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2020-10-24, 05:26 AM (ISO 8601)Pixie in the Playground
- Join Date
- Nov 2018
Build Ideas for Blaster: AOE/multi-target Mage
Please share any ideas/tools not covered here. The goal of the builds is to be good at AOE damage/multi-target and damage in general with spells, generally most concerned with the first 10 levels.
I know generally not best roll for mages in 5e BUT, I wanted to see what there is, how good could you make something. Of course there are great single target builds with sorlock(agonizing blast,hex,quicken,ect) separate builds though
Spoiler: And new BSJim’s magic missile/scorching ray/Steel Wind Strike and spirit shroud; spirit shroud won’t be official in its current form.
Spoiler: Not abusing abandoned UA
I've seen very powerful builds that used UA, such as the Phoenix sorc, or Undying light warlock that let you add your charisma modifier to fire damage rolls with only 1 level dip, which can be very good with green-flame blade and scorching ray, or even fireball and others. All these UA those have been abandoned though as they were just too good. Spirit shroud will be deemed too good as well.
List the tools first, then discus.
Classes:
Sorcerer-
Spoiler: Flexible CastingCan convert sorcery points to spell slots, and spell slots to sorcery points for more potential spell slots or more metamagic uses if needed.
Spoiler: Careful SpellWhen you cast a spell that forces other creatures to make a saving throw, you can protect some of those creatures from the spell's full force. To do so, you spend 1 sorcery point and choose a number of those creatures up to your Charisma modifier (minimum of one creature). A chosen creature automatically succeeds on its saving throw against the spell.
Spoiler: Empowered SpellWhen you roll damage for a spell, you can spend 1 sorcery point to reroll a number of the damage dice up to your Charisma modifier (minimum of one). You must use the new rolls.
You can use Empowered Spell even if you have already used a different Metamagic option during the casting of the spell.
Spoiler: Twined SpellWhen you cast a spell that targets only one creature and doesn't have a range of self, you can spend a number of sorcery points equal to the spell's level to target a second creature in range with the same spell (1 sorcery point if the spell is a cantrip).
-Current UA-
Spoiler: Elemental SpellWhen you cast a spell that deals a type of damage from the following list, you can spend 1 sorcery point to change that damage type to one of the other listed types: acid, cold, fire, lightning, thunder.
Spoiler: Seeking SpellWhen you cast a spell that requires you to make a spell attack roll or that forces a target to make a Dexterity saving throw, you can spend 1 sorcery point to ignore the effects of half- and three-quarters cover against targets of the spell.
Wizard-
Spoiler: Arcane RecoveryYou have learned to regain some of your magical energy by studying your spellbook. Once per day when you finish a short rest, you can choose expended spell slots to recover. The spell slots can have a combined level that is equal to or less than half your wizard level (rounded up), and none of the slots can be 6th level or higher.
Warlock-
You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a short or long rest
Gets Hellish Rebuke
Fighter-
Constitution saving throw proficiency
L2 Action surge
Subclasses:
Draconic sorcerer-
Spoiler: L6 Elemental AffinityStarting at 6th level, when you cast a spell that deals damage of the type associated with your draconic ancestry, you can add your Charisma modifier to one damage roll of that spell. At the same time, you can spend 1 sorcery point to gain resistance to that damage type for 1 hour.
Pyromancer-
Spoiler: L1: Heart of FireAt 1st level, whenever you start casting a spell of 1st level or higher that deals fire damage, fiery magic erupts from you. This eruption causes creatures of your choice that you can see within 10 feet of you to take fire damage equal to half your sorcerer level (minimum of 1).
Spoiler: L6: Fire in the VeinsAt 6th level, you gain resistance to fire damage. In addition, spells you cast ignore resistance to fire damage.
Spoiler: L14: Pyromancer's FuryStarting at 14th level, when you are hit by a melee attack, you can use your reaction to deal fire damage to the attacker. The damage equals your sorcerer level, and ignores resistance to fire damage.
Spoiler: L18: Fiery SoulAt 18th level, you gain immunity to fire damage. In addition, any spell or effect you create ignores resistance to fire damage and treats immunity to fire damage as resistance to fire damage.
Evocation Wiz-
Spoiler: L2 Sculpt SpellsBeginning at 2nd level, you can create pockets of relative safety within the effects of your evocation spells. When you cast an evocation spell that affects other creatures that you can see, you can choose a number of them equal to 1 + the spell's level. The chosen creatures automatically succeed on their saving throws against the spell, and they take no damage if they would normally take half damage on a successful save.
Spoiler: L10: Empowered EvocationBeginning at 10th level, you can add your Intelligence modifier to one damage roll of any wizard evocation spell you cast.
Spoiler: L14: OverchannelStarting at 14th level, you can increase the power of your simpler spells. When you cast a wizard spell of 1st through 5th-level that deals damage, you can deal maximum damage with that spell.
The first time you do so, you suffer no adverse effect. If you use this feature again before you finish a long rest, you take 2d12 necrotic damage for each level of the spell, immediately after you cast it. Each time you use this feature again before finishing a long rest, the necrotic damage per spell level increases by 1d12. This damage ignores resistance and immunity.
Tempest domain cleric-
Spoiler: L1: Wrath of the StormAlso at 1st level, you can thunderously rebuke attackers. When a creature within 5 feet of you that you can see hits you with an attack, you can use your reaction to cause the creature to make a Dexterity saving throw. The creature takes 2d8 lightning or thunder damage (your choice) on a failed saving throw, and half as much damage on a successful one.
You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Wisdom modifier (a minimum of once). You regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.
Spoiler: L2: Cannel Divinity: Destructive WrathStarting at 2nd level, you can use your Channel Divinity to wield the power of the storm with unchecked ferocity.
When you roll lightning or thunder damage, you can use your Channel Divinity to deal maximum damage, instead of rolling.
Gets Call Lightning, LACKS Lightning Bolt
Zeal domain Cleric-
Spoiler: L2: Channel Divinity: Consuming FervorStarting at 2nd level, you can use your Channel Divinity to channel your zeal into unchecked ferocity.
