New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Results 1 to 15 of 15
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2020

    biggrin The plan to un-make the D&D cosmos: Tharizdun's Perfect World

    I have been deep diving into the Elder Elemental Eye in all its forms for a year now, longer if I count my research into the Demon Lords when I first got a hold of the 5e module Out Of The Abyss. With recent revelations from A.J. Pickett's youtube channel with deep D&D cosmos lore as well as my own personal musings on cyclical narratives for universes.. I have come up with a ridiculous and impossible plan.

    I now consider the universe of the D&D cosmology (everything that is not the material planes) to exist in an unbalanced state. I used to believe in a Great Wheel where law, good, evil, and chaos were balanced. I now see that due to the Obyriths' invasion into our world from theirs there has been an imbalance. Chaotic Evil taint has seeped into the cracks of D&D's greatest foes: The Aberrations of the Far Realm, the innately evil Undead, the chaotic lords of Elemental Evil, as well as everything Abyssal in terms of the Obyriths and their their Flesh-Shapers and their demons.
    All of these evils are all part of the Elder Elemental Eye in some way. Though it is not Tharizdun's fault. It is the fault of none but the Obyriths.

    Tharizdun thought that the world was in order before these aliens invaded our world. They came to Tharizdun and used the Shard of Ultimate Evil to begin a domino effect of corruption which spread to all those evils I listed earlier. Tharizdun becomes a threat to the cosmos and is bound, and the Abbyss becomes what we know it as today. But.. what if Tharizdun got his way? His original way. What if the Obyriths, and all that they have corrupted, were purified?

    Here's my plan to do the impossible. I would like to hear your thoughts on my steps here.

    Step One: Get rid of the Obyriths.
    This is possibly the hardest step of this whole system, but if we did this we could start a reverse cascade of events that may save the cosmos from Elder Evil. Say, perhaps, that an epic adventuring party were able to acquire some piece of the dying universe that the Obyriths escaped from and use it to un-make these beings one by one. Said adventurers would also have to find and kill every last Syribrex flesh-shaper, of which there are a limited number in reality. Note that vanquishing such definitively unkillable forces such as Pale Night and Obox-Ob is beyond absurd. Still.. if we could do that..

    Step Two: Release Tharizdun.
    This is also a mad thing to do but imagine if we could prove to the mad god that the very alien invaders which drove him insane were gone, and that we needed his help to continue striving for that order he so violently wishes returned to the cosmos. If he were to join this coalition against Elder Evil, then we could see the Astral Dreadnaughts, Beholderkin, and various other forces from the Far Realms devoted to the Elder Elemental Eye as allies to the order of the cosmos instead of threats. Speaking of Elementals...

    Step Three: Restore the Lords of Elemental Evil.
    Tharizdun took the Shard of Infinite Evil given to him by the Obyriths and, instead of destroying reality by loosing it into the Astral plane, hurled it into the Elemental Planes to create the Elemental Chaos. Appearing before the Lords of the Elements, Tharizdun persuaded them to see him as their creator and obtained their undying loyalty. With Tharizdun on our side, he could possibly persuade them back away from Chaotic Evil. These primordial lords could then dissolve their forms into one Elemental Chaos made manifest and use this power to jettison the Shard of Ultimate Evil back into Tharizdun's possession. Elemental Evil as it once existed is no longer a threat to the order of the cosmos.

    Step Four: Restore the Slaad.
    This one is my most recent addition to the theory. I couldn't figure out what to do with the forces of Chaotic Good in my narrative here- but I think I fixed that. What I want to do is purify the Shard of Infinite Evil from the Elemental Chaos and turn it into a Shard of Infinite Chaos, by way of the souls of the Chaotic Good planes. Then.. we take this Shard of Infinite Chaos into Limbo and exchange it for the Spawning Stone. The Spawning Stone, a creation of the dead being Primus, is a stone of ultimate Law in the cosmos. It forces the raw chaosstuff of Limbo into shaped forms, with small pieces of the stone in their heads allowing them to be bound to service. If we were to chuck this Shard of Infinite Chaos into Limbo and attract all Slaad energy into it, we could possibly initiate some plan to extract the Spawning Stone in its entirety from Limbo. This Shard of Infinite Chaos could obliterate the forms of the Slaad and return them to their Chaosstuff formless lives. One by one, every Slaad would have their piece of the Spawning Stone expelled and collected into a one true original Spawning Stone- Primus' stone of Ultimate Law. The Slaad and their chaos gods would be free to be the fundamental forces of reality they always were meant to be.

    Step Five: Restore Primus.
    Primus, supreme being of Mechanus and divine lord of Law, is a very important figure in the cosmology. Primus (depending on origin story) was the being that judged the court case of Asmodeus long ago. Primus ruled in Asmodeus' favor that there must be a necessary evil to keep the forces of Chaos at Bay. What I plan to do here with reviving Primus is to have the supreme judge revoke his ruling on Asmodeus. If we could have this necessary evil no longer be so necessary then Primus could revoke the enchantment of Law on Asmodeus' Ruby Rod and shatter the hierarchy of the nine hells, leading to a collapse of central structure in Hell. What would immediately follow would be a massive invasion of Angels into Hell. Preferably, all of the Archdevils would obliterate themselves alongside all of the Solars and Planetars of Mt. Celestia. Doing this would sunder the infernal rule of Baator as well as neutering the forces of Law and Good so that the angels could not impose an imbalanced dictatorial domination of the cosmos. But, why would Primus do this?

    Step Six: Destroy the Demon Lords, especially Orcus.
    Without the Flesh-Shapers' ability to adapt the Demon race to better face the rest of reality, the Demons would be crippled in theory massive military presence. With the vanishing of the Obyrith Lords there would be dozens of abyssal layers without leader, causing a massive power vacuum as Demons fight one another to establish new rulers. This may be the only time in the cosmos where a coalition of universal forces could delve into the Abyss and, with Tharizdun (in many stories the creator of the Abyss itself) blessing the forces of Order- we could annihilate enough Demons to turn the tide of the Blood War. Thus, the Devils' armies would flood behind us into the Abyss proper and begin slaughtering the hordes of Demons in ways that cannot be soon replenished. With the Blood War over and the Demons no longer a threat to cosmic order, Primus would be able to rule against Asmodeus and initiate the fall of Baator.
    *With Orcus gone, who has an evil link to all undead who draw power from the Negative Energy Plane, we may have freed all of the undead in the universe from the taint of the Obyrith's creations. Undead will still battle the forces of Life- but perhaps Necromancers' Zombies and Skeletons would no longer be considered innately Evil creations. Undead and the Negative Energy plane are now free from the Obyrith's corruption and are now a force aligned with our cosmic order.
    *Another point of note. Spoilers for 5e Forgotten Realms D&D campaigns.
    Spoiler: [Don't click if you play 5e Realms modules
    Show
    In the 5e module Out Of The Abyss Gromph Baenre and Lolth manage to use the powers of Toril's Faerzress to conjure Eight Demon Lords into the prime material plane. Doing so doesn't help defeat them, but it could be used to remove the greatest powerhouses of the Abyss (after the loss of the Obyriths) from the fighting. Later they could be sent back to the Abyss and be destroyed, though it would be as terribly difficult as everything in this post is.


