damage, shield & medium armor, utility and optional 'face' role with invocations), or shepard druid (party support & summoning). The first two also bring an extra critter to the table (robo-pet / specter). Other options are monk (probably shadow), since at level 8 I think they have enough ki to not feel starved, and they have a solid AC 18 (provided I rolled average results), or PAM/sentinel barbarian (to have a solid hp buffer and some battlefield control to keep enemies away from the squishies)

    But maybe I'm missing great options that work very well on this level. So if you feel like it: gimme ideas!
    Given the limited number of players and without knowing the party ahead of time I'd recommend:

    Celestial Warlock - Access to short rest healing can be game changing in a dungeon. In addition you can spam EB/Righeous Fire and use control spells like hypnotic pattern.

    Cleric (Any) - Spirit Guardians is one of the best Dungeon spells. It lasts for 10 minutes making it possible to maintain from room to room. It's going to fill a good part of many rooms. It's ally friendly. It slows enemies making it harder for them to get to your allies.

    Shepherd Druid - Flooding rooms with creatures is great (though DM can reign in the power of this spell somewhat, unless you know he will always go with your creature choice)

    Sorcerer - Twin Polymorph. Room size can make this an issue. But when it isn't there's not anything stronger for a 3 man party at your level.

    Wizards (Any)- Best out of combat addition with many control options.

    I'd avoid characters that are too melee focused. To me that means no GWM, no Barbarian, no Paladin. I like BM+SS+CE Fighters, but they are rather 1 trick ponies for a dungeon with a 3 man party - especially at level 8 where you start to have enough level 3+ spells with casters.

  4. - Top - End - #4
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    Griffon

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    Default Re: New campaign - old school dungon crashing, lvl 8, 3 man party

    Thnx for the replies so far, keep 'em coming!

    What I forgot to mention: at the moment I play a cleric, that (when not casting) utulizes Booming Blade a lot. So I'd like to avoid both cleric and scag-cantrips (at least BB, GFB is a maybe), and before that I played a paladin, so that one is out too.

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    Default Re: New campaign - old school dungon crashing, lvl 8, 3 man party

    Battle smith seems like a solid choice. Max Int, maybe Dungeon Delver? Skills, defense, utility, decent damage.

    Other ideas:
    Barbarian totem warrior (bear totem). High Con, maybe Shield Master? Can smash and doesn't die easily.

    Moon druid. Can scout with ablative wild shape "armor". Spellcasting. You don't really need high stats, so room for more feats. Prodigy (Perception expertise) + Observant + Enhance Ability spell = no surprises.

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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: New campaign - old school dungon crashing, lvl 8, 3 man party

    In a 3 person party, someone should play a cleric or druid for the earliest access to healing and status mitigation. If that's not you, then just make sure someone else takes it. Bards, divine soul sorcerers and celestial warlocks can help fill this role too if they need to.

    For you, I recommend a wizard. They are much less squishy than most bards. Shield, absorb elements, misty step and mirror image are better than medium armor.

    Evocation wizard is great in a small party. With a smaller party, you should face less total HP of opponents in a day so blasting becomes more useful. Plus with only 2 other party members, you can exclude them both from even a 1st level thunderwave.

    Abjuration would be another great choice for the extra HP. If you can use Eberron races go Warding Dwarf and mix in Armor of Agathys. You become a great melee build which would be good in a small party.

    But the main reason to take a wizard isn't for the blasting, it's for the utility. Rope trick and Leomund's tiny hut let you always have a place for a short or long rest. Alarm at early levels at least gives you some warning. Find familiar is the best scout in the game for 10gp a pop. Detect magic can make sure you don't miss any important treasure, and counterspell is essential.
    Last edited by Bobthewizard; 2020-10-21 at 07:14 AM.

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    Default Re: New campaign - old school dungon crashing, lvl 8, 3 man party

    I'd recommend (as a party): (This is a kind of party optimization approach)
    1 Fighter or Paladin; 1 wizard; 1 cleric
    Note: at level 8, Fighter or Paladin is a matter of taste, but the fighter gets an extra ASI or Feat. I'd recommend Alert.

    Make sure that one of the characters has the Criminal background so that they have thieves tools as a proficiency. Make sure the Cleric has the guidance cantrip.

    Whether you take BM, Champion, Cavalier or EK is a matter of taste.

    Note: Celestial warlock is a long rest healer, but, the 1d6 (your warlock will have 9 of them if you choose the warlock) healing light is a bonus action.

