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    Default What skill/tool/attribute to weave baskets?

    A patron god of a homebrew race I'm working on is responsible for many crafts, including explicitly creating a basket weaving technique that requires the craftsperson to be fully submerged in water. How would you go about representing basket weaving proficiency?
    Last edited by Luccan; 2020-10-22 at 08:40 PM.
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    Default Re: What skill/tool/attribute to weave baskets?

    It requires exerting one's will onto the water in order to force the submersed reeds to bend into the shape you want them to take, so it'd be a Charisma check.

    You need basketweaver's tools, which are usually carried in a special waterproof case called a 'basket case'.
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    Default Re: What skill/tool/attribute to weave baskets?

    This strikes me as a tool proficiency, though in this case I don't know if any tools would actually be involved. I'd probably broaden it a bit to include a number of DIY type projects. Actually, I could totally see adding a Crafting skill that covers general DIY crafting, not as a profession, but more as a hobby, so it's less focused. Crafting as a skill would then allow you to make various knickknacks using simple tools and materials (improvising, as it were), but any professional grade item would require a tool proficiency.

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    Default Re: What skill/tool/attribute to weave baskets?

    In seriousness it'd require Weaver's Tools (costs 1 gp/weighs 5 lb.) and would probably be either a Dexterity check or an Intelligence check. There wouldn't be a specific skill associated with it; for example, Forgery is now 'make an Intelligence check and add your proficiency bonus if you have forger's tools'.
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    Default Re: What skill/tool/attribute to weave baskets?

    Clearly, you need a Sea Elf tutor. They have courses available for a fee. No one would take them, except they are prerequisites for the actually useful elemental courses.
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    Default Re: What skill/tool/attribute to weave baskets?

    I'd make it a Sleight of Hand (Wisdom) check. Sleight of Hand describes deft work with the hands, while the Wisdom aspect comes from the practical learned aspect of it and the way that basket weaving can often hold a sense of culture and ancestry in rural communities.

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    Default Re: What skill/tool/attribute to weave baskets?

    Quote Originally Posted by Edea View Post
    In seriousness it'd require Weaver's Tools (costs 1 gp/weighs 5 lb.) and would probably be either a Dexterity check or an Intelligence check. There wouldn't be a specific skill associated with it; for example, Forgery is now 'make an Intelligence check and add your proficiency bonus if you have forger's tools'.
    Aren't weaver's tools for making items of cloth? Also, I kind of feel like basket weaving is probably done by hand, not with a tool? About the only thing that might transfer is understanding how weaves work and thus how to weave the reeds together to create the shape of basket you want with the right structural integrity.

    This would probably be either a straight ability check (no proficiency), a homebrew "tool" proficiency, a homebrew skill proficiency, or DM fiat proficiency (they get proficiency just because the DM says so).

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    Default Re: What skill/tool/attribute to weave baskets?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greywander View Post
    Aren't weaver's tools for making items of cloth? Also, I kind of feel like basket weaving is probably done by hand, not with a tool? About the only thing that might transfer is understanding how weaves work and thus how to weave the reeds together to create the shape of basket you want with the right structural integrity.

    This would probably be either a straight ability check (no proficiency), a homebrew "tool" proficiency, a homebrew skill proficiency, or DM fiat proficiency (they get proficiency just because the DM says so).
    Doesn't really specify; I don't really see a problem with using it for that purpose. Definitely wouldn't make a skill specific to it.
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    Default Re: What skill/tool/attribute to weave baskets?

    Yeah RAW there is no check for crafting. You just make 5gp progress /day /proficient crafter. By strict RAW, you can only make 1 item per day, and everything takes 8hrs at least, but I think any reasonable DM should allow pro-rating. If a basket is 5cp, I'd let you make 100 a day, about 5 minutes per basket.

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    Default Re: What skill/tool/attribute to weave baskets?