    And that's it! Kill the Obyriths, make peace with Tharizdun and his forces, free the Elementals from their corrupt binds, kill Orcus and free the Negative Energy plane from his corruption, unmake the Abyss, suicide-cleanse the Shard of Infinite Evil and swap it with the Spawning Stone to free the Slaad and resurrect Primus, disown Asmodeus from cosmic Law, get rid of the Solars and Planetars by having them delve into hell and cancel out the Archdevils, and bam. No more threats to cosmic order. All things balanced between Mechanus, Hades, Limbo, and Elysium. We'd also have to let Tharizdun sever all access to the Astral for Mortals (which at this point isn't that bad honestly) and we'd have a world at peace. Even Tharizdun would not be wanting for more as any Gods left alive would be able to welcome Tharizdun into the fold as having been.. misunderstood.
    Tharizdun's perfect universe, where he is the savior of all. Strange parallels and even stranger bedfellows,
    Thooooooooooooooooughts? If the impossible were true, would this be reasonable by your minds? Is there something I missed? An enemy to cosmic order that I have not considered? Am I a fool for imagining the defeat of such terrible beings as Pale Night and Obox-Ob? Am I more a fool for thinking we could negotiate with the Mad God? Let me know!
    Last edited by PattThe; 2020-10-21 at 03:54 AM.
    @Patt

    Spoiler: Bleep bloop!
    Show
    "People are ideas." :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, RIP Pluto: :IRC lives:

    https://thisisstorytelling-wordpress-com

    T_P_T

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Millstone85's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Paris, France
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The plan to un-make the D&D cosmos: Tharizdun's Perfect World

    First, let's be clear on the D&D cosmos that you are trying to unmake. I recognize lore from at least two separate versions, which I present here with some simplification:

    Spoiler: World Axis Cosmology (as first introduced in 4e)
    Show
    Astral Sea, with drifting astral dominions
    Feywild Mortal World Shadowfell
    Elemental Chaos, with drifting elemental realms

    Spoiler: Great Wheel Cosmology (as reintroduced in 5e)
    Show
    Astral Plane
    Celestia Elysium Arborea
    Mechanus Outlands Limbo
    Baator Hades Abyss
    Ethereal Plane
    Air Ice Water
    Ash Feywild | Material | Shadowfell Ooze
    Fire Magma Earth

    Nothing wrong with blending them, but be sure that's your intent.

    At first, it seems easy. For instance, I personally imagine the Outer Planes (Celestia, Elysium, etc.) as big alignment-based clusters of astral dominions, with some isolated dominions still drifting free in the Astral.

    But the one major difference between the two cosmologies is the place of the Abyss. In the World Axis it is an elemental realm, while in the Great Wheel it is an outer plane.

    Quote Originally Posted by PattThe View Post
    I now see that due to the Obyriths' invasion into our world from theirs there has been an imbalance.
    They came to Tharizdun and used the Shard of Ultimate Evil to begin a domino effect of corruption which spread to all those evils I listed earlier.
    Tharizdun took the Shard of Infinite Evil given to him by the Obyriths and, instead of destroying reality by loosing it into the Astral plane, hurled it into the Elemental Planes to create the Elemental Chaos.
    Tharizdun didn't throw the shard into the Elemental Planes to create the Elemental Chaos. Tharizdun threw the shard into the Elemental Chaos to create the Abyss.

    And that, obviously, is part of the history of the World Axis, where the Abyss is an elemental realm. Does that mean the Great Wheel is an alternate timeline where Tharizdun did as the obyriths wanted and threw the shard into the Astral? Or was the dead universe the obyriths came from none other than a future Abyss-consumed version of the Great Wheel? I am not knowledgeable enough to answer that.

    Edit: And just now I remember, from previous threads, that ancient fiends called baernaloths are sometimes credited with the creation of obyriths, along with that of baatorians, when they decided to remove the influence that Law and Chaos had on their Evil. They were later all replaced by contemporary devils, yugoloths and demons. No mention of this in 5e, though.

    The Spawning Stone, a creation of the dead being Primus, is a stone of ultimate Law in the cosmos.
    Is Primus dead?

    In the World Axis, yes. He was a primordial who tried to create the Elemental Planes by bringing order in the Elemental Chaos. He was almost successful, when a Far Realm entity (Mak Thuum Ngatha the Nine-Tongued Worm) arrived to mess it all up. Then Mekhane battled Yaldabaoth Whoops, wrong franchise. Primus defeated the Worm, but sacrificed his own life in the process. Scattered parts of Primus' body became the first modrons, who left the Elemental Chaos for an astral dominion or a different reality altogether.

    In the Great Wheel, Primus is alive. Well, he may have been killed by Orcus at some point, but then he was replaced like any other modron. One of the secundi became the new Primus, while one of the tertians transformed into a new secundus, and so on and so forth all the way down to a monodrone transforming into a duodrone, and a new monodrone being built from scratch.

    Primus, supreme being of Mechanus and divine lord of Law, is a very important figure in the cosmology. Primus (depending on origin story) was the being that judged the court case of Asmodeus long ago.
    Primus could revoke the enchantment of Law on Asmodeus' Ruby Rod and shatter the hierarchy of the nine hells
    In Great Wheel lore, or at least the 5e version of it, it seems that Primus created the Ruby Rod.

    Contrast with 4e World Axis lore, where Asmodeus made the rod himself... by journeying to the heart of the Abyss and stealing a piece of the Shard of Pure Evil. Yup, there it is again. Asmodeus then used the Ruby Rod to kill the benevolent god he was an angel of, and take his throne, in a what-if-Lucifer-won kind of way.
    Last edited by Millstone85; 2020-10-21 at 12:26 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2020

    confused Re: The plan to un-make the D&D cosmos: Tharizdun's Perfect World

    Quote Originally Posted by Millstone85 View Post
    Tharizdun didn't throw the shard into the Elemental Planes to create the Elemental Chaos. Tharizdun threw the shard into the Elemental Chaos to create the Abyss.
    Thank you. Though, Asmodeus tossing the Abyss in the elemental chaos in Realmslore always seemed like an absolute GROANER of a 4e change iirc. I think (and I love the great wheel) the great wheel cosmology probably never even existed. I think the great wheel only portrays itself as such when the Planescape players and inhabitants were believing in it so fiercely. If the Abyss never existed in the ancient cosmos, then there's no way there was ever any balance in the ways of the outer planes. (Unless it were balanced between 4 pure heavens, as I ended up having in my thought experiment here.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Millstone85 View Post
    And just now I remember, from previous threads, that ancient fiends called baernaloths are sometimes credited with the creation of obyriths, along with that of baatorians, when they decided to remove the influence that Law and Chaos had on their Evil. They were later all replaced by contemporary devils, yugoloths and demons. No mention of this in 5e, though.
    THESE MF'ERS are on my research list, I haven't gotten back to studying them yet. Definitely something for me to finally get into.

