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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: [Dragonlance/Faerun] Anyone here met any Cataclysm/Wall of the Faithless defender

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    It's probably worth mentioning that, prior to the Time of Troubles in FR, essentially all the deities, including the nominally good ones, just left their dead worshippers on the Fugue Plane to sit there because there was nothing in the divine system that obligated, or even suggested, that they do anything else with them. At the same time, they were pretty much explicitly forgiven from caring about the fate of the Faithless, as those who chose not to worship anyone were completely outside their purview. Instead, it fell to various gods of death to decide what to do with them and apparently Myrkul came up with the idea of the Wall of the Faithless upon becoming the god of death, which only happened a few millennia in the past (Myrkul apparently lived as a mortal sometime during the Age of Netheril). Presumably Jergal, the god of death prior to that, did something else with the Faithless. If the Wall of Faithless only existed for ~4000 years, it's entirely possible that only around 100,000 people have ever been mortared into it.
    Which is 100,000 people too many.

    There is no justifiable reason why the gods should have the power to throw into a wall just because you made a decision that hurts no one that you had no way of knowing would get you punished, no matter how few people made it.

    If someone had the power to kill you for saying the phrase "explosiontastically cogniferous" it would still be wrong, even if you were the only person to ever make the mistake of saying it.

    There is no greater good being served here, there is no gain for this cost. the estimate is meaningless.

    the only people harmed by you not believing in gods are the gods themselves. its pure selfish pettiness. which makes sense for evil gods, but not good ones. and here the thing: I once heard that the wall of the faithless is a good reason to make a deal with devils to go to their afterlife instead, because at least then you'll at least be a devil capable of doing things and taking actions to benefit yourself rather than being tortured in a wall for eternity. its literally preferable to rule in hell than end up on the wall, because hell is technically a kinder place. perhaps the reason why so few end up the wall may be that the souls who found out about it would rather take the deal with opportunistic devils who set up shop to recruit them after seeing what lies in store for them if they be faithless. if no one else is going to snatch them up after all, why not? and why wouldn't the souls take them up on the offer, they see the good gods allow this thing to exist, why believe in them? they're clearly failing if they can't prevent such suffering, and at least the devils are honest about how unfair the system is. and if you can't be good, the only thing left to be is unfair in your favor.
    I'm also on discord as "raziere".


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    Default Re: [Dragonlance/Faerun] Anyone here met any Cataclysm/Wall of the Faithless defender

    #1: Meet Roy Greenhilt. He knows that gods exist, passively worships a pantheon, but his attitude boils down to "I'll stay out of their hair and hope they stay out of mine". This is not the same as picking a patron deity, so Roy winds up as a piece of masonry after he dies. Is Roy's attitude a reasonable one in a fantasy world? Should that one element of his belief override everything else in the interview?

    I get that the Doylist reason for The Wall is to encourage players to fill out the "patron deity" space on their sheet instead of leaving it blank. It's just bad design on multiple levels to try and encourage or discourage player behavior by holding a threat over the character after they leave play.

    #2: It's already been touched on that as per the writers, people would actively stop worshiping the gods who cosmically back whatever principles those people deeply believe in if they didn't have the threat of The Wall over their heads. In the real world people can donate a decent amount of time and money to causes they believe in. (Although nothing other than opportunity cost keeps them from also donating to other causes they also believe in.) That the writers insist that people would stop doing so if they had the option if being judged on their actions implies heavy handed authorial justification, and/or an acknowledgement that the gods are not worthy of worship if not under duress.

    #3: Yes, I get that pure atheism (in the sense of "gods do not exist") in the realms would be like not believing in zebras in our world. Athar-like hate would also be unlikely, although possible. (Although active mistreatment by gods would make this more likely. Thus the reaction of some real-world readers that the gods' threat against nonbelievers makes them much more likely to take the Athar stance if they were ported to the realms.)

    If I were to take a transparent expy of a real world religious figure and make them the villain of my latest adventure, the fact that no members of said religion happened to live in the realms would not prevent the adventure from being a blatant slam against that religion and any believers who happened to read the adventure. The authors doubling down so hard and so often against a take relevant to many real world readers (lack of) religious belief is not excused by the viewpoints of people living in a fictional world. Honestly, the whole insistence on the in-universe Rightness and Justice of the wall in-universe is worse than just the brainfart that thought its existence was a good idea in the first place.

  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: [Dragonlance/Faerun] Anyone here met any Cataclysm/Wall of the Faithless defender

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    I once heard that the wall of the faithless is a good reason to make a deal with devils to go to their afterlife instead, because at least then you'll at least be a devil capable of doing things and taking actions to benefit yourself rather than being tortured in a wall for eternity. its literally preferable to rule in hell than end up on the wall, because hell is technically a kinder place. perhaps the reason why so few end up the wall may be that the souls who found out about it would rather take the deal with opportunistic devils who set up shop to recruit them after seeing what lies in store for them if they be faithless. if no one else is going to snatch them up after all, why not?
    Demons, for their part, can steal souls out of the wall, drag them back to the Abyss, and forcibly convert the souls into demons. Regardless of their alignment in life.

    Think about how ****ed that is. Alternative reality Drizzt, who decided all gods blew after his experience with Lloth, but accomplished everything else he did in life and died CG, would have ended up in the Wall. Then Lloth could have sent some servants over to drag his soul before her after all. While Kelemvor shrugs and the "Good" gods look on.

    Meanwhile, are the Chaotic Good outsiders doing the same? Freeing souls from the Wall because screw the rules? No? Only Evil is allowed to take advantage of the Wall? Well then...


