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Thread: Superman Vs. Homelander
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2020-10-28, 01:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Superman Vs. Homelander
My point (such as it is a point) was more that he kicked a man into a pool of alligators - and yes he tried to save him but if the man had tried to grab his hand and failed and then been eaten I think it would be fair to say 'Batman killed that guy', and when he thought that was the case his response was not 'what have I done!' and more 'he deserved that'.
You can't "gotcha" me with a clip. TAS is among the best I've ever seen Batman consistently portrayed, but if you can dredge up a clip of him killing someone on there, I'll be the first to decry that episode. It's not going to make me change my stance. It's just going to make me dislike that rendition of Batman.
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2020-10-28, 02:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Superman Vs. Homelander
I got that, and I should have addressed it better myself. Batman saved himself. That was the single most important priority. Self-preservation is a hell of a thing to overcome even if you're not a super-genius detective ninja. He saved himself the only way he could. He then immediately, without any hesitation whatsoever, tried to save the man who has just tried to kill him.
This wasn't pushing other people out of the way to get into a lifeboat on a sinking ship. This was the only way he could possibly not die. It was a full-on you-or-me, where he wasn't the one forcing that situation. Self-defense is different. But here's the kicker: even then he still tries to save the guy. If you give Batman a "you die or he dies" scenario, Batman picks option 3: Batman lives, then tries to save the other. Binary choice be damned.
TAS did right by Batman.Last edited by Peelee; 2020-10-28 at 02:14 PM.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
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2020-10-28, 02:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Superman Vs. Homelander
Homelander would not care about the legalities... but Lex would factor that into his plans and plot his downfall while avoiding face to face confrontations.
On Batman rules, I'm not familiar with that comic. I've heard of it, but have we the internal monologue somewhere? It may be that Bats is factoring in the effect saying that may have on Lex.
Yeah, the Batman Begins deal is just rules lawyering.
Why doesn't he kill the Joker is never really a good question. Mr J's kill count isn't much higher than the rest of his rogues gallery (and is well below the likes of Ra's, maybe Bane, sometimes Ivy and Scarecrow.) The only difference is he occasionally randomly kills his own men. He's not special.
Batman tries, to the absolute best of his abilities, not to kill people, but he's aware that other people are not Batman, so if Gordon has to shoot someone in self defence by virtue of not having non lethal options, Bats won't hold it against him.
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2020-10-28, 02:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Superman Vs. Homelander
But that is healthy Batman, one with friends, equals, where he open himself up to vulnerability and support systems.
But there are other forms of Batman, with toxic Bat Family dynamics, and even less healthy Batman where he is the loner and he is more compulsive in his death drive eternal quest with Gotham, re-enacting the death of his parents except now he has power for he is costumed and 30s and not an 8 year old boy visiting the place of the other a night on the town as a child full of wonder.
Healthy Batman that you identify Peelee is him open himself up to vulnerability, allowing the stranger and fear to wash over him and he is a parent to Ace during this time of the unknown. He is literally what he needed as an 8 year old. Thus best Bruce.Stupendous Man drawn by Linklele
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2020-10-28, 03:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-10-28, 03:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Superman Vs. Homelander
As do I.
For example the scene in Justice League where Batman is in Guerrilla City and he thinks Wonder Woman has died and he is trying to save her / unbury her not sure if she is alive or dead under rubble. Then we see Diana is alive, and she notices his dirty hands which he quickly hides behind his cowl for he realizes he is vulnerable. This type of Bruce is interesting. Healthy vulnerable Batman is also the most generous, charitable, forgiving, kind, and empathizing Batman, unhealthy Batman is a person I would not like to know.Stupendous Man drawn by Linklele
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2020-10-28, 03:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Superman Vs. Homelander
I like Batman. Batman is very compassionate and empathetic.
It's time to get my Magikarp on!
