Superman Vs. Homelander

[dancrilis]

I see Batman immediately trying to save him, then Batman being human but still not giving in. I don't see him killing. I don't see him trying to kill.

My point (such as it is a point) was more that he kicked a man into a pool of alligators - and yes he tried to save him but if the man had tried to grab his hand and failed and then been eaten I think it would be fair to say 'Batman killed that guy', and when he thought that was the case his response was not 'what have I done!' and more 'he deserved that'.

You can't "gotcha" me with a clip. TAS is among the best I've ever seen Batman consistently portrayed, but if you can dredge up a clip of him killing someone on there, I'll be the first to decry that episode. It's not going to make me change my stance. It's just going to make me dislike that rendition of Batman.

The closest I can think of to this actually happening (for normal humans* at least) would be where Justice Lords Batman allows Justice Lords Superman to kill the Lex Luthor of that world - and that version of Batman was still a fair bit morally above the rest of the Justice Lords.

[Peelee]

My point (such as it is a point) was more that he kicked a man into a pool of alligators - and yes he tried to save him but if the man had tried to grab his hand and failed and then been eaten I think it would be fair to say 'Batman killed that guy', and when he thought that was the case his response was not 'what have I done!' and more 'he deserved that'.

I got that, and I should have addressed it better myself. Batman saved himself. That was the single most important priority. Self-preservation is a hell of a thing to overcome even if you're not a super-genius detective ninja. He saved himself the only way he could. He then immediately, without any hesitation whatsoever, tried to save the man who has just tried to kill him.

This wasn't pushing other people out of the way to get into a lifeboat on a sinking ship. This was the only way he could possibly not die. It was a full-on you-or-me, where he wasn't the one forcing that situation. Self-defense is different. But here's the kicker: even then he still tries to save the guy. If you give Batman a "you die or he dies" scenario, Batman picks option 3: Batman lives, then tries to save the other. Binary choice be damned.

TAS did right by Batman.

[Sapphire Guard]

Homelander would not care about the legalities... but Lex would factor that into his plans and plot his downfall while avoiding face to face confrontations.

On Batman rules, I'm not familiar with that comic. I've heard of it, but have we the internal monologue somewhere? It may be that Bats is factoring in the effect saying that may have on Lex.

Yeah, the Batman Begins deal is just rules lawyering.

Why doesn't he kill the Joker is never really a good question. Mr J's kill count isn't much higher than the rest of his rogues gallery (and is well below the likes of Ra's, maybe Bane, sometimes Ivy and Scarecrow.) The only difference is he occasionally randomly kills his own men. He's not special.

Batman tries, to the absolute best of his abilities, not to kill people, but he's aware that other people are not Batman, so if Gordon has to shoot someone in self defence by virtue of not having non lethal options, Bats won't hold it against him.

[Ramza00]

Spoiler: This is how Batman should act with his code

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Anything less than that doesn't fly, as far as I'm concerned. Various Batman's in the hands of various authors have done worse. I disagree with those. That is my Batman. TAS Batman is my Batman. Gandalf's "Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them?" is my Batman.

But that is healthy Batman, one with friends, equals, where he open himself up to vulnerability and support systems.

But there are other forms of Batman, with toxic Bat Family dynamics, and even less healthy Batman where he is the loner and he is more compulsive in his death drive eternal quest with Gotham, re-enacting the death of his parents except now he has power for he is costumed and 30s and not an 8 year old boy visiting the place of the other a night on the town as a child full of wonder.

Healthy Batman that you identify Peelee is him open himself up to vulnerability, allowing the stranger and fear to wash over him and he is a parent to Ace during this time of the unknown. He is literally what he needed as an 8 year old. Thus best Bruce.

[Peelee]

But that is healthy Batman, one with friends, equals, where he open himself up to vulnerability and support systems.

But there are other forms of Batman, with toxic Bat Family dynamics, and even less healthy Batman where he is the loner and he is more compulsive in his death drive eternal quest with Gotham, re-enacting the death of his parents except now he has power for he is costumed and 30s and not an 8 year old boy visiting the place of the other a night on the town as a child full of wonder.

Healthy Batman that you identify Peelee is him open himself up to vulnerability, allowing the stranger and fear to wash over him and he is a parent to Ace during this time of the unknown. He is literally what he needed as an 8 year old. Thus best Bruce.

Huh. I never thought about it like that, but yeah, you're totally right.

I like healthy Batman.

[Ramza00]

Huh. I never thought about it like that, but yeah, you're totally right.

I like healthy Batman.

As do I.