    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    and why wouldn't the souls take them up on the offer, they see the good gods allow this thing to exist, why believe in them? they're clearly failing if they can't prevent such suffering, and at least the devils are honest about how unfair the system is. and if you can't be good, the only thing left to be is unfair in your favor.
    This. The Wall undermines the Goodness of the Good gods, and despite some people saying that's on purpose, I disagree. Forgotten Realms is heroic fantasy more often than cosmic horror. The Wall twists that at the root by painting the Good gods both as being ok with something so terrible and allowing their Evil enemies to exploit it to their advantage. It's either an awful throwback to the Satanic Scare, an awful attempt to force players to choose a patron diety, some writer's "Take That!" to atheists, or obsolete kludge. None of those are reasons to retain it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anymage View Post
    Honestly, the whole insistence on the in-universe Rightness and Justice of the wall in-universe is worse than just the brainfart that thought its existence was a good idea in the first place.
    The person who thought it should exist in the first place made it as a Very Bad ThingTM that Myrkul did, which should be destroyed. And it was. Then the whole debacle that invented Ao brought it BACK for no clear reasons beyond the unknowable jackass declaring it was necessary for reasons he wouldn't explain.
    Last edited by RifleAvenger; 2020-10-28 at 07:56 PM.

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    Default Re: [Dragonlance/Faerun] Anyone here met any Cataclysm/Wall of the Faithless defender

    Quote Originally Posted by Anymage View Post
    #1: Meet Roy Greenhilt. He knows that gods exist, passively worships a pantheon, but his attitude boils down to "I'll stay out of their hair and hope they stay out of mine". This is not the same as picking a patron deity, so Roy winds up as a piece of masonry after he dies. Is Roy's attitude a reasonable one in a fantasy world? Should that one element of his belief override everything else in the interview?
    My understanding is that, at least in all but the most strict takes on it, you don't need a cleric-lite patron deity. You literally just need to not deny the gods. Passively worshiping the pantheon you were brought up in like any normal person is generally enough. And I also imagine that even if he was in danger of being put in the wall in that interview for some reason, managing to answer anything other than "no one" on the final question of "but who is your favorite god?" would instantly clear him. If saying "no one, in fact they all suck" even in such a circumstance is so important it overrides everything else about him, only then do i think he'd have a chance of having to deal with the wall.

  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: [Dragonlance/Faerun] Anyone here met any Cataclysm/Wall of the Faithless defender

    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernPhoenix View Post
    My understanding is that, at least in all but the most strict takes on it, you don't need a cleric-lite patron deity. You literally just need to not deny the gods. Passively worshiping the pantheon you were brought up in like any normal person is generally enough. And I also imagine that even if he was in danger of being put in the wall in that interview for some reason, managing to answer anything other than "no one" on the final question of "but who is your favorite god?" would instantly clear him. If saying "no one, in fact they all suck" even in such a circumstance is so important it overrides everything else about him, only then do i think he'd have a chance of having to deal with the wall.
    You don't even need a favorite god - you just need to acknowledge divine authority. Again, many of the members of Faerun's evil societies hate their deities, spit upon them, and wish them eternal doom...and still end up in their realms after death.

    Quote Originally Posted by RifleAvenger
    The person who thought it should exist in the first place made it as a Very Bad ThingTM that Myrkul did, which should be destroyed. And it was. Then the whole debacle that invented Ao brought it BACK for no clear reasons beyond the unknowable jackass declaring it was necessary for reasons he wouldn't explain.
    The Wall was specifically used as a plot point in the novel Waterdeep (it, adn the whole concept of Faithless and False, may also have been first mentioned at this point, I'm not sure) - the third book in the 1989 Avatar series of novels that resolved the whole Time of Troubles metaplot event - primarily as a threat to hold over the character of Adon, who had become so disgusted by Time of Troubles events he'd rejected the gods outright. Waterdeep was written by Troy Denning, an author who never considers the implications of anything beyond its immediate character impact. This cannot be stressed enough, there are multiple fantasy franchises littered with continuity wreckage because of Denning's failure to consider the broader consequences of stuff he writes. Denning was also responsible for the truly bizarre Kelemvor stuff in Crucible: the Trial of Cyric the Mad that's also been mentioned in this thread.

    Even so, Kelemvor supposedly changed the wall to something different at the end of Crucible, though 5e apparently changed it back to the 'mortared in' version in Sword Coast Adventurer's guide (which is probably a result of insufficient lore mastery on the part of those authors).
    Now publishing a webnovel travelogue.

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  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: [Dragonlance/Faerun] Anyone here met any Cataclysm/Wall of the Faithless defender

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    Kelemvor supposedly changed the wall to something different at the end of Crucible, though 5e apparently changed it back to the 'mortared in' version in Sword Coast Adventurer's guide (which is probably a result of insufficient lore mastery on the part of those authors).
    I think that even in the 3e FRCS book (and Deities & Demigods) it's described the same way as in Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide.
    FRCS:

    All of the Faithless receive the same punishment: They form a living wall around the city of Judgment, held together by a supernatural green greenish mold. This mold prevents them from escaping the wall and eventually breaks down their substance until the soul and its consciousness are dissolved.

    So, whatever Kelemvor did at the end of Crucible, it didn't actually change the nature of the Wall to be different from Myrkul's version.
    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernPhoenix View Post
    My understanding is that, at least in all but the most strict takes on it, you don't need a cleric-lite patron deity. You literally just need to not deny the gods. Passively worshiping the pantheon you were brought up in like any normal person is generally enough.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    You don't even need a favorite god - you just need to acknowledge divine authority.
    Deities & Demigods explicitly stated that it worked this way - the faithless actively oppose worship.

    Deities & Demigods:

    In the Forgotten Realms campaign setting, for example, the souls of those with no patron deity are consigned to wander the Fugue Plain until they are either taken in by a merciful deity or captured by demon or devil raiders and drafted into service in their eternal war. The souls of the "faithless," those who actively oppose the worship of the gods, are bound into the living wall around the City of Judgment, from which they can never return.
    FRCS said that characters who "only paid lip service without truly believing" were Faithless though.

    FRCS:

    While most souls wander the Fugue Plane until their deity calls them, the Faithless and the False are compelled to enter the city of Judgment and be judged by Kelemvor. The Faithless firmly denied any faith or only gave lip service to the gods for most of their lives without truly believing. The False intentionally betrayed a faith they believed in and to which they had made a personal commitment.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2020-10-29 at 12:33 AM.
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  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: [Dragonlance/Faerun] Anyone here met any Cataclysm/Wall of the Faithless defender

    @Anymage

    1) Roy''s not a Forgotten Realms character. If you want to play for sympathy, at least see the trouble of finding a sympathetic Forgotten Realms character who ended up in the Wall.