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2020-10-28, 03:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-10-28, 03:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-10-28, 05:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Superman Vs. Homelander
Yeah that batman is awesome. He is gruff, stern, stoic, and all of that hard nosed behavior you expect from the terror that flaps in the night. But he CARES. He cares so deeply its incredible when you get to see those rare flashes. He cares for his children, every member of the bat clan. He cares for the league who are, at least the senior council members, his friends, or more family to him. He would rather that nobody ever see that as he knows it can be used against him. "Oh so you care about robin ey? I wonder what would happen if I, i dunno, beat him to death with a crowbar then blew him up?" (Not sure why such a random scenario popped into my head) And he also hates showing any vulnerability. But its there. I also liked the start of batman beyond. Where bruce retired because he picked up a gun to threaten a thug with due to his heart issues nearly getting him killed. The second he got out of there he swore never again, and stuck to it. Because he knew he was an inch from being forced to shoot someone or die himself. He hung up his suit and stopped.Last edited by Traab; 2020-10-28 at 05:04 PM.
"Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."
"If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."
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2020-10-28, 05:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Superman Vs. Homelander
This is complicated but let me give you the rough idea.
Batman was first introduced in the Detective Comics in 1939. He was such a popular character that he got his own spin off in 1940 (Batman Vol 1 issue 1.) Likewise there was a 2nd spin off in 1941 with World Finest Comics. At the same time Robin (**** Grayson) was almost always as old as Batman for he was introduced in Detective Comics in 1940 (so a year after), and was in Batman Vol 1 #1 in 1940, and World Finest Comics with Superman, Batman, and **** in 1941 (focusing on these 3 characters.)
When Batman is first introduced in Detective Comics he used guns and flats out murder people. Yet editors of DC behind the scenes were already reformulating the character by 1940. Batman still is murdering people with Guns in 1940 in Batman Vol 1 and by issue 4 (labeled Winter 1940 but not released until mid January 1941) Batman now sometimes uses the opponents guns against them but never shoots to kill. See editor's note.
Spoiler: Editor's Note in 1941
Note there are contradictory stories which editor decided Batman should not use Guns but after that 1941 issue we see the amount of gun use dramatically decrease.
That said Batman was still killing via other means in the 1940s like throwing people off buildings, including a time a person was literally hanged. It was a very "pulpy" time in the 1940s with grim and dark. Yet that Batman #4 issue in 1941, in a different comic of this same anthology we hear Batman tell Robin to try not to kill via using the non sharp end of the blade when fighting villains while sword fighting.
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The Silver Age Batman more or less started in 1954 and 1955 with Seduction of the Innocent where psychiatrist Fredric Wertham, was corrupting the youth in various ways such as making them gay (see famous Batman and Robin picture with them in the same bed) and making the violent and so on. Fredric Wertham even had a congressional hearing for this was the time of the Red Scare and also the other politics of the Era tied to the Baby Boom.
Thus we see two things happen with Batman.
A) Batman becomes more sci-fi and "kids friendly" with things like Batmite and so on. The style of the silver age of Batman comics is different than the darker more gritty crime fighter of the 1939 to early 1950s. Note the sales of Batman was already going down in the late 1940s and early 1950s for "pulp comics were no longer in fashion."
B) 2nd the Comic Industry decided to self-censor itself with the adoption of the Comic Code Authority, something similar to the Hay's Code.
Here is the list of the rules of the CCA with 1954 http://cbldf.org/the-comics-code-of-1954/ Note there is not a single CCA for it got revisions at later dates notably 1971 and 1989. But the 1954 code would not allow Batman to throw people off buildings and so on. The heroes must be heroic and the villains must always lose and their plans thwarted. Crime can never be fun it must be seen as unpleasant and sordid. Authority figures such as Cops, Judges, Mayors, etc should always be presented in a light that elicits respect and is not disrespectful. No gay stuff, no horror, so on and so on. It is only 1200 something words long so go read it, and only 900 words of actual rules with the rest being preamble and set up on the mission statement.