For example the scene in Justice League where Batman is in Guerrilla City and he thinks Wonder Woman has died and he is trying to save her / unbury her not sure if she is alive or dead under rubble. Then we see Diana is alive, and she notices his dirty hands which he quickly hides behind his cowl for he realizes he is vulnerable. This type of Bruce is interesting. Healthy vulnerable Batman is also the most generous, charitable, forgiving, kind, and empathizing Batman, unhealthy Batman is a person I would not like to know.

[Bartmanhomer]

I like Batman. Batman is very compassionate and empathetic.

[Mystic Muse]

I like Batman. Batman is very compassionate and empathetic.

Unless you like punk music.

He thinks Punk is nothing but death, crime, and the RAAAAAAAGE of the beast!

(It's really funny how blatant people get with thrusting their own beliefs into characters where they do not work.)

[Bartmanhomer]

Unless you like punk music.

He thinks Punk is nothing but death, crime, and the RAAAAAAAGE of the beast!

(It's really funny how blatant people get with thrusting their own beliefs into characters where they do not work.)

I get the joke. Funny. Punk music isn't my cup of tea though.

[Traab]

As do I.

For example the scene in Justice League where Batman is in Guerrilla City and he thinks Wonder Woman has died and he is trying to save her / unbury her not sure if she is alive or dead under rubble. Then we see Diana is alive, and she notices his dirty hands which he quickly hides behind his cowl for he realizes he is vulnerable. This type of Bruce is interesting. Healthy vulnerable Batman is also the most generous, charitable, forgiving, kind, and empathizing Batman, unhealthy Batman is a person I would not like to know.

Yeah that batman is awesome. He is gruff, stern, stoic, and all of that hard nosed behavior you expect from the terror that flaps in the night. But he CARES. He cares so deeply its incredible when you get to see those rare flashes. He cares for his children, every member of the bat clan. He cares for the league who are, at least the senior council members, his friends, or more family to him. He would rather that nobody ever see that as he knows it can be used against him. "Oh so you care about robin ey? I wonder what would happen if I, i dunno, beat him to death with a crowbar then blew him up?" (Not sure why such a random scenario popped into my head) And he also hates showing any vulnerability. But its there. I also liked the start of batman beyond. Where bruce retired because he picked up a gun to threaten a thug with due to his heart issues nearly getting him killed. The second he got out of there he swore never again, and stuck to it. Because he knew he was an inch from being forced to shoot someone or die himself. He hung up his suit and stopped.

[Ramza00]

I wonder, can anyone tell me when it was that batman stopped killing people? Classic batman killed PLENTY of people, mooks especially. There was one comic where he basically hung a big mental aptient a bad guy had doped up on drugs with a cable from the bat plane while he flew off. His very first comic he literally punched a fat dude into a vat of acid. Another dude in a later comic threw a sword at him, batman used a door to block it, then punched the guy as he begged for mercy neck first into his own sword. In another detective comic he dodged a gunman trying to shoot him, the proceeded to break his neck by kicking him so hard in the head his neck snapped. These were all in the first year or so of his creation. A lot of the others were alternate versions so dont count, but im honestly curious to know when they established "no killing, no, not even then." as his mantra.

This is complicated but let me give you the rough idea.

Batman was first introduced in the Detective Comics in 1939. He was such a popular character that he got his own spin off in 1940 (Batman Vol 1 issue 1.) Likewise there was a 2nd spin off in 1941 with World Finest Comics. At the same time Robin (**** Grayson) was almost always as old as Batman for he was introduced in Detective Comics in 1940 (so a year after), and was in Batman Vol 1 #1 in 1940, and World Finest Comics with Superman, Batman, and **** in 1941 (focusing on these 3 characters.)

When Batman is first introduced in Detective Comics he used guns and flats out murder people. Yet editors of DC behind the scenes were already reformulating the character by 1940. Batman still is murdering people with Guns in 1940 in Batman Vol 1 and by issue 4 (labeled Winter 1940 but not released until mid January 1941) Batman now sometimes uses the opponents guns against them but never shoots to kill. See editor's note.

Spoiler: Editor's Note in 1941

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Note there are contradictory stories which editor decided Batman should not use Guns but after that 1941 issue we see the amount of gun use dramatically decrease.

That said Batman was still killing via other means in the 1940s like throwing people off buildings, including a time a person was literally hanged. It was a very "pulpy" time in the 1940s with grim and dark. Yet that Batman #4 issue in 1941, in a different comic of this same anthology we hear Batman tell Robin to try not to kill via using the non sharp end of the blade when fighting villains while sword fighting.