    Also, Roy is best friends with and literally employs a cleric for divinely empowered healing, protection and success in war. I'd say that counts as lay worship and Thor could claim his soul easy peasy, if these were Forgotten Realms characters. If you disagree, then we can conclude that Roy'd go the Wall for being a hypocrite, because he's not actually very good at staying "out of the hair of" deities himself.

    2) It's a pretty common trope in real people's beliefs that some people will only behave properly (for whatever value of "proper") under threat of punishment even if there'd be other good reasons to behave. To a degree, we can show this true of real people, simply because not all people think further than their nose. Hence, some people abandoning faith because they're no longer being punished for being faithless is not particularly heavy-handed, because it's plausible. It still relies on authorial justification, but so do all other interactions of psychology with invented literary constructs.

    3) This part of your argument boils down to "I know now how my conservative grandma feels about my black metal album collection". Congratulations. Either go apologize to granny or realize that insensitivity towards some worldview is not in itself a cause for concern or even good critique of fiction.

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    Default Re: [Dragonlance/Faerun] Anyone here met any Cataclysm/Wall of the Faithless defender

    Quote Originally Posted by Vahnavoi View Post
    1) Roy''s not a Forgotten Realms character...
    There are clear differences between the stickverse and the realms. I don't expect a character in the latter to know what skill points are. Still, would the outlook that Roy expresses in the comic I linked be too out of place in another generic fantasy setting? If not, I think using him to explain a viewpoint is relevant.

    (I will grant that I may have misread/misremembered the difference between faithless and simply not having a patron deity. If all that happens to Roy is having to wander the fugue plane for a while until he can catch up with someone representing one of the northern gods, that's a lot more okay. It still has some very dumb bits, like people defecting from the worship of the gods en masse once they realize that they can be judged on their actions, but it isn't as over the top as punishing noncommittal religious apathy.)

    2) It's a pretty common trope in real people's beliefs that some people will only behave properly (for whatever value of "proper") under threat of punishment even if there'd be other good reasons to behave. To a degree, we can show this true of real people, simply because not all people think further than their nose. Hence, some people abandoning faith because they're no longer being punished for being faithless is not particularly heavy-handed, because it's plausible. It still relies on authorial justification, but so do all other interactions of psychology with invented literary constructs.
    It wasn't just a handful of stray souls that bucked the system. It was enough to cause major problems.

    I'm going to stay well away from the topic of whether a majority of people need the threat of punishment in order to stay in line, because that underpins a lot of very touchy subjects that could get get heated very quickly. I will say that works with such a strong philosophical bias are often quite controversial and often do get a lot of people heated. If that was the conscious intent of writing in the wall, the stance of the anti- side is completely understandable and expected.

    3) This part of your argument boils down to "I know now how my conservative grandma feels about my black metal album collection". Congratulations. Either go apologize to granny or realize that insensitivity towards some worldview is not in itself a cause for concern or even good critique of fiction.
    All I can do here is again point out that the fact that people within the setting don't care is not any defense against the fact that readers in the real world might care a lot. Discussions on related topics have generally devolved to the point of needing to be locked, so this is all I'm going to say on the matter.
    Last edited by Anymage; 2020-10-29 at 04:26 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Default Re: [Dragonlance/Faerun] Anyone here met any Cataclysm/Wall of the Faithless defender

    Quote Originally Posted by Vahnavoi View Post
    @Anymage

    1) Roy''s not a Forgotten Realms character. If you want to play for sympathy, at least see the trouble of finding a sympathetic Forgotten Realms character who ended up in the Wall.

    Also, Roy is best friends with and literally employs a cleric for divinely empowered healing, protection and success in war. I'd say that counts as lay worship and Thor could claim his soul easy peasy, if these were Forgotten Realms characters. If you disagree, then we can conclude that Roy'd go the Wall for being a hypocrite, because he's not actually very good at staying "out of the hair of" deities himself.

    2) It's a pretty common trope in real people's beliefs that some people will only behave properly (for whatever value of "proper") under threat of punishment even if there'd be other good reasons to behave. To a degree, we can show this true of real people, simply because not all people think further than their nose. Hence, some people abandoning faith because they're no longer being punished for being faithless is not particularly heavy-handed, because it's plausible. It still relies on authorial justification, but so do all other interactions of psychology with invented literary constructs.

    3) This part of your argument boils down to "I know now how my conservative grandma feels about my black metal album collection". Congratulations. Either go apologize to granny or realize that insensitivity towards some worldview is not in itself a cause for concern or even good critique of fiction.
    But we are not criticizing the fiction nor the authors of it and instead we are saying we would not want to support as moral the wall or the gods of that setting because they represent bad people and a bad thing.
    Saying "Dexter is an awful person" is not a critic of the author of the Dexter series nor saying that the series is bad: you can like that series about a murderer but still think the murderer is a bad person.
    So it is not the same thing as your grandma parallel: most of the authors probably did not think the wall was truly a good thing and that it should exist in real life. (and if one of them did think that having the wall in real life was a good thing then maybe I would not want to spend time with that individual but none of them are my grandma so I have no obligation to meet any of them)
    And you can like a fiction with awful things in it.
    So your parallel does not makes sense: the wall of the faithless is not my grandma and most of the authors of that setting would not want the wall to exist in real life and keep it in the setting not out of thinking it is the best and goodest thing ever but out of traditionalism. (Some will write "it is the best and goodest thing" because when they write the setting they realise they are writing for a fictional world with a morality system that is entirely alien to them)

    About people becoming faithless and false instantly when there is no punishment please note it included evil people who still risked being punished and who still preferred to behave and risk punishment from kelemvor over worshipping any god so it is not just the threat of punishment: it is also the size of the punishment and the odds of it and they are willing to take huge risks of having an huge punishment and also restrain their lifestyle(do less evil acts) rather than worship a god.