When you roll fire or thunder damage, you can use your Channel Divinity to deal maximum damage instead of rolling.
L5: Gets Fireball
Light Domain Cleric-
Spoiler: L2: Channel Divinity: Radiance of the DawnStarting at 2nd level, you can use your Channel Divinity to harness sunlight, banishing darkness and dealing radiant damage to your foes.
As an action, you present your holy symbol, and any magical darkness within 30 feet of you is dispelled. Additionally, each hostile creature within 30 feet of you must make a Constitution saving throw. A creature takes radiant damage equal to 2d10 + your cleric level on a failed saving throw, and half as much damage on a successful one. A creature that has total cover from you is not affected.
Spoiler: L8: Potent SpellcastingStarting at 8th level, you add your Wisdom modifier to the damage you deal with any cleric cantrip.
Gets burning hands, flaming sphere, scorching ray, fireball, guardian of faith, wall of fire, flame strike
The Celestial Worklock-
Spoiler: L6 Radiant SoulStarting at 6th level, your link to the Celestial allows you to serve as a conduit for radiant energy. You have resistance to radiant damage, and when you cast a spell that deals radiant or fire damage, you can add your Charisma modifier to one radiant or fire damage roll of that spell against one of its targets.
Gets Flaming sphere, Gaurdian of Faith, and Wall of Fire
Feats:
Spoiler: Flames of PhlegethosYou learn to call on hellfire to serve your commands. You gain the following benefits:
Increase your Intelligence or Charisma by 1, to a maximum of 20.
When you roll fire damage for a spell you cast, you can reroll any roll of 1 on the fire damage dice, but you must use the new roll, even if it is another 1.
Whenever you cast a spell that deals fire damage, you can cause flames to wreathe you until the end of your next turn. The flames don't harm you or your possessions, and they shed bright light out to 30 feet and dim light for an additional 30 feet. While the flames are present, any creature within 5 feet of you that hits you with a melee attack takes 1d4 fire damage.
Spoiler: Elemental AdeptWhen you gain this feat, choose one of the following damage types: acid, cold, fire, lightning, or thunder.
Spells you cast ignore resistance to damage of the chosen type. In addition, when you roll damage for a spell you cast that deals damage of that type, you can treat any 1 on a damage die as a 2.
Spoiler: Metamagic Adept (Current UA)Prerequisite: Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature
You’ve learned how to exert your will on your
spells to alter how they function. You gain the
following benefits:
• You learn two Metamagic options of your
choice from the sorcerer class. You can use
only one Metamagic option on a spell when
you cast it, unless the option says otherwise.
Whenever you gain a level, you can replace one
of your Metamagic options with another one
from the sorcerer class.
• You gain 2 sorcery points to spend on
Metamagic (these points are added to any
sorcery points you have from another source
but can be used only on Metamagic). You
regain all spent sorcery points when you finish
a long rest.
Spoiler: Fey TouchedYour exposure to the Feywild or one of its
denizens has left a magical mark on you. You
gain the following benefits:
• Increase your Intelligence, Wisdom, or
Charisma score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
• You learn the misty step spell and one 1st-level
spell of your choice. The 1st-level spell must be
from the divination or enchantment school of
magic. You can cast each of these spells
without expending a spell slot. Once you cast
either of these spells in this way, you can’t cast
that spell in this way again until you finish a
long rest. You can also cast these spells using
spell slots you have of the appropriate level.
The spells’ spellcasting ability is the ability
increased by this feat.
Race:
Tiefling-
+2 Cha
can use featSpoiler: Flames of PhlegethosYou learn to call on hellfire to serve your commands. You gain the following benefits:
Increase your Intelligence or Charisma by 1, to a maximum of 20.
When you roll fire damage for a spell you cast, you can reroll any roll of 1 on the fire damage dice, but you must use the new roll, even if it is another 1.
Whenever you cast a spell that deals fire damage, you can cause flames to wreathe you until the end of your next turn. The flames don't harm you or your possessions, and they shed bright light out to 30 feet and dim light for an additional 30 feet. While the flames are present, any creature within 5 feet of you that hits you with a melee attack takes 1d4 fire damage.
Aasimar-
+2 Cha
Spoiler: Celestial ResistanceYou have resistance to necrotic damage and radiant damage.
Aasimar (Scourge)
+1 Con
Spoiler: Radiant ConsumptionStarting at 3rd level, you can use your action to unleash the divine energy within yourself, causing a searing light to radiate from you, pour out of your eyes and mouth, and threaten to char you.
Your transformation lasts for 1 minute or until you end it as a bonus action. During it, you shed bright light in a 10-foot radius and dim light for an additional 10 feet, and at the end of each of your turns, you and each creature within 10 feet of you take radiant damage equal to half your level (rounded up). In addition, once on each of your turns, you can deal extra radiant damage to one target when you deal damage to it with an attack or a spell. The extra radiant damage equals your level.
Once you use this trait, you can't use it again until you finish a long rest.
Changling-
+3 Cha
Dragonborn-
+1 Cha
Spoiler: Breath WeaponYou can use your action to exhale destructive energy. Your draconic ancestry determines the size, shape, and damage type of the exhalation.
When you use your breath weapon, each creature in the area of the exhalation must make a saving throw, the type of which is determined by your draconic ancestry. The DC for this saving throw equals 8 + your Constitution modifier + your proficiency bonus. A creature takes 2d6 damage on a failed save, and half as much damage on a successful one. The damage increases to 3d6 at 6th level, 4d6 at 11th level, and 5d6 at 16th level.
After you use your breath weapon, you can't use it again until you complete a short or long rest.
Spoiler: Damage ResistanceYou have resistance to the damage type associated with your draconic ancestry
Variant Human-
Extra Feat
Satyr-
+2 Cha, +1 Dex
Magic Resistance
Yuan-ti Pureblood-
+2 Cha, +1 Int
Magic Resistance
Backgrounds (Cheeky):
Spoiler: Rakdous CultistAccess to number of good fire spells not necessarily on classes lists like Hellish rebuke
Spoiler: Izzet EngineerAccess to Call lightning, great spell only available to druids
Spoiler: Gruul AnarchAccess to Destructive Wave, great spell only available to druids
The Spells:
-=Cantrips, Level 1=-
Green-Flame Blade-SpoilerGenerally great cantrip, 2 targets, combos well with Elemental Affinity, quicken spell, and the feats. Scales very well regardless of multiclass dips.
