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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default I am a bit worried about this party

    Well I have a 4 player party as follows:

    Halfling cleric 4
    Dwarf wizard 4
    Tibbit soulknife 4
    Dwarf warlock 4

    And I am a bit worried for possible balancing issues or just for some of them that might feel a bit useless.


    Also should I use traps?

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DwarfBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: I am a bit worried about this party

    Nothing wrong with the party balance, they are just not going to be interested in the things a traditional party would. They aren't going to be big on dungeon bashing and exploration, lacking a solid tank and dedicated rogue.

    So give them missions that do play to their strengths. Investigation, mysteries, eldritch abominations...think Call of Cthulhu.
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  3. - Top - End - #3
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: I am a bit worried about this party

    Quote Originally Posted by aglondier View Post
    Nothing wrong with the party balance, they are just not going to be interested in the things a traditional party would. They aren't going to be big on dungeon bashing and exploration, lacking a solid tank and dedicated rogue.

    So give them missions that do play to their strengths. Investigation, mysteries, eldritch abominations...think Call of Cthulhu.
    Ye my only problem is that this was supposed to be a "goofy" campaign about them getting around and do traditional adventurers stuff as we decided during the session 0.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: I am a bit worried about this party

    As an experienced DM, I don't see too much of an issue with the party. The cleric can easily double as a "tank" with some full plate, and you have plenty of casting to shore up any missing holes.

    The soulknife (the weakest point) is probably okay at this level, especially looking at your character builds (which don't seem very focused on optimization), but if they start falling off a little, you can ask the player if they'd be interested in one of the many soulknife fixes floating around this forum. Off the top of my head, giving them full BAB, the conjuration specialist's abrupt jaunt, and the ability to swap their weapon abilities on the fly as a standard action should bring them up to T3ish.

    Bonus Throwaway thought for a fun goofy campaign : A planar invasion from the plane of funny animated movies, where the invasion points are "dungeons" that begin to take planar traits in the area from the TV show?
    Last edited by Demidos; 2020-10-21 at 04:58 PM.
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    Completed Classes
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  5. - Top - End - #5
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    MaxiDuRaritry's Avatar

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    Default Re: I am a bit worried about this party

    I'd consider buffing the soulknife. A few extra skill points, a few bonus feats, faster blade progression (and perhaps some bennies from soulbow), a few extra skills, full BAB, and trapfinding, perhaps?
    Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2020-10-21 at 05:04 PM.

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    GrayDeath's Avatar

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    Default Re: I am a bit worried about this party

    Agree with Max, ideally just give it Pathfinders Soulknife/Blade version, will not overshadow the other 3, but make what the player obviously wants (their very own mental weapon) MUCH better usable.
    A neutron walks into a bar and says, “How much for a beer?” The bartender says, “For you? No charge.”

    01010100011011110010000001100010011001010010000001 10111101110010001000000110111001101111011101000010 00000111010001101111001000000110001001100101001011 100010111000101110

    Later: An atom walks into a bar an asks the bartender “Have you seen an electron? I left it in here last night.” The bartender says, “Are you sure?” The atom says, “I’m positive.”

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: I am a bit worried about this party

    Talk to your players. Outside of the game, one at the time. see what they want to do, and figure out if there will even be a problem.
    I am rel.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: I am a bit worried about this party

    Quote Originally Posted by rel View Post
    Talk to your players. Outside of the game, one at the time. see what they want to do, and figure out if there will even be a problem.
    ^^ this right here is the answer!
    Quote Originally Posted by chaotic stupid View Post
    tippy's posted, thread's over now

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  9. - Top - End - #9
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Blackhawk748's Avatar

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    Default Re: I am a bit worried about this party

    The Soulknife is really the only one who is liable to have an issue. Are they gonna go Soulbow?
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  10. - Top - End - #10
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: I am a bit worried about this party

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk748 View Post
    The Soulknife is really the only one who is liable to have an issue. Are they gonna go Soulbow?
    Nope, and I was under the impression that warlock was also on the weak side of the spectrum

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    Rynjin's Avatar

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    Default Re: I am a bit worried about this party

    I second the idea of "let the Soulknife play the Pathfinder version", because as I undertand it the 3.5 Soulknife is...baffling in its execution.