    So faithlessness/falseness is so attractive that people who stills risks having a punishment and can reduce that risk only through behaving nicely will still prefer those over the alternative.(so it is not just a matter of "no punishment then I will do whatever I want" it is "I want to do this enough for being willing to change my lifestyle and to still risk a punishment in order to do it")

    People from that setting prefer to follow the rule "behave good or be punished" over "worship a god or be punished" even when they know they have an hard time behaving good and that the best they can do is not behaving too evil while according to you an individual can worship a god without being even aware of it (so according to you doing the second thing is the easy choice)

    Roy did not pick a patron deity and anyway he is in a setting where there is many gods that are not awful persons or are even people with good intentions: many of them actually care about the people in the worlds they create.
    Had it been FR gods the world would have been nuked after nearly 100% of the gods voted for its annihilation within a span of 0.3 seconds due to how much they care about themselves over caring for the people.
    Last edited by noob; 2020-10-29 at 04:53 AM.

  10. - Top - End - #70
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    Default Re: [Dragonlance/Faerun] Anyone here met any Cataclysm/Wall of the Faithless defender

    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    But we are not criticizing the fiction nor the authors of it and instead we are saying we would not want to support as moral the wall or the gods of that setting because they represent bad people and a bad thing.
    Saying "Dexter is an awful person" is not a critic of the author of the Dexter series nor saying that the series is bad: you can like that series about a murderer but still think the murderer is a bad person.
    [Edit for brevity]
    Actually many of us *are* criticizing the fiction and the authors specifically.
    This is for two reasons;

    1: Appearing to 'push' a political belief by writing stories assuming it as fact.
    2: Lack of internal logic in the fiction.


    1. As you say, Dexter is an awful person. However the series 'Dexter' doesn't ever try to convince us that Dexter is a paragon of righteousness.
    This means that we can enjoy the series 'Dexter', and come to our own opinions on the character Dexter.

    By contrast there are a large number of stories which are based around pushing a particular viewpoint. One common method of doing this is by having that viewpoint be assumed correct in the story, with all 'good' characters assuming that viewpoint as fact, and the plot backing them up. For example, Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged" does this with Objectivism. Or Chick tracts...

    The Wall of the Faithless being treated by Kelemvor / Ao as the only viable option pushes the Forgotten Realms well towards this type of story.
    Where the underlying message is that people who don't obey the powerful entities (lower case 'gods') in charge of the Forgotten Realms *should* be sent to a fate arguably worse than Hell.
    And this is apparently morally right, since Kelemvor tried to fix it with his 'Wall of Mirrors' and it couldn't work. As told to us by 'Ao', the author insert... sorry, Overgod of the Realms. [It might have been all of the other gods instead of Ao... but that's basically the same situation]

    --

    2: The fiction is fundamentally illogical.

    The wall was created by an evil death god, Myrkul, fairly recently.
    It is not a fundamental part of the Forgotten Realms, since the previous death god Jergal didn't have it.
    However my understanding is that the overgod of the Forgotten Realms effectively forced Kelemvor to recreate the wall, since it was required for existence. That's a contradiction.

    Similarly, relatively few people seem to actually *care* about the wall.
    A wall literally sending people to Oblivion, where people are choosing to go to Hell as a better option.

    No backlash from good gods, no attempts to escape the forgotten realms via mass plane shifts, and the only serious attempts to take it down are in non-canon sources (Balder's Gate).
    This should be the major issue for most Chaotic Good organizations in the Realms - a decree from all high that forces innocents into Oblivion.

    I can imagine settings where an equivalent afterlife would work - Eberron has Dolurrh, and entire organizations set up to try to avoid or adapt to it (The Silver Flame, The Undying Court, The Blood of Vol).
    Ravenloft has a very similar afterlife with people slowly melting into the Mists. Warhammer 40k has most souls being devoured by demons.

    However the Forgotten Realms is meant to be more heroic, less cosmic horror.

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    Default Re: [Dragonlance/Faerun] Anyone here met any Cataclysm/Wall of the Faithless defender

    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    But we are not criticizing the fiction nor the authors of it and instead we are saying we would not want to support as moral the wall or the gods of that setting because they represent bad people and a bad thing.
    You might not be criticizing the fiction or its authors; two out of three of Anymage's specific points refer to the authors and writers of the setting and raise questions of their motives. Others in this thread have also directly critiqued the authors, the overall point being that criticism of these concept runs the whole gamut from moral to literary. There is no plural "you", no "us", no "we", no unified front to the criticism.

    Quote Originally Posted by noob
    Saying "Dexter is an awful person" is not a critic of the author of the Dexter series nor saying that the series is bad: you can like that series about a murderer but still think the murderer is a bad person.
    You think I disagree?

    Quote Originally Posted by noob
    So it is not the same thing as your grandma parallel: most of the authors probably did not think the wall was truly a good thing and that it should exist in real life.
    It's pretty clear that you didn't get the joke and explaining it would kill it, so I won't bother.

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    Default Re: [Dragonlance/Faerun] Anyone here met any Cataclysm/Wall of the Faithless defender

    Quote Originally Posted by kalkyrie View Post
    Actually many of us *are* criticizing the fiction and the authors specifically.
    This is for two reasons;

    1: Appearing to 'push' a political belief by writing stories assuming it as fact.
    2: Lack of internal logic in the fiction.


    1. As you say, Dexter is an awful person. However the series 'Dexter' doesn't ever try to convince us that Dexter is a paragon of righteousness.
    This means that we can enjoy the series 'Dexter', and come to our own opinions on the character Dexter.

    By contrast there are a large number of stories which are based around pushing a particular viewpoint. One common method of doing this is by having that viewpoint be assumed correct in the story, with all 'good' characters assuming that viewpoint as fact, and the plot backing them up. For example, Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged" does this with Objectivism. Or Chick tracts...

    The Wall of the Faithless being treated by Kelemvor / Ao as the only viable option pushes the Forgotten Realms well towards this type of story.
    Where the underlying message is that people who don't obey the powerful entities (lower case 'gods') in charge of the Forgotten Realms *should* be sent to a fate arguably worse than Hell.
    And this is apparently morally right, since Kelemvor tried to fix it with his 'Wall of Mirrors' and it couldn't work. As told to us by 'Ao', the author insert... sorry, Overgod of the Realms. [It might have been all of the other gods instead of Ao... but that's basically the same situation]

    --

    2: The fiction is fundamentally illogical.