But yeah the CCA pretty much created the "no killing rule" for Batman while prior to that it was "no gun rule" in less than 2 years of the character's introduction.
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And thus writers wrote around these constraints especially when Batman became less sci-fi and less camp in the bronze age roughly with the 70s. That said in the 70s to 00s we see different takes on Batman some giving tragic backstories like Batman does not use guns due to his 8 year old trauma.
While other stories have Batman specifically killing supervillains in direct and indirect ways. For example in (Batman Annual #8 in 1982) Ra's Al Ghul is mad and space laser stuff. At the end of the comic Ras is getting away but Batman modified the shuttle before the final conflict and Batman literally kills him with the sun / space laser, via remote controlling the spacecraft. Let me repeat this, Batman purposefully murders Ra's for Ra's is nuts. Batman after listening to Ra's dying screams decides to turn off the radio where he is listening. Then he vents the body from the space shuttle (now dust, not a body) and Batman, Robin, and Talia go back to earth. Robin calls him out on this this and says you killed him and Batman rhetorically says "did I?" Talia is crying. When they get back on Earth Talia who was planning to marry Bruce earlier in the issue and helped betray her father tells Bruce to leave and she doesn't want to see him again.
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In sum Batman is a complicated character over 75 well now 81 years of history. Many of the different Batmans are "Not My Batman" for I use a "loose cannon" approach with Superheroes and also Myths when the stories are dozens of years old and thus there are THOUSANDS of issues.
For example do I want to think about in Greek Myth in one of the stories of Odysseus he had kids with Circe (3 of them) and one of the kids, the youngest Telemachus, wants to know where his absent dad is? That kid Telemachus thus goes Ithaca to search for his father, gets lost actually shows up to Ithaca but does not know it is Ithaca then raids that city for he is starving and in the process kills his father Odysseus. More stuff happened but the end result is Telemachus marries Odysseus first wife Penelope, while Telegonus (son of Penelope and Odysseus) who also did his own sea journey searching for his dad goes to Circe's island and marries Circe. In sum two "half-brothers" marry each other's Step-Mothers who used to be married to their dad Odysseus. So did these stories both happen? Can we merge the Illiad with the Odyssey, and the later epic story the Telegony? Well I say they are merely Loose Cannon and you can say the stories take place in alternate universes for sometimes these canon fights get creepy and weird.
And that is the batman that I like, for as you pointed out Traab even though he is mostly healthy in Justice League, he is not always healthy and he was a jerk some of the time with **** Grayson, and Terry McGinnis. Sometimes you wonder why the Bat Family bothers with him. Other times the same person actually does care when he is around people he cares about and he gives himself permission to be a better version of himself (which in turn helps other people , even the villains of the series.)Last edited by Ramza00; 2020-10-28 at 05:18 PM.
Stupendous Man drawn by Linklele
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2020-10-28, 06:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Superman Vs. Homelander
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2020-10-28, 07:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Superman Vs. Homelander
If you haven't seen it Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker is one of the best batman movies in my opinion, and I say that despite not really thinking much of Batman Beyond in general (decent but nothing special).
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2020-10-28, 07:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Superman Vs. Homelander
Last edited by Rater202; 2020-10-28 at 07:28 PM.
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2020-10-28, 08:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Superman Vs. Homelander
Stupendous Man drawn by Linklele
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2020-10-28, 08:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Superman Vs. Homelander
Loved it, though Mask of the Phantasm and Sub Zero were also phenomenal. I'm a sucker for how they changed Mr. Freeze in TAS. Even though his name should be Dr. Freeze.
ETA: Also, on the completely opposite end of the "is killing ok" spectrum, In Bruges may well be a perfect movie, and is definitely a beautiful movie. And there is also a video essay on that which I wholly recommend, if anyone is interested.Last edited by Peelee; 2020-10-28 at 08:42 PM.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2020-10-28, 08:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-10-28, 08:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Superman Vs. Homelander
It's titled "The Absurd Worth of Redemption". I can neither imbed it nor link to it for obvious reasons (well, obvious to anyone who's seen In Bruges).