    Quote Originally Posted by Millstone85 View Post
    Is Primus dead?
    In 2e planescape yes, killed by Orcus on his way to try and become a god. No idea if he officially returned with any great means lately. Also, Orcus and Kiransalee and Tenebrous' entire plot arc seemed more like a publicity stunt (one of the better ones in terms of trying to right a wrong in escaping the satanic panic) than a shakeup in the forces of reality but the writers must have killed Primus for a reason. As for the rest of your story, well it's just nice to hear about more Primordials that aren't Obyriths. I'm honestly glad the world is more complicated than a One Great Evil. Once I heard that Beholders and Astral Dreadnaughts and Tharizdun and Ghaunadaur and the Elemental Lords were all connected it seemed as though the entirety of cosmic evil were all one big team. Though this does bring into question if these primordials such as the Nine-Toungued Worm are enemies to cosmic balance or just manifestations of imbalances in the natural universe for having too much order. Taking out Primus from the ancient cosmos and creating a chaos-bringing race of lawful beings seems more like a chemical soup balancing it's own components out via reactions than a dark evil perverting the natural order. I really wanted to divide all innate natural conflict within the cosmos from alien conflict that would have never arisen were it not, for lack of a better term, for the universe's body being breached by an infected splinter.

    Secondly, if there were Secondusi who took on the role of Primus, would the title alone be enough to disown Asmodeus or go through with Shard/Stone swapping shenanigans? If we needed to restore a Secondus to the true power of Primus then the greatest artifact Primus ever created (fully restored with every slaad's piece of the Spawning Stone) would definitely be (arbitrarily for story reasons and narrative parallel) enough to create a more full-powered Primus-state in that lead modron for enough time to do what we need Primus to do here.


    Quote Originally Posted by Millstone85 View Post
    Contrast with 4e World Axis lore, where Asmodeus made the rod himself... by journeying to the heart of the Abyss and stealing a piece of the Shard of Pure Evil. Yup, there it is again. Asmodeus then used the Ruby Rod to kill the benevolent god he was an angel of, and take his throne, in a what-if-Lucifer-won kind of way.
    ......can we get a 4e fan to come in and moderate this? Because that.. that just seems lazy. I don't want to bash an edition I have not played but if a 4e fan can agree that this is stupid we can consider (for this thought process) 4e changes to be, if not non-canon, then at least misinterpreted by mortal minds and that the specifics weren't quite what they were.
    Though, actually if the Abyss and the Elemental Chaos were neighbors it would be a little helpful. In the World Axis we could use the Lords of the Elements to help us in the fight against abyssal forces. However, I don't think it'd be possible to steal a Shard of Ultimate Evil from an infinite depth. The only way I see us getting that shard out of the universe's wound is to have the beings made manifest from it's own power (the lords of elemental chaos likely existed before the casting of the shard into the elemental chaos, but as with the Slaad I bet they were more happy in their unawakened states). It's funny. The World-Axis causes about as many problems as it solves. My preference would be to focus on a cosmic organization that most closely represents the world juuuust before 2e Planescape's Great Wheel. The one thing I agree with 4e on is that the abyss is clearly (though I wish it weren't) not just some outer plane like all the others.

    Now after all that I want to put forth one additional question.. do we think Tharizdun could un-make the abyss in any sense? Or at least to make it not infinite? The whole relationship between the worlds he devoured in his imprisonment but also the layers of the abyss representing worlds that fell to him.. and the elemental chaos connection..
    This Shard of Ultimate Evil is like a stripped screw. How the heck would we remove it if the Elemental Lords don't have access to it.. I gotta say Tharizdun would be our only hope. That or we get more Primordials to our cause. Thank you for the engaging response!!
    @Patt

    Spoiler: Bleep bloop!
    Show
    "People are ideas." :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, RIP Pluto: :IRC lives:

    https://thisisstorytelling-wordpress-com

    T_P_T

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Orc in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2016

    Default Re: The plan to un-make the D&D cosmos: Tharizdun's Perfect World

    Quote Originally Posted by PattThe View Post
    Step Four: Restore the Slaad.
    This one is my most recent addition to the theory. I couldn't figure out what to do with the forces of Chaotic Good in my narrative here- but I think I fixed that. What I want to do is purify the Shard of Infinite Evil from the Elemental Chaos and turn it into a Shard of Infinite Chaos, by way of the souls of the Chaotic Good planes. Then.. we take this Shard of Infinite Chaos into Limbo and exchange it for the Spawning Stone. The Spawning Stone, a creation of the dead being Primus, is a stone of ultimate Law in the cosmos. It forces the raw chaosstuff of Limbo into shaped forms, with small pieces of the stone in their heads allowing them to be bound to service. If we were to chuck this Shard of Infinite Chaos into Limbo and attract all Slaad energy into it, we could possibly initiate some plan to extract the Spawning Stone in its entirety from Limbo. This Shard of Infinite Chaos could obliterate the forms of the Slaad and return them to their Chaosstuff formless lives. One by one, every Slaad would have their piece of the Spawning Stone expelled and collected into a one true original Spawning Stone- Primus' stone of Ultimate Law. The Slaad and their chaos gods would be free to be the fundamental forces of reality they always were meant to be.
    I don't think the shard can be cleansed.
    It appears to be a concentrated piece of the reality the Obyriths came from. It acts as an anchor that allows the Obyriths to exist in this reality, and also seems to infect this reality with their old one.
    In fact there is no guarantee that this shard is the first and only one of it's kind. Many such shards may have acted a lifeboats, allowing the most powerful Obyriths to survive untold cycles of realities, nourishing them until they can find a new one, and then helping them harvest enough power to survive the end of the next cycle.

    If so, cleansing the Shard would be akin to dissolving a drop of oil in a glass of water. It's essence would have to go somewhere, so you would just end up with a cup of water completely tainted by oil rather than copntained in a drop/shard. In my cosmology Tharizdun realized this, and that the only way to stop this Obyrith cycle would be to contain the shard as best as possible and destroy reality before they could gather enough power to survive it. Obsessing over this was at least part of what drove him mad. Being tainted by the Shard and the act of setting his plan in motion must also have played their parts.

    I leave unanswered if he is ultimately correct about this being the only way, but I thought it could be relevant to your point 4.
    -
    What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder, stronger, in a later edition.
    -

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2020

    Default Re: The plan to un-make the D&D cosmos: Tharizdun's Perfect World

    Quote Originally Posted by Misereor View Post
    I don't think the shard can be cleansed.
    It appears to be a concentrated piece of the reality the Obyriths came from. It acts as an anchor that allows the Obyriths to exist in this reality, and also seems to infect this reality with their old one.
    In fact there is no guarantee that this shard is the first and only one of it's kind. Many such shards may have acted a lifeboats, allowing the most powerful Obyriths to survive untold cycles of realities, nourishing them until they can find a new one, and then helping them harvest enough power to survive the end of the next cycle.

    If so, cleansing the Shard would be akin to dissolving a drop of oil in a glass of water. It's essence would have to go somewhere, so you would just end up with a cup of water completely tainted by oil rather than copntained in a drop/shard. In my cosmology Tharizdun realized this, and that the only way to stop this Obyrith cycle would be to contain the shard as best as possible and destroy reality before they could gather enough power to survive it. Obsessing over this was at least part of what drove him mad. Being tainted by the Shard and the act of setting his plan in motion must also have played their parts.