    The wall was created by an evil death god, Myrkul, fairly recently.
    It is not a fundamental part of the Forgotten Realms, since the previous death god Jergal didn't have it.
    However my understanding is that the overgod of the Forgotten Realms effectively forced Kelemvor to recreate the wall, since it was required for existence. That's a contradiction.

    Similarly, relatively few people seem to actually *care* about the wall.
    A wall literally sending people to Oblivion, where people are choosing to go to Hell as a better option.

    No backlash from good gods, no attempts to escape the forgotten realms via mass plane shifts, and the only serious attempts to take it down are in non-canon sources (Balder's Gate).
    This should be the major issue for most Chaotic Good organizations in the Realms - a decree from all high that forces innocents into Oblivion.

    I can imagine settings where an equivalent afterlife would work - Eberron has Dolurrh, and entire organizations set up to try to avoid or adapt to it (The Silver Flame, The Undying Court, The Blood of Vol).
    Ravenloft has a very similar afterlife with people slowly melting into the Mists. Warhammer 40k has most souls being devoured by demons.

    However the Forgotten Realms is meant to be more heroic, less cosmic horror.
    I agree :I should not have used we.
    I should have told I.
    I just faced so many fictions that shoehorned awfully bad stuff as being good stuff that I got used to not let it influence me too much. (that is until I have to add a character to it because I like characters that does not have excessively alien systems of virtue)
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    I don't get why people see the Wall as an example of "cosmic horror", at all. If anything I think it just showcases the hypocrisy and fallability of the gods, which has been a pretty common theme throughout Forgotten Realms history. As I mentioned earlier, they're not manifestations of their alignments, in the Forgotten Realms they're people, with virtues and vices alike. The good gods may have more virtues than vices, but they're far from perfect. There are examples all throughout Forgotten Realms fiction, but again I point to the Time of Troubles as the perfect example during which only a handful of gods maintained some kind of divine dignity while the rest devolved into squabbles, murder, crusades, the works.

    Forgotten Realms is heroic fantasy for sure, and I really don't think a minor element such as the Wall does anything to undermine that. If it has any effect, which for the most part it doesn't, it just provides an extra incentive for mortal heroes to rebel against one of the greatest injustices in Realmspace, as per Mask of the Betrayer (which everyone should play). I came into this thread with no strong feelings about the wall, but the more we've talked about it, the more I enjoy that it's there. It's a beacon of imperfection in the system, which I greatly prefer to the idea of a perfect afterlife.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warder View Post
    I don't get why people see the Wall as an example of "cosmic horror", at all. If anything I think it just showcases the hypocrisy and fallability of the gods, which has been a pretty common theme throughout Forgotten Realms history.
    What part of "the guys in charge of our cosmology are fallible hypocrites" isn't horrifying?

    Let's compare and contrast with H. P. Lovecraft. A lot of his cosmic horror can be summarized in three sentences: "god-like beings exist but they don't care about you", "you are insignificant and doomed to be forgotten in grand scheme of things" and "sealife and race mixing are icky".

    It should be obvious how the first two apply to the Wall and various other screw-ups of Faerun's gods. The third one has no relevance, unless you want to talk about Illithids.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vahnavoi View Post
    What part of "the guys in charge of our cosmology are fallible hypocrites" isn't horrifying?

    Let's compare and contrast with H. P. Lovecraft. A lot of his cosmic horror can be summarized in three sentences: "god-like beings exist but they don't care about you", "you are insignificant and doomed to be forgotten in grand scheme of things" and "sealife and race mixing are icky".

    It should be obvious how the first two apply to the Wall and various other screw-ups of Faerun's gods. The third one has no relevance, unless you want to talk about Illithids.
    Yeah, absolutely! But for nearly everyone in the Forgotten Realms none of that ever comes into play. Their relationship with the gods have nothing to do with the Wall, they don't know about it and aren't affected by it in any way. Zooming out a little to the actual game table, the Wall doesn't touch on the average FR campaign in any way either. In that respect, it's a very minor plotpoint, and certainly nothing that elevates heroic fantasy to cosmic horror levels.

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    Yes, the setting's big enough that you never need to run into or dwell on any individual horror. I could make the same argument you're making of the Wall, about something more popular or central, like the Underdark. Nothing compels you to run a game about fleeing from tentacled brain-eating monsters and crazy spider people in dark bowels of the earth, but all the elements to do that are still present.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warder View Post
    Yeah, absolutely! But for nearly everyone in the Forgotten Realms none of that ever comes into play. Their relationship with the gods have nothing to do with the Wall, they don't know about it and aren't affected by it in any way. Zooming out a little to the actual game table, the Wall doesn't touch on the average FR campaign in any way either. In that respect, it's a very minor plotpoint, and certainly nothing that elevates heroic fantasy to cosmic horror levels.
    It's a minor, insignificant piece of the cosmology that practically none of the mortal denizens know about. Up until the moment that the current god of death says "y'know, this is kinda sucky" and removes it. At which point enough people become atheists (and not just disinterested, but actively antitheist since that's what it took to get thrown into the wall) to disrupt the cosmos, and other divine forces (which I'm not clear on whether that includes the overgod or not) pressure him until he puts it back.
    Last edited by Anymage; 2020-10-29 at 08:30 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anymage View Post
    It's a minor, insignificant piece of the cosmology that practically none of the mortal denizens know about. Up until the moment that the current god of death says "y'know, this is kinda sucky" and removes it. At which point enough people become atheists (and not just disinterested, but actively antitheist since that's what it took to get thrown into the wall) to disrupt the cosmos, and other divine forces (which I'm not clear on whether that includes the overgod or not) pressure him until he puts it back.
    Why do people keep repeating this? It wasnt the absence of the wall, it was the fact that Kelemvor was playing favorites with the souls of dead people in his care. Not all of them were Faithless or False.