It might be in my top 5 favorite movies, come to think of it. Hell, even that video essay is better than a lot of movies. Best analysis I've seen since Every Frame A Painting.Last edited by Peelee; 2020-10-28 at 08:57 PM.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2020-10-29, 12:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Superman Vs. Homelander
Characters that canonically don't kill often have some early installment weirdness that makes you go "huh?". This extends even into much more recent material.
Kiryu Kazuma, protagonist of the Yakuza series, is stated to have never killed anyone. This is despite sequences like firing RPGs at pursuing helicopters and kicking people off of speeding trucks, microwaving their heads, shooting them in the gut like 6 times, etc. as part of gameplay stuff.
Most put that off as gameplay/story segregation, as do I. But there IS one bit of what I would call straight up murder in an actual cutscene, not even halfway through the first game.
Spoiler: Yakuza 1/Kiwami
My assumption is generally when a character is stated to have a "no killing" rule at any point after their first appearance...it probably wasn't intended to be a thing when the character was conceived.
First: it's reminisce for future reference; one of those weird words I have definitely heard spoken more than read, to be sure.
Second: never forget that Roger Ebert held up the movie as a testament to how animation can be a legitimate storytelling artform a looong time before that stopped being a divisive opinion. It's that good.
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2020-10-29, 07:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Superman Vs. Homelander
And that is the batman that I like, for as you pointed out Traab even though he is mostly healthy in Justice League, he is not always healthy and he was a jerk some of the time with **** Grayson, and Terry McGinnis. Sometimes you wonder why the Bat Family bothers with him. Other times the same person actually does care when he is around people he cares about and he gives himself permission to be a better version of himself (which in turn helps other people , even the villains of the series.)
Last edited by Ramza00; Yesterday at 06:18 PM."Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."
"If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."
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2020-11-02, 12:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Superman Vs. Homelander
What if it was Homelander vs George Reeves's superman?
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2020-11-02, 12:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-11-02, 01:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-11-02, 02:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Superman Vs. Homelander
Last edited by Rynjin; 2020-11-02 at 02:07 AM. Reason: Added video reference.
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2020-11-02, 02:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-11-02, 06:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-11-02, 06:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Superman Vs. Homelander
All Comicshorse's posts come with the advisor : This is just my opinion any difficulties arising from implementing my ideas are your own problem
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2020-11-02, 07:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Superman Vs. Homelander
That...doesn't actually matter.
There are some iterations of characters that are weaker than others.
There's a version of Batman that can theoretically beat Superman, and maybe even Darkseid.
But send up Christian Bale/Christopher Nolan Batman against them, and you end up with a pancake.
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2020-11-02, 11:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Superman Vs. Homelander
I believe that Superman is missing powers like the super speed. That's a biggie. Movement on a speed on par with Flash, as some renditions have, is pretty much an auto-win for Superman against a wild array of opponents.
The x-ray vision and super hearing doesn't really matter vs Homelander, who doesn't care a great deal about stealth, and in any case, also has them.
As for strength and toughness, I think he had literally zero superhuman opponents. So, he was definitely stronger than random bank robber #12, but...that doesn't mean much. He does fly, and his flight speed is fairly quick, but super speed never comes up, even where it'd be handy. Homelander could break the sound barrier as a small child, which exceeds anything this Superman is shown doing.
This superman has the kryptonite vulnerability, though. And Homelander is pretty good at digging up people's dirty secrets. Homelander has no such vulnerability. There's also oddities like superman losing his powers after stepping into a chamber that is too cold* or metal that is too strong for him to affect.
I'm gonna say that Homelander absolutely wrecks this version of Superman....but this is a stupidly low powered version of Superman.
*A temperature lower than absolute zero. Continuity back then was....not great.Last edited by Tyndmyr; 2020-11-02 at 11:54 AM.
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2020-11-02, 12:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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