    I leave unanswered if he is ultimately correct about this being the only way, but I thought it could be relevant to your point 4.
    First of all thank you for this awesome post. I still have to research the Baernoloths but this life-boat idea is one that I had misplaced mentally in my research. Some other thoughts come to mind on how to integrate this shard. I feel like this is getting to be a great big parallel to the Marvel 2015 Secret Wars storyline in some ways..
    Who else would be able to contain the Shard of Ultimate Evil? If the Baernoloths are a link associating the Yugoloths and the Obyriths then we definitely can't trust Gehenna with it.. I'm not sure how the cosmos would fare if the shard were put into Hades. The wasting away of Hope in those who visit the pure evil plane might be transformed into a more violent side of depression if we stuck the shard there. The river styx would be corrupted and the whole of the astral sea might be contaminated.. I wish we could bind the shard to Tharizdun in his prison but that doesn't sound like a good idea. And we can't get rid of the Elemental Planes or the material realms would be boring as ****.

    I gotta go research the Baernoloths because I had assumed the universe of Tharizdun and Primus' ancient "cosmic order" existed with a balance of law, chaos, good, and evil. But now it's sounding like all evil derives from the Obyrinths and that makes it seem like there was nothing but Law in the original world.. now I'm not sure where Good comes from unless that is derived solely from the beliefs of mortals- a supposition dependent on the question of if the ancient cosmos had more or less faithful mortal souls and worlds. What exists now may be the 1% of matter that remains after 99% of it was destroyed by antimatter, to make a parallel for the horrible destruction involved in the infinite destroyed worlds of Tharizdun and the infinite layers of the abyss- if they are actually composed in some way of the countless darkened worlds that fell in ancient times. I can't exactly satisfy Tharizdun in returning the cosmos to it's original order if that original cosmos was not- as I assumed- a world of balanced natural law good chaos and evil.


    Perhaps it is the nature of a world composed entirely of order to spawn powerful beings which become fearful in the universe's decline towards sosme form of astral heat death and this drives the powers that be to resort to foul means to preserve themselves after it's decay. Maybe all universes that do not contain the taint of the Obyriths are bound to be universes that spawn those same elder evils. I know if I were at the end of all things I would try to boil the dimensions to escape it in a "liferaft".
    In that case, the peace we strive for -is- the shard of elemental evil. Maybe said shard is just what the universe is bound to become if left to dissolve away over time in peace.
    @Patt

    Spoiler: Bleep bloop!
    Show
    "People are ideas." :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, RIP Pluto: :IRC lives:

    https://thisisstorytelling-wordpress-com

    T_P_T

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    Planetar

    Join Date
    May 2020
    Location
    Midwest, Unfortunately
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The plan to un-make the D&D cosmos: Tharizdun's Perfect World

    This sounds like a really cool epic level campaign. I will warn you about trying to merge the 4e World Axis setting with the 2e/3e/5e Great Wheel setting that you're going to run into inconsistencies and retcons all over the place, because the World Axis was handled more as a reboot/new continuity than a continuation or different perspective on preexisting material. To a fair extent you're going to run into issues like this between 2e, 3e, and 5e as well, as retcons and resets will pop-up regularly. More basically, D&D hasn't even remotely had a steady guiding hand for its metaplot between editions (although 5e reportedly has an internal one to cover its whole multiverse within its edition, at least according to a Mike Mearls interview with either Kotaku or Polygon, I forget which). I largely only run homebrew settings, so the only edition who's cosmology I really got into was 4e's, but I can say that iirc the World Axis setting had a pretty strong cosmic horror theme that the Great Wheel wasn't nearly so committed to.
    92% of forum users no longer put made-up statistics in their signatures. If you're part of the 8% who still do, copy and paste this into your signature.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2020

    Default Re: The plan to un-make the D&D cosmos: Tharizdun's Perfect World

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonsonthemap View Post
    This sounds like a really cool epic level campaign. I will warn you about trying to merge the 4e World Axis setting with the 2e/3e/5e Great Wheel setting that you're going to run into inconsistencies and retcons all over the place, because the World Axis was handled more as a reboot/new continuity than a continuation or different perspective on preexisting material. To a fair extent you're going to run into issues like this between 2e, 3e, and 5e as well, as retcons and resets will pop-up regularly. More basically, D&D hasn't even remotely had a steady guiding hand for its metaplot between editions (although 5e reportedly has an internal one to cover its whole multiverse within its edition, at least according to a Mike Mearls interview with either Kotaku or Polygon, I forget which). I largely only run homebrew settings, so the only edition who's cosmology I really got into was 4e's, but I can say that iirc the World Axis setting had a pretty strong cosmic horror theme that the Great Wheel wasn't nearly so committed to.
    I'm actually hoping to theorize a world cosmology that predates both of those systems. The great wheel fails to portray the insane significance of the abyss and the world axis is a big dumb stoopid-head (though brilliant at points..) so I'm trying to deduce what this "cosmic order" beloved by OG Primus and pre-maddenned Tharizdun looked like.
    Last edited by PattThe; 2020-10-23 at 11:11 PM.
    @Patt

    Spoiler: Bleep bloop!
    Show
    "People are ideas." :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, RIP Pluto: :IRC lives:

    https://thisisstorytelling-wordpress-com

    T_P_T

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Orc in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2016

    Default Re: The plan to un-make the D&D cosmos: Tharizdun's Perfect World

    Quote Originally Posted by PattThe View Post
    Tharizdun and Primus' ancient "cosmic order" existed with a balance of law, chaos, good, and evil. But now it's sounding like all evil derives from the Obyrinths and that makes it seem like there was nothing but Law in the original world..
    It's been a while since I kept up to date on D&D cosmologies (shifted to Pathfinder som years ago), so forgive me if my knowledge is somewhat out of date, but my impression was always that D&D cosmoses were based on pockets of primal chaos (the far realms?) that developed consistent rules, and so became realities/anathema to pure chaos. If those rules arose spontaneously or had prime creators is another discussion, but if that is the case, then all realities would have in common that they were built of the same bricks of primal chaos -> meaning that they might be different, but would be somewhat similar based upon the premise that you might build a ton of different things with Lego bricks, but it's still all just Lego.

    The conclusion being that evil and chaos might well have existed already, but would become different versions of evil and chaos once the shard was introduced.
    We certainly know that the shard was compatible enough with reality that it was able to interact with and twist it, yet still remain somewhat recognizable to it's original denizens. Something I would definitely consider upsetting the balance as intended by an original creator or perceived by pre-shard non-creators.
    Last edited by Misereor; 2020-10-23 at 05:54 AM.
    -
    What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder, stronger, in a later edition.
    -

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Millstone85's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Paris, France
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The plan to un-make the D&D cosmos: Tharizdun's Perfect World

    Another really cool legend that you might want to incorporate is that of the Twin Serpents of Law.

    These primordial gods, called Ahriman and Jazirian, once bit each other's tails, or perhaps were a single deity called the World Serpent. The legend credit them with the creation of the Outlands, and from there the Outer Planes. But then, just like Bahamut and Tiamat, or Selūne and Shar, or Beshaba and Tymora, and probably many others, they became of two minds.

    The separation was violent, and they both have been healing their wounds ever since, Jazirian midway up Mount Celestia, Ahriman at the bottom of the Nine Hells.

    And it is said that Ahriman created himself an avatar, projecting his will into a handsome devil wielding a ruby rod.

    Quote Originally Posted by PattThe View Post
    Secondly, if there were Secondusi who took on the role of Primus, would the title alone be enough to disown Asmodeus or go through with Shard/Stone swapping shenanigans?
    It is more than just a title or a role.