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The Silver Age Batman more or less started in 1954 and 1955 with Seduction of the Innocent where psychiatrist Fredric Wertham, was corrupting the youth in various ways such as making them gay (see famous Batman and Robin picture with them in the same bed) and making the violent and so on. Fredric Wertham even had a congressional hearing for this was the time of the Red Scare and also the other politics of the Era tied to the Baby Boom.

Thus we see two things happen with Batman.

A) Batman becomes more sci-fi and "kids friendly" with things like Batmite and so on. The style of the silver age of Batman comics is different than the darker more gritty crime fighter of the 1939 to early 1950s. Note the sales of Batman was already going down in the late 1940s and early 1950s for "pulp comics were no longer in fashion."

B) 2nd the Comic Industry decided to self-censor itself with the adoption of the Comic Code Authority, something similar to the Hay's Code.

Here is the list of the rules of the CCA with 1954 http://cbldf.org/the-comics-code-of-1954/ Note there is not a single CCA for it got revisions at later dates notably 1971 and 1989. But the 1954 code would not allow Batman to throw people off buildings and so on. The heroes must be heroic and the villains must always lose and their plans thwarted. Crime can never be fun it must be seen as unpleasant and sordid. Authority figures such as Cops, Judges, Mayors, etc should always be presented in a light that elicits respect and is not disrespectful. No gay stuff, no horror, so on and so on. It is only 1200 something words long so go read it, and only 900 words of actual rules with the rest being preamble and set up on the mission statement.

But yeah the CCA pretty much created the "no killing rule" for Batman while prior to that it was "no gun rule" in less than 2 years of the character's introduction.

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And thus writers wrote around these constraints especially when Batman became less sci-fi and less camp in the bronze age roughly with the 70s. That said in the 70s to 00s we see different takes on Batman some giving tragic backstories like Batman does not use guns due to his 8 year old trauma.

While other stories have Batman specifically killing supervillains in direct and indirect ways. For example in (Batman Annual #8 in 1982) Ra's Al Ghul is mad and space laser stuff. At the end of the comic Ras is getting away but Batman modified the shuttle before the final conflict and Batman literally kills him with the sun / space laser, via remote controlling the spacecraft. Let me repeat this, Batman purposefully murders Ra's for Ra's is nuts. Batman after listening to Ra's dying screams decides to turn off the radio where he is listening. Then he vents the body from the space shuttle (now dust, not a body) and Batman, Robin, and Talia go back to earth. Robin calls him out on this this and says you killed him and Batman rhetorically says "did I?" Talia is crying. When they get back on Earth Talia who was planning to marry Bruce earlier in the issue and helped betray her father tells Bruce to leave and she doesn't want to see him again.

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In sum Batman is a complicated character over 75 well now 81 years of history. Many of the different Batmans are "Not My Batman" for I use a "loose cannon" approach with Superheroes and also Myths when the stories are dozens of years old and thus there are THOUSANDS of issues.

For example do I want to think about in Greek Myth in one of the stories of Odysseus he had kids with Circe (3 of them) and one of the kids, the youngest Telemachus, wants to know where his absent dad is? That kid Telemachus thus goes Ithaca to search for his father, gets lost actually shows up to Ithaca but does not know it is Ithaca then raids that city for he is starving and in the process kills his father Odysseus. More stuff happened but the end result is Telemachus marries Odysseus first wife Penelope, while Telegonus (son of Penelope and Odysseus) who also did his own sea journey searching for his dad goes to Circe's island and marries Circe. In sum two "half-brothers" marry each other's Step-Mothers who used to be married to their dad Odysseus. So did these stories both happen? Can we merge the Illiad with the Odyssey, and the later epic story the Telegony? Well I say they are merely Loose Cannon and you can say the stories take place in alternate universes for sometimes these canon fights get creepy and weird.

Yeah that batman is awesome. He is gruff, stern, stoic, and all of that hard nosed behavior you expect from the terror that flaps in the night. But he CARES. He cares so deeply its incredible when you get to see those rare flashes. He cares for his children, every member of the bat clan. He cares for the league who are, at least the senior council members, his friends, or more family to him. He would rather that nobody ever see that as he knows it can be used against him. "Oh so you care about robin ey? I wonder what would happen if I, i dunno, beat him to death with a crowbar then blew him up?" (Not sure why such a random scenario popped into my head) And he also hates showing any vulnerability. But its there. I also liked the start of batman beyond. Where bruce retired because he picked up a gun to threaten a thug with due to his heart issues nearly getting him killed. The second he got out of there he swore never again, and stuck to it. Because he knew he was an inch from being forced to shoot someone or die himself. He hung up his suit and stopped.