    I wasn't really looking to introduce a new skill or tool necessarily, mostly looking for input on what others thought would work. I didn't immediately leap on Weaver's Tools for reasons similar to what Greywander brought up. I wanted to give something that seemed equal to a tool proficiency, since I plan on offering a couple others as alternatives. Since this is really just for a racial ribbon ability, I guess it doesn't matter too much. Thanks for the input!
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    Default Re: What skill/tool/attribute to weave baskets?

    Dexterity (Performance) perhaps.
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    Default Re: What skill/tool/attribute to weave baskets?

    Quote Originally Posted by Luccan View Post
    I wasn't really looking to introduce a new skill or tool necessarily, mostly looking for input on what others thought would work. I didn't immediately leap on Weaver's Tools for reasons similar to what Greywander brought up. I wanted to give something that seemed equal to a tool proficiency, since I plan on offering a couple others as alternatives. Since this is really just for a racial ribbon ability, I guess it doesn't matter too much. Thanks for the input!
    In that case, I'd just give them a racial trait that specifically says they get to add their proficiency bonus when weaving baskets. You don't need to call out a specific tool or skill. It would be kind of similar to, say, the dwarf's Stonecunning, but without the reference to a specific skill (History, in the case of Stonecunning).

    It is kind of a weird, niche case. I think something like a generic Crafting skill would work well for this reason; skills are already fairly broad and often a catch-all if something else doesn't apply. The skill system also has a few holes that, while they won't come up often, will leave you wondering which skill to apply, if any. The good news is that the modular nature of the d20 system makes it easy to add new proficiencies to the game. So if you notice a hole, you can easily plug it up. Another skill that I think could be added is a Business skill, covering everything from appraising item value, negotiating better deals, bookkeeping and accounting, to understanding economic systems, and anything else you might think would be covered under a business/banking skill.

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    Default Re: What skill/tool/attribute to weave baskets?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greywander View Post
    In that case, I'd just give them a racial trait that specifically says they get to add their proficiency bonus when weaving baskets. You don't need to call out a specific tool or skill. It would be kind of similar to, say, the dwarf's Stonecunning, but without the reference to a specific skill (History, in the case of Stonecunning).

    It is kind of a weird, niche case. I think something like a generic Crafting skill would work well for this reason; skills are already fairly broad and often a catch-all if something else doesn't apply. The skill system also has a few holes that, while they won't come up often, will leave you wondering which skill to apply, if any. The good news is that the modular nature of the d20 system makes it easy to add new proficiencies to the game. So if you notice a hole, you can easily plug it up. Another skill that I think could be added is a Business skill, covering everything from appraising item value, negotiating better deals, bookkeeping and accounting, to understanding economic systems, and anything else you might think would be covered under a business/banking skill.
    I may have been overly specific with baskets, but something like Stonecunning for simple crafts might make sense. I like the idea of a general Crafting skill for simple things not covered by tools, but the niches covered by tools makes it seem kinda... pointless? Baskets probably are the most useful thing I can think of not currently covered by a tool. It's not something I can see players making use of often, especially if it's not a bonus on their race or class. Which is why something like Stonecunning makes more sense. I don't think I've really seen it used this edition, but if it did come up it would be a very dwarf-y thing to use. So Craftcunning works... actually I like this a lot. The race I'm sticking this on is also pretty curious about the world and makes a fair number of river and sea traders. The ability to recognize the origins of those crafts related to their goddess, even if they come from far away lands, seems right.
    Last edited by Luccan; 2020-10-24 at 12:16 AM.
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    Default Re: What skill/tool/attribute to weave baskets?

    Quote Originally Posted by Luccan View Post
    Baskets probably are the most useful thing I can think of not currently covered by a tool. It's not something I can see players making use of often, especially if it's not a bonus on their race or class.
    Fair warning: in 3.5 edition basket weaving was/is sort of a meme skill for the fabricate spell. You could use it to make: baskets, hats, hutd, boats, backpacks, furniture, cages etc out of basically any material. Can you weave clothing? Probably. Can I use the fabricate spell to therfore weave stone or iron clothing? I suppose...