Hex & Hunter’s Mark-Spoilercombos with things that can do lots of attacks, can get Hex and Hunter’s Mark through fey touched feat(Active UA)
Jim’s Magic Missile-SpoilerMakes a tons of attacks, combos with hex, Hunter’s Mark, hexblade’s curse, anything that lets you reroll 1s on attack rolls or get advantage, or increase crit range; force damage harder to boost but is force damage.
-=Level 2=-
Dragon's Breath-SpoilerCombos with Find Familiar, only takes bonus action to casts once, then no actions/bonus actions, requires concentration, familiar can die (but owl can fly by at least)
Flaming Sphere-SpoilerStandout for bonus action source of damage, mileage on 1 spell slot, AoE, combos with Elemental Affinity, Destructive Wrath, and the feats, requires concentration
Scorching Ray-Spoilerlots of attacks, decent damage for L2 spell, combos with, hex, HM, hexblade’s curse, Elemental Affinity, Destructive Wrath, and the feats
Moon Beam-SpoilerSlot mileage, good AOE damage for L2, upcasts well, only for druids, radiant damage harder to boost
-=Level 3=-
Fireball-SpoilerStandout for damage potential at L3, many build ideas center around this spell. Combos with Elemental Affinity, Sculpt Spells, Destructive Wrath, and the feats.
Lighting Bolt-SpoilerSimilar to Fireball, less creatures hit typically, easier to avoid friendly fire, combos with Wrath of the Storm, Elemental Affinity, Sculpt Spells, and elemental adapt.
Call Lightning-SpoilerSlot Mileage, checks all the boxes for damage, limited to outside and Tempest Domain cleric, or Druid, combos with Wrath of the Storm, Elemental Affinity, Sculpt Spells, and elemental adapt.
Spirit Guardians-SpoilerMaybe best L3 spell in game; hard to find anything to combo with it, 5 Levels of Cleric hard to fit in as well.
Melf's Minute Meteors-SpoilerMileage on 1 spell slot, combos with Elemental Affinity, and the feats.
Pulse Wave-SpoilerOnly available to Chronurgy and Graviturgy Wizards, Graviturgy can pull up 15ft for +1d6 fall damage if they can fly over enemies +2d10 to one at L10 with Violent Attraction, or maybe just push off cliff.
-=Level 4=-
Wall of Fire-SpoilerSlot Mileage, decent AOE damage on cast, some battlefield control, combos with Elemental Affinity, Destructive Wrath, and the feats
Fire Shield-SpoilerSlot Mileage, no concentration, small damage, combos with Elemental Affinity and the feats
Storm Sphere-SpoilerSlot Mileage, lowish damage, small AOE, small battlefield control, harder to use effectively without Sculpt Spells, combos with Wrath of the Storm, Elemental Affinity, and elemental adept.
Shadow of Moil-SpoilerGreat if you want to make lots of attacks with advantage and/or need defense against attacks, small damage, combos with Elemental Affinity and the feats
Vitriolic Sphere-SpoilerSomewhat cousin to L4 fireball, does more total damage than L4 fireball if 35% fail save but a chunk comes after those creatures get their next turn, harder to combo acid damage but is different type
Blight -SpoilerSlightly more damage than L4 fireball, but most creatures have better con saves than dex saves so on average isn't more, good against bad con saving creatures if you can find any, necrotic damage is different type but one of the most resisted/immune after fire. Can't be changed with transmute spell. You can get it very ceekily with Orzhov Representative Background if allowed
-=Level 5=-
Hallow-SpoilerVery large AOE, doubles damage to a damage type, Combos with 1 particular damage type, other good battlefield control effects
Cone of Cold-SpoilerDecent AOE cold damage, combos with Elemental Affinity and the elemental adapt
Dawn-SpoilerSpell mileage, decent radiant damage, large AOE, can move 60ft a turn, hard to combo radiant damage
Destructive Wave-SpoilerNeed to take with magical secrets or cheeky background, can choose each target, decent damage of different types available, large AOE, knocks prone, you must be next to action
Maelstrom-Spoilerlow damage, great battlefield control, combos with nothing else here, needs other effects that hinder strength saving throws or movement to be good.
Steel Wind Strike-SpoilerDecent force damage, lots of specific targets and no friendly fire, hard to combo the force damage but good damage type.
Synaptic Static-SpoilerDecent AOE damage, good debuff, Ints saves are great, hard to combo the psychic damage but is good damage type.
Wall of Light-SpoilerSlot mileage, decent AOE damage, good debuff but con saves suck, hard to combo radiant damage.
-=Level 6=-
Chain Lighting-SpoilerDecent damage to multiple targets, no friendly fire, up casts decently well, combos with Wrath of the Storm, Elemental Affinity, and Elemental Adapt, Tempest clerics don't get it.
Freezing Sphere-SpoilerDecent cold damage, Huge AOE, combos against things in water
Gravity Fissure-SpoilerDecent force damage in a very long straight line, cons saves suck, force damage is hard to combo but is a good type.
Wall of Ice-SpoilerDecent cold damage, can avoid most friendly fire and target lots of enemies, can be good battlefield control
-=Notes=-
After L3 spells you don’t get much increase in damage level, the best after L3 imo are: Hallow (situationally), Steel Wind Strike, Synaptic Static, Chain lightning, and Wall of ice. None stand out for damage besides combing SteelWind Strike with Spirit Shroud.
Class dips that make sense are: L2 Tempest or Zeal cleric, L2 Evocation Wiz, L6 Dragon Sorc, L6 Pyro Sorc, L2 fighter
-=Attractive builds I’m seeing are=-
L5-6 Zeal cleric + L2 Evocation Wiz- Lots of fireballs and sculpt spells around allies, channel divinity to deal almost double damage on each cast, add in FoP and/or elemental adept feats. To continue beyond level: 1 more cerlic for channel extra divinity, 2 levels fighter for action surge, maybe want 5 Wiz for arcane recovery if using action surge.