And that is the batman that I like, for as you pointed out Traab even though he is mostly healthy in Justice League, he is not always healthy and he was a jerk some of the time with **** Grayson, and Terry McGinnis. Sometimes you wonder why the Bat Family bothers with him. Other times the same person actually does care when he is around people he cares about and he gives himself permission to be a better version of himself (which in turn helps other people , even the villains of the series.)

[Peelee]

Yeah that batman is awesome. He is gruff, stern, stoic, and all of that hard nosed behavior you expect from the terror that flaps in the night. But he CARES. He cares so deeply its incredible when you get to see those rare flashes. He cares for his children, every member of the bat clan. He cares for the league who are, at least the senior council members, his friends, or more family to him. He would rather that nobody ever see that as he knows it can be used against him. "Oh so you care about robin ey? I wonder what would happen if I, i dunno, beat him to death with a crowbar then blew him up?" (Not sure why such a random scenario popped into my head) And he also hates showing any vulnerability. But its there. I also liked the start of batman beyond. Where bruce retired because he picked up a gun to threaten a thug with due to his heart issues nearly getting him killed. The second he got out of there he swore never again, and stuck to it. Because he knew he was an inch from being forced to shoot someone or die himself. He hung up his suit and stopped.

I also loved everything about Batman Beyond, but i Hagerty really seen it since it aired. I sound check it out again. I bet it's still shway.

[dancrilis]

I also loved everything about Batman Beyond, but i Hagerty really seen it since it aired. I sound check it out again. I bet it's still shway.

If you haven't seen it Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker is one of the best batman movies in my opinion, and I say that despite not really thinking much of Batman Beyond in general (decent but nothing special).

[Rater202]

If you haven't seen it Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker is one of the best batman movies in my opinion, and I say that despite not really thinking much of Batman Beyond in general (decent but nothing special).

As a child of the 90s, Mark Hamill will always be my Joker, but this is the movie that cemented him as The Joker in my honest opinion.

[Ramza00]

If you haven't seen it Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker is one of the best batman movies in my opinion, and I say that despite not really thinking much of Batman Beyond in general (decent but nothing special).

Only Batman movie superior to Return of the Joker is Mask of the Phantasm. And only after these two can we talk about the awesomeness that some of the live action Batmans are

But don't take my word on it, instead remanesse with this wonderful video essay.

[Peelee]

If you haven't seen it Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker is one of the best batman movies in my opinion, and I say that despite not really thinking much of Batman Beyond in general (decent but nothing special).

Loved it, though Mask of the Phantasm and Sub Zero were also phenomenal. I'm a sucker for how they changed Mr. Freeze in TAS. Even though his name should be Dr. Freeze.

ETA: Also, on the completely opposite end of the "is killing ok" spectrum, In Bruges may well be a perfect movie, and is definitely a beautiful movie. And there is also a video essay on that which I wholly recommend, if anyone is interested.

[Ramza00]

ETA: Also, on the completely opposite end of the "is killing ok" spectrum, In Bruges may well be a perfect movie, and is definitely a beautiful movie. And there is also a video essay on that which I wholly recommend, if anyone is interested.

Come on share the video essay

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And while I am here lets me share another video link, the Mask of the Phantasm original trailer. Short, sweet, to the point, and effective.

[Peelee]

Come on share the video essay

It's titled "The Absurd Worth of Redemption". I can neither imbed it nor link to it for obvious reasons (well, obvious to anyone who's seen In Bruges).

It might be in my top 5 favorite movies, come to think of it. Hell, even that video essay is better than a lot of movies. Best analysis I've seen since Every Frame A Painting.

[Rynjin]

I wonder, can anyone tell me when it was that batman stopped killing people? Classic batman killed PLENTY of people, mooks especially. There was one comic where he basically hung a big mental aptient a bad guy had doped up on drugs with a cable from the bat plane while he flew off. His very first comic he literally punched a fat dude into a vat of acid. Another dude in a later comic threw a sword at him, batman used a door to block it, then punched the guy as he begged for mercy neck first into his own sword. In another detective comic he dodged a gunman trying to shoot him, the proceeded to break his neck by kicking him so hard in the head his neck snapped. These were all in the first year or so of his creation. A lot of the others were alternate versions so dont count, but im honestly curious to know when they established "no killing, no, not even then." as his mantra.

For the record I agree, BtAS is THE batman character for me, and the ace scene was great.

Characters that canonically don't kill often have some early installment weirdness that makes you go "huh?". This extends even into much more recent material.

Kiryu Kazuma, protagonist of the Yakuza series, is stated to have never killed anyone. This is despite sequences like firing RPGs at pursuing helicopters and kicking people off of speeding trucks, microwaving their heads, shooting them in the gut like 6 times, etc. as part of gameplay stuff.