    Notably, when he went back and re-evaluated everybody, most of the souls didnt get tossed into the wall, they just got moved to a less cushy (or horrible) afterlife. His whole realm became less extreme, but also he clearly had many souls that didnt qualify for the wall that were still going to him.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by RifleAvenger View Post
    Demons, for their part, can steal souls out of the wall, drag them back to the Abyss, and forcibly convert the souls into demons. Regardless of their alignment in life.

    Think about how ****ed that is.
    Wait a second. Those demons were stealing from the wall? I thought the wall stopped them from stealing from the Gods' private afterlives, but they found a way past it! I mean, it's ****ty protect people you're friends with using people without powerful friends, but at least it was something I understood. But without that it's weirdly unjustified and callous. I had to make up a headcanon just to encode the memory.

    And the Cataclysm was stupid, but the Krynn Gods make decisions by committee, and Good is Stupid. Or at least, Paladine will give people second chances to a fault, and the other gods will outvote him to nuke that epic caster known as The KingPriest from orbit once time is short enough that it's effectively a choice between 2 genocides, one of The KingPriest's choice, or one where the casualties are spread among all creeds. So it is stupid, evil, unnecessary, and completely in character.

    In the third? fourth? trilogy, Takhisis and Paladine became mortals, so Gilian the Neutral might get rid of committees.
    yo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spriteless View Post
    Wait a second. Those demons were stealing from the wall? I thought the wall stopped them from stealing from the Gods' private afterlives, but they found a way past it! I mean, it's ****ty protect people you're friends with using people without powerful friends, but at least it was something I understood. But without that it's weirdly unjustified and callous. I had to make up a headcanon just to encode the memory.
    Fiends can steal them from the Fugue Plane, before they're claimed by their deity.
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    Default Re: [Dragonlance/Faerun] Anyone here met any Cataclysm/Wall of the Faithless defender

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    Fiends can steal them from the Fugue Plane, before they're claimed by their deity.
    Kelemvor should ask Mystra how she and her predecessors / previous incarnations moved Dweomerheart from Limbo to Mechanus and then to Elysium.

    It would sure be nice if unjudged souls didn't have to wait in Hades or anywhere near the Lower Planes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RifleAvenger View Post
    Demons, for their part, can steal souls out of the wall, drag them back to the Abyss, and forcibly convert the souls into demons. Regardless of their alignment in life.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spriteless View Post
    Wait a second. Those demons were stealing from the wall? I thought the wall stopped them from stealing from the Gods' private afterlives, but they found a way past it!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    Fiends can steal them from the Fugue Plane, before they're claimed by their deity.

    Devils bargain with souls on the Fugue Plane. Demons steal them from the Wall, and from the City of Judgment.

    Page 258-259 of FRCS.

    Spoiler: Devils
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    Within the Fugue Plane lurk small enclaves of baatezu. By agreement with Kelemvor, they cannot harm or trick the waiting souls. However, the devils are allowed to explain to the souls that they are dead and awaiting the arrival of a divine messenger to take them back to their deity's realm. At this point, the devils attempt to bargain with souls.
    ...
    In exchange for consigning themselves to the Nine Hells, souls may be offered early promotions from lemure to another form of devil, material riches for friends or family back on Faerun, or the execution of devilish attacks on their still-living enemies. Exceptionally powerful souls may bargain for automatic transformation into something other than a lemure.


    Spoiler: Demons
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    While the lawful baatezu have a contract with Kelemvor that allows them to acquire souls, the chaotic tanar'ri employ another method. They steal them. From time to time, a demon ruler creates a portal between the Abyss and the Fugue Plane. Dozens of servitor demons spill through the opening to claw a hole in the the wall of the Faithless, tearing some of the doomed free to be brought back to the Abyss. The demons then raid the city, gathering as many souls as they can before retreating.


    That said, Deities & Demigods does suggest that those with no patron deity, yet who do not qualify as Faithless either, can end up captured by a demon or devil raiding party. Presumably, "raiding party" for devils, means "bargaining party" and for demons, the raiding party has come through a portal on the way to rip a hole in the Wall, stumbled across a wandering patron-less soul, and swept them up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Why do people keep repeating this? It wasnt the absence of the wall, it was the fact that Kelemvor was playing favorites with the souls of dead people in his care. Not all of them were Faithless or False.

    Notably, when he went back and re-evaluated everybody, most of the souls didnt get tossed into the wall, they just got moved to a less cushy (or horrible) afterlife. His whole realm became less extreme, but also he clearly had many souls that didnt qualify for the wall that were still going to him.
    Yes, all of them were either Faithless, False, or his own worshippers. Plenty of souls that "didn't qualify for the Wall" were False.


    Anyone who Kelemvor has judged has to fall into any of these three categories. He's not allowed to judge anyone else - that's for their own patrons to do.


    The "less cushy and less horrible" afterlives in the City of Judgment, were for the False. Kelemvor was, early on, rewarding the nice False and punishing the nasty False (which was why it was a problem - it encouraged nice people to be False), but then he toned it down.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2020-10-30 at 02:27 AM.
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    Default Re: [Dragonlance/Faerun] Anyone here met any Cataclysm/Wall of the Faithless defender

    My problem with the Wall of the Faithless is that it makes difficult not to see the gods as selfish, self-serving evil parasites: Ao wasn't forcing Kelemvor to put people in the Wall, the Greater Deities are the ones pushing him to keep the whole False and Faithless system...

    Evil deities made a minority among the Greater Deities, Good and Neutral ones could have supported Kelemvor, but most of the Greater Deities were okay with the status quo because it benefited them...

    And, do you know what pisses me most? Most Faerunian deities aren't good fits for average people... there isn't a default "God for otherwise normal folk who just try to be decent, normal people", like say Pelor or Paladine, in Faerun... The closest I can think is Chauntea, but even she demands that peasants be utterly dedicated to their job, she is no goddess for people who just work to survive (who sometimes work the land but may become logger, or a miner, or a digger or a builder, whatever they need to do to earn money...) They keep the False and Faithless system because they aren't attractive enough on their own for average folk who just carry on with their lives...