    Why I'd suggest Life cleric: the channel divinity recharges on a long rest; it will be 40 HP to spread around the party and get them back up to 1/2 HP if you get into one of those "we nearly TPK'd there" fights.

    Two available per short rest, though if you think you'll run into undead keep that in mind.
    Wizard: control spells and debuff spells like slow. and (of course) fireball.

    But, since you intend to play artificer:
    Play artillerist. The canon's Temp HP is slightly over the top better than any other Temp HP option. It is a bonus action each round to create a buffer of damage before your characters take damage. Take a good hard look at that.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2020-10-21 at 08:10 AM.
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    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
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    Default Re: New campaign - old school dungon crashing, lvl 8, 3 man party

    My thing here is to cover multiple roles and be useful in many different places.

    Arcane Trickster Rogue with Ritual Caster (Wizard)
    You have a boatload of out of combat usefulness with Rogue skills, Ritual Caster Wizard, and AT spell slots. Plus you can Booming Blade/sneak attack to do some serious damage

    Moon Druid
    Druids are already swiss army knives. They have something for almost every situation, then you add on top of that the ability to turn into some amazing forms it's great. You can scout, you can tank, you can summon, you can heal.

    Conquest Paladin
    High Cha, so you can cover the social skills. You have the spell slots to either smite or cast other spells, you can heal, and there is no one better at protecting the squishies than a Conquest Paladin. Since you are single classing, it may be worth considering going S+B Dex so you are better at stealth as well.
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: New campaign - old school dungon crashing, lvl 8, 3 man party

    I'm going to plug one of my favourite things to play because I think it would suit a crawl pretty well:

    Artificer Battle Smith with the Healer Feat: Using the Healer feat as your primary source of healing will leave you with an abundance of spell slots for control/utility and in case your SD dies. For a weapon use a spear with the Returning Weapon infusion to give you some ranged options as well as melee, if you want to/your party is lacking a tank then slap Tough on top for the hp to go with your ac. If you off load a feat into V. Human then taking a single level dip into Fighter for Dueling and Second Wind is fantastic.
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    Default Re: New campaign - old school dungon crashing, lvl 8, 3 man party

    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    I'm going to plug one of my favourite things to play because I think it would suit a crawl pretty well:

    Artificer Battle Smith with the Healer Feat: Using the Healer feat as your primary source of healing will leave you with an abundance of spell slots for control/utility and in case your SD dies. For a weapon use a spear with the Returning Weapon infusion to give you some ranged options as well as melee, if you want to/your party is lacking a tank then slap Tough on top for the hp to go with your ac. If you off load a feat into V. Human then taking a single level dip into Fighter for Dueling and Second Wind is fantastic.
    No dip, per the OP, but I think your approach is pretty solid.
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    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
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    Default Re: New campaign - old school dungon crashing, lvl 8, 3 man party

    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    I'm going to plug one of my favourite things to play because I think it would suit a crawl pretty well:

    Artificer Battle Smith with the Healer Feat: Using the Healer feat as your primary source of healing will leave you with an abundance of spell slots for control/utility and in case your SD dies. For a weapon use a spear with the Returning Weapon infusion to give you some ranged options as well as melee, if you want to/your party is lacking a tank then slap Tough on top for the hp to go with your ac. If you off load a feat into V. Human then taking a single level dip into Fighter for Dueling and Second Wind is fantastic.
    (Bolding mine)

    Not that it invalidates this build at all, but the OP said no Multiclassing.


    *Edit: Shadowmonked as well.
    Last edited by nickl_2000; 2020-10-21 at 08:12 AM.
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: New campaign - old school dungon crashing, lvl 8, 3 man party

    Probably better suggestions above me than the one I'm going to suggest, but personally, I'd give serious thought to a thief rogue with the healer feat. You can heal 1d6+12 to each party member per short rest (that's an average of 46.5 hit points per short rest assuming nobody is at or near max). Rogues can do melee or ranged pretty effectively. They also have thieves' tools and lots of skills (expertise in 4 by then) to lean on. They are pretty SAD, so you can pump some Con to not be so squishy (and a well-timed uncanny dodge helps there too).

    Just a thought. Artificer, druid and wizard also look like great fun. Let us know when we find out what the others are playing and what your rolled scores are.
    Emongnome

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: New campaign - old school dungon crashing, lvl 8, 3 man party

    Quote Originally Posted by nickl_2000 View Post
    My thing here is to cover multiple roles and be useful in many different places.