    The modron hierarchy goes monodrones, duodrones, tridrones, quadrones, pentadrones, decatons, nonatons, octons, septons, hextons, quintons, quartons, tertians, secundi, and Primus. A new modron is always created as a monodrone, but may then become each type in order, whenever a higher modron happens to have been destroyed and must be replaced.

    Our secundus may once have been a monodrone, but is now physically and mentally different from one. Same goes with its following apotheosis. It is no longer a secundus. It is Primus, with all the authority and divine mojo that entails.

    In any case, I imagine that it would be very difficult to convince Primus to destroy not just one but two keystones of Law.

    Quote Originally Posted by Misereor View Post
    my impression was always that D&D cosmoses were based on pockets of primal chaos (the far realms?) that developed consistent rules
    if that is the case, then all realities would have in common that they were built of the same bricks of primal chaos
    My take on this is that the first step in developing consistent rules is the selection of a subset of bricks that can work together.

    Limbo and the Elemental Chaos are remnants of that initial selection. They contain all the spiritual and elemental principles (or should I say "quiddities", to take a page from OotS) of the cosmos, gathered but not yet assembled.

    But the Far Realm is an older and greater chaos, full of alien concepts, exotic elements and ƨ̪̘̗̠̞̄ͅt̞̰̩̤̼́ɿ̞̖ͥɒ̯̮̟̱̞͓̬͐̚n̲̙̥̹͑ͤ̏͆ϱ̘̬̔̏̊͛̍̆ͮɘ͖ ̎̈́ɿ̖̙͗͑̈̌ͤ ̩t̩͍̒ʜ̠͙̬͖͈̘̬́̂ͮi̺̹͈͉̘ͦ͊ǹ̥̓ϱ̰̓ƨͧ̑͊ͥ that are not compatible with the cosmos the characters live in.

    On that note, the World Axis does not have Limbo. It moves both slaadi and githzerai to the Elemental Chaos. Meanwhile, the 5e version of the Great Wheel somehow ends up with the Elemental Chaos in addition to the Elemental Planes and Limbo, but makes the EC a plane where pretty much nothing can survive for even a second.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2020

    Default Re: The plan to un-make the D&D cosmos: Tharizdun's Perfect World

    Quote Originally Posted by Millstone85 View Post
    . . . but makes the EC a plane where pretty much nothing can survive for even a second.
    Yeah a small problem since planescape is the difficulty of blending the cosmology with playable areas fun for players. As a DM who has been slowly running Planescape modules in 5e for over two years now I can say there are some fantastical elements that exist that players do not care for whatsoever. My party was on Ysgard and had to descend into Muspelheim down a 500+ foot multi-ledged plummit down to the black smudgey world below. They refused to jump to their temporary ysgardian deaths and also had no infinite rope (damnit past me) to descend so they waited around to bum a ship. Took hours in real-time.
    Similarly there are places in the cosmos with almost no gameplay utility due to that "nothing can survive for even a second" clause. Negative energy plane and the Positive Energy plane in many cases are like that, as well as anywhere more than a couple theoretical miles from the settled inner areas of the elemental planes in the 5e art-depiction, as things become increasingly esoteric and directionless as you go away from the center of the inner planes. On the other hand the Feywild and Shadowfel are completely gameable terrains but are also pallet swaps of the material plane so they don't get that full planar wow effect.

    On the topic of the serpent (coatl somehow) god who split into LG and LE, yeah I was aware. It seemed like a Forgotten Realms specific thing but Realmspace does seem to have quite an actual significance in the grand scheme of things due to Ao beign a stupid powerful overgod. Unlike Greyhawk which has been described to me as a crossing-station and stomping ground for material-planar travel seated kind of at the center of leylines across the multiverse (kind of like a certain MTG plane of ol') Realmspace seems to, as befitting for it's IRL position as the most supported and written about setting (RIP Dragonlance novels best of luck on the lawsuit), really bring up some hard questions about the cosmos across official and home brew worlds. Perhaps there are different ways to Unmake the unnatural conflicts in the multiverse by solving more personal and realm-specific problems across many worlds. I would suggest trying to bring those many dual-identity split gods together in attempts to bring about this Tharizdun (or Ghaunadaur in realms case but that depends on if you count the demonplague as canon, which I don't not that it matters) perfect world stuff- but that would give Asmodeus credit for saving the world and I *really* don't want that to happen for the 5000'th time. The Zargon story makes the main gods seem like such morons compared to him and that really shouldn't be happening that often..


    Edit: Going to research the Baernaloths now.. I feel like I'm walking into a 400 level course back at college, all this elder evil research and I still have no idea what to expect from the next lore dump.
    Last edited by PattThe; 2020-10-23 at 11:11 PM.
    @Patt

    Spoiler: Bleep bloop!
    Show
    "People are ideas." :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, RIP Pluto: :IRC lives:

    https://thisisstorytelling-wordpress-com

    T_P_T

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2020

    Question Re: The plan to un-make the D&D cosmos: Tharizdun's Perfect World

    From Planescape's 'Planes of Conflict'..
    "Rumor has it that the baernoloths select certain ultroloths to keep ancient secrets. The ultroloths who earn this secret knowledge rise far and above the rest of their kind. Chant is that the General of Gehenna has received almost all the knowledge the baernoloths have to impart."
    And from AJ Pickett I have a dnd beyond stat block..
    https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/646586-baernaloth


    First off, Baernoloth fiend patron. Hype.
    Second, the Generals of Gehenna have always been a side favorite of mine but now I'm really frustrated that I don't know about any modules that take them seriously or ever touches on the secrets they know except for the hag and book-making things.. It's strange, for beings apathetic and evil enough to open the door and whistle in the Obyriths they sure seem totally Fiendish and not Elder Evil at a-


    Wait....

    Why would the Baernoloths let the Obyriths in?
    Did they consider them to be an excellent way to increase the world's suffering? It sort of seems like helping other beings survive a torturous destruction.. why would the Baernoloths care?
    I am sus of these guys. Nothing in their track record seems to match this. The only thing that comes to MY mind that I haven't mentioned already is that the Baernoloths either didn't recognize the Obyriths as living things by any rational means (no souls?) and thus treated them as a fellow robotic force of evil.. or the inviting of the Obyriths into our plane served a purpose for the Baernoloth. I guess a pure selfish being not caring for ramifications (or hoping for them) would let alien destroyers in without a thought (especially considering the vast expansion of the fiendish 'children' of the Baernoloths) but what if they let them in because they knew the Obyriths would suffer MORE in THIS reality than in the other?

    Yugoloths constantly lie. What if the Baernoloth tricked the Obyriths into thinking any of this was a good idea? ..now I'm wondering if we can convince the Elder Evils and Obyriths that being in this reality was never in their own better interest to begin with and the Baernoloths tricked them. I mean, they probably did right? Heh. Imagine convincing the various Obyrith Demon Lords to leave with just words and the reliably despicable qualities of evil. Sounds like a Simpsons sketch where Kade and Kodos flee earth because the cast makes them feel like idiots for landing on earth in the first place. Actually, the whole deception thing is not far from how we tricked Tharizdun into a prison of its own mind..