L2 Zeal/Tempest Cleric + L6 Dragon Sorc- Most damage, channel divinity fireball and lighting bolt, extra damage from Dragon Sorc, Green-Flame Blade effective, friendly fire problem even with sculpt spells particularly with fireball (maybe allies can get shield master feat or same effect from other feature), add in FoP and/or elemental adept feats, FoP not as attractive with empower spell
L2-9 Light Cleric - Aasimar (scourge) or Tiefling are attractive race options, doesn't do anything exceptional well besides the L2 channel AOE blast at low levels, does a lot of things well though, resilient and strong all-round particularly at lower levels. Can throw in the feats. War caster makes sense particularly if going the Aasimar (scourge) route and more cantrip AoO at level 8 is good.
L5 Tempest Cleric - Peaks when Call lighting and Spirit Guardians come online and you can maybe get plate mail around then, Very robust options, high AC, War caster and/or resilient con feats make sense as you want to keep call lightning/SG up. Dragon Born for resistance to lightning or Variant human make sense. Lacking lighting bolt really hurts.
Pyromancer Sorc with Aasimar (scourge) or Tiefling- Very GLASS cannony. Go into the middle of the fray and deal damage to everything within 10ft of you. Hellish Rebuke and/or warcaster important for more spell attacks; best to get with Rakdos Cultist background if allowed, otherwise from race Tiefling/Tiefling (Asmodeus) or last resort magic initiate feat. War Caster is very attractive for more spells cast and the con saves or maybe using a shield while spell casting. Unless you need levels for L18 Pryo, 2 levels fighter potentially attractive for high level character for action surge and more spells cast, HP, and Cons saves/armor prof/shield prof if taken first for a high starting level one-shot, echo knight even viable to get in and out places you need to be to deal more damage/not die, and more AoO to cast spells with warcaster. Polearm Master feat maybe, for more AoO that are spells.Last edited by SpiderWaffle; 2021-03-06 at 05:39 AM.
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2020-10-24, 06:20 AM (ISO 8601)Dwarf in the Playground
- Join Date
- Sep 2020
Re: Build Ideas for Blaster: AOE/multi-target Mage
I would add the Light Cleric here as well. Their Channel Divinity is absolutely amazing at low levels and probably one of the best AoE by levels 2-4, although losing some value on higher levels, it’s still a cost effective way of causing AoE damage without consuming precious spells slots.
Another good point about Light Clerics is their expanded spell list which includes staples like Scorching Ray, Flaming Sphere and Fireball. There’s a huge potential in combining this blast spells with things like Spiritual Weapon and Spirits Guardian.
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2020-10-24, 07:21 AM (ISO 8601)Ettin in the Playground
- Join Date
- Apr 2019
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- Lower Menthis
Re: Build Ideas for Blaster: AOE/multi-target Mage
So here's my favorite blaster build. Draconic sorcerer with a 2 level dip in evocation wizard.
Take gold draconic sorcerer to 6. Take empowered metamagic for more damage. Take elemental adept fire for your feat.
Then add 2 levels of evoker for sculpt spells. This let's you drop your empowered, elemental affinity fireballs right on top of your party.
If you want, you could then add 1 level of Order cleric. Now when you sculpt your rogue out of your fireball, they can use their reaction to make an extra sneak attack. You can take this at level 1 if you want for the armor proficiency. It just bumps back the core features by a level.
This may come on too late for your level 10 limit, but it's pretty good from level 3-7 and then it's great from 8-10.
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2020-10-24, 09:15 AM (ISO 8601)Troll in the Playground
- Join Date
- May 2019
Re: Build Ideas for Blaster: AOE/multi-target Mage
I'd add that you can get Cha to fire damage from the Celestial Warlcok patron at 6th level as well, which let's you stack them with the Dagon Sorc's ability.
I'd probably go for something like V. Human (Elemental Affinity) Dragon Sorc 6/Celestiallock 6, you end up with +10 to your fire damage but the Warlock injects short rest slots so you can throw more leveled spells more often and Empower them to boot.For D&D 5e Builds, Tips, News and more see our Youtube Channel Dork Forge
Feel free to message for any build requests or challenges
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2020-10-24, 10:36 AM (ISO 8601)Ogre in the Playground
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- Northwest AR
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Re: Build Ideas for Blaster: AOE/multi-target Mage
RAW, this combo doesn't work. Fireball targets an area, not a specific creature. Voice of Command requires that the spell specifically target an ally, so wouldn't work with Fireball. Sculpt Spell only requires that the spell affects an ally, so therefore works with Fireball.
Originally Posted by Bobthewizard
If your DM sees it otherwise, then so be it.Last edited by RogueJK; 2020-10-24 at 10:38 AM.
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2020-10-24, 10:41 AM (ISO 8601)Ogre in the Playground
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Re: Build Ideas for Blaster: AOE/multi-target Mage
This would lag noticeably in power. You're a 12th level caster with only 3rd level spells, and not even any higher level slots with which to upcast, like you'd get with a multiclass of two traditional Spellcasting classes. (A 50/50 Spellcaster/Warlock split is basically never optimal.) Originally Posted by Dork_Forge
Other casters are tossing out 4th/5th/6th level spells, plus upcasting spells into higher level slots. Whereas you're doing +10 damage on a few of your 3rd and lower spells. So that means a handful of 8d6+10 Fireballs (avg 38 dmg), and a lot of 3d10+10 Fire Bolts.
