[3.5] Theoretical: 5/10 Casting PrCs

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Personally, I'd still take 4 levels of Dread Witch. OTOH, it's already a 4/5 prestige class (and a pretty good one even at that cost), so not necessarily in the spirit of the thread.

I think I've heard it said that Rainbow Servant is still (barely) worth taking if you go by the table instead of the text (making it 6/10), at least for a Warmage. That probably makes it a front-runner in a world where all PrCs are 5/10.

[weckar]

If all choices are suboptimal, it may cause people to choose for flavor more... I am personally a big fan of the geometer, for example.

[Glimbur]

Hot take: make all base classes only 10 levels long. After that, you pick up more flavor/focus/etc with a PrC. You would need some options that you don't deliberately have to build toward, and it changes other things too. But it's an interesting idea. Feels a lot like 4E and its class paths.

On thread topic, I wouldn't support making all PrC's half casting at best. It is a useful toggle to use to (attempt to) balance other abilities, it would require a lot of work to make all PrC's worthwhile at half casting. Seems easier to have the 'how much casting' lever so you can keep more of the original class features.

Putting the two together though... you would fall behind on your higher level spells which would be frustrating. Some monsters kind of assume certain spell levels, either to heal their effects or to effectively engage with them. But if everyone slows down from 11 to 20 with spells gained, and are forced to get something else too... that might be fun for some tables. Lower power than just getting spells 'on schedule' but that might be ok.

[Telonius]

If we're just resetting all casting classes to 5/10, there are a small number of less-than 5/10 casting prestige classes that would actually get an increase in power from this. Master of Masks, a couple of the "Thrall of..." classes from BoVD.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If we're just resetting all casting classes to 5/10, there are a small number of less-than 5/10 casting prestige classes that would actually get an increase in power from this. Master of Masks, a couple of the "Thrall of..." classes from BoVD.

I wouldn't mind if arcane archer had 5/10 casting. At least then it would actually gain SOME. Oh, and get rid of that stupid "elf only" prereq. Is it impossible for any race other than elves to be archers? I mean, archery is stupidly feat-intensive, and humans actually gain a bonus feat.

[edit] Oh, and how about PrCs that grant their own casting? Most of them are already pretty low-tier as far as casters go (with some obvious exceptions), so nerfing them seems problematic.

[NigelWalmsley]

It's interesting to me specifically, because in a world where there is a choice so blindingly obviously better than all the rest, and makes all other choices irrelevant it feels homogeneous and boring.

Isn't that exactly the world you're advocating for? Empirically, people do not take half casting PrCs. If half casting PrCs were the only option, you wouldn't see some great flowering of Green Star Adepts and Mindbenders, people would just all play Wizard 20s or Druid 20s or Cleric 20s.

it's generally held that the T1 classes are some of the best to play for their power, playing them only would make the potential character pool much smaller and less interesting.

Sure. Which is why other classes should be better. I would love for Barbarians and Hexblades to be reasonable things for people to be. But you cannot get there by screwing around with PrCs.

I will expand the idea of a PrC making a player trade raw power for a narrower scope of power is interesting, not just because it provides an interesting build challenge, but that if nothing else, it also for players in a group to find a reason to work together, and makeup their shortcomings.

Again, a PrC that gives you +10 to X and a PrC that gives you +5 to X and -5 to not-X have the same effect in this respect. But people take the former and do not take the latter. We have run the experiment you propose, and it does not give the results you want.

There isn't, though. You're not normally making a binary choice between SCM and a dead level of your base class; the opportunity cost of taking this level in this PrC is that you're not taking any other class level you're qualified for.

Yes, exactly.

But since they generally don't, there is a blindingly obviously better choice in most situations involving lost spellcaster levels: don't lose the spellcaster level.

Again, exactly. There is another thing you can do: have PrCs work like the Archmage where you lose spell slots for specific abilities. That's balanced, but it's a huge pain to actually implement. By far the easiest thing to do is just make all PrCs full casting. That does make casters slightly better, but the margin by which it makes them stronger is so much smaller than the degree to which they are already better than non-casters doesn't really effect the rest of the system.

I think I've heard it said that Rainbow Servant is still (barely) worth taking if you go by the table instead of the text (making it 6/10), at least for a Warmage. That probably makes it a front-runner in a world where all PrCs are 5/10.

The Rainbow Servant is weird, because even Text Rainbow Servant is only really worth it if you expect to hit 16th level, and if you do it's mandatory. Levels 1-9 give you a couple of Prestige Domains that are pretty mediocre, while 10 turns you into the most versatile spellcaster in the world. Making it partial casting makes it even worse while you're slogging through the levels where the big payoff is "two kinds of Magic Circle". I am extremely skeptical of the claims that Table Rainbow Servant is even a lateral move (particularly for Beguilers and Dread Necromancers, as they get spells that are actually good).

If all choices are suboptimal, it may cause people to choose for flavor more... I am personally a big fan of the geometer, for example.

All choices aren't suboptimal. Continuing to take base class levels is just as good as it is now, meaning that there's a huge relative swing towards doing that. Now, instead of being punished for flavor if you happen to like a class WotC punched in the junk (like Acolyte of the Skin) but being fine if you happen to like a class they did not (like Master Specialist), you're punched in the junk if you like any flavor at all. I agree that putting all the PrCs on even footing increases the chance people will choose based on flavor, but the way to do that is making them all full casting.

[Doctor Despair]

Ur-Priest at least would still get 5th level spells. As would Divine Crusader. Everyone else would be stuck with level 3s, wouldn't they?

Well, let's see. Spontaneous casters with Versatile Spellcaster would still be able to reach up one level of spell higher, providing they have spells known at that level, such as with the Bloodline series of feats.