    Edit: Just brushed up on some Modron research (read/wrote wonderful youtube comments about Modron music and the collective unconscious of Primus expressed through emergence via infinite click tracks, which honestly sounds like the most nirvana-level techno in all the cosmos) and I am starting to fill out the assumed respect I've had for these ancient parts of the cosmos. Planescape is really pulling me back into a more philosophy-oriented cosmological viewpoint which just makes me slide back into seeing the Elder Evils as psychological constructs, or perhaps just psychological reactions to the mere concept of alien intrusion; the notion that your own anxiety about imaginary threats produces a very real physiological stress that can kill you. Perhaps it's as simple as that.. however, that depends on if the cosmos were always dominated by the beliefs of mortals- or more specifically the sacrifice of their petitioners as they form the outer planes. I just don't know if Primus predates mortal life or not.. In my own rebooted D&D cosmology (The Chandelier Cosmology, which was formed EXPLICITLY to set each of the outer planes as having a specific raison d'źtre and an orderly progression of the cosmos' structure) I have two instances, one loose and over extended cosmological time and one tight with specific progression of temporal events, where mortal life is shaped invariably from the transfer of positive energy descending through reality from a White Hole positive energy point and a black hole negative energy point existing in the material space. (The Astral curtain being formed from a traveler but that's a story for some writef- I mean homebrewery chat in some other thread.) Point being in that one I know that my Titans and Primordials formed before localized mortal life (unless an Aboleth can evolve on the toe of an aquatic primordial that's constantly battling with glowy smash humanoids of pure alignment. wouldn't bet against those creeps myself honestly.). In D&D as far as I know there's never been a serious investigation into the mortal presence in the time waaaaaay before the Dawn War (to use a Torillian example. 40k years in the past should be a laughable distance in cosmic history but that gets into an issue of ASTRAL time and MATERIAL (phlogistoooooooooon!) time which... oof.
    Last edited by PattThe; 2020-10-24 at 04:57 AM.
    @Patt

    Spoiler: Bleep bloop!
    Show
    "People are ideas." :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, RIP Pluto: :IRC lives:

    https://thisisstorytelling-wordpress-com

    T_P_T

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Millstone85's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Paris, France
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The plan to un-make the D&D cosmos: Tharizdun's Perfect World

    Quote Originally Posted by PattThe View Post
    read/wrote wonderful youtube comments about Modron music and the collective unconscious of Primus expressed through emergence via infinite click tracks, which honestly sounds like the most nirvana-level techno in all the cosmos
    That's so cool! I was already imagining modrons singing Daft Punk, particularly Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger or Technologic .

    Elder Evils as psychological constructs, or perhaps just psychological reactions to the mere concept of alien intrusion; the notion that your own anxiety about imaginary threats produces a very real physiological stress that can kill you.
    Yes, another interesting interpretation of the Far Realm is that it doesn't exist. There is only the edge of existence, the void on which the mind tries to distinguish presence and intent, anything that would stare back, and ends up conjuring the most demented tulpas.

    It is also one interpretation of the SCP Foundation's pattern screamers or Nobilis' excrucians.

    that depends on if the cosmos were always dominated by the beliefs of mortals- or more specifically the sacrifice of their petitioners as they form the outer planes. I just don't know if Primus predates mortal life or not.. In my own rebooted D&D cosmology (The Chandelier Cosmology, which...
    That's why I like 4e's interpretation of Primus and am taking inspiration from it for the cosmology and creation myth of my homebrew setting. It is still nowhere thread-ready, but here is a little preview.

    I am going with a Dawn War between seven elements, divided into three generations:
    1. Ether
    2. Fire, Air, Water & Earth
    3. Metal & Wood

    The G3 elements won by virtue of being able to incorporate the G2 into themselves. The real winner, however, was ether, because metal and wood then put a vast emptiness between themselves.

    Mortal worlds coalesced there, and have only recently become the source of a G4 element. Not sure if I will call it astral, psionic or psychic essence. I am also considering incarnum, ki or simply souls.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2020

    furious Re: The plan to un-make the D&D cosmos: Tharizdun's Perfect World

    Quote Originally Posted by Millstone85 View Post
    That's so cool! I was already imagining modrons singing Daft Punk, particularly Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger or Technologic .
    Doing so would imply that Primus uses the gears of mechanus as a radio antennae to tune his internal radio transceiver to a techno station in europe on earth's material plane. This is headcanon appropriate for this forum.

    Yes, another interesting interpretation of the Far Realm is that it doesn't exist. There is only the edge of existence, the void on which the mind tries to distinguish presence and intent, anything that would stare back, and ends up conjuring the most demented tulpas.
    1. The far realms is the inverse of the outer layer of a black hole, where all expansion of reality flat-worlds on the 2d negatively curved surface. Explains the screwy physics and relativistic features. Actually this explains how the Illithid can traverse time and have the infinite time loop of their empire over the gith.
    2. tulpas
    3. hey now the far realm actually makes SENSE in planescape cosmology as they too are formed from the collective beliefs of reality, namely what people don't know they're thinking.
    Honestly, the outer planes are literally the Warp/Realm of Souls from Warhammer it's just that in our multiverse we had the Ones Above All (or whatever Ao referred to the players/dm's/wotc to as in that novel) guiding it into a specific kind of fantasy mad-house. Those ones above all being the exploding D&D community from gygax's extended network of creatives and all those they influenced. I love the idea that the phlogiston between crystal spheres, the realm of the overgods, has these superdimensional presences putting the overgods in fear for what the next DM (or corporation) will compel them to do next.

    That's why I like 4e's interpretation of Primus and am taking inspiration from it for the cosmology and creation myth of my homebrew setting. It is still nowhere thread-ready, but here is a little preview.
    ". . . I like 4e's interpretation of . . . (but) . . . it is nowhere thread-ready-"
    yup. accreate summation of 4e.

    I am going with a Dawn War between seven elements, divided into three generations:
    Oh hey that's how to use lists, knew someone'd do them when I happened to be replying so I could memorize the layout later. lurk moar
    But I have to ask, were the quasielemental planes not good enough? They're so cool! There are positive energy aligned and negative energy aligned quasi elemental planes which makes the middle of the center horizontal slice of the sphere of the inner planes (the pure 4 elemental planes and, in 5e's layout, the material plane and it's echoes. Wait.. I just remembered a question I had back in Core 5e.. is there an inner planar system for every material plane or.. crystal sphere I guess? I gotta freaking study spelljammer books.. but planescape is so good!) as a world *neutral* to life affecting energy! I was discussing this on the critical role discord when someone listed several negative-energy-immune construct-like things and were confused as to Stone being neutral to necrotic damage. Simple, it draws it's energy from a realm balanced in its relationship to positive and negative energy.
    Apologies for using the forum-fire-bait "is x not good enough?" saying here, hope you take it as conversational as that is it's intention.