For a quick comparison, just 2 levels of Warlock gets you Agonizing Blast, which by 12th character level is doing up to 3d10+15 damage per casting of Eldritch Blast, and likely doing more average damage over time since you have 3 beams with which to potentially hit, rather than Fire Bolt's all-or-nothing. And then you'd still have Draconic's Elemental Affinity, plus 4th/5th level Sorcerer spell slots, so you can cast quite a few Fireballs per day for 8d5+5 (avg 33 dmg), 9d6+5 (avg 36.5 dmg) or 10d6+5 (avg 40 dmg). Plus additional Spell Points. Plus you'd have access to additional 4th and 5th level fire damage spells, like Wall of Fire and Immolation, and other handy non-fire damage upper level spells like Animate Objects, Cloudkill, and Synaptic Static.Last edited by RogueJK; 2020-10-24 at 11:05 AM.
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2020-10-24, 11:20 AM (ISO 8601)Troll in the Playground
- Join Date
- May 2019
Re: Build Ideas for Blaster: AOE/multi-target Mage
I think you're giving this build the short end of the stick, to preface I don't care about spells like Animate Objects etc. the whole point is to build a blaster. Originally Posted by RogueJK
-You don't get EB both ways, it can be more damage, but you also need to make three successful attack rolls for that to happen, you have more chance to do some damage, but the damage minimum is also higher for the Firebolt equivalent.
-It's not the occasional Fireball, from character level 11 you start the day with five 3rd level slots and get two back every short rest. The benefit of Sorlock is the ability to spam spells of a certain level
-Upcasting a spell usually adds a die of damage, Fireball for example adds a d6 (average 3.5), the +10 is a little better than casting it with a 5th level slot
-You don't seem to take Empowered into account, or Twinned for Firebolt etc. (again, Warlock gives the flexibilty for more casting and more metamagic)
-Hellish Rebuke is pretty nice as a reaction on this build tooFor D&D 5e Builds, Tips, News and more see our Youtube Channel Dork Forge
Feel free to message for any build requests or challenges
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2020-10-24, 11:38 AM (ISO 8601)Ogre in the Playground
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Re: Build Ideas for Blaster: AOE/multi-target Mage
So in a normal day, the 6/6 Sorlock would have 7 or 9 3rd level slots in total. Originally Posted by Dork_Forge
The 10/2 Sorlock would have 8 3rd/4th/5th level slots per day. (With the flexibility of also using them for 4th and 5th level spells too if needed.)
So 6/6 doesn't seem to present a significant advantage in Total Fireballs Per Day, unless your DM is very generously letting you Short Rest 3+ times per day.
It's actually a little worse in this case, doing 2 less points of damage on average (38 for 8d6+10 vs 40 for 10d6+5). The 10/2 is still a Draconic Sorcerer, so still gets +5 to Fire spells.the +10 is a little better than casting it with a 5th level slot
Either a 6/6 Sorlock or a 10/2 Sorlock can Empower, so that's a wash. In fact, the upcasting 10/2 Sorlock could potentially get even more benefit out of it, since there's more dice involved.-You don't seem to take Empowered into account
Firebolt can be Twinned while Eldritch Blast cannot. But the Draconic and Celestial additional damage only applies to one damage roll per spell. A Twinned Fire Bolt is 1 spell, with 2 damage rolls.or Twinned for Firebolt etc.
Therefore a 6/6's Twinned Fire Bolt would be doing up to 3d10+10 against 1 target and 3d10 against the second target, for a total of 6d10+10. Whereas a Quickened Agonizing Eldritch Blast adds +5 to each of the 6 rays, so would be doing up to 6d10+30 against 1-6 targets, for 20 extra points of damage over Twinned Fire Bolt at the cost of 1 additional Point.
A second casting of Fire Bolt could be Quickened, for potentially 3x total Firebolts per round for up to 9d10+20 against 2-3 targets. That would just edge out 2x Agonizing Eldritch Blast castings per round in total damage, but can't be concentrated all on one target or spread out to up to 6 targets like EB, and it costs 1 additional Point over just Quickening EB.
And keep in mind, the 6/6 only has 6 Points per day, so could only get off two rounds of 3x Firebolts before it was out of Points and needed to burn Spell Slots to generate more. Whereas the 10/2 could get off five rounds of double-EBs.
More importantly, only a 10/2 Sorlock could have Twin, Quicken, and Empower. The 6/6 cannot, since the 6/6 only has 2 metamagic options. And as a Fireball blaster the 6/6 definitely wants Empower, so would have to choose between either Twin or Quicken and therefore couldn't get off 3x Firebolts per round anyway.
Yes. But still nice on a 10/2 as well.-Hellish Rebuke is pretty nice as a reaction on this build tooLast edited by RogueJK; 2020-10-24 at 12:23 PM.
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2020-10-24, 05:02 PM (ISO 8601)Ettin in the Playground
- Join Date
- Apr 2019
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- Lower Menthis
Re: Build Ideas for Blaster: AOE/multi-target Mage
Anyone caught in a fireball is a target. It specifically calls them targets. Originally Posted by RogueJK
"Each creature in a 20-foot radius must make a Dexterity saving throw. A target takes 8d6 fire damage on a failed save..."
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2020-10-24, 06:33 PM (ISO 8601)Pixie in the Playground
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Re: Build Ideas for Blaster: AOE/multi-target Mage
Jeremy Crawford has stated target==affect, so any AoE spell targets everything it affects, fire breathing targets the creature you cast it on AND everything in the AoE of damage, ect. Originally Posted by RogueJK
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2020-10-24, 07:49 PM (ISO 8601)Ettin in the Playground
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Re: Build Ideas for Blaster: AOE/multi-target Mage
The only problem with this is the Celestial Warlock ability specifically limits it to one roll to one target, so it is not nearly as effective for fireball. I think you'd be better off taking the extra levels in Sorcerer to get spells like sickening radiance and dawn earlier, but the level 3 recharging slots are nice and if you are going to 5, I could see going to 6. Originally Posted by Dork_Forge
If you are just going for the single target damage boost, I think you'd likely be better with one level of hexblade for hexblade's curse.