    Mostly it would only become a problem because you could substitute one craft for another at some penalties which meant weaving was super versatile. It's not likely to be a problem in 5th edition as I have never seen anyone ranting about it recently as the fabricate spell has been toned down significantly.
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    Default Re: What skill/tool/attribute to weave baskets?

    I believed it was more for joking about wizards being so op they did not need to take any useful skills and could instead take "underwater basketweaving" and other skills that are rarely ever useful in a campaign.
    Then there was a thread about skipping spell-casting and just maximising underwater basketweaving as a wizard without spells.
    Last edited by noob; 2020-10-24 at 05:45 AM.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: What skill/tool/attribute to weave baskets?

    Not tools, that's for sure, basket weaving needs a knife and that's pretty much it. The patterns of it are pretty simple once you get used to it a bit, and the real danger is that of you zoning out while weaving because it's repetitive as can be - but that's the case for a lot of skills.

    In the end, I'd say it's dexterity, because you need to weave thin wooden sticks that can and will crack if you tug too much. The whole underwater bit could point us to CON, but unless you need to sstay submerged for arbitrarily large amount fo time, you can solve that trivially by coming up for air more.
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    Default Re: What skill/tool/attribute to weave baskets?

    I think it would be a tool proficiency. But my thought on tool proficiencies is that they can be as broad or as narrow as needed, are invented as needed, and should be easy enough to obtain outside of initial character creation. If a character is supposed to be skilled in basket weaving...then they are proficient in it. If they aren't but spend downtime learning it...then they gain proficiency. If it's only underwater that they know how to do it...then they are proficient in underwater basket weaving. If they know all sorts of weaving...then weaving proficiency. I guess what I'm saying is don't sweat it and just give proficiency in the fluffy stuff when it's appropriate because it isn't going to break a game either way.

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    Default Re: What skill/tool/attribute to weave baskets?

    The Lizardfolk get a crafting feature, you could take inspiration from it.

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    Default Re: What skill/tool/attribute to weave baskets?

    In the real world, basketweaving requires no tools at all. You could send me naked into a North American temperate forest in the morning, and by evening I would have a functional and even somewhat ornamental basket for you. And the restriction on biome is just because that's where I'm sufficiently familiar with the flora; someone familiar with some other biome could probably do the same in anything but tundra or desert.

    But in the framework of 5e, crafting is usually covered under a tool proficiency. You could just say that it's proficiency in "basketweaving tools", and leave it vague just what exactly those tools consist of. Or if that bothers you, then you could make it a special skill that's as easy to learn as a tool proficiency (the game makes it easier to acquire new tool proficiencies than new skills), but without actually requiring tools: The gamist result would be the same, while matching in a simulationist sense, at the expense of a slightly more complicated rule.
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    Default Re: What skill/tool/attribute to weave baskets?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    In the real world, basketweaving requires no tools at all. You could send me naked into a North American temperate forest in the morning, and by evening I would have a functional and even somewhat ornamental basket for you. And the restriction on biome is just because that's where I'm sufficiently familiar with the flora; someone familiar with some other biome could probably do the same in anything but tundra or desert.

    But in the framework of 5e, crafting is usually covered under a tool proficiency. You could just say that it's proficiency in "basketweaving tools", and leave it vague just what exactly those tools consist of. Or if that bothers you, then you could make it a special skill that's as easy to learn as a tool proficiency (the game makes it easier to acquire new tool proficiencies than new skills), but without actually requiring tools: The gamist result would be the same, while matching in a simulationist sense, at the expense of a slightly more complicated rule.
    maybe what you have is "proficiency in basket-weaver hands"

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    Default Re: What skill/tool/attribute to weave baskets?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    In the real world, basketweaving requires no tools at all. You could send me naked into a North American temperate forest in the morning, and by evening I would have a functional and even somewhat ornamental basket for you. And the restriction on biome is just because that's where I'm sufficiently familiar with the flora; someone familiar with some other biome could probably do the same in anything but tundra or desert.