    Arcane Trickster Rogue with Ritual Caster (Wizard)
    You have a boatload of out of combat usefulness with Rogue skills, Ritual Caster Wizard, and AT spell slots. Plus you can Booming Blade/sneak attack to do some serious damage

    Moon Druid
    Druids are already swiss army knives. They have something for almost every situation, then you add on top of that the ability to turn into some amazing forms it's great. You can scout, you can tank, you can summon, you can heal.

    Conquest Paladin
    High Cha, so you can cover the social skills. You have the spell slots to either smite or cast other spells, you can heal, and there is no one better at protecting the squishies than a Conquest Paladin. Since you are single classing, it may be worth considering going S+B Dex so you are better at stealth as well.
    Wow this is great 👍 does cover nearly every pillar and with some redundancies which is important for small groups. I would recommend the dexadin route too so the whole group can stealth especially with Druid providing pass without trace.

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    Default Re: New campaign - old school dungon crashing, lvl 8, 3 man party

    Quote Originally Posted by Gignere View Post
    Wow this is great 👍 does cover nearly every pillar and with some redundancies which is important for small groups. I would recommend the dexadin route too so the whole group can stealth especially with Druid providing pass without trace.
    And not only that, but the dexadin solves the issue of range. They can easily pull a bow and kite effectively when it is needed.
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    Default Re: New campaign - old school dungon crashing, lvl 8, 3 man party

    Quote Originally Posted by nickl_2000 View Post
    And not only that, but the dexadin solves the issue of range. They can easily pull a bow and kite effectively when it is needed.
    Easily? No. It takes an action to doff your shield.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: New campaign - old school dungon crashing, lvl 8, 3 man party

    Another way to make up for the small party is to go full minionmancy, the classes that does that best would be shepherds Druid, any wizard, lore bard, and cleric if animate dead is not a concern. It’s not just us 3, it’s 3 plus an army. Haha.

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    Griffon

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    Default Re: New campaign - old school dungon crashing, lvl 8, 3 man party

    Update!

    Rolled stats: 8, 12, 12, 15, 15, 17. Hurray!
    Other players: most likely monk (no subclass known yet) and fighter (no subclass but PAM/sentinel build). Idea is (but not certain yet) that by the time we get to level 9 another player joins, probably arcane trickster rogue.

    Not much closer to a decision myself though. On the one hand, a versatile 'broad' caster could offer a lot of support here (there's no face, no healing, area damage, and little utility it seems, though that also depends a bit on subclasses / feats / races - at least till the rogue joins). On the other hand, might be fun to go without a (full) caster... less obvious solutions to problems.

    More ideas based on stats/party?

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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: New campaign - old school dungon crashing, lvl 8, 3 man party

    Quote Originally Posted by Waazraath View Post
    Update!

    Rolled stats: 8, 12, 12, 15, 15, 17. Hurray!
    Other players: most likely monk (no subclass known yet) and fighter (no subclass but PAM/sentinel build). Idea is (but not certain yet) that by the time we get to level 9 another player joins, probably arcane trickster rogue.

    Not much closer to a decision myself though. On the one hand, a versatile 'broad' caster could offer a lot of support here (there's no face, no healing, area damage, and little utility it seems, though that also depends a bit on subclasses / feats / races - at least till the rogue joins). On the other hand, might be fun to go without a (full) caster... less obvious solutions to problems.

    More ideas based on stats/party?
    This really calls for a celestial warlock to me. I'd say V human, take Fey Touched (Cha bonus), stat line of 8, 16, 16, 12, 12, 18. Not sure what spell to take with the feat. Warlock is a "short rest" class which will mix quite well with monk and fighter. I'd focus on spamming EB mostly, but you can use invocations and feats to give your character more options, in and out of combat pretty easily.
    Emongnome

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    Default Re: New campaign - old school dungon crashing, lvl 8, 3 man party

    Quote Originally Posted by Iku Rex View Post
    Moon druid. Can scout with ablative wild shape "armor". Spellcasting. You don't really need high stats, so room for more feats. Prodigy (Perception expertise) + Observant + Enhance Ability spell = no surprises.
    The main downside here is that Level 8 is right in the depths of the valley where Moon Druid's Wild Shape wanes in power. It's not until Level 10 that Moon Druid gets another significant boost from their Elemental Wild Shape.