    Other than that, unless your Wizard and Cleric are going out of their way to break the game, it's probably fine. It doesn't appear that your group is going to be super high op in general if everyone signed on for a "goofy" campaign; ultra competent characters tend to break that kind of idea real quick.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: I am a bit worried about this party

    Looks like dungeon delving would be fine. Tanking is almost a fictional concept in 3.5e since aggro doesn’t exist and the potential shield wall/door plugging formations rarely materialize with such a small group. Everyone needs to look after their own durability and most of the classes listed there have options. As others have mentioned, fix the poor soulknife.

    On traps, don’t add bad ones. If the party could spring a grand majority of traps with a wand of summon monkey 1, and do it leisurely, those are bad traps that serve nothing but RNG resource attrition and wasted table time. You put in monsters because the players might enjoy fighting, fleeing, sneaking past, conversing with... The traps should add something. Time pressure to an encounter, an obvious point of no return state, a more hazardous clearly optional side thing they are free to avoid but can step up to challenge.
    If all rules are suggestions what happens when I pass the save?

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    GrayDeath's Avatar

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    Default Re: I am a bit worried about this party

    Quote Originally Posted by Trandir View Post
    Nope, and I was under the impression that warlock was also on the weak side of the spectrum
    Warlocks CAN be built to be complete garbage (easiest way is taking DC dependant Invoactions and dumping charisma, second easiest is thinking they are only good at damage and only taking Eldritch Blast invocationbs^^).

    If they are however built at least smartly, they will always have ways to cntribute.
    Until they reach Level 12 they wont be BEST anywhere, but conbtribute a Warlock always can.

    As its my favourite D&D 3.5 Class, care to share the exact build? Without going overboard and diving into the Warlockepedias, that could help avoid self hampering choices. ;)
    Last edited by GrayDeath; 2020-10-22 at 11:10 AM.
    A neutron walks into a bar and says, “How much for a beer?” The bartender says, “For you? No charge.”

    01010100011011110010000001100010011001010010000001 10111101110010001000000110111001101111011101000010 00000111010001101111001000000110001001100101001011 100010111000101110

    Later: An atom walks into a bar an asks the bartender “Have you seen an electron? I left it in here last night.” The bartender says, “Are you sure?” The atom says, “I’m positive.”

  14. - Top - End - #14
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    Telonius's Avatar

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    Default Re: I am a bit worried about this party

    Will the party Warlock be social-focused? Dwarf will drag that down slightly, but it's nothing that Beguiling Influence can't fix. Otherwise I don't see a clear party Face there. I'd suggest that the Warlock and the Wizard should probably collaborate closely. There's a lot of overlap between Invocations and stuff that a Wizard might cast semi-regularly. If they're working together, the Warlock can free up spell selection for the Wizard, leading to a much stronger party overall.

    Like the others have said, the Soulknife is definitely the weak link. It's probably just as well that the player isn't going Soulbow; being in a party where Eldritch Blast is a thing would just make them feel bad.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    MaxiDuRaritry's Avatar

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    Default Re: I am a bit worried about this party

    Would the soulknife consider playing a psychic rogue? Maybe with the soulbound weapon psychic warrior ACF added to play as a soulknife expy? That'd be a lot better overall, I think. Or instead of that ACF, have him take the Ancestral Relic feat and add it to a summonable weapon. Or maybe even the 3.0 soulknife PrC, albeit updated to 3.5's sensibilities.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: I am a bit worried about this party

    Don't fix what isn't broken. Don't go preemptively nerfing the weakest member / boosting the strongest.

    Here, the epimethian approach is appropriate: wait until there is a defined problem to attempt fixes.

    However, that doesn't mean that this conversation has to be useless. It's good to ask yourself the questions, "what am I going to do if…". This should include things like "what if someone is not able to contribute", "what if someone isn't having fun, but doesn't know why", etc. Knowing *how* you will respond to such problems, *what* solutions you will consider to try to fix things without making even worse problems, *how* you will respond to and investigate claims of balance issues is important preparation.