Most put that off as gameplay/story segregation, as do I. But there IS one bit of what I would call straight up murder in an actual cutscene, not even halfway through the first game.

Spoiler: Yakuza 1/Kiwami

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My assumption is generally when a character is stated to have a "no killing" rule at any point after their first appearance...it probably wasn't intended to be a thing when the character was conceived.

Only Batman movie superior to Return of the Joker is Mask of the Phantasm. And only after these two can we talk about the awesomeness that some of the live action Batmans are

But don't take my word on it, instead remanesse with this wonderful video essay.

First: it's reminisce for future reference; one of those weird words I have definitely heard spoken more than read, to be sure.

Second: never forget that Roger Ebert held up the movie as a testament to how animation can be a legitimate storytelling artform a looong time before that stopped being a divisive opinion. It's that good.

[Traab]

And that is the batman that I like, for as you pointed out Traab even though he is mostly healthy in Justice League, he is not always healthy and he was a jerk some of the time with **** Grayson, and Terry McGinnis. Sometimes you wonder why the Bat Family bothers with him. Other times the same person actually does care when he is around people he cares about and he gives himself permission to be a better version of himself (which in turn helps other people , even the villains of the series.)
Last edited by Ramza00; Yesterday at 06:18 PM.

This is something I wanted to bring up because im not sure if its canon or fanon, but a lot of his issues with grayson and terry are a part of batmans massive guilt complex. He feels terrible for bringing his kids (and he DOES see them as his kids) into his dangerous and deadly life as a hero. So he kind of waffles between pushing them away in an attempt to save them and hiding how deeply he cares because of the earlier mentioned reasons. Intellectually he knows they chose this life and its only his training and guidance that allowed them to (mostly) survive, and that they probably would have tried to do it anyways if he shut them down and gotten killed or turned bad themselves, but emotionally he feels awful that they are a part of things like this.

[Lans]

What if it was Homelander vs George Reeves's superman?

[Bartmanhomer]

What if it was Homelander vs George Reeves's superman?

Superman still wins by default.

[Lans]

Superman still wins by default.

How so? I don't think GR superman has done much beyond break down a brick wall, tank dynamite or bend a metal rod

[Rynjin]

How so? I don't think GR superman has done much beyond break down a brick wall, tank dynamite or bend a metal rod

...And, you know, fly around the Earth counterclockwise really fast to REVERSE TIME.

[Peelee]

...And, you know, fly around the Earth counterclockwise really fast to REVERSE TIME.

Wrong Reeves.

[Bartmanhomer]

How so? I don't think GR superman has done much beyond break down a brick wall, tank dynamite or bend a metal rod

He's still Superman anyway.

[comicshorse]

What if it was Homelander vs George Reeves's superman?

Actually I think towards the end of the series they started giving him new powers Superman never had in a desperate attempt to keep people interested in a dying show

[Mystic Muse]

He's still Superman anyway.

That...doesn't actually matter.

There are some iterations of characters that are weaker than others.

There's a version of Batman that can theoretically beat Superman, and maybe even Darkseid.

But send up Christian Bale/Christopher Nolan Batman against them, and you end up with a pancake.

[Tyndmyr]

How so? I don't think GR superman has done much beyond break down a brick wall, tank dynamite or bend a metal rod

I believe that Superman is missing powers like the super speed. That's a biggie. Movement on a speed on par with Flash, as some renditions have, is pretty much an auto-win for Superman against a wild array of opponents.

The x-ray vision and super hearing doesn't really matter vs Homelander, who doesn't care a great deal about stealth, and in any case, also has them.

As for strength and toughness, I think he had literally zero superhuman opponents. So, he was definitely stronger than random bank robber #12, but...that doesn't mean much. He does fly, and his flight speed is fairly quick, but super speed never comes up, even where it'd be handy. Homelander could break the sound barrier as a small child, which exceeds anything this Superman is shown doing.

This superman has the kryptonite vulnerability, though. And Homelander is pretty good at digging up people's dirty secrets. Homelander has no such vulnerability. There's also oddities like superman losing his powers after stepping into a chamber that is too cold* or metal that is too strong for him to affect.

I'm gonna say that Homelander absolutely wrecks this version of Superman....but this is a stupidly low powered version of Superman.

*A temperature lower than absolute zero. Continuity back then was....not great.

[Bartmanhomer]

That...doesn't
There are some iterations of characters that are weaker than others.

There's a version of Batman that can theoretically beat Superman, and maybe even Darkseid.

But send up Christian Bale/Christopher Nolan Batman against them, and you end up with a pancake.

Any version of Superman is just as powerful including Batman.