    As for the Cataclysm, it highlights how messed up and warped the whole Krynnian Good/Neutrality/Evil system is... Good and Evil aren't good and evil, they are cosmic factions... you can be a narcissistic genocidal racist tyrant and still align with Good because you worship the right gods, and you can be a mostly likeable and honorable dude and still serve an Evil deity.

    I suspect Dragonlance designers thought that the Good faction was supposed to be something like the Church, with Crusades, Witch Hunts and Wars of Religion all included... which is stupid, because people who go around slaughtering and burning innocent, harmless civilians are obviously evil, no matter whose deity they worship, and in a world like Krynn, where Good gods actually communicate with their worshipers, they should be able to draw lines "Don't do that! That's evil...!"
    Last edited by Clistenes; 2020-10-31 at 05:00 PM.

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    Default Re: [Dragonlance/Faerun] Anyone here met any Cataclysm/Wall of the Faithless defender

    Personally always liked the Wall of the Faithless.

    A lot of it will be DM interpretation etc but in principle the Gods want(more recently need) worship and the wall is a fair way of encouraging people to worship gods without it being biased against any side.

    The people who seems to have a problem with it seems to think that good people should get a good afterlife and bad people should get a bad one - which is all fine, but does make the gods and their edicts and dogmas a bit irrelevant, which for a god heavy setting like Forgotten Realms would seem a shame.

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    Dragonlance makes more sense if you keep in mind that it came at the tail end of 1st Edition AD&D. As originally envisioned in AD&D:

    1) True Neutral is as much about preserving the natural world and avoiding extremism, as its about balancing Good and Evil acts.
    2) The natural world is not of any extreme alignment.
    3) Humans are not generally good; humans have no general alignment tendency at all.

    The corollary to that is that taking any extreme Alignment (Lawful Good, Lawful Evil, Chaotic Good, Chaotic Evil) to its logical conclusion perforce means eliminating the natural world and majority of humans.

    There was also an idea at a point that the best Alignment from real life perspective is not Lawful Good - it's True Neutral, because that's closest to world as it is without literal angels and demons. This is also the root of the idea that real humans are mostly Neutral.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    Personally always liked the Wall of the Faithless.

    A lot of it will be DM interpretation etc but in principle the Gods want(more recently need) worship and the wall is a fair way of encouraging people to worship gods without it being biased against any side.

    The people who seems to have a problem with it seems to think that good people should get a good afterlife and bad people should get a bad one - which is all fine, but does make the gods and their edicts and dogmas a bit irrelevant, which for a god heavy setting like Forgotten Realms would seem a shame.
    The Kalamar setting has something similar, the Plane of Annihilation. Souls of atheists or of people no deity will claim are dropped into the Plane of Annihilation, which destroys them, but it is less controversial than the Wall of the Faithless because:

    1.-It was created by their Overgod, a huge jerkhole troll who allows Godwars because he is bored and he likes to see the suckers fight...

    2.-The gods themselves hate the Plane of Annihilation and would love to get rid of it, because it grows every time it devours a soul, shrinking the home planes of the deities themselves.

    3.-Since the gods themselves hate the Plane of Annihilation, they try to toss as few souls as they can... they will save as many as they are able... Of course, they can still treat like crap a soul that worshiped a deity but behave in counter to that deity's tenets.

    4.-I find it easier for normal, average people to find a deity that fits... I mean, they have a deity that is all about taking care of your family (the Holy Mother), another that is all about living in peace (the Peacemaker), others that are about stuff like Happiness, Hope, Harmony, Love ...etc. They don't demand that you focus on developing a skill and on an occupation or on following a strict code of behavior. Every person who is a decent parent qualifies to become a follower of the Holy Mother, everybody who tries to stay out of trouble and live decently qualifies to become a follower of the Peacemaker, everybody who tries to be free and live happily qualifies to be a follower of the Guardian..etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clistenes View Post
    And, do you know what pisses me most? Most Faerunian deities aren't good fits for average people... there isn't a default "God for otherwise normal folk who just try to be decent, normal people", like say Pelor or Paladine, in Faerun... The closest I can think is Chauntea, but even she demands that peasants be utterly dedicated to their job, she is no goddess for people who just work to survive (who sometimes work the land but may become logger, or a miner, or a digger or a builder, whatever they need to do to earn money...) They keep the False and Faithless system because they aren't attractive enough on their own for average folk who just carry on with their lives...

    I don't think that's true, since the FR has so many gods there's bound to be one dedicated to whatever a given person is "about". And even if there's not, you don't need cleric style devotion to one or a few gods to avoid the wall. In fact, most people in the setting are not monotheists, but pray to all the gods which are relevant to their life. You just need to acknowledge the gods in general and not deny them. Anyone who just prays for rain when they want rain and sun when they want sun is doing enough. "Normal folk" who are at sea a bunch (fishermen or traders) usually pray to Umberlee more than once, for example, even if they're miles and miles in morality from being a mad cleric who wants to summon tidal waves or whatever.
    Last edited by NorthernPhoenix; 2020-10-31 at 04:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernPhoenix View Post
    I don't think that's true, since the FR has so many gods there's bound to be one dedicated to whatever a given person is "about". And even if there's not, you don't need cleric style devotion to one or a few gods to avoid the wall.
    You do need a patron to avoid "wandering the Fugue plane until demons or devils capture you" though (that is, if devils are allowed to simply kidnap the outright patron-less, and bargaining is only required for those with patrons). Still, it may be that a character can have a patron and be unaware of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by RifleAvenger View Post
    Alternative reality Drizzt, who decided all gods blew after his experience with Lloth, but accomplished everything else he did in life and died CG, would have ended up in the Wall. Then Lloth could have sent some servants over to drag his soul before her after all. While Kelemvor shrugs and the "Good" gods look on.
    Drizzt actually asserts that he will "follow no god" - but Montolio, his ranger mentor, convinces him that he's followed Mielikki all his life, even if he's never heard her name before until now.