    And don't be surprised if you find that the 4th level Wizard is underpowered and needs help contributing.
    Last edited by Quertus; 2020-10-23 at 08:46 AM.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: I am a bit worried about this party

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    Don't fix what isn't broken. Don't go preemptively nerfing the weakest member / boosting the strongest.

    Here, the epimethian approach is appropriate: wait until there is a defined problem to attempt fixes.

    However, that doesn't mean that this conversation has to be useless. It's good to ask yourself the questions, "what am I going to do if…". This should include things like "what if someone is not able to contribute", "what if someone isn't having fun, but doesn't know why", etc. Knowing *how* you will respond to such problems, *what* solutions you will consider to try to fix things without making even worse problems, *how* you will respond to and investigate claims of balance issues is important preparation.

    And don't be surprised if you find that the 4th level Wizard is underpowered and needs help contributing.
    I believe that building the character is a fun process and it's rewarding to find the best way to either make a concept come to life or to perform a specific task.

    As such if one of my players feels lagging behind, is not happy with their PC, or simply made some bad choices I have no problem in introducing some turbo NPC magic to allow a full retrain or swap PCs entirely.

    I, however, would like to avoid getting to that point if it's possible.

  18. - Top - End - #18
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    Blackhawk748's Avatar

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    Default Re: I am a bit worried about this party

    Quote Originally Posted by Trandir View Post
    Nope, and I was under the impression that warlock was also on the weak side of the spectrum
    Warlock's are fine and pretty idiot proof. Even if they just sit back and go PEW they'll do at least ok. SOulknives on the other hand...

    Either go find one of the Remakes on the Forum, or use the PF one, cuz the base one is a mess.
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  19. - Top - End - #19
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: I am a bit worried about this party

    Quote Originally Posted by Trandir View Post
    I believe that building the character is a fun process and it's rewarding to find the best way to either make a concept come to life or to perform a specific task.

    As such if one of my players feels lagging behind, is not happy with their PC, or simply made some bad choices I have no problem in introducing some turbo NPC magic to allow a full retrain or swap PCs entirely.

    I, however, would like to avoid getting to that point if it's possible.
    And there is wisdom in that.

    However, no Playgrounder would have expected the epic Wizard Quertus to be the weak link in his party. And it's not because he's weak (he isn't), it's because he's tactically inept (and his preferred party is just generally highly adapt).

    Further, it's not a *problem* that, over the course of 10 levels, Quertus could have been replaced with a bag of flour - it doesn't need to be *fixed*, because it's not something I'm unhappy with.

    Whereas another of my characters - whom my fellow players considered OP - managed to accomplish *exactly nothing* in the game. *That* was something that needed to be fixed (and that group lacked the capacity to comprehend that fact).

    So… I'm not sure what the wisest course of action is. Maybe talk to your players about your concerns of potential unbalance, and ask their opinions?

    But like I said before, don't be surprised if the 4th level Wizard not only isn't OP, but actually is "in the corner of sadness" (not sure what that means, but someone just said it, so I'm going with it). Because Schrödinger / Playground Wizards aren't really a thing at actual gaming tables, and that d4 HP chassis and finite resources aren't much to write home about.

    To flip this around a lot, you pitched this as a silly game (or some such). For you to then get really worked up over balance concerns? That *probably* doesn't set the intended tone for the game. On the flip flipped side, while i would normally expect "character contribution capacity" to largely fall along player lines (ie, if I built the Cleric it'll likely underperform; if my brother built the soul knife, it'll likely be OP), when your pitch is for something zany, all such bets are off.

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    Default Re: I am a bit worried about this party

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    And there is wisdom in that.

    However, no Playgrounder would have expected the epic Wizard Quertus to be the weak link in his party. And it's not because he's weak (he isn't), it's because he's tactically inept (and his preferred party is just generally highly adapt).