    The G3 elements won by virtue of being able to incorporate the G2 into themselves. The real winner, however, was ether, because metal and wood then put a vast emptiness between themselves. Mortal worlds coalesced there, and have only recently become the source of a G4 element. Not sure if I will call it astral, psionic or psychic essence. I am also considering incarnum, ki or simply souls.
    Gonna take a pass on the wood element as Chinese elemental theory is not my specialty. I'm gonna personally continue to ignore Wood for my own integrations.
    nervously shields homebrew cosmology from alien worldviews Don't look.. we don't have any obyrinths here and I'm not letting them sneak in..
    Wait, I haven't incorporated the baernoth in the chandelier cosmology yet. I won't do that until I figure out what to represent CG with....
    Also HNNNNG the general of gehenna's story about purifying their kind from law and chaos and it being associated with the Shard of Elemental Evil gives me some big HMMMMMMM's about the Baernoloth and their decision to let the Obyriths (or trick them in) seem even more FRUSTRATINGLY selfish and ignorant. Seriously, if these guys let all the elder evil go wild just so that when the Queen of Chaos uses their forms as inspiration for a new breed of fiend that would be the baernoloth's prime children it comes back later that the generals of gehenna (who supposedly ((collectively?)) know all the secrets the baernoloth have to tell) could use the influence of Hades (pre exodus?) and the Shard of Ultimate Evil's relationship to forever typecast themselves into being purely NE, thus fulfilling the Baernoloth's desire to pursue expanding it's presence over life to ensure that all possible kinds of torture would exist in reality-
    then they REALLY are the perfect exampleof NE because now I'm gonna explain NE people as anyone who willingly makes decisions that should; end TERRIBLY for everyone including them, and just because they are so mind shatteringly unconcerned with that fact and value their own desires and beliefs as above even philosophical topics- just because of THAT being the same vibe that the Obyriths ******* loooove the Baernoloths don't get their comeuppance and instead are greatly rewarded with being able to never grow or learn or care about anything ever, fully sated and ever entertained by everything they see in Hades.

    You know, those people who would play Civ and make life *hell* by polluting the world, not for exploiting the terrain with civ features or tech, but because they want to. Yano, but with the universe. This cosmic cynicism is honestly making me realize how badass planescape is. The Obyriths- the ELDER EVILS THEMSELVES were likely selected- [u]possibly from a subset of beings of ALL SHAPES SIZES AND ALIGNMENTS as the ONLY ones to grab out from their lifeboat and introduce to our world, subsequently threatening everything and creating an infinite domain where everything is as they wish the world was (on multiple occasions these terrible creatures are rewarded with living in personal haevens (tharizdun) as a reward for terrible participation in sin (INCLUDING THE BAERNOLOTH, who literally never leave Hades and thus are also ensuring themselves a personal haeven) while the rest of the cosmos is in CONSTANT turmoil except literally for Elysium which only serves to balance out the horribly pure evil of Hades with levels of good so powerful that travelers avoid it with EQUAL PREJUDICE TO HADES-
    *inhale* ..this trail of destruction just weaves about in every possible direction like a space-filling fractal..

    The sin of the baernoloth (an ultimately pointless creature-species with base 20 CR but never leaving their home to do anything most of the time) is so great that the Obyriths look like absolute fools for accepting their offer to join our universe. They were better off dying with their dimension.

    ..and the baernoloth probably could have saved ALL OF THE POWERS from that reality, EASILY including the good ones! I swear- my headcanon now is that the baernoloth viewed countless realities dying all the time, running billions of simulations or observations (heyhey elder eye I always thought it was the player viewing reality through it but NOPE I bet it's the baernoloth's peephole) and plucking the worst of the worst from the worst of the worst.

    *seething* D&D is fun isn't it? not actually mad just deeply philosophically fuming that they likely made good worse just by being this intentionally bad.
    Last edited by PattThe; 2020-10-25 at 02:30 AM.
    @Patt

    Spoiler: Bleep bloop!
    Show
    "People are ideas." :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, RIP Pluto: :IRC lives:

    https://thisisstorytelling-wordpress-com

    T_P_T

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Millstone85's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Paris, France
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The plan to un-make the D&D cosmos: Tharizdun's Perfect World

    Quote Originally Posted by PattThe View Post
    But I have to ask, were the quasielemental planes not good enough? They're so cool! There are positive energy aligned and negative energy aligned quasi elemental planes
    Gonna take a pass on the wood element as Chinese elemental theory is not my specialty.
    You should first ask about the Energy Planes. As it happens, and with complete disregard for however Chinese elements "actually" work, I instead plan to use elemental wood in all matters of life, death, undeath and afterlife.

    My idea is that typical organic life is a mix of the four elements as they are found on mortal worlds, i.e. in a weak state. But what if there first was organic life pulsing with the full power of its composing elements? That's elemental wood.

    And it is going to be the place where the dead come back to life as unaging beings, only to find themselves confronted to the ferocious creatures endlessly spawned there. My setting's equivalent of the Blood War.

    Now I just have to put all this, and more, in the form of a proper thread for the homebrew forum. That should be easy, right?

    I just remembered a question I had back in Core 5e.. is there an inner planar system for every material plane or.. crystal sphere I guess?
    Speaking of the quasi-elemental planes, 5e also got rid of them, even though the Energy Planes are still a thing. I do not know why, but the Energy Planes are no longer in the neighborhood of the Elemental Planes. There is no longer that ball. Instead, the Energy Planes are, hmm, outerer than the Outer Planes? At least, the main map represents them completely outside.

    But that map sucks anyway. Going by the text of the PHB and DMG, here is what I think a more accurate map would look like. Two wheels, each with its own center. And I guess the Energy Planes would be perpendicular to it all.

    As for crystal spheres... While 5e has made numerous references to Spelljammer, there is yet to be a 5e description of what separates the worlds of the Prime Material, or how they might relate differently to the rest of the cosmology.

    So far, all I know from 5e is that:
    • It remains canon that Toril is one of eight planets orbiting a sun, the others being called Anadia, Coliar, Karpri, Chandos, Glyth, Garden and H'catha. Or so says the celestial chart of Captain N'ghathrod, an illithid pirate encountered in Dungeon of the Mad Mage along with their crashed spelljamming vessel called the Scavenger.
    • Eberron is part of a separate material plane with virtually no connection to the Great Wheel. It instead possesses its own set of planes, some of which are inner-like, outer-like, both, or neither.

    Also HNNNNG the general of gehenna's story about purifying their kind from law and chaos and it being associated with the Shard of Elemental Evil gives me some big HMMMMMMM's about the Baernoloth and their decision to let the Obyriths (or trick them in) seem even more FRUSTRATINGLY selfish and ignorant.
    Now, I must apologise. I have a lot of things to say on various things you say, but I guess it is ultimately all off-topic, because I realize that I don't know how to critique or improve your scenario.
    Last edited by Millstone85; 2020-10-28 at 08:53 PM.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Titan in the Playground
     
    PairO'Dice Lost's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Malsheem, Nessus
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The plan to un-make the D&D cosmos: Tharizdun's Perfect World

    So, I'm not trying to just come in here and say "this is all dumb, why bother," but...

    Quote Originally Posted by PattThe View Post
    The one thing I agree with 4e on is that the abyss is clearly (though I wish it weren't) not just some outer plane like all the others.
    Quote Originally Posted by PattThe
    I'm actually hoping to theorize a world cosmology that predates both of those systems. The great wheel fails to portray the insane significance of the abyss and the world axis is a big dumb stoopid-head (though brilliant at points..)
    ...why, exactly, do you think that the Abyss is special?

    it seems like you've predicated this entire setup on the idea that the Abyss is somehow uniquely significant and that the obyriths invaded reality and so forth...but that's all nonsensical retcons from 4e, and you obviously don't like 4e or its cosmology, so you've basically taken the Great Wheel, added in stuff you didn't like, and then are trying to fix the stuff you added in...?