Sublime Chord is another advanced progression caster, like Ur Priest, but it STARTS at 4ths and 5ths, so it would 7ths, or technically 8ths with Versatile Spellcaster, with 5/10 progression

I suppose that means you could do something like... Bard 3 with a greater bloodline (max skill = 9), infect yourself with a strain of lycantropy that grants at least 3 hitdie (max skill = 12), take one more level in bard (max skill = 13), then take a level in Sublime Chord and cure the lycantropy. That leaves you as an ECL5 with 5ths (four levels ahead of wizard), and you'd keep roughly in line with a wizard as you progress with a 10-level PrC, getting 6ths at ecl 9 (4/10 prc levels), 7ths at ecl 13 (8/10 prc levels), and then still hitting 9ths at level 18 if we swap back to Sublime Chord levels at the end. Actually, that leaves room for two levels in a PrC, technically, if we wanted to delay our 9ths until level 20, ... How to abuse/break the system isn't really in the topic of the OP though.

[Quertus]

Those that are worth taking 1-2 levels in (like Tainted Sorcerer) would still be worth it. Beholder Mage would be funny. I wouldn't bother with anything else (not that I do anyway - I just write ”Wizard 42” on my sheet, and call it a day).

Honestly, I wasn't expecting people to take such nerfed prestige classes - nobody takes a LA +5 race on a caster, right? Why would they do so now?

[ExLibrisMortis]

I think Spelldancer hasn't been mentioned yet, so I'll just leave that as another class still worth taking. But yeah, as abundantly made clear by most everyone else, casting PrCs would mostly die. Especially the "fun and reasonable" classes like Unseen Seer or Church Inquisitor or Paragnostic Apostle.

[rel]

Hot take: make all base classes only 10 levels long.

I like this modification

[Thunder999]

I could see 6 levels of a half casting PrC working, since you still get 9th, but I don't think I could actually play it, because actually playing through the levels where you're behind will not be fun.

[NigelWalmsley]

Hot take: make all base classes only 10 levels long. After that, you pick up more flavor/focus/etc with a PrC. You would need some options that you don't deliberately have to build toward, and it changes other things too. But it's an interesting idea. Feels a lot like 4E and its class paths.

Paragon Paths (and Epic Destinies) was one of the ideas 4e had that was actually really good. It (potentially) completely eliminates the class balance issues that have historically plagued D&D. You no longer have to figure out what the hell a Fighter does when the party is fighting Demon Princes and undead gods (or even "very large dragons"), because anyone playing at that level is a Witch Queen or Thunderlord or Celestial Beacon. 4e, of course, screwed itself over by tying Paragon Paths to base classes and making the Fighter ones things like "Pit Fighter". But in principle the system is a perfect solve for a lot of the problems people have had with the game.

Putting the two together though... you would fall behind on your higher level spells which would be frustrating.

It's actually worse than that, because as far as I can tell PrCs are still supposed to be optional in this setup. So you get two different groups of people, both of whom are frustrated with their characters and resent each other. Some people take a PrC, and lose overall power for specialization and theme. Some people don't take a PrC, and keep their power in exchange for being incredibly generic. The first group resents the second because their characters are more powerful and hog the spotlight. The second group resents the first because their characters are more interesting and fit better with whatever vision it is the players have for them.

But yeah, as abundantly made clear by most everyone else, casting PrCs would mostly die. Especially the "fun and reasonable" classes like Unseen Seer or Church Inquisitor or Paragnostic Apostle.

I could see 6 levels of a half casting PrC working, since you still get 9th, but I don't think I could actually play it, because actually playing through the levels where you're behind will not be fun.

That pretty much sums it up. It makes PrCs miserable to play, and it makes the healthy PrCs that people take now and we are happy about worthless.

[Jervis]

They become like Green Spice Addict and no one uses them for all 10 levels. Seriously there's no situation where those class features are worth taking the casting loss save for situations like PrC paladin where you just want a better paladin.

[Lans]

Eunach Warlock works pretty good with this. The earliest entry is 10th, but I would wait 1 level so you get an empowered 6th level spell at level 12. Your a spell level behind till you catch up at levels 16 and 20, where I think you should be able to get some good use out of a maximized, empowered greater shadow conjurations that you can spam.

[Wildstag]

Which PrCs would still be worthwhile, mechanically?

Arguing the RAW of this question and not the RAI, for the fun of it. You mentioned "no more 9/10th", but would they default to 5/10? In that case, most of these would lose less while gaining the same amount of features. Or would they be reduced to a proportional amount of caster progression (say, 3/10 for Rainbow Servant)? That would make many far worse.

I'd say that a few Cleric PrCs are still good, but I'm honestly just not the biggest fan of their 9th level spells. Since you'd still be able to get your 8th level spells, it'd be good in my book. Classes such as Radiant Servant of Pelor would still be good, but would suffer from the inability to reach Empowered and Maximized Heal, Mass.

Also, I would think this would make the Blighter, and Divine Crusader pretty good, as you could PrC and still get 9th level spells, since those classes have their own unique spell progression. It is weird thinking that the Divine Crusader might actually be a slightly higher priority option, but this is the hypothetical world we live in...

Lastly, Hospitalers (7/10), Rainbow Servant (6/10), Sacred Fist (8/10), and Seekers of the Misty Isle (technically/maybe 8/10) would be on par with the rest of the casting PrCs, and thus would probably see more use just because they still gain as much as they ever did but with only slightly reduced casting progression. The Hospitaler would still be a cleric PrC with 8th level spell access and bonus combat feats.

P.S. The Shining Blades of Heironeous would still be sitting in the corner with their dunce caps on. Nothing will change that.