    Further, it's not a *problem* that, over the course of 10 levels, Quertus could have been replaced with a bag of flour - it doesn't need to be *fixed*, because it's not something I'm unhappy with.
    The biggest problem, I think, is actually that Soulknife is the class most likely to disappoint the player in not living up to the image or fantasy he has for his character. A Cleric or Wizard can change what they are very quickly - if the spells you select aren't living up to their billing, you go find some that do. Warlock may be on the mechanically weaker side, but they're also very obvious about what they do - if you choose to be a Warlock, you do it because you want to use those 3 to 6 abilities over and over, and generally speaking those 3 to 6 abilities are pretty cool so you're happy, because you may struggle when they aren't too useful but you don't care because guys I can make a cloud of flesh-eating darkness or Disguise Self into a completely new outfit and appearance whenever I want!

    Soulknife is.. what? You pick it because you want to be a cool psychic-weapon wielding ninja? You have an image of Jedi or being Psylocke from the X-Men universe? Well, too bad, because the class mechanics don't actually support that. That's why there are so many remakes of Soulknife and suggestions to use one of them - not only because the Soulknife player may have problems performing mechanically, but because the image of a Soulknife is really cool and people want the mechanics to be neat too (You don't see anywhere near so many people trying to remake the Complete Warrior Samurai or the Soulborn and other similarly bad classes. They don't grab the imagination like the Soulknife.)

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    Default Re: I am a bit worried about this party

    That's the gist of it, yeah.

    A Wizard that doesn't live up to expectations is just an 8 hour rest and maybe a trek to the nearest large city away from completely changing their playstyle.

    A Soulknife that doesn't is just kind of bad forever.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: I am a bit worried about this party

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    To flip this around a lot, you pitched this as a silly game (or some such). For you to then get really worked up over balance concerns? That *probably* doesn't set the intended tone for the game. On the flip flipped side, while i would normally expect "character contribution capacity" to largely fall along player lines (ie, if I built the Cleric it'll likely underperform; if my brother built the soul knife, it'll likely be OP), when your pitch is for something zany, all such bets are off.
    And here might be the problem. I am not a very experienced DM and as such I will, soon or later, make monsters or create encounters that punch way higher than they should be and if they aren't well prepared they won't make it. The game admittedly doesn't have a very serious note (currently the party is trying to capture a bard serial killer that is threatening to ruin the city's music festival), but I still like the encounters and dungeons to be an appropriate challenge. We are playing d&d 3.5 after all and during the session 0 I was pretty clear that I would have not pulled any punches.

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: I am a bit worried about this party

    Problem: Soulknife is a "bad" class.

    Solution: Inform the player that the Soulknife class is known to be disappointing. Ask the player what they want out of the class. Ask them how they would like to proceed should the class disappoint.

    Quote Originally Posted by tyckspoon View Post
    A Cleric or Wizard can change what they are very quickly - if the spells you select aren't living up to their billing, you go find some that do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    A Wizard that doesn't live up to expectations is just an 8 hour rest and maybe a trek to the nearest large city away from completely changing their playstyle.
    By all means, explain how to re-select spells to make a poorly-built 4th level 3e Wizard into an RDPS / ADC unit.

    Personally, I find Wizard to be a rather disappointing class in that regard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trandir View Post
    And here might be the problem. I am not a very experienced DM and as such I will, soon or later, make monsters or create encounters that punch way higher than they should be and if they aren't well prepared they won't make it. The game admittedly doesn't have a very serious note (currently the party is trying to capture a bard serial killer that is threatening to ruin the city's music festival), but I still like the encounters and dungeons to be an appropriate challenge. We are playing d&d 3.5 after all and during the session 0 I was pretty clear that I would have not pulled any punches.
    Well, this is a solvable problem: create a sample party. Run them through the encounters before you run the party through the module (write the encounters down, it's a "module" now, a static target for the PCs to hit). If the module is broken, change the module. Easy-peesie. If the party is too far off from the sample characters... well, this is why you do this *before* the PCs make their characters, and *show* the sample characters as part of Session 0, to set expectations.
    Last edited by Quertus; 2020-10-25 at 06:44 AM.

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