    But in the framework of 5e, crafting is usually covered under a tool proficiency. You could just say that it's proficiency in "basketweaving tools", and leave it vague just what exactly those tools consist of. Or if that bothers you, then you could make it a special skill that's as easy to learn as a tool proficiency (the game makes it easier to acquire new tool proficiencies than new skills), but without actually requiring tools: The gamist result would be the same, while matching in a simulationist sense, at the expense of a slightly more complicated rule.
    Ok, so maybe Dexterity (Survival) or Dexterity (Nature)?
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    Default Re: What skill/tool/attribute to weave baskets?

    I'd say just cover it as maybe something along the lines on Dexterity (Handcrafts) proficiency and just let it cover anything put together primarily by direct physical manipulation with your body
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    Default Re: What skill/tool/attribute to weave baskets?

    Quote Originally Posted by EggKookoo View Post
    Ok, so maybe Dexterity (Survival)
    That's how I'd do it. Simpler to roll off of a skill already on the sheet.
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    Default Re: What skill/tool/attribute to weave baskets?

    Why roll at all? Unless there's a life-or-death situation wherein immediate and professional basket-weaving is needed to save the day, it seems a bit mundane.
    Last edited by Theodoric; 2020-10-24 at 11:40 AM.

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    Default Re: What skill/tool/attribute to weave baskets?

    Quote Originally Posted by Theodoric View Post
    Why roll at all? Unless there's a life-or-death situation wherein immediate and professional basket-weaving is needed to save the day, it seems a bit mundane.
    That's a problem with most artisans tools.

    Or it was, until XGtE changed the rules for tool proficiencies and allowed them to apply to checks for knowledge related to the craft they are used in. That added a lot of use for a bunch of them. Especially Masons & Carpenters IMX. Before XTGe, they were explicitly only used when doing something (crafting) with the tools.

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    Default Re: What skill/tool/attribute to weave baskets?

    Quote Originally Posted by Theodoric View Post
    Why roll at all? Unless there's a life-or-death situation wherein immediate and professional basket-weaving is needed to save the day, it seems a bit mundane.
    I'd have the roll for quality, not success.

    On the other hand if I were the DM and organized a group and people to play then I wouldn't let them just play basket weaving simulator. A peaceful life is not a part of the PCs destiny, if they even try the fates will intervene.
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    Default Re: What skill/tool/attribute to weave baskets?

    "I am she who weaves in the water; the currents are mine, the reeds are mine: the world is mine for the shaping. I open my hands: there is a basket between them. I turn it. It opens. Its maw points towards you. Come, then, and face me thou weak world-devouring god: you shall see what a basket weaver may do!"
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    Last edited by solidork; 2020-10-24 at 01:06 PM.

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    Default Re: What skill/tool/attribute to weave baskets?

    Obviously only a bard who majored in underwater basket weaving at her bardic college could do this.

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    Default Re: What skill/tool/attribute to weave baskets?

    Weaving a basket requires patience and attention to detail, more than manual dexterity. I've woven a basket before, and I am uncoordinated as hell.

    So...there's a solid argument for a Wisdom check...

    Quote Originally Posted by Greywander View Post
    Aren't weaver's tools for making items of cloth? Also, I kind of feel like basket weaving is probably done by hand, not with a tool? About the only thing that might transfer is understanding how weaves work and thus how to weave the reeds together to create the shape of basket you want with the right structural integrity.
    Weaving things out of cloth requires a LOOM. Which is an enormous, stationary "tool" (practically furniture), which certainly weighs more than 5 lbs.
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    Default Re: What skill/tool/attribute to weave baskets?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedMage125 View Post
    Weaving things out of cloth requires a LOOM. Which is an enormous, stationary "tool" (practically furniture), which certainly weighs more than 5 lbs.
    WEAVER'S TOOLS
    Weaver's tools allow you to create cloth and tailor it into articles of clothing.
    Components. Weaver's tools include thread, needles, and scraps of cloth. You know how to work a loom, but such equipment is too large to transport.

    XTGe 85

    Looks like it's mostly useful for repairs and tailoring. But making a cloth "basket" (sack?) or other small item out of scraps should be possible

    A far more important question is if making a handbag is weavers or leatherworkers.

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