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2020-10-24, 08:01 PM (ISO 8601)Pixie in the Playground
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Re: Build Ideas for Blaster: AOE/multi-target Mage
Good points, I think both would need careful spell meta magic for fireball, you could take the new Feat to get two more meta-magic options, but you probably won't have 20 Charisma then. Originally Posted by RogueJK
If you went to 7 Warlock/6 Sorc you'd have a free casting of Polymorph with sculptor of flesh eldritch invocation, which would in effect give you 1 more fireball at this time, and your warlock spells would go to L4, this would close the gap on the fireball damage per typical day and maybe give a slight lead, but still lacking quicken or 20 char, unless you get to use an absurdly high char starting roll. I think your right that 2/10 would be better than 6/6, you'd have more versatility with L4&5 sorcerer spells too like polymorph and synaptic static. And for 7/6 vs 2/11, you'd get some very nice level 6 sorc spells options like chain lightning so that probably makes it better as well.Last edited by SpiderWaffle; 2020-10-24 at 11:15 PM.
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2020-10-24, 11:37 PM (ISO 8601)Barbarian in the Playground
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Re: Build Ideas for Blaster: AOE/multi-target Mage
I think I have something that is really weird but could be a lot of fun. Imagine a rogue who doesn't use Sneak attack, but has one hell of an alpha strike...
Wizard 1, Jim's Magic Missile as a spell
Wizard 2, War Mage
Wizard 3, Scorching ray
Wizard 4, ASI: Feat for Elven Accuracy (+1 intelligence...)
Sorcerer 1, Draconic Origin
Sorcerer 2, ...
Sorcerer 3, Quickened Spell, Elemental Spell (UA)
Rogue 1, Expertise, Sneak Attack
Rogue 2, Cunning Action
Rogue 3, Assassin (Only for Assassinate)
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Offense
+8 to hit with Scorching Ray's, or Jim's Magic Missiles.
-Continuos Advantage due to stealth expertise as a bonus action...early on you can use Quickened Spell for Stealth or disengage...
-1st round is all crits which is Jim's Magic Missiles as a 6th level spell for 30d4 = 75, or Scorching Ray for 24d6 = 84
-Other tricks are available such as invisible Dragons Breath using familiars while you hide or prep for blasts.
Defense
-Your defenses are going to be expertise stealth.
-Dragon Scales with a 16 dexterity for an AC of 16.
-And reaction to raise AC or saves as you wish...
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Advancement
Hexblade 1-2, gives you a lot more critical fishing for when you didn't get to sneak up on them and for round 2 and later...and more short rest spell slots...
Sorcerer 4-6, +2 ASI into Intelligence for more accuracy...and more spell slots...oh and of course Elemental Affinity for better Scorching Rays...
Wizard +5 levels: More spell slots...
Ambush Offense Totals: 189 with scorching ray & hex, 195 with Jim's Magic Missile and Hex...Last edited by Citadel97501; 2020-10-24 at 11:38 PM.
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2020-10-25, 10:27 AM (ISO 8601)Ogre in the Playground
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Re: Build Ideas for Blaster: AOE/multi-target Mage
Keep in mind than an Assassin's 1st round is only all crits if the enemy is Surprised. Just because you win Initiative and go first doesn't mean they're Surprised, though the Assassin's steath increases the chances of that being the case. Originally Posted by Citadel97501
Also, a Rogue 3/Wizard 4/Sorcerer 3 doesn't have 6th level slots. They only have 4th level slots.
If faced with more than one target, an upcast Twinned Chromatic Orb or Guiding Bolt (if Divine Soul Sorcerer) would be even better.
4th level Twinned Guiding Bolt critical = 28d6. That's an average of 98 points of damage (though it's 49 to 2x targets), plus both targets are now open to advantage on the next attack rolls against them, and it's radiant damage which is rarely resisted.
4th level Twinned Chromatic Orb critical = 20d8. That's an average of 90 points of damage (though it's 45 to 2x targets). Plus you can swap the damage to whatever element best fits the enemy's resistances/vulnerabilities without needing to apply the UA Elemental Spell metamagic.
A 4th level Scorching Ray critical is 20d6, an average of 70 damage. A 4th level Jim's Magic Missile critical is 30d4, an average of 75. But those can be focused on one single target.
Even a 4th level Twinned Acid Arrow just outdamages Jim's Magic Missile against more than 1 target, doing 24d4 on the initial critical hit + another 8d4 the next turn, for 32d4 damage total, averaging 80 points of damage (40 each to 2x targets).Last edited by RogueJK; 2020-10-25 at 10:36 AM.
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2020-10-28, 05:29 AM (ISO 8601)Pixie in the Playground
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Re: Build Ideas for Blaster: AOE/multi-target Mage
I think this idea is generally one of the best builds at L7-8 for the AOE damage, The Sculpt Spells offers such a big boon over any other options, even a half damage fireball (now damage boosted) is just too much to put on your allies that are probably at highest risk being around enemies. I think the Zeal Cleric version is similar but kind of prefer it and believe it's got a lot more advantages over the Dragon Sorc than the Dragon Sorc has over Zeal Cleric. Originally Posted by Bobthewizard
Typically you'd expect a +4 Cha with this, if taking elemental adept feat with point buy it'd only be +3 unless you go Changling or Variant human, but even with a more generous roll system and a +5 Cha the expected damage for an empowered L3 fireball is ~39 vs 48 for Channel Divinity: Consuming Fervor. The Dragon Sorc can quicken and add on a firebolt which will add 16 damage if it hits for 55 total to just 1 target. So 9 less too all but 1 target and 7 more to one target and that's best case with +5 Cha. Could also do Green-flame blade instead, very generously assume +4 dex and shortsword for 12 and 9.5 extra damage on hit for +3 to one target and = to another. This uses 3 sorc points though and you'd need to convert spell slots to do it again, which you'd have to wait until your 3rd turn if L7 or use all sorc point on your first two turns if L8. Even with lots of conversions between battles, it's hard to see getting much more than 9 sorc points per adventuring day for doing this on 3 turns. Where as the Zeal Cleric can do this 2-3 times at L7 and 4-5 times at L8 per typical adventuring day.
So Just looking at the fireballs per adventuring day I tend to favor the Zeal Cleric, and that's even with the best case stats for a sorc build to help it, not possible with point buy or normal rolls. But then once you look at the bonus action you need to quicken like this, the Zeal Cleric can be using those bonus actions on spiritual weapon or Flaming sphere with cheeky Rakdous background or L3 wiz. Plus, the Cleric gets Spirit guardians as a very good option, which can be upcasted very well. You also get heavy armor prof for a higher AC and the same HP. If you ever need to use weapon attacks you're very good at this too, with martial weapons and a free attack whenever you use the attack action, you also get free hastespell always prepared so you could, if needed, haste yourself to be a 40 speed 22 AC tank and get two martial weapon attacks plus your regular action for fireballs.
Plus you have shield prof for MUCH higher AC.
The main advantage I see dragon sorc getting is the +4-5 on all the fire cantrips like green-flame blade or firebolt, but the Zeal cleric with that extra attack can match or beat this with a longbow or warhammer/longsword, and probably beat it with a greatsword or maul. So now the only way the dragon Sorc is coming ahead is with lots of quicken spells, but you don't have enough sorc points to do this and quicken and empower fireballs. If it's longer fights you get a lot more value with sprit guardians and spiritual weapon, shorter fights you get the better fireballs, lots of little fights your extra attack probably better.
To pretty much exhaust the pros of Dragon Sorc, you can get some good L2 L3 and L4 Sorc spells, namely, mirror image, web, hypnotic pattern and Polymorph, but if the goal is AOE damage, I'd rather be upcasting spirit guardians and I could continue this even with L5 slots at high levels. Plus you could reasonably skip elemental adapt because of spirit guardians damage versatility when you have fire resistance problems and be able to get that +5 spell casting bonus with more normal stat generation.Last edited by SpiderWaffle; 2020-10-28 at 06:41 PM.
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2020-10-28, 10:01 AM (ISO 8601)Bugbear in the Playground
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Re: Build Ideas for Blaster: AOE/multi-target Mage
I'm playing around with the idea of a action surge light cleric. Double RotD per turn on a short rest is good damage and there is always the nuclear option (double fireball). Plus all the extra proficiencies and defense style from fighter. I kind of dig it.
RotD this way scales for 2 dmg per cleric which isn't better scaling than an upcasted fireball but it doesn't expend spell slots. At lvl 8 where the build comes online, it's 4d10+12. At lvl 20 it's 4d10+36 with possible disadvantage on saves.Last edited by Gtdead; 2020-10-28 at 10:03 AM.
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2020-10-28, 10:07 AM (ISO 8601)Ogre in the Playground
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Re: Build Ideas for Blaster: AOE/multi-target Mage
If taking Light Cleric first, Fighter only gets you Martial weapons. Which isn't needed on a Light Cleric since they're a caster cleric, not a melee cleric. Originally Posted by Gtdead
If taking Fighter first, you also get Heavy Armor. Which is potentially useful.
But your spellcasting, including your ability to upcast Fireball, would suffer since you'd be 2 caster levels (an entire spell level) behind in your casting. As well as your RotD damage, which scales (barely) with Cleric level.
It's a nifty "1 nova round every short rest" trick, and I might play it for a one-off. But outside that 1 round per short rest, overall you'd be less powerful than a straight Light Cleric who also has access to an additional level of spells slots and spells prepared.
Besides, if you really wanted to Nova with Fireballs, a Zeal Cleric with Fighter Action Surge could be tossing 2x Maximized Fireballs in a round, 1x/short rest.Last edited by RogueJK; 2020-10-28 at 10:14 AM.
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2020-10-28, 10:12 AM (ISO 8601)Ettin in the Playground
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2020-10-28, 10:21 AM (ISO 8601)Ogre in the Playground
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Re: Build Ideas for Blaster: AOE/multi-target Mage
Yeah, Zeal is noticeably overpowered. Originally Posted by Bobthewizard
Tempest's Maximized Thunder/Lightning is already extremely powerful (though not quite OP). But single-classed Tempest Clerics are limited in their access to those kinds of spells anyway. You have to get wonky with multiclassing with Wizard/Sorcerer/Mountain Druid to really push it towards overpowered, and then you're behind in your higher level spells known.
At least with Tempest's best damage dealing spell - Call Lightning - it's easy for the DM to limit when/how it's used.
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2020-10-28, 10:24 AM (ISO 8601)Bugbear in the Playground
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Re: Build Ideas for Blaster: AOE/multi-target Mage
I always forget that multiclassing into fighter doesn't give heavy armor prof... So it's just the +1 from defense style. Originally Posted by RogueJK
I never multiclass out of casters before level 5 (for clerics, lvl 7 for arcane casters) unless it's a specialized build for a high level campaign.
I agree that even at max level, a 20 Light cleric is better than a 18/2 Cleric. Spending a resource a bit faster is puny against 2 more high level spell slots and the lvl 20 capstone. But it may be worth considering for a campaign that caps at lvl 10. I started thinking about this for Baldur's Gate 3 which will probably cap around 12, and dpr focused powerbuilds reign supreme in crpgs.
Edit: Forgot to mention earlier, for what is worth the cleric 18/fighter 2 has some synergy with divine word.Last edited by Gtdead; 2020-10-28 at 02:20 PM.
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2020-10-28, 12:24 PM (ISO 8601)Bugbear in the Playground
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Re: Build Ideas for Blaster: AOE/multi-target Mage
Oh hey, my Horvath build! I was about to recommend the exact same thing. (did you glean this from my sorcerer guide?) Originally Posted by Bobthewizard
EDIT: Ritual caster and strong utility level 1 wizard spells really solidifies the spell diversity that sorcerers often lack.Last edited by TheUser; 2020-10-28 at 12:25 PM.
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2020-10-28, 05:12 PM (ISO 8601)Pixie in the Playground
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Re: Build Ideas for Blaster: AOE/multi-target Mage
Maybe even bigger boon with fighter first is you get the constitution save prof. You also get 1 more HP. Originally Posted by RogueJK
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2020-10-28, 05:53 PM (ISO 8601)Pixie in the Playground
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Re: Build Ideas for Blaster: AOE/multi-target Mage
Is it really though? I've never heard of Tempest Clerics being OP, doesn't normally rank even in the top of clerics. Zeal Cleric isn't that much different other than casting fireball instead of call lightning. Prefer the Tempest cleric L1 ability. Originally Posted by RogueJK
I think the Shadow Sorc, Echo Knight, Eloquence Bard, Chronugry Wiz, or Any Sorlock are far better than Zeal Cleric.Last edited by SpiderWaffle; 2020-10-28 at 06:43 PM.
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2020-10-28, 07:24 PM (ISO 8601)Bugbear in the Playground
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Re: Build Ideas for Blaster: AOE/multi-target Mage
There aren't many things in the game that can top the output of classes with maximized aoe spells. We generally don't rate classes as overpowered based on damage output. Otherwise everyone would be talking about evokers, dragon sorcerers etc as if they were the gods of dnd. Originally Posted by SpiderWaffle
But if you like the kit of the cleric, bringing one with access to maximized spells works wonders for your party. A 48 damage fireball at lvl 5 isn't a laughing matter. It outright kills most monsters up to (and including) CR3 and the ones that survive are left with less than 10 health. Due to how the aoe damage spikes at lvl 5, fireball is considered by many an encounter ending spell for the early stages of t2. A maximized fireball is on another level.Last edited by Gtdead; 2020-10-28 at 07:32 PM.
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2020-10-28, 09:07 PM (ISO 8601)Ettin in the Playground
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2020-10-28, 09:08 PM (ISO 8601)Pixie in the Playground
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Re: Build Ideas for Blaster: AOE/multi-target Mage
Yes at L5 fireball and Zeal are a spike in power, but a L5 Zeal has no way to not damage allies so generally will find your options to kill everything with 1 fireball aren't there unless you're killing your party too. Where as a basic Drag Sorc can deal similar damage with 1 sorc point and still use careful spell to protect allies and no one thinks Drag Sorc is that good, mid tier of Sorc at best. Originally Posted by Gtdead
I just haven't heard of any real stories of Zeal cleric being OP. I mean if the battles are all a bunch of 40-50HP monster stay a big pile for 1 round, and don't came from other sides or get into a scrum ever, then ya it'd be the best thing in the game. Normal battles aren't like that though, allies and monsters are mixed before you have tons of targets you can hit with 1 fireball. Fire resistance is the most common resistance in the game, plus good dex saves are common too, and you can't get good spell save DC and elemental adapt feat by L5, so you might not get to kill anything even if the stars align and you can get more than 3 in a fireball and no allies. I'd rather just cast hypnotic pattern, slow, or spirit guardians most of the time at L5 if I want to be more powerful.
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2020-10-28, 09:19 PM (ISO 8601)Ogre in the Playground
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Re: Build Ideas for Blaster: AOE/multi-target Mage
Fire resistance/immunity is a thing, but Zeal Clerics still have Shatter (which they can also maximize) to fall back on if needed.
As stated, especially in Tier 2, Maximized Fireballs are really, really good AoE damage, able to wipe out or seriously hurt most foes. After all, Fireballs are already admittedly overpowered for their spell level, per the designers.
Consider a Zeal 5 is doing 48 damage with a max Fireball, whereas a Tempest 5 is doing 32 damage with an upcast max Shatter/Thunderwave or 30 damage with max Call Lightning, and a Light 5 is doing an average of 28 damage with their Fireball.
That's a pretty hefty increase in damage (50+% extra) over Tempest and Light, and all of these Tempest Clerics AoEs have a smaller radius than Fireball to boot, and Thunderwave/Shatter target CON which is usually a higher save for more enemies compared to DEX.
A Zeal 7 is then doing 54 max damage, versus 38/40 max damage for Tempest 7 and ~31.5 damage for Light 7. Still a sizeable damage gap, and still over a larger area than Tempest.Last edited by RogueJK; 2020-10-28 at 09:50 PM.
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2020-10-29, 11:27 AM (ISO 8601)Pixie in the Playground
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Re: Build Ideas for Blaster: AOE/multi-target Mage
Yes it's a lot of damage, and I think it's good, but not OP, in practice I have yet to hear of it being OP. You're either doing a lot of damage to your allies, killing them often, or not hitting too many enemies the vast majority of the time. If the only argument is because the damage is high, it's only 23% more than a Dragon Sorc, and no one thinks the dragon sorc is OP or is even among the top of sorcerers. And the Dragon sorc can empower non-thunder/fire spells, and quicken to do even more damage so it can be more damage to 1 target which can be better often. Not to mention they get far better higher level spells like polymorph. And they aren't even considered among the best of sorc, let alone OP. Originally Posted by RogueJK
Zeal being OP in theory because of 1 or 2 fireball damages, just not seeing it, not compared to other things in the game and not compared to a similar Dragon Sorc. Maybe best Cleric L5-7, but not OP.Last edited by SpiderWaffle; 2020-10-31 at 01:25 AM.
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2020-10-29, 12:17 PM (ISO 8601)Ogre in the Playground
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Re: Build Ideas for Blaster: AOE/multi-target Mage
I think the OP part doesn't come from strictly the impressive AoE damage, but from that being stacked on top of the already good Cleric chassis, plus the additional melee abilities of the Zeal Cleric (roughly equivalent to a War Cleric, who lacks the blasting capabilities). Originally Posted by SpiderWaffle
So they're a better blaster and slightly better at melee than the Tempest, a better blaster and much better at melee than the Light Cleric, and a significantly better blaster than and basically as good at melee as the War Cleric.
And then toss in the extra abusability of a 2 level Zeal dip to an Arcane blaster, who would have access to a wider variety of Fire spells than someone similar dipping Tempest for Lightning.
Taken as a whole, that's pretty darn close to OP, if not fully OP.Last edited by RogueJK; 2020-10-29 at 12:28 PM.
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2020-10-29, 12:43 PM (ISO 8601)Barbarian in the Playground
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Re: Build Ideas for Blaster: AOE/multi-target Mage
Zeal 2/Evoker 17 Maximize the fire portion of Meteor Swarm.... and it is safe for allies... 120+20d6 bludgeoning damage... Originally Posted by RogueJK
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