    And in light of the other party members being revealed, I think a Shepherd Druid would likely be a better option for this party anyway, since you already have a PAM Fighter tank and a Monk melee striker, so the Combat Wild Shape's additional frontlining isn't as useful. Shepherd Druid would be a versatile caster/buffer/healer, and a very strong summoner to boost your party's small numbers.

    Land Druid would be another good choice for a non-Cleric all-around utility/buff/attack/heal caster, with access to potentially a few additional non-Druid damage, buff, and/or exploration spells (Mountain, Underdark, and Grassland are solid options here) in exchange for being a slightly less powerful summoner compared to Shepherd.

    And either way, if you really want to crank up the utility casting several notches, have your Druid take Ritual Caster Wizard too.


    Based on the rolled stats, I'd do something like a Variant Human Land or Shepherd Druid 8 with Ritual Caster Wizard, +2 WIS, and Resilient CON.
    STR 8
    DEX 15+1 (racial)
    CON 15+1 (Resilient)
    INT 12
    WIS 17+3 (racial and ASI)
    CHA 12
    Definitely take Perception proficiency. Stealth and Acrobatics would be handy too.
    Last edited by RogueJK; 2020-10-25 at 04:18 PM.

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    Default Re: New campaign - old school dungon crashing, lvl 8, 3 man party

    Quote Originally Posted by Waazraath View Post
    For example, I'm not very keen on a class like lore bard: they cover a lot of bases, but are relative squishy in the AC/HP department, something that can't be compensated with a hexblade or fighter dip, and with only 3 people I can't expect to be able to stay out of melee all the time.
    Feats are allowed, so you can go from Moderately Squishy (AC 14ish) to Pretty Tanky (AC 19ish + Cutting Words) just by taking the Moderately Armored feat. This is what bards and warlocks used to do IME before Hexblade came out.

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    Default Re: New campaign - old school dungon crashing, lvl 8, 3 man party

    Another good option for that party would be a Divine Soul Sorcerer (though that may be too close to a Cleric for you). You'd still have buffing/healing/status mitigation bases covered, while also being able to toss out some AoE blasting spells too. And you also be the party Face, since you'd likely be the only party member with a high CHA.

    Celestial Warlock could handle the healing/status mitigation and Face roles, but wouldn't have as many options for party buffs, or spell slots with which to cast them.

    If you're worried about them being overly Squishy with low HP, you could choose Warforged for AC and CON boost for the Divine Soul Sorcerer, or Variant Human with Moderately Armored for the Celestial Warlock.

    That would look something like an Warforged Divine Soul Sorcerer with +2 CHA and Resilient CON.
    STR 8
    DEX 15 +1 (racial)
    CON 15+3 (racial and Resilient)
    INT 12
    WIS 12
    CHA 17+2 (ASI)

    This would have a 17 AC with Mage Armor, and would have access to Shield and other defensive spells.

    Or a Variant Human Celestial Warlock with Moderately Armored, +2 CHA and Resilient CON.
    STR 8
    DEX 15 +1 (racial)
    CON 15+1 (Resilient)
    INT 12
    WIS 12
    CHA 17+3 (racial and ASI)

    This would have 18 AC with a breastplate and shield, but 8 fewer HP from the slightly lower CON.


    Skills could be Perception, Stealth, Acrobatics, Persuasion, and Deception or Insight
    Last edited by RogueJK; 2020-10-25 at 04:51 PM.

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    Griffon

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    Default Re: New campaign - old school dungon crashing, lvl 8, 3 man party

    Thnx all! And yeah, correct on moderately armored, forgot all about its existence; and starting at lvl 8 you could nicely pick it and still max casting stat with vhuman.

    Having said that, thought about it and looked at all the suggestions here, I think I'll go with the shepard druid. Warforged for 17 con (18 with res-con), 18 wis, an extra AC and some resistances & sentry's rest (makes guard duties at night a bit easier); and to roleplay a character mildly inspired by Marvin the Paranoid Android. Build by an very evil wizard as a servant, seen A Lot Of Bad Stuff Happening That Humanoids Can Do Unto Each Other In His Time, until the whole wizard tower was brought down and he was stuck under the rubble for centuries of boredom. Saved by a fey, trained as a druid, learned to love animals and nature and all that. Dislikes most things with two legs, but loves puppies.

    Pick up the healer feat (20 wis isn't needed per se I think) and use bear aura at the start of the day (and then a short rest) to provide temp hp and healing/damage mitigation for everybody without needing to spend precious slots on 'em.

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