    Spoiler: Dark Elf Trilogy book 3: Sojourn
    Show
    “Who is your god, drow?” Montolio asked. In all the weeks he and Drizzt had been together, they had not really discussed religion.
    “I have no god,” Drizzt answered boldly, “and neither do I want one.”
    It was Montolio’s turn to pause.
    Drizzt rose and walked off a few paces.
    “My people follow Lloth,” he began. “She, if not the cause, is surely the continuation of their wickedness, as this Gruumsh is to the orcs, and as other gods are to other peoples. To follow a god is folly. I shall follow my heart instead.”
    Montolio’s quiet chuckle stole the power from Drizzt’s proclamation. “You have a god, Drizzt Do’Urden,” he said.
    “My god is my heart,” Drizzt declared, turning back to him.
    “As is mine.”
    “You named your god as Mielikki,” Drizzt protested.
    “And you have not found a name for your god yet,” Montolio shot back. “That does not mean that you have no god. Your
    god is your heart, and what does your heart tell you?”
    “I do not know,” Drizzt admitted after considering the troubling question.
    “Think then!” Montolio cried. “What did your instincts tell you of the gnoll band, or of the farmers in Maldobar? Lloth is not your deity—that much is certain. What god or goddess then fits that which is in Drizzt Do’Urden’s heart?”
    Montolio could almost hear Drizzt’s continuing shrugs.
    “You do not know?” the old ranger asked. “But I do.”
    “You presume much,” Drizzt replied, still not convinced.
    “I observe much,” Montolio said with a laugh. “Are you of like heart with Guenhwyvar?”
    “I have never doubted that fact,” Drizzt answered honestly.
    “Guenhwyvar follows Mielikki.”
    “How can you know?” Drizzt argued, growing a bit perturbed. He didn’t mind Montolio’s presumptions about him, but Drizzt considered such labeling an attack on the panther. Somehow to Drizzt, Guenhwyvar seemed to be above gods and all the implications of following one.
    “How can I know?” Montolio echoed incredulously. “The cat told me, of course! Guenhwyvar is the entity of the panther, a creature of Mielikki’s domain.”
    “Guenhwyvar does not need your labels,” Drizzt retorted angrily, moving briskly to sit again beside the ranger.
    “Of course not,” Montolio agreed. “But that does not change the fact of it. You do not understand, Drizzt Do’Urden. You grew up among the perversion of a deity.”
    “And yours is the true one?” Drizzt asked sarcastically.
    “They are all true, and they are all one, I fear,” Montolio replied. Drizzt had to agree with Montolio’s earlier observation: He did not understand.
    “You view the gods as entities without,” Montolio tried to explain. “You see them as physical beings trying to control our actions for their own ends, and thus you, in your stubborn independence, reject them. The gods are within, I say, whether one has named his own or not. You have followed Mielikki all of your life, Drizzt. You merely never had a name to put on your heart.”
    Suddenly Drizzt was more intrigued than skeptical.
    “What did you feel when you first walked out of the Underdark?” Montolio asked. “What did your heart tell you when first you looked upon the sun or the stars, or the forest green?”
    Drizzt thought back to that distant day, when he and his drow patrol had come out of the Underdark to raid an elven gathering. Those were painful memories, but within them loomed one sense of comfort, one memory of wondrous elation at the feel of the wind and the scents of newly bloomed flowers.
    “And how did you talk to Bluster?” Montolio continued. “No easy feat, sharing a cave with that bear! Admit it or not, you’ve the heart of a ranger. And the heart of a ranger is a heart of Mielikki.”
    So formal a conclusion brought back a measure of Drizzt’s doubts. “And what does your goddess require?” he asked, the angry edge returned to his voice. He began to stand again, but Montolio slapped a hand over his legs and held him down.
    “Require?” The ranger laughed. “I am no missionary spreading a fine word and imposing rules of behavior! Did I not just tell you that gods are within? You know Mielikki’s rules as well as I. You have been following them all of your life. I offer you a name for it, that is all, and an ideal of behavior personified, an example that you might follow in times that you stray from what you know is true.”
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2020-10-31 at 04:24 PM.
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    Default Re: [Dragonlance/Faerun] Anyone here met any Cataclysm/Wall of the Faithless defender

    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernPhoenix View Post
    I don't think that's true, since the FR has so many gods there's bound to be one dedicated to whatever a given person is "about". And even if there's not, you don't need cleric style devotion to one or a few gods to avoid the wall. In fact, most people in the setting are not monotheists, but pray to all the gods which are relevant to their life. You just need to acknowledge the gods in general and not deny them. Anyone who just prays for rain when they want rain and sun when they want sun is doing enough. "Normal folk" who are at sea a bunch (fishermen or traders) usually pray to Umberlee more than once, for example, even if they're miles and miles in morality from being a mad cleric who wants to summon tidal waves or whatever.
    You can pray for someone to stop the rain but it does not make of them your patron god if you are unable to feel respect toward them because of their betrayal or mass murder during the times of troubles.
    You have to actively pick a specific god rather than worshipping equally a few gods: the rules say "you go to the afterlife of your patron god" not "to the afterlife of one of the gods you worship".
    So your interpretation does not fits the rules.
    Also some rules specifies you can worship only gods that are allowed for your class or your race which makes it much harder to pick the right deity for many individuals.
    Last edited by noob; 2020-10-31 at 04:28 PM.

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    Default Re: [Dragonlance/Faerun] Anyone here met any Cataclysm/Wall of the Faithless defender

    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    You can pray for someone to stop the rain but it does not make of them your patron god if you are unable to feel respect toward them because of their betrayal or mass murder during the times of troubles.
    You have to actively pick a specific god rather than worshipping equally a few gods: the rules say "you go to the afterlife of your patron god" not "to the afterlife of one of the gods you worship".
    So your interpretation does not fits the rules.
    If you don't have a specific patron god, you go to a plane appropriate to your alignment. Only if you're specifically an atheist who denies the gods do you go to the wall.

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    You do need a patron to avoid "wandering the Fugue plane until demons or devils capture you" though (that is, if devils are allowed to simply kidnap the outright patron-less, and bargaining is only required for those with patrons). Still, it may be that a character can have a patron and be unaware of it.
    You do need a patron (aware or not) to skip the line VIP style, but that doesn't mean everyone get's ambushed while waiting in line. Most people don't.
    Last edited by NorthernPhoenix; 2020-10-31 at 04:28 PM.

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