    In terms of Planescape, the Abyss is nothing special. It's the CE plane, with precisely the same significance to the cosmos as Celestia, Ysgard, and Baator have. It doesn't have stronger rulers; in general Good planar lords are stronger than Evil ones, with balance existing because the Evil ones are more numerous, and Jazirian and Ahriman dwarf all the Chaotic planar lords if you believe the Twin Serpents myth. It isn't any bigger than the others; while it's called the "Infinite Layers" of the Abyss, it really only has somewhere around 666 and they're "infinite in number" because they change unpredictably over time (if you find layer #667, that means that one of the other layers changed/dissolved/split/etc. and the new one emerged, or that the Abyss has 666±N layers and at some point it'll go down below 666 again). It's not "worse" than the others in the sense of "more evil," since the entire point of the Lower Planes is that there are many flavors of Evil and all of them are horrifying.

    And also remember that Law won the War of Law and Chaos. The "chaos" that exists in the Great Wheel is the nice leashed tamer version of the primordial Chaos that came before, so the idea that any Chaotic plane is stronger/larger/better/more important/etc. than any Lawful plane falls down on first principles.

    Quote Originally Posted by PattThe View Post
    Yeah a small problem since planescape is the difficulty of blending the cosmology with playable areas fun for players. As a DM who has been slowly running Planescape modules in 5e for over two years now I can say there are some fantastical elements that exist that players do not care for whatsoever. My party was on Ysgard and had to descend into Muspelheim down a 500+ foot multi-ledged plummit down to the black smudgey world below. They refused to jump to their temporary ysgardian deaths and also had no infinite rope (damnit past me) to descend so they waited around to bum a ship. Took hours in real-time.
    I'm just gonna say, as a longtime Planescape DM, that that scenario dragging isn't the fault of Planescape at all, that's the fault of your players. The whole point of Planescape is that you're traveling the cosmos to weird and wacky and wonderful places where the Laws of Physics are more like the Suggestions of Physics and nothing is like the Material Plane. Base jumping without a parachute onto a plain of obsidian stalagmites under the firm conviction that you'll be good as new tomorrow morning when you get resurrected is exactly the kind of thing you're supposed to do!

    Similarly there are places in the cosmos with almost no gameplay utility due to that "nothing can survive for even a second" clause. Negative energy plane and the Positive Energy plane in many cases are like that, as well as anywhere more than a couple theoretical miles from the settled inner areas of the elemental planes in the 5e art-depiction, as things become increasingly esoteric and directionless as you go away from the center of the inner planes.
    I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that the planes are super-lethal, because Planescape went out of its way to make the planes more approachable, not less, and no edition after 2e has (re)introduced that level of lethality. Like, the Negative Energy Plane in 3e deals 1d6 damage (minor dominant) or 1 negative level (major dominant) per round, so if you somehow find yourself dumped into the NEP without one of the many many spells or items to let you ignore that (adapt body, attune form, avoid planar effects....), you have no way to heal those effects, you have no way off the plane again (such as the portal you presumably just blind-jumped into), and you can't make it to a Doldrums area where you don't take damage every round, you can still survive for at least half a dozen rounds.

    I have no idea what the planar traits system is like in 4e, because the cosmology is bad and it should feel bad, but I imagine 5e isn't any harsher than 3e because they presumably accounted for the lack of planar protection spells when doing the plane writeups.

    On the topic of the serpent (coatl somehow) god who split into LG and LE, yeah I was aware. It seemed like a Forgotten Realms specific thing but Realmspace does seem to have quite an actual significance in the grand scheme of things due to Ao beign a stupid powerful overgod. Unlike Greyhawk which has been described to me as a crossing-station and stomping ground for material-planar travel seated kind of at the center of leylines across the multiverse (kind of like a certain MTG plane of ol') Realmspace seems to, as befitting for it's IRL position as the most supported and written about setting (RIP Dragonlance novels best of luck on the lawsuit), really bring up some hard questions about the cosmos across official and home brew worlds.
    The Twin Serpents myth isn't a Realms thing at all; they have the Shar and Selūne creation myth, which is thematically similar but different in several important ways, namely that the Twin Serpents created the Wheel while the sisters created Realmspace.

    As for why Greyspace and Realmspace are relatively significant, it has nothing to do with Ao's power level or similar, it's just that those two plus Krynnspace form the Radiant Triangle, a major crossroads for phlogiston flows. If you're not in a spelljammer and don't plan to go gateing around to other Prime worlds, Realmspace is no more significant in the grand scheme of things than any other world.

    however, that depends on if the cosmos were always dominated by the beliefs of mortals- or more specifically the sacrifice of their petitioners as they form the outer planes. I just don't know if Primus predates mortal life or not..
    All of the exemplar races (current ones, as well as past ones like the obyriths and ancient Baatorians) and their planar lords predate mortal life, and mortal life predates the gods (and there are still living aboleth who remember the time before the gods showed up). The Outer Planes are shaped to some degree by mortal belief, but they don't exist because of mortal belief, and petitioners aren't "sacrificed" at all, they eventually merge with their Outer Plane if they become sufficiently in tune with its worldview.

    In D&D as far as I know there's never been a serious investigation into the mortal presence in the time waaaaaay before the Dawn War (to use a Torillian example. 40k years in the past should be a laughable distance in cosmic history but that gets into an issue of ASTRAL time and MATERIAL (phlogistoooooooooon!) time which... oof.
    The Dawn War and the Primordials are, again, a terrible 4e retcon, which is why they've never been detailed.

    Quote Originally Posted by PattThe
    Wait.. I just remembered a question I had back in Core 5e.. is there an inner planar system for every material plane or.. crystal sphere I guess? I gotta freaking study spelljammer books.. but planescape is so good!)
    Nope, all Material Plane worlds go to the same Inner Planes, since there's only one set of Inner Planes. There can be, however, "local" extrusions/projections/nodes/etc. of the Inner Planes into sealed crystal spheres, like you see in Dark Sun or Eberron, where the local "planes" are still connected to the greater whole but are "flavored" by the local conditions and metaphysics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Millstone85
    Speaking of the quasi-elemental planes, 5e also got rid of them, even though the Energy Planes are still a thing. I do not know why, but the Energy Planes are no longer in the neighborhood of the Elemental Planes. There is no longer that ball. Instead, the Energy Planes are, hmm, outerer than the Outer Planes? At least, the main map represents them completely outside.
    The Energy Planes have moved in 5e because the 5e devs don't have the slightest clue what they're bleeping doing and have mistakenly conflated "positive energy" with "Goodness" and "negative energy" with "Evilness," as many people sadly have over the years. There's no reason for them to have moved either functionally or metaphysically, and the fact that that change nuked the Quasielemental Planes is the least of its sins.
    Last edited by PairO'Dice Lost; 2020-10-30 at 05:16 AM.
    Better to DM in Baator than play in Celestia
    You can just call me Dice; that's how I roll.


    Spoiler: Sig of Holding
    Show

    Quote Originally Posted by abadguy View Post
    Darn you PoDL for making me care about a bunch of NPC Commoners!
    Quote Originally Posted by Chambers View Post
    I'm pretty sure turning Waterdeep into a sheet of glass wasn't the best win condition for that fight. We lived though!
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'DiceLost View Post
    <Snip>
    Where are my Like, Love, and Want to Have Your Manchildren (Totally Homo) buttons for this post?
    Won a cookie for this, won everything for this

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •