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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Default Not Getting To Play

    One thing worse than being affected by a Save or Suck spell and your d20 not believing in double digit numbers every round at the end of your turn so you can't do anything is being kept out of the combat by some obstacle, not necessarily a wall, so that you can't do anything and don't even have the hope of getting back in making a save at the end of your turn so you do nothing that combat but sit there. Spellcasters can be affected by this too.

    As a DM do not do this to a player. I don't care how logical it is for the bad guys to do it. Don't do it. It sucks donkey.
    Quote Originally Posted by OvisCaedo View Post
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    Daemon

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    Default Re: Not Getting To Play

    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    One thing worse than being affected by a Save or Suck spell and your d20 not believing in double digit numbers every round at the end of your turn so you can't do anything is being kept out of the combat by some obstacle, not necessarily a wall, so that you can't do anything and don't even have the hope of getting back in making a save at the end of your turn so you do nothing that combat but sit there. Spellcasters can be affected by this too.

    As a DM do not do this to a player. I don't care how logical it is for the bad guys to do it. Don't do it. It sucks donkey.
    I agree. After seeing how unfun it was for my players, I now avoid hard control abilities. By that I mean things that deny actions entirely. Giving disadvantage or penalties, not a problem.

    Am I playing suboptimal? Sure. But I'm not out to win. If I wanted to do that, I could without difficulty. I'm there to have fun, and part of that is helping everyone else have fun.
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    Default Re: Not Getting To Play

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    Am I playing suboptimal? Sure. But I'm not out to win. If I wanted to do that, I could without difficulty. I'm there to have fun, and part of that is helping everyone else have fun.
    The reason I never use Sunder as a DM.

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    Default Re: Not Getting To Play

    Ultimately, I disagree that control measures need to be removed outright. As a player, I was disappointed by a GM who began removing such things from the enemy repertoire, since it essentially discouraged me from carrying measures that might be used to countermand such obstacles. Because of the expectation of fair play symmetry between both sides of the screen at our table, it also meant an increased push to remove hard control as an option for the players. This drastically changed the nature of encounters involving force or violence (not necessarily combat, chases et al. fit into a similar boat) in a way that I found deeply dissatisfying.

    Ultimately, this rule was undone, with the express knowledge that when other PCs got "jailed" and couldn't escape on their own I would carry options to remove the obstacle. They would try to do the same to me, and if I did get "jailed" I was relatively accepting of it given that control is my favored playstyle (so, to me, fair's fair if I didn't prepare an out).

    A better rule might be ensure that players, as a team, have a way to remove or avert a given type of obstacle before using it. I don't find trading actions to be unfun; trying to maximize action economy advantage is part of the fun for me. If the [control] can be burrowed under, jumped over, broken through, dispelled, concentration broken, etc. it's just another problem to solve.

    As a GM, I find that control-type abilities can add a lot of texture to encounters. Also, I enjoy running the sorts of characters and tactics that would make use of them. So, again, I would never remove them from my games for either the players or myself.

    I can more agree with the deeper sentiment of not just saying "I win" as a GM, outside of MAYBE very specific genres (e.g. horror) with the session 0 understanding that PCs may just die helplessly. Control, as with everything, is most interesting when there is possible counterplay to it.
    Last edited by RifleAvenger; 2020-10-26 at 04:39 AM.

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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Not Getting To Play

    Quote Originally Posted by RifleAvenger View Post
    Ultimately, I disagree that control measures need to be removed outright.
    This. If done properly hard control measures can be fun.

    Case in point an adventure I was playing yesterday had a cursed sword that made anyone who could see it and was within 15 or 20' make a will save or lust after the sword wanting to kill it's owner and claim it (not entirely sure what it made the owner do, but there was some suggestion that was bad too).
    The first two members of the party to see it were the warmage/cleric and the transmuter - both people with good saves so they should be fine, right? Wrong - they both failed. The proto-theurge killed the enemy and claimed the sword at which point the transmter attacked him. Both of them hammed it up ("my precious") and a great time was had by all of the players (not so the characters).
    Thankfully my cleric made his save so a quick protection from evil got the wielder out of the sword's control and a quick resurgence demonstrated that the transmuter was a weak willed idiot (he failed again). Thankfully the proto-theurge was able to drop a protection from evil on the transmuter (we both rolled well for our touch attacks) which calmed things down. As an interim solution the party scout took the bundled up sword (so he could neither see nor feel it) off into the woods to hide from the two idiots while the rest of us finished dealing with all the repercussions from the adventure as it took several hours for the cure effect to wear off. (We were all level 4 so no, we didn't have anything more powerful to use).

    What we did have was quite a laugh as things went extremely silly.

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    Default Re: Not Getting To Play

    I quite like the following convention:

    Either every PC is in the fight, or some PCs are late by one or two rounds (or the fight is likely to be finished in one or two rounds), or the fight is quickly resolved through few skill checks rather than a full combat encounter (even if that mean some degree of railroading of the fight by the DM).

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    Default Re: Not Getting To Play

    Quote Originally Posted by Khedrac View Post
    This. If done properly hard control measures can be fun.

    Snip

    While I understand where you are coming from & i did have a similarly fun experience some time ago, the players (and myself at the time) still had options and got to participate in the combat.

    Now think of what would have happened if the players got turned to stone or were paralyzed. They'd have to sit on their hands and wait until they make the proper save to continue participating.

    Ultimately, that's what the bigger issue that the op is covering. Removing a player from combat; Fully & completely until they make their save/skill check.

    Personally, i replace conditions and status effects that remove players fully with some kind of debuff. You're "paralyzed", not paralyzed; you can't move from your square and you have -8 to dex and str. 3rd party pathfinder has a condition called "scared" which is essentially a more severe form of shaken which i use in place of the panicked. This leave the players with limited options, but still options to participate in combat.

    I would also like to clarify that dead is still dead. Im not that nice.

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    Default Re: Not Getting To Play

    At our table the rule is simple: whatever the PCs can do, the enemies can do as well. So if I start using 'save or die' spells, our opponents can do the same. And that is fair to all of us. Of course, that's an advantage of playing in a stable group for almost 20 years now.
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    I feel like the subject is significantly deviating.

    Pex's post was not directly criticising Save or Suck spells. He was saying that "One thing which is worse the SoS spells is" having a PC unable to participate to the fight at all. The argument being that with a SoS, you still have the possibility of coming back on a successful save, while if your character is not even in the fight, you have nothing to do other than watching.

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    Default Re: Not Getting To Play

    I’ve run into a few issues with players recently opting out of fights (that I had provided only one hint at rather than 3) and the pain of everyone agreeing that the narrative wasn’t to be twisted at that point since those who had wandered off did do as a big event in pursuit of character goals.

    I’ve since acted to mitigate such events with hirelings being made available as ‘my character is absent’ options. Overall seems to be a win win, players are enjoying seeing their hirelings brought to life and it allows party members to narratively ‘be off doing things’ while everyone still gets in on the action.
    If all rules are suggestions what happens when I pass the save?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MoiMagnus View Post
    I feel like the subject is significantly deviating.

    Pex's post was not directly criticising Save or Suck spells. He was saying that "One thing which is worse the SoS spells is" having a PC unable to participate to the fight at all. The argument being that with a SoS, you still have the possibility of coming back on a successful save, while if your character is not even in the fight, you have nothing to do other than watching.
    Yes, this. Hold Person is fine. A Fear effect is fine. You get a chance to overcome it at the end of your turn and curse your d20 when it only rolls single digits. Some spell that fully blocks the doorway into the room such that your PC is stuck in the hallway while everyone else plays the combat in the room is not. At the very least give that locked out PC something to do. Throw in an extra appropriate monster that PC has to fight alone. Don't treat the PC like Harry Potter in Chamber of Secrets: "I'll be in my room making no noise pretending I don't exist."
    Quote Originally Posted by OvisCaedo View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    Yes, this. Hold Person is fine. A Fear effect is fine. You get a chance to overcome it at the end of your turn and curse your d20 when it only rolls single digits. Some spell that fully blocks the doorway into the room such that your PC is stuck in the hallway while everyone else plays the combat in the room is not. At the very least give that locked out PC something to do. Throw in an extra appropriate monster that PC has to fight alone. Don't treat the PC like Harry Potter in Chamber of Secrets: "I'll be in my room making no noise pretending I don't exist."
    Errr...they do have something to do. Remove the blockage. Get around it. Find a different way in.

    Smash a wall/the door, teleport/Dimension Door, Passwall, Shape Stone/Wood, walk to somewhere else, etc. You always have something to do.

    If your first response to an obstacle as a player is "well I just do nothing then", that's your fault.
    Last edited by Rynjin; 2020-10-26 at 04:37 PM.

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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Not Getting To Play

    Have to post my agreement with the OP, effects that remove players from the game are not beneficial mechanics. Especially if those effects can last for long portions of the game.
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    Default Re: Not Getting To Play

    So, how do effects that take you out of play compare to killing the charicter?

    I ask as often a long term take down means the villain no longer needs to kill the hero right now.
    Lacking a take down shouldn't the villain just focus and kill instead?

    I know its devils advocate here, but isnt dead worse then held/paralyzed/ ect?
    Or do you want the gm to not take pcs out of combat including death?

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    Imp

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    Default Re: Not Getting To Play

    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    Yes, this. Hold Person is fine. A Fear effect is fine. You get a chance to overcome it at the end of your turn and curse your d20 when it only rolls single digits. Some spell that fully blocks the doorway into the room such that your PC is stuck in the hallway while everyone else plays the combat in the room is not. At the very least give that locked out PC something to do. Throw in an extra appropriate monster that PC has to fight alone. Don't treat the PC like Harry Potter in Chamber of Secrets: "I'll be in my room making no noise pretending I don't exist."
    Another, similar thing like this is devising/altering monsters to specifically counter player abilities. Why even let players have abilities? The monsters are only supposed to win in horror games.
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    Default Re: Not Getting To Play

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastikator View Post
    Another, similar thing like this is devising/altering monsters to specifically counter player abilities. Why even let players have abilities? The monsters are only supposed to win in horror games.
    Everything being conveniently fire immune is bad form but I don’t see the harm with infrequent counters that don’t strain verisimilitude. A supervillain will work to counter a hero’s powers if given the chance and opportunity. But that may just be it, a monster rather than monsters. An exception to the norm.
    If all rules are suggestions what happens when I pass the save?

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    AssassinGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    Errr...they do have something to do. Remove the blockage. Get around it. Find a different way in.

    Smash a wall/the door, teleport/Dimension Door, Passwall, Shape Stone/Wood, walk to somewhere else, etc. You always have something to do.

    If your first response to an obstacle as a player is "well I just do nothing then", that's your fault.
    Have to agree with this. If you just sit there pouting because you have to run around the long way to get into combat for a couple rounds or something, thats entirely your own fault. Likewise if you run off alone and dont get to participate because you separated, thats your own fault. If the DM puts up a magical impenetrable sphere around the boss arena that nobody can breach by any means because Plot(tm) then yeah, thats kind of a poor move on the DM's part, but i have never even heard of that actually happening in a game.
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    ElfRangerGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mastikator View Post
    Another, similar thing like this is devising/altering monsters to specifically counter player abilities. Why even let players have abilities? The monsters are only supposed to win in horror games.
    I don't fully agree. You can do this, but not all the time. It's like in the Star Trek roleplay book, where they say that you can have a session where the player's techno gizmo's don't work, but not all the time. But I do agree that you should be careful when doing that. But having an intelligent adversary research his opponents just like the players do is no problem to me. If a villain for instance knows that the party mages loves to throw fire stuff, it's only logical that he/she/it invests in fire protection. Maybe not fire immunity, but at least fire resistance. In the same way that the players will do if they have such knowledge. And you can also throw hints about your villains if the players do their research. To continue, if the party mage always uses fire spells and they know they're going up against a red dragon, it's up to him to make sure he can also do something else.

    As to the separation issue, we've have it multiple times in our group. Either the GM switches back and forth between the two groups (often even physically separating the players) or it's the same encounter and then we keep going one after the other. The first option will mean one group or the other has to wait at times, but okay, it's not that much of a problem (you can think about your next move while the GM is working with the other group) and in the second option we just go through the initiative and if a player does nothing, that's his/her choice.
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    So the big bad guys never take advantage of a split party or perform 1 on 1 combats such as a duel? This would leave half the party just watching the game being played?

    The bad guy/gal/xal never throws or bull rushes someone off a ledge? Which would remove them from combat for 2+ rounds unless they fly? How does a basic pit trap work in your games? I have used it with bad guys around the far corner with bows. When the trap is tripped and someone falls in they roll around the corner and start firing. The person in the 30 foot pit is very much alive but it takes rounds of not playing to get into the fight (gnome in armor had a climb speed of 10 and not the best climb check).

    Do you/your GM use anything in enchantment? That makes the player an NPC for rounds/days unless another party member as the perfect counter spell/item. A fighter/barb with a low will basically doesn't stand a chance against level 4 and above spells. I totally agree clerics/wizards/sorcs have a much better chance.

    Tne npc's do not use solid fog as that is no save and takes rounds to move though? Have you never had a party membered MAZED before? What about an assassin's strike that downs a PC in combat due to damage? That dead PC cannot participate anymore. That is worse than being mazed.

    No walls or stone or iron or force but there are magic items, multiple spells, class abilities designed to get through that. Those spells/abilities exist for a reason. The majority of these spells affects and situations are there to delay reinforcements or break up a fighting pair for a few rounds. Yes that player doesn't get to do much for 3 rounds of combat which could be 45 minutes. The player should still be engaged with the game and the outcome.

    There are 100's of effects and situations where a PC is just out of combat for 3+ rounds and there is no save or it is a bad skill check to make progress. Many times these add excitement and flare to a standard encounter.

    STORY:
    A large city plaza, dragon lands and our party has to fight it. There were 2 classic dwarven defenders in the party. They step up with their "We will hold it back" attitude. The dragon uses Telekensis and hurls the first dwarf not into a building, or into the air to become friends with gravity. Instead he hurls the bearded wall of steel down main street over 160 feet. That dwarf now had to take 4 full rounds just to get back to where he was standing. Next round dragon did the same thing to dwarf 2 except down 3rd. 3 rounds later Dwarf 1 makes it back. Round 5 now, dragon uses TK again to put the dwarf down main street again. At his point poor dwarf has rolled 2 d20 and failed 2 will saves (10th combat round). Yes the dwarf had 1 in 20 chance to make the save. The other dwarf had a 33% chance to make the save but his die forgot what double digits were for those 2 rolls. But that is basically a no save situation. For 8 rounds of the combat they just ran in heavy armor down their respective streets.

    The part had to fight without the melee heavy hitters/tanks for 8 rounds. Finally in round 11 the dragon was going to fly away, dwarf 1 arrived and charged it. Hit with a confirmed critical, screamed "MISS ME MUCH?" and the dragon died. It was one of the most glorious gaming combats of the players lives. And it was because of those 8 you are not in this fight no-save-to-get-back no-skill-check-to-speed-this-up rounds for 2 different combatants (16 rounds of I do nothing but run).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    Errr...they do have something to do. Remove the blockage. Get around it. Find a different way in.

    Smash a wall/the door, teleport/Dimension Door, Passwall, Shape Stone/Wood, walk to somewhere else, etc. You always have something to do.

    If your first response to an obstacle as a player is "well I just do nothing then", that's your fault.
    The point is there is no way in. The player doesn't have access to teleportation or to smash a wall or a means to get rid of the obstacle. Splitting the party is fine. That's not the problem. The problem is when the party is split a player is left with nothing to do. By whatever means he's split off he can't get back into the fight. Where ever he is there isn't anything to do in his vicinity. There are no actions to take. Nothing to explore. Nothing to try. Nothing to attempt. He's cut off from the scene and the game.
    Last edited by Pex; 2020-10-27 at 12:02 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by OvisCaedo View Post
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    PaladinGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by gijoemike View Post
    It was one of the most glorious gaming combats of the players lives. And it was because of those 8 you are not in this fight no-save-to-get-back no-skill-check-to-speed-this-up rounds for 2 different combatants (16 rounds of I do nothing but run).
    I like the story. It was a good use of TK to mix things up. The dwarves in the story had an obvious way to get back into the action and they used it, which seems to be what the original poster was upset about - no way back into the action.

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    ElfRangerGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    The point is there is no way in. The player doesn't have access to teleportation or to smash a wall or a means to get rid of the obstacle. Splitting the party is fine. That's not the problem. The problem is when the party is split a player is left with nothing to do. By whatever means he's split off he can't get back into the fight. Where ever he is there isn't anything to do in his vicinity. There are no actions to take. Nothing to explore. Nothing to try. Nothing to attempt. He's cut off from the scene and the game.
    You should indeed either give the player a possible way in, or something else to do. I agree that if neither of those two options are present, it's not good, unless it's the player who decided to withdraw and then do nothing. At that point it's player choice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    The point is there is no way in. The player doesn't have access to teleportation or to smash a wall or a means to get rid of the obstacle. Splitting the party is fine. That's not the problem. The problem is when the party is split a player is left with nothing to do. By whatever means he's split off he can't get back into the fight. Where ever he is there isn't anything to do in his vicinity. There are no actions to take. Nothing to explore. Nothing to try. Nothing to attempt. He's cut off from the scene and the game.
    Do you have a specific story in mind or is this some type of hypothetical "gotcha" scenario designed to provoke heated debate?

    Regardless, if a specific player is SO unprepared that they have no means to interact with this nondescript "obstacle", they're probably lucky they didn't get to participate in the combat, because death is the ultimate removal from combat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    Do you have a specific story in mind or is this some type of hypothetical "gotcha" scenario designed to provoke heated debate?

    Regardless, if a specific player is SO unprepared that they have no means to interact with this nondescript "obstacle", they're probably lucky they didn't get to participate in the combat, because death is the ultimate removal from combat.
    It's happened to me a few times in the past few months with different DMs, most recent just before I posted and needed to vent. I know it wasn't on purpose in a Tyrannical DM (TM) sort of way, but it still ticked me off just the same. You don't let a player sit there doing nothing while you take 30 minutes to an hour running a combat. At the very least let him play one of the bad guys in the fight.
    Quote Originally Posted by OvisCaedo View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    The point is there is no way in. The player doesn't have access to teleportation or to smash a wall or a means to get rid of the obstacle. Splitting the party is fine. That's not the problem. The problem is when the party is split a player is left with nothing to do. By whatever means he's split off he can't get back into the fight. Where ever he is there isn't anything to do in his vicinity. There are no actions to take. Nothing to explore. Nothing to try. Nothing to attempt. He's cut off from the scene and the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    Do you have a specific story in mind or is this some type of hypothetical "gotcha" scenario designed to provoke heated debate?
    I do. I don't remember exactly what led to the situation, but it ended with all but two members of the party (I was one) falling into a lake with dolphins. The PCs in the lake started fighting the dolphins. Since I didn't fall in the lake, there was no reason for me to go into the lake. I was a melee Crusader, so couldn't attack from range. So I (and the other player whose PC didn't fall in) sat there for about 30 minutes while everyone else fought the dolphins.

    I don't know why the other PCs didn't just swim to the side and climb out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kesnit View Post
    I do. I don't remember exactly what led to the situation, but it ended with all but two members of the party (I was one) falling into a lake with dolphins. The PCs in the lake started fighting the dolphins. Since I didn't fall in the lake, there was no reason for me to go into the lake. I was a melee Crusader, so couldn't attack from range. So I (and the other player whose PC didn't fall in) sat there for about 30 minutes while everyone else fought the dolphins.

    I don't know why the other PCs didn't just swim to the side and climb out.
    Um... wanting to fight the dolphins and/or rescue your fellow PCs seems like a pretty good reason to go into the lake to me.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Imp

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Sweden
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Not Getting To Play

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Um... wanting to fight the dolphins and/or rescue your fellow PCs seems like a pretty good reason to go into the lake to me.
    Why would you want to fight the dolphins? Are they members of the cult of the deep or something, are they in league with aboleths or guarding the trident of destiny? Is your DM forcing you to keep track of food and you're out of rations? Are they just picking a fight with anything for exp?
    Black text is for sarcasm, also sincerity. You'll just have to read between the lines and infer from context like an animal

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Vacation in Nyalotha

    Default Re: Not Getting To Play

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastikator View Post
    Why would you want to fight the dolphins? Are they members of the cult of the deep or something, are they in league with aboleths or guarding the trident of destiny? Is your DM forcing you to keep track of food and you're out of rations? Are they just picking a fight with anything for exp?
    They said nasty things about me mum and groped the paladin

    But really, why fight random dolphins?
    If all rules are suggestions what happens when I pass the save?

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Troll in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Italy
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Not Getting To Play

    while it is true that it feels bad to be cut out of a fight, i disagree that it should be avoided. the reason is, as a player i'd hate to feel that the game was rigged in my favor.
    ok, the game IS rigged in my favor, in that the dm has set up encounters that i should manage to win. but within that premise, he's not pulling any punches. i'd much rather sit out of a fight than stay in the fight because the dm intentionally misused his npcs. and having the npcs not using good strategies makes them look bad. and it takes away a lot of immersion, at least for me. why this villain, that has been characterized as very clever and resourceful, is not using this clealry good tactc? meh, this villain is actually pretty lame. and a hero is only as cool as his villain...

    maybe it's not ideal while you ae fighting, but you'll remember much more fondly a fight where you managed to defeat a villain who disabled half the party. the players will respect the villain, and will be happeir when they win
    In memory of Evisceratus: he dreamed of a better world, but he lacked the class levels to make the dream come true.

    Ridiculous monsters you won't take seriously even as they disembowel you

    my take on the highly skilled professional: the specialized expert

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2010

    Default Re: Not Getting To Play

    I'm kind of done with hard control in games on both sides. I love soft control though.

    And I prefer games where you can remove someone from combat without killing them as a first-class concept in the game.
    